Talk:A Manifesto from the Provisional Government of Macedonia - 1881

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Delete article until further proof provided[edit]

There is no trace of this document at the, Central State Archives of the October Revolution and Socialist Construction in Moscow.unsigned comment by 212.85.13.113 (talk) 02:07, 24 January 2008.Politis 12:20, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have asked the contributor to reply: User_talk:GStojanov#authenticity_query. If there is no response within a week, you may request deletion by adding "{{delete}}" at the page; do not blank the page. John Vandenberg (chat) 21:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that would be most useful. Politis 12:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

This document was found in the book "Documents on the struggle of the Macedonian people for independence and a nation-state" - volume one, page 291. The book is published by the Faculty of Philosophy and History - University of "Cyril and Methodius" - Skopje - 1985. The Responsible editor for this edition is Hristo Andonov - Poljanski. The book provides a very pricese reference as to where the article was found: Section Count Ignatiev, No 730, Description No 1, ed. hr. 79.
I don't have access to the Archive in Moscow, so I can't double check it myself. Can we engage some of the russian wikipedians to double-check the Archives in Moscow? --GStojanov 00:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
The book checks out. Are you able to scan page 291 of that book? John Vandenberg (chat) 11:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Sure. Here is the front page Image:FrontPage_Macedonia_Documents.jpg.
And the page 291 (start of the article): Image:Page_291_Macedonia_Documents.jpg.
And the page 292 (end of the article): Image:Page_292_Macedonia_Documents.jpg.--GStojanov 13:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. John Vandenberg (chat) 13:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for going through the trouble. I really appreciate that. I still doubt whether there is or ever was an original document; the language and the imagery are very uncharacteristic of the period (1881). No offence to the editor of the book, but my feeling is that it may have been forged some time after WWII, at a time when the intelligentsia in Skopje were hardly answerable to the intenational academic community. Perhaps I am wrong, but as a historian I need to be fully convinced that the originals actually exist and that there is an acountable and bona fide reference to them. Politis 16:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You are welcome Politis. I understand that you might not be familiar with this document. There are several documents of that time 1878-1892 where many prominent Macedonians were trying to establish a Christian government in the still Ottoman occupied Macedonia, using the article 23 from the Berlin Accord from 1878. They were sending declarations, proposals and petitions to the Great Powers of that time, and many of these documents are preserved in the diplomatic archives. I'll try to upload some more documents from that set, as the time permits. --GStojanov 17:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

That's great. 1/ Where those Macedonians the inhabitants of the region, i.e. Slavs, Greeks, Bulgarians and other Christians? 2/Where can we find copies of the originals? Presumably they were written in Russian or Bulgarian? You can always contact me through my email provided in my user politis page. Thanks. Politis 16:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Politis, if you are asking me about the President Vasil Chomo and Secretary Nikola Trajkov, signatories of this document, I would guess they were Macedonians. As far as the location where the original is kept, the editor of the book provided a very precise reference. --GStojanov 19:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I have deleted the two page scans, as they are covered by copyright and are no longer required. The title page has been tagged with {{PD-ineligible}} and flagged as suitable to be copied to Commons. John Vandenberg (chat) 02:36, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

1985 copyright[edit]

The footnotes from the 1985 book are certainly under copyright and need to be removed. The tranlation of the English text itself is also possibly copyrighted. Is there any information on who made this translation?--BirgitteSB 19:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

BrigitteSB, this book is simply a collection of documents, with minimal footnotes, mainly to document the source and location of the original. I'm pretty sure there is no copyright limitation for citations. As far as the translators, I'll double check ASAP and I'll post his/her name, as well as if there are any copyright limitations. --GStojanov 21:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I am certain the text of the footnotes will be copyrighted. This doesn't mean you cannot summarize the same information with a different wording (I would prefer to see this under the notes parameter). However a verbatim copy of the footnotes is going to be a copyright violation. Thanks for looking into the translator.--BirgitteSB 22:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
BrigitteSB, I summarized the footnotes, and placed them under the notes parameter. The translator is Igor Korzhenski. There is no copyright in the book for the translation. If you still have concerns though (although this is a purely "technical" traslation of no literary value) I can trace down the book in original, and do another translation myself, as a wikisoure translataion. Thank you.--GStojanov 13:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing the footnotes. All translations have copyright attached to them, no matter how technical. Copyright is pretty much automatic these days, with even registering or claiming it. So assuming Igor Korzhenski translated this recently rather than around the turn of the century we will need to get a new free translation. This is not an unusual case. If want to check out a similar situation I helped with in the past, you can see that it takes time verify things and meet the copyright policy requirements. However there is no reason why it won't be worked out in the end. Even if the Kozenhenski translation has fallen into the public domain, a scan of the text in the original language would be nice to have considering texts on this topic will always have people questioning them. And the more information we have to answer those questions the smoother it will go. If you need help figuring out if Kozenhenski's work is copyrighted or not, we will need to know where and when the translation was first published and Kozenhenski's date of death.--BirgitteSB 18:24, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Korzhenski is not dead, as far as I know. I may be able to get a copyright permission from him for the translation. Alternatively I can get the Macedonian edition and re-translate it as a wikisource translation. --GStojanov 20:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
That would be fantastic :) Sherurcij Collaboration of the Week: Portal:Branch Davidians 21:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Deleting this article[edit]

Contact has been made regarding the following reference given by the text:

"Central State Archives of the October Revolution and Socialist Construction in Moscow (Section Count Ignatiev, No 730, Description No 1, ed. hr. 79), Ljuben Lape, Odbrani tekstovi za istorijata na makedonskiot narod II del Skopje 1976 str. 256-258."

The document has not been located. If no further proof can be forwarded for its existence in the above location, it will be deleted. Perhaps user GStojanov can contact me personally over the issue or explain himself. Thank you for your kind attention. Politis 16:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it is a bit too early to call for deletion, as the best person to talk to is the author, and GStojanov is trying to do that.
As this may not happen immediately, we could add a note on the page to say "The authenticity of this page is disputed; see the talk page for details".
Politis has email enabled, so the user can be privately contacted by clicking here: Special:Emailuser/Politis.
John Vandenberg (chat) 01:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your constructive approach, I agree with it and look forward to the results. Also, good luck to GStojanov. Politis 12:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I have tagged the page with {{Authenticity}}. John Vandenberg (chat) 14:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe we clarified the source of the text (please refere to the first paragraph of this discussion page, and remove the Authenticity tag). I'm still working to obtain a permission from the original translator (Mr. Korzhenski), but if he does not respond in the next few days, I'll wiki translate this article myself. --GStojanov 04:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I dont think we have clarified the authenticity of the original document.
The source of the English text is this work? Do you have a digital copy of the original that we can use to verify that the original is authentic? John Vandenberg (chat) 05:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Two academic institutions backed this edition (both the Macedonian and the English translation): The Faculty of Philosophy, Department of History and the Institute for National History. If user Politis wants to challenge the authenticity of this document, he/she will need to provide some evidence that this document is not authentic. I agree that it would be nice to have a digital copy of the original document, and I will try to obtain one from the Institute. --GStojanov 13:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I do not mean to be unreasonable and I am greatful to GStojanov whose efforts are much appreciated. I have now found and studied the books (volumes one and two) in both languages, and would suggest that they contain at least two more documents whose style and origin are doubtful. I am also looking into the matter. Good luck GS and thank you for your effort. Politis 23:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad that you were able to find the books. There are more than two quite intriguing documents in them. I would not exactly label them as doubtful, but they certainly are intriguing. Books were published more than 20 years ago, and I haven't found any scientific critique regarding their content or presentation. I doubt they were overlooked, since the subject is far from obscure. In the meantime I collected some more information about this Manifesto and the Provisional government of Macedonia, and I'll try to present it in a separate section in this talk page, and on the main page too. --GStojanov 02:46, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I think that to successfuly challenge this text as it was published, critique of either this book, it's publisher, or it's author will have to presented that is published as well. I can't imagine an original investigation finding this to be a fraud to be convincing. Being published carries some weight and it needs to be discredited rather than simply doubted.--BirgitteSB 12:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • This is going to need to blanked as a copyvio very soon if we do not get a new license release on this translation. If you need help getting a new translation produced, please let us know how to access the original document and we can all work our contacts to help with a GDFL translation. If you need more time and this does get blanked or deleted, we can always bring it back in the future when you get everything together.--BirgitteSB 02:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Britte, I'll work on the translation tonight. Thank you for your patience. --GStojanov 19:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Done. --GStojanov 19:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much for taking care of this!--BirgitteSB 01:46, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Historic Background[edit]

I added a section with a brief historic background of this Manifesto. It may be interesting for the user Politis to note that one of the main participants in the Macedonian National Assembly (1880 May 21-June 2) was Leonidas Vulgarakis, and that this movement, according to the Bulgarian Partiarch Kiril, was supported by the Greek government of that time. --GStojanov 20:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

That section is not approriate for Wikisource. The text should be presented on it's own and that sort of information belongs in a Wikipedia article rather than here. You can always link to a WP article from here that contains background info. Perhaps creating w:National Assembly of Macedonia (1880) would be a good article for the background you have researched.--BirgitteSB 12:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I updated the page and added two articles in Wikipedia w:National Assembly of Macedonia (1880) and w:Provisional Government of Macedonia (1880). --GStojanov 20:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

original Macedonian text[edit]

It would be good if we can have the original text placed on the Macedonian Wikisource project. John Vandenberg (chat) 03:43, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Excellent idea. Let me work on this. --GStojanov 20:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Done. I added the text on the Macedonian Wikisource and added a link on the article page. The text of the Manifesto in Macedonian.
Lovely. I've linked the two; now we can see them side-by-side. John Vandenberg (chat) 09:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Wow. I'm impressed. I didn't know you can do that. It will definitely help me to profread the english translation. Thank you a bunch. --GStojanov 12:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Question remains, source not located[edit]

The original source for this document is indicated as: Central State Archives of the October Revolution and Socialist Construction in Moscow (Section Count Ignatiev, No 730, Description No 1, ed. hr. 79), Ljuben Lape, Odbrani tekstovi za istorijata na makedonskiot narod II del Skopje 1976 str. 256-258.

I contacted these archives, I gave them the full references and asked them to locate the document. They could not find it. Their answer to me was: "На Ваш запрос относительно информации по македонской народности, а именно текста некоего Любена Лейпа сообщаем, что данной информацией Главное архивное управление города Москвы не располагает." Translated, it means, "To your demand relative to information on the Macedonian national character, namely the text of a certain Lyuben Lape, we report that by this information the main Archives Administration of city Moscow does not have it [my emphasis]".

Conclusion. As things stand, the source given does not exist, therefore, there are currently reasonable grounds to believe this document was invented after WWII. Further information welcome. Politis 18:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I wish that you had been able to locate the original. However negative answers are not really conclusive. Have you found any published accounts contradicting the book this was sourced from? Or anything to discredit the author or publisher of that book?--BirgitteSB 03:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)--BirgitteSB 03:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I think what you mention is the right direction because, on the current evidence, it could potentially discredit aspects of the book, the editor's judgement, the calibre of the person who gave the reference and aspects of the institution that backed the publication. The fact is that, to the best of my knowledge, this document has not even been mentioned by historians and politicians in Skopje (and in today's context, the text is very powerful if true). The few persons who have quoted it did so only once, on blogsites. The text is also totally out of step from the late 19th century discourse on Alexander the Great, et al. As an academic, I am happy to classy it, on the record, as 'almost certainly a fake'. But in view of the potential consequences in declaring it a fake, I am more than happy to see it published here as an article and discussed. If it is genuine, this makes it even more interesting! Politis 12:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Politis, I'm confused by your statement: "The fact is that, to the best of my knowledge, this document has not even been mentioned by historians and politicians in Skopje." How do you mean it is not mentioned by historians? This document was published by the Faculty of Philosophy and History - University of "Cyril and Methodius" - Skopje - 1985. This is the highest Academic institution in Republic of Macedonia devoted to history studies. Prior to that it was published in the book "Odbrani tekstovi za istorijata na makedonskiot narod II del Skopje 1976 str. 256-258.", or in translation "Selected documents regarding the history of the Macedonian nation part 2 Skopje 1976, on the page 256-258" by a well respected Macedonian historian Ljuben Lape. He is an Academician in the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts.
I further pointed out that the document was published in Bulgaria also, by the Bulgarian Patriarch himself. He also has a copy of the document, published in the book: Б’лгарската екзархија в Одринско и Македонија след Освободителната војна (1877-1878), vol. 1/1, Софиа: Синодално издателство, 1969, p. 461-466, 485, in translation: "Bulgarian Exarchate in Odrin and Macedonia after the Liberation war (1877-1878) vol. 1/1 Sofia, Sinodical Publishing house, 1969, p. 461-466.)
One user on wikipedia was able to find another reference of this document and the Provisional Government of Vulgaris, mentioned in the book "Greek Federalism During the Nineteenth Century: Ideas and Projects" by Varban N. Todorov ISBN 0880333057, page 99. Books checks out well, and you can even search through it: Click Here for Online Search.
I do understand what you mean when you say: "in today's context this text is very powerful." That's exactly why I published it. The fact that Macedonian politicians are not using it (and many other similar documents) is quite understandable. For us it is a common knowledge, and for the rest of the world the name issue is a backward balkan feud that has nothing to do with the history. --GStojanov 18:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks GS. As far as I can tell, the document and references to its location, are mentioned in three books. They were published in Sofia 1969, Skopje 1976, and Skopje 1985 (both in Macedonian and English). For the Skopje publications, Ljuben Lape is responsible for providing us with the Moscow Archives reference. I contacted these archives in Moscow and they said they do not have any such document; on that basis I feel justified in doubting the existence of such a document. However, as you can see I am not calling for the deletion of the article (on the contrary). I will try to track down the Sofia publication to see what references are given. Politis 15:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. I sent a request to the Federal Archive System of Russia too. But no responce so far. They do require a fee for a faster processing, so in the next few days I may decide to open my wallet and to that route. --GStojanov 15:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC) I would not overlook the book "Greek Federalism During the Nineteenth Century: Ideas and Projects" by Varban N. Todorov ISBN 0880333057. It is probably the easest to get to. It is available from Barns and Noble for $33. --GStojanov 15:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
GS, dont rush into your pocket yet... they take a while but they eventually get back to you, you can buy me a dring instead if we ever meet up in Skopje :-)Politis 12:18, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Validity[edit]

There is no original documentation backing these forged texts. St0k0s (talk) 21:50, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

This is a published work, and if it is published in English and in the public domain, then it is able to be housed at Wikisource. The validity has been chalenged already, but no issues were found. Please refer to the previous dicussions. --GStojanov (talk) 13:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Copying from here.
Not enough. This forged text is supposedly a translation of a work created before 1923. The work has to be verifiable. It isn't. You can claim that Martians invaded Skopje in 1850 and you're the only one left with a published sacred Martian translation in English. Wikisource is not a place for claims. St0k0s (talk) 23:57, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
This Manifesto is published in this book. Here is a scan from the front page: Image:FrontPage_Macedonia_Documents.jpg. --GStojanov (talk) 18:52, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

GStojanov,why do you show us only the cover of the book?This doesn't prove anything.Can you show us a scanned photo of the original document,if it's really included in that book?--Kostas68 (talk) 14:16, 13 August 2011 (UTC)