Interrogation of Wolfram Sievers

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From page 398-409 of Volume 20, August 8th, 1946

Judicial President Lawrence: The prosecution wants to cross-examine the witness Sievers. We will call for Wolfram Sievers.

WOLFRAM SIEVERS, a witness,: took the stand and testified as follows:

BY THE PRESIDENT:

Judicial President Lawrence: What is your name?

A. Wolfram Sievers.

Judicial President Lawrence: Will you repeat this oath after me:

I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.

(The witness repeated the oath.)

Judicial President Lawrence: You may sit down.

Cross-Examination[edit]

BY MR. ELWYN JONES:

Q. You are Wolfram Sievers and from 1935 on you were Reich manager of the Ahnenerbe (Ancestral Heritage Society), were you not?

A. I was the Reich manager of the Ahnenerbe.

Q. You recollect on the 27th June you gave evidence before the Commissioner appointed by this Tribunal?

A. Yes.

Q. I am referring to Page 1925 of the transcript of your evidence before the Commission.

Do you recollect that Dr. Pelckmann, the counsel for the SS, accounted that he was calling you to show that this Ahnenerbe did not know of the biological experiments of the group led by Dr. Rascher, performed on concentration camp inmates?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember, the record is on Page 1932 of the transcript, that when Dr. Pelckmann asked you: "Did you have any possibility of having an insight into the circumstances relating to or the planning of the methods or the carrying out of these scientific research works of the military scientific department?" you answered "No"?

A. I recall that.

Q And when I cross-examined you upon your testimony, do you recall telling the Commissioner that Himmler and Rascher were very close friends and you did not know exactly what went on? Do you remember that?

A. I said that I was informed about these matters only in general but not in particular.

Q. In my final question to you in cross-examination, I asked you:

"How many people do you estimate were murdered in connection with Rascher's and other experiments carried out under the guise of 'Nazi science?" and to that question you gave this answer:

"I cannot say because I had no knowledge of these matters."

Do you remember that on Page 1939 of the transcript?

A. Yes, indeed.

Q. Well, now, I want to see whether or not you did have knowledge of these matters.

Did you ever hear of Professor Hirt's skeleton collection?

A. That is in connection with anatomy at the University of Strassburg -

Q. I asked you did you hear about it?

A. Yes, indeed, I did hear of it.

Q. You played a very active part in the creation of that collection of skeletons, did you not?

A. I did not understand the end of the question.

Q. You played an active part in the collection of these skeletons?

A. No.

Q. I want you to look first at Document No. 116.

It is an insertion into the Tribunal's Document Book at Page 1901. It follows Page i9 in your Lordship's document book. It will be Exhibit GB 573.

Now we shall be able to test your ignorance of this collection. This is a letter from Brandt to the Main Office for the Security of the Reich, dated 6th November, 1942.

Brandt was Himmler's agent, was he not?

A. He was his personal expert.

Now, this letter:

"Subject: Organization of a skeleton collection in the Anatomical Institute of Strassburg.

The Reichsfuehrer SS has ordered that everything necessary for the research work of SS Captain (Hauptsturmfuehrer) Professor Dr. Hirt, who is at the same time director of a branch of the Institute for Scientific Researches for Specific Purposes in the Office Ahnenerbe, should be placed art his disposal. By order of the Reichsfuehrer SS, I therefore request you to make the organization of the planned skeleton collection possible. The SS Lt.-Col. (Obersturmbannfuehrer) Sievers will contact you for details."

Now, that Sievers is you, is it not?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you contacted for details?

A. Here we are concerned with the building up of a department of anatomy at the University of Strassburg which had been newly taken over, and this was a matter of reconstruction of the so-called anatomical museum, something quite customary with all anatomical departments in universities everywhere.

Q. This was just a piece of academic research, was it?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were you going to get the skeletons from?

A. Particulars were to be handled by Professor Hirt -

Q. Now just answer my question, witness, because you know perfectly well the answer to it.

Where were you going to get those skeletons from?

A. They were to be put at our disposal from Auschwitz.

Q. Now, I want you to look at a letter which you sent to Brandt, in furtherance of Brandt's communication containing suggestions as to where those skeletons should come from.

It is Document No. 085, which will be Exhibit GB 574. It is at Page 11 of the document book, my Lord. It is at Pages 14 and 15 of the German Document Book.

Now, that is a letter headed "The Ahnenerbe," dated 9th February, 1942, marked "Secret." It is addressed to Brandt, Himmler's adjutant. It is your letter, witness, is it not, it is your signature at the bottom of it? A. Yes.

Q. I will read it out.

"Dear Comrade Brandt:

Professor Dr. Hirt's report, which you requested in your letter of 29th December, 1941, is submitted in the enclosure. I was not able to send it to you before because Professor Hirt was taken seriously ill."

Then there follow details of his illness.

"Because of this, Professor Hirt was merely able to write a preliminary report which, however, I should like to submit to you. The report concerns:

1. His research with the microscope on living organs; the discovery. of a new method of examination and the construction of a new research microscope.

2. His proposal for securing skulls of Jewish-Bolshevik commissars."

Then there is your signature and you forwarded that letter and Professor Hirt's report and his suggestions, and this is Hirt's report:

[Page 401]

"Subject: Securing of skulls of Jewish-Bolshevik commissars for the purpose of scientific research at the Reich University, Strassburg.

We have a nearly complete collection of skulls of all races and peoples at our disposal. Of the Jewish race, however, only very few specimens of skulls are available, with the result that it is impossible to arrive at precise conclusions from examining them. The war in the east now presents us with the opportunity to overcome this deficiency. By procuring the skulls of the Jewish- Bolshevik commissars, who represent the prototype of the repulsive but characteristic subhuman, we have the chance now to compile good, scientific documents.

The best practical method for obtaining and collecting this skull material could be handled by directing the Wehrmacht to turn over alive all captured Jewish- Bolshevik commissars to the Field Police. They, in turn, are to be given special directives to inform a certain office at regular intervals of the numbers and place of detention of these captured Jews and to give them close attention and care until a special delegate arrives. This special delegate, who will be in charge of securing the material (a junior physician of the Wehrmacht or even the Field Police or a student of medicine equipped with a motor car and driver), will be required to take a previously established series of photographs, make anthropological measurements and, in addition, determine as far as possible other personal data of the prisoners.

Following the subsequently induced death of the Jew, whose head should not be damaged, the physician will separate the head from the body and will forward it to its proper point of destination in an hermetically sealed tin can, especially made for this purpose and filled with a conserving fluid. Having arrived at the laboratory, the comparison tests and anatomical research on the skull, as well as determination of the race membership and of pathological features of the skull form, the form and size of the brain, etc., can proceed by means of photos, measurements and other data supplied on the head, and the skull itself."

That was the report which you forwarded to Brandt?

A. Yes, that was the report of Professor Hirt.

Q. How did the collection of these skeletons from the living proceed?

A. I cannot give you the exact details. In earlier interrogations I pointed out that Professor Hirt would have to be asked himself about this matter.

Q. Now, witness, I want to give you another opportunity of telling the truth.

Are you saying to this Tribunal that you do not know what happened with regard to the progress of that collection of skulls and skeletons?

A. That may be seen from the report itself. Persons were then put at our disposal for this task by order of Himmler.

Q. Who put the actions into operation; did you have anything to do with it, with the collection of the bodies?

A. No, nothing at all, and I do not know either in what way the whole thing started, for the direct correspondence and conferences which had taken place previously between Himmler and Hirt are things I know nothing about.

Q. Well, now, witness, I have given you an opportunity of protecting yourself from perjury. You have not taken it. Look at the next document, No. 86, which is on Page 13 of the document book. It will be Exhibit GB 575. That is another of your letters. It is another letter of yours, again to Himmler's adjutant. It is marked "Secret." It is dated 2nd November, 1942. Page 13 of your document book, my Lord. "Dear Comrade Brandt

"As you know, the Reichsfuehrer SS has directed that SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt be supplied with everything needed for his experiments. For certain anthropological experiments - I have already reported to the Reichsfuehrer SS on them -150 skeletons of prisoners of Jews are required, which are to be supplied by the KL Auschwitz. The only thing that remains to be done is that the RSHA receive an official directive from the Reichsfuehrer SS. This, however, can also be given by you, acting for the Reichsfuehrer SS."

You had already been discussing this with Himmler, witness, had you not? You were his agent for collecting these living men to turn them into skeletons?

A. That does not apply in this form. The entire matter covered such a long period of time that as I was concerned only with particulars, I am not able to reconstruct the entire connection on the spur of the moment.

Q. I am sure you are not in a hurry to reconstruct them, as I am sure you could do. For the second time in regard to this matter you have taken an oath, arid I want you to give some indication that you know what an oath means. You are a man of education.

Look at the next document, Number 089, to refresh your memory as to how distant you were from this matter.

It becomes Exhibit GB 576.

Judicial President Lawrence: It came through 089. Do you mean 089?

MR. ELWYN JONES: Nought-eight-nine, Page 16 of your Lordship's document book.

BY MR. ELWYN JONES:

Q. That is a letter from Brandt to the RSHA dated 6th November, 1911; marked "Secret." It is for the attention of SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann; of the RSHA. Reference is "Establishment of a collection of skeletons at the Anatomical Institute at Strassburg."

A. Yes.

"The Reichsfuehrer SS has issued a directive to the effect that SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt, who is the director of the Anatomic Institute at Strassburg and the head of a department of the Institute for Military Science Research in the Ahnenerbe Society, be furnished with everything he needs for his research work. By order of the Reichsfuehrer SS, therefore, I ask you to be of assistance in materialising the planned collection. SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers will get in touch with you to discuss the details."

Do you still say you know nothing of the details of this matter?

A. I did not say that, you know. Here we are concerned with the entire historical development of this matter, and in that connection I just cannot say when it started, for it can be traced back directly to conversations between Himmler and Hirt, which took place before Hirt became Director of Anatomy at Strassburg University. In that capacity, he had the opportunity and received the task of setting up a modern anatomical department supplied with the necessary modern scientific facilities and collections. Thereupon Hirt, in view of his previous conversations with Himmler, made the application as may be seen from the report. Then I received the order to help Hirt in this task assigned to him by Himmler. I do not know whether Himmler himself -

Q. Just a moment, witness. How many human beings were killed to create this collection of skeletons?

A. One hundred and fifty people are mentioned in this report.

Q. That was all you assisted in murdering, was it?

A. I had nothing to do with the murdering of these people. I simply carried through the function of a postman.

Q. You were the post office, another of these distinguished Nazi post offices were you?

A. If you wish to refer, as I gather from your question, to my interrogation before the Commission, I must point out that in the interrogation before the Commission only the group Rascher was under discussion.

Q. I asked you quite clearly when I cross-examined you before the Commission - my fire question is on the record at Page 1939 of the transcript - "How many people do you estimate were murdered in connection with the, Rascher and other experiments carried out under the guise of Nazi science?" and you told me, "I cannot say, because I had no knowledge of these matters, you know." Fortunately, there are records available of what you said.

Now, just turn to the next document, Number -

A. Even today I cannot fix the dates, and I do not know the exact number of persons used by Rascher for experiment. I cannot tell you that there were a certain number, if I do not know.

Q. You swore to the Commissioner that you had no knowledge of these matters. Turn to Document 087, so that your memory may be refreshed.

That will be Exhibit GB 577. It is Page 14 of your Lordship's document book.

This is another of your letters. It is headed "Ahnenerbe Society, Institute for Military Scientific Research." You were the director of that institute, were you not?

A. Yes. I was the Reich business manager.

Q. Yes. This is dated 21st June, 1943. It is marked "Top Secret," to the RSHA Department IV B 4, for the attention of SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann.

"Subject: Establishment of a Collection of Skeletons.

Referring to your letter of 25th September, 1942, and the personal conversations which have since taken place on this subject, I wish to inform you that our associate, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Hager, who was in charge of the above special project, broke off his experiments in the KL Auschwitz on 15th June, 1943, because of the existing danger of epidemics.

Altogether 115 persons were experimented on."

Let me just pause there for a moment. What form of experiments were going on on these human beings with a view to the collection of skeletons? What sort of experiments were they, witness?

A. Anthropological measurements.

Q. Before they were murdered, they were anthropologically measured? That was all there was to it, was it?

A. And casts were taken.

Q. It does not take very long to make an anthropological measurement or to take a cast, you know, witness. There were some other experiments than measurements and casts carried out on these unfortunate victims of your science, were there not?

A. I am not familiar with this type of work in Auschwitz. I know only that anthropological measurements were taken, but I do not know how long these measurements took.

Q. I will continue your letter now, which makes it quite clear that there must have been something far more sinister than anthropological measurements.

"Altogether 115 persons were experimented on. Seventy- nine were Jews; thirty were Jewesses, two were Poles and four were Asiatics. At the present time these prisoners are segregated by sex and are under quarantine in two hospital buildings of KL Auschwitz.

For the further experimentation on these selected prisoners it will be necessary to have them transferred to the KL Natzweiler. This transfer should be made as speedily as possible because of the existing danger of an epidemic at Auschwitz. A list of the selected people is attached.

We request that the necessary directives be issued. Since this transfer of prisoners presents a certain amount of danger of spreading the epidemic to Natzweiler, we request that immune and clean prisoner clothing for eighty men and thirty women be sent from Natzweiler to Auschwitz immediately. At the same time lodgings should be prepared for the women at Natzweiler in the near future."

That is your letter.

If your only interest in these unfortunate people was their anthropological measurements and the securing of their frail bones for skeletons, why did you not kill them straight away? You must have made experiments on them, the results of which you wanted to discover, did you not?

A. No, I know nothing whatever of experiments, and such experiments were not carried on.

Q. What happened to this collection of skeletons? Where was it assembled?

A. It was taken to Natzweiler, and the further treatment was in the hands of Professor Hirt.

Q. After SS Professor Hirt and the other SS men had murdered these people what happened to their bodies? Where were they sent?

A. I assume that they were taken to the Anatomical Department at Strassburg.

Q. Have you any doubt in your mind about that, witness? You seem to be hesitant about admitting it. Have you any doubt?

A. Well, I have seen no reports about that and did not receive any.

Q. Did you have anything to do with the disposal of those skeletons and those bodies ultimately? Did you have anything to do with the ultimate disposal of those bodies? I appreciate your difficulty in answering the question.

A. No. That was in the hands of Professor Hirt. I was not at Strassburg or Natzweiler in this connection at all.

Q. Did you make any suggestion as to what should happen to the collection at any time?

A. It was much later when the questions concerning the occupation of Strassburg and where the collection was to be deposited arose.

Q. What did you do then?

A. I believe there was a conference which took place - I cannot exactly tell you with whom it was - to obtain a decision on the part of Himmler as to where the collection was to be housed.

Q. Were you present at that conference?

A. I did not talk with Himmler about that matter then.

Q. Did you make any suggestion as to what should happen and what should be done with the human bodies that you had assembled at Strassburg? Did you have any suggestions to make?

A. I cannot say any more. I no longer remember.

Q. Just try to recollect, will you? I am sure you know. It was 1944. It is not very long ago. I am sure it must be very vivid in your memory.

A. I am sorry; I cannot give you an exact answer because I do not remember.

Q. Witness, when the Allied Armies were approaching Strassburg and the day of reckoning was near, what suggestion did you make with regard to these bodies in Strassburg? Tell the Tribunal.

A. I said that I asked Himmler to make a decision as to what was to become of this collection. This was an affair which originated from conversations and ideas between Himmler and Hirt, and I was drawn into it because of the administrative and technical dispatch of the matter; and therefore Himmler alone could decide what was to be done.

Q. I have again given you an opportunity to protect yourself from perjury. Look at Document No. 088 at Page 15; in your Lordship's document book it will be Exhibit GB 578. This is another of the letters from your personal staff to Brandt, Himmler's adjutant; and it is addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS Personal Staff Department A; and that is the Ahnenerbe. It was dated 5th September, 1944. It is marked "Top Secret." The Allied Armies by then were advancing towards Strassburg, were they not?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. The subject is "Collection of Jewish Skeletons."

"According to the proposal of 9th February, 1942, and your approval of 23rd February, 1942, Professor Dr. Hirt has assembled the skeleton collection which was previously non-existent. Because of the vast amount of scientific research connected therewith, the job of reducing the corpses to skeletons has not yet been completed. Since it requires some time for eighty corpses, Hirt requests directives as to what should be done with the collection stored in the morgue of the Anatomical Institute in case Strassburg should be endangered.

The collection can be stripped of the flesh and thereby rendered unidentifiable. This, however, would mean that at least part of the whole work had been done for nothing and that this collection, the only one of its kind, would be lost to science, since it would be impossible to make plaster casts afterwards. The skeleton collection as such is inconspicuous. The flesh parts could be declared as having been left by the French at the time we took over the Anatomical Institute and would be turned over for cremating. Please advise me which of the following three proposals is to be carried out:

1. The collection as a whole is to be preserved.

2. The collection is to be dissolved in part.

3. The collection is to be completely dissolved."

Why were you wanting to de-flesh the bodies, witness?

A. In this connection I must say that this letter reached me as an inquiry from Professor Hirt and was further transmitted in this teletype letter. As I said previously for this reason I could not exactly remember it for as a layman the entire manner of treatment was totally unknown to me.

Q. Why were you suggesting that the blame should be passed on to the French? You knew there was murder in connection with this collection, did you not? You knew it perfectly well, witness.

A. I just said that I transmitted an inquiry from Professor Hirt; and that explains that I could not put an inquiry of my own in this form, for I as a layman could hake no opinion in this matter. I stated that this was an inquiry by Hirt which was transmitted by me.

Q. Were you able to carry out the suggestion of the de- fleshing of these bodies?

A. I cannot tell you anything about that for I cannot quite imagine how it was done.

Q. Happily, again there is a document which indicates the whole story. Just look at it because it is clear that you have no intention of telling the truth. Document No. 091, Exhibit GB 579. There are two following notes from Himmler's file. The first note, signed by SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Berg:

"On 12th October, 1944, I had a telephone conversation with SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers and asked him if the Strassburg skeleton collection had been completely dissolved as directed by SS Standartenfuehrer Baumert. SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers could not advise me on that matter since he had not as yet heard anything further from Professor Hirt. I told him that in case the dissolution had not yet been carried out, a certain part of the collection should be preserved. However, guarantee should be given that a complete dissolution could be made in time in case Strassburg should be in danger. SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers promised me that he would find out about it and let me know."

And then the next entry on 26th October, 1944, a note for Dr. Brandt:

"During his visit at the Operational HQ on 21st October, 1944, SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers told me that the collection in Strassburg had been completely dissolved in the meantime in conformance with the directive given him at the time. He is of the opinion that this arrangement is for the best in view of the whole situation."

A. The authenticity of my testimony can be seen from the remarks of the Hauptsturmfuehrer Berg, for he says "Standartenfuehrer Sievers could not advise me on that matter since he had not as yet heard anything further from Professor Hirt." So in every respect I was always dependent upon the statements, reports and proposals of Dr. Hirt. My own attitude in these matters did not play any role whatsoever. As I have already mentioned in the interrogations before the Commission, I was not responsible for any action taken nor could I prevent any action.

Q. You were the business manager in this scientific experiment in murder, were you not? That was your function? You were a vital cog in the machine of this "Ahnenerbe"?

A. It was by no means an essential part, as may be seen from the Commission findings. "Ahnenerbe" comprised more than fifty branches and had great research projects on a scientific basis in accord with its original intentions. It occupied itself with these projects so exclusively that these matters which, I think, were very unfortunately brought into relationship with it by Himmler, hardly played any part in it at all. In vain did I try to prevent this connection.

Q. You go as far as to admit that certain unfortunate matters did arise in connection with the work of the "Ahnenerbe," do you?

A. I never disputed that in the past.

Q. What was your connection with the experiments on human beings as regards poison gas or poisoned chemical "Lost," experiments on counter-agents for wounds caused by your preparation, "Lost"?

A. Professor Hirt developed a therapeutic treatment for the curing of "Lost" injuries. In the development of this method of therapy, he experimented on himself, an experiment which damaged his health, as can be seen from the documents submitted here now.

Q. Did he experiment on anyone other than himself?

A. Himmler was interested in these experiments and was quite excited when he heard that Hirt had done them on his own person; and in this connection he referred to the Fuehrer decree that in the case of such experiments volunteer from inmates or criminals who had been sentenced to death should be chosen. Thereupon Hirt, and only at Himmler's request, conducted controlled experiments on twenty persons, that is, when he had already ascertained from his own experiments that lasting injury would not occur. Himmler further pointed out, and this was his first contact with Hirt in the work, that it was much more important that animals should be procured for the experiments, for, at the outbreak of war the supply of these had diminished to such an extent that the necessary scientific work could no longer be carried out.

Q. Just a moment, witness. Can you not answer my questions without going into these lengthy speeches? Did you substitute human beings for animals for the purpose of these experiments?

A. You mean in connection with Professor Hirt?

Q. Certainly.

A. Yes, I just said that after the experiments on his own person he experimented on twenty people who reported voluntarily for this purpose.

Q. Did you write to Brandt in connection with the Lost" experiments, explaining certain difficulties that you were meeting with at the Natzweiler concentration camp?

A. I do not have the document before me.

Q. Do not worry yourself. Just try to answer my question. Do not worry whether you have the document before you. I appreciate it will be embarrassing if it is found. Just answer my question. Did you write to Brandt in connection with these "Lost" experiments, describing difficulties you were meeting with concentration camp?

A. I do not remember in detail what difficulties were involved. It may be that I wrote that.

Q. Try to recollect what you wrote about in connection with these "Lost" experiments, will you?

A. Well, I can only mention now, as before, that these things came to me on the basis of notes and reports from Hirt and that I transmitted these matters without being able to recall them in detail, because these were single incidents among the vast amount of my work, so that I could no longer remember after this length of time.

Q. I appreciate the mass of work you were involved in. I have four or five other experiments in murder to draw your attention to. But just look at Document No. 092, Page 19 of your Lordship's document book, GB 58. That is a letter from Brandt to you. It is addressed to you, SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers, the Ahnenerbe Society, dated 3rd December, 1942. "I have your note of 3rd November, 1942, again in front of me today. At the time I could only speak to SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl very briefly. If I remember correctly, he even sent me a letter informing me that he would have the deficiencies which you described taken care of, but I did not have time to enumerate them in detail. I had just received your letter the same morning on which I went to see SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. Therefore, it was impossible for me to read it beforehand. I only remembered what you had told me during our last conversation. If it should be necessary for me to take this matter up again, will you please let me know." Now, what were those deficiencies which you had described in your note to Pohl? Just try to remember them.

A. I cannot tell you what was involved in particular here. Please show me the note.

Q. Can you not recollect at all what the difficulty was? Was it connected with the payment for the prisoners to be experimented on?

A. I do not recall that.

Q. In any event, these experiments in connection with the "Lost" went on as far as April, 1944, did they not?

A. I cannot tell you that from memory.

Q. Try to recollect. Did they not go on until April, 1944? Just look at Document No. 015. You are being totally uncooperative. That would be Exhibit GB 581. That is another of your letters to the Reichsfuehrer SS. On Page 6 of your document book, my Lord. To the Reichsfuehrer SS Personal Staff: Department A. It is dated 11th April, 1944. Top secret. It is from you to Brandt. Subject: Fuehrer's order of 1st March, 1944.

"Dear Comrade Brandt. In accordance with orders, I got in touch with SS Brigadefuehrer Professor Dr. Brandt and informed him in Beelitz on 31st March about the research work conducted by SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt. On this occasion I handed to him the plan for the treatment of L.-injuries ..." That is "Lost" injuries, is it not, witness?

A. Yes.

Q. "... worked out by Professor Hirt, a copy of which I enclose for you for presentation to the Reichsfuehrer SS, if the occasion should arise. Professor Brandt tells me that he will be in Strassburg in the first week in April, and that he intends to discuss details with Professor Hirt then."

Now, you see that those experiments on human beings with this poison "Lost" went on right through to 1944, did they not?

A. No, it is not true that way. This letter refers to the following: Professor Brandt was made General Commissar for questions pertaining to fighting material. I received a copy of this report appointing him, with instructions that now, since his appointment had taken place, I should get Hirt to talk with Brandt. Hirt told me that he could not travel to Mr. Brandt at Beelitz just for that. Therefore, at the request of Hirt, I went to see Brandt.

All right, witness. I want you to turn now to another aspect of your work, the Rascher experiments. You remember telling me that you had no insight into the Rascher experiments?

A. I stated that I had a general insight, but knew nothing of particulars.

Q. I want you to look now at your diary for the year 1944, the Ahnenerbe diary, Document 3546-PS. It has already been marked Exhibit GB 551. Your Lordship will find a few extracts from it at Page 29 of the document book. Witness, I have made, certain extracts from your diary, and it might be convenient for you to follow those extracts, and if you want to check them against your own diary, you will be able to do so. They show how in that year you were intimately connected with Rascher and all these other murderous activities. The first entry is for the 6th January, 1830 hours. SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher. Paragraph (c) Letter from RFSS to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl about assistance for scientific research work. Rooms for carrying through of freezing experiments. They were at Dachau, were they not?

A. Yes, they were to be carried through, but as I have already said in the Commission interrogations, this was not done. These are notes about a conversation with Rascher in which he was reporting on these matters.

Q. Witness, are you saying that the freezing experiments at Dachau were not carried through?

A. Rascher told me that he would not be able to carry through these experiments, that they would have to be carried through in a locality requiring constant extreme temperatures, and so these experiments did not take place.

Q. But you actually saw some of these experiments yourself being carried out, did you not, in Dachau? You were in Dachau from time to time?

A. I am afraid that there is some confusion here between the freezing experiments by the Luftwaffe and the freezing experiments which were to be carried out later on in connection with the extreme cold in the East. Here in the year 1944 we are concerned with the experiments in freezing

Q. Which are the freezing experiments that you used to watch?

A. I know only the freezing experiments carried on under the Luftwaffe.

Q. Did you see any of them being carried on?

A. I had the order to accompany Professor Hirt, who, together with Rascher, was to work on this problem and to arrive at a solution. I was present at one of those experiments.

Q. Now we will go to Document 3546-PS, a little further. I have selected some random entries from it to show your close association with this matter. "Twenty-third January, 1130 hours, Lecture to RFSS together with Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Brandt. (1) We shall receive the reports of Professor Schilling." Now, Professor Schilling is the man who has been sentenced to death for his malaria experiments at Dachau, is he not?

A. Yes.

Q. He was also part of your team of scientists, was he not?'

A. We had nothing, to do with Schilling at this lecture

Q. You only received his reports, that was all; was it?

A. That was the first time that the work of Schilling was mentioned to me at all. And Himmler explained at this meeting that Schilling had arrived at results on immunisation which attracted attention. This report was to be given to us so that the Entomology Institute could take cognizance of the things that Dr. Mar had done in malaria experiments with the anopheles mosquito.

Q., We will go on to the next entry in the diary, the 28th of January. Your own diary has a daily entry of all the details, but here is another extract: "Co-operation with Institute R, Dachau." That is Rascher's institute at Dachau, is it not?

A. Yes.

Q. Then the 29th of January, "With Hauptsturmfuehrer Rascher and Dr. Pacholegg to Dahlem." Who was Dr. Pacholegg?

A. Dr. Pacholegg was an inmate whom Rascher was using to work with him.

Q. You know him quite well yourself, I take it?

A. I saw him perhaps two or three times.

Q. He was present at some of the experiments that you watched, was he not?

A. They concerned work on a styptic preparation, Polygal -

Q. Just answer my question. Dr. Pacholegg was present at some of the experiments which you watched, was he not?

A. He was a co-worker of Rascher's. Whether he was there all the time, I do not know.

Q. If you refuse to answer my question I shall not put it again. We will continue further in your diary. Second February, CA-Work experiments, First pictures of living cancer cells. 21. Protectional vaccination for spotted fever by Professor Haagen. The protectional vaccination for spotted fever in Natzweiler goes on with good results.

Your Lordship, I have about half an hour of cross- examination.

Judicial President Lawrence: We will adjourn now.

(The Tribunal adjourned until 9th August, 1946, at 1000 hours.)