Talk:Bible

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Standardise the Tanakh[edit]

Moved from Wikisource:Scriptorium.

Likewise with the King James Bible, the Hebrew/JPS comparison Tanakh is currently in a bit of an ugly format, I'd like to propose a standard of naming. Currently, we have Torah Bereishit for the first book of the Torah, Nevi'im Trei Osor Hoshea for a book of Nevi'im, etc. I'd like to propose that we standardise the pages that we currently have (the entire Torah, and two of the Nevi'im), along with the redlinked Ketuvim and Nevi'im, to Bible (Tanakh)/Book (for example: Torah Bereishit would become Bible (Tanakh)/Bereishit).

For your convenience:

Current name New name
Torah Bereishit Bible (Tanakh)/Bereishit
Torah Shemot Bible (Tanakh)/Shemot
Torah Vayikra Bible (Tanakh)/Vayikra
Torah Bamidbar Bible (Tanakh)/Bamidbar
Torah Devarim Bible (Tanakh)/Devarim
Nevi'im Trei Osor Hoshea Bible (Tanakh)/Hoshea
Nevi'im Trei Osor Yoel Bible (Tanakh)/Yoel
Nevi'im Trei Osor Ovadiah Bible (Tanakh)/Ovadiah

If we'd like to, as well, we could also redirect Bible (Tanakh)/Genesis to Bible (Tanakh)/Bereishit, for convenience. As it is, I'm going to stard standardising the seven or so books that we have using {{verse}}, so that Template:Sourcetext will be compatible if/when we move them. Jude (talk,contribs,email) 00:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

  1. Support. Danny 00:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
  2. Support.--Shanel 00:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
  3. Support --BirgitteSB 01:57, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
  4. Support standardization, but not the title scheme (see below). Dovi 18:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Tanakh titles[edit]

I support the idea of standardizing Tanakh, but I strongly recommend doing it with the regular English titles of the books. Doing so it not only more user-friendly on English Wikisource, but also will avoid conflicts about spellings and transliterations. I also think Bible (Tanakh) is redundant, though I understand we cannot simply use Bible since it will conflict with the Christian Old/New Testament scheme. In my opinion, it would have been better to leave the word "Bible" neutral, allowing alternatives such as Bible (Protestant) or [[Bible {Judaism)]].

In lieu of that, I suggest the following alternatives:

Much simpler to use, and in my opinion clearer too.

The Torah/Nevi'im/Ketuvim division can be employed too, but it doesn't need to be in the titles of the texts themsleves. To understand how this can be done, take a look at the Mikraot Gedolot at Hebrew Wikisource.

It would also be good to find ways to set the texts within the books, unlike the Christian version, not based upon the chapter numbers. In the Torah it can be done based on the Parashot.

What do people think? Dovi 17:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I can see the reasoning for these titles, especaily since I noticed today all the links to verses in the Tanakh at WP are in form of Genesis 1:3' etc. I don't understand what you mean about setting the text within the books however. I would like to migrate links at WP to here from the external site now being used and the chapters and verses are the only way I would understand of how to set the anchors.--BirgitteSB 18:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
In terms of setting the texts within the books, what I meant was how to divide the text between pages (assuming that the entire book won't be on one page). For Torah at least, there is an easy alternative option to the chapters. Regardless, chapter and verse numbers would be indicated for citing and linking. This is a technical issue I guess it would have been more appropriate to raise later if at all, since the initial question at hand in this discussion is the page titles of the books. Dovi 20:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
This is the perfect time to bring it up. After talking to Danny on IRC, I now understand what you are talking about. I was definately envisioning having the whole book on one page which I think allows easier linking from WP for those who do not know how the Parashot are divided or named. I could be way off base, but I think the people who would know that sort of information in general would be reading on the Hebrew Wikisource. That said I would definately like acknowledge the Parashot in some way. I do not know how many Parashot there are per book. If it is not a large number, maybe we could make the verse number a different color for each Parashot with the title mentioned in that same color at the beginning of each division. I am open to any ideas you might have also.--BirgitteSB 12:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Also being involved in the conversation with Danny, I'm slightly more enlightened as to what the parashot are, though I'm still not sure what the differences are between the chapter divisions of the English-formatted texts, and the Hebrew-formatted texts. However, like Birgitte said, I imagine that the majority of people who are going to be looking for verses in the Tanakh will be looking for them formatted in what they would find a normal Chapter:Verse manner (it also allows the easy use of {{verse}}, and thereby {{sourcetext}} on Wikipedia). Of course, that doesn't preclude us from having the notices about which parasha the text is from, and which chapter and verse.
In regards to the naming, I prefer Bible (Tanakh) over Tanakh, even though I do agree that Bible is redundant for those who know what the Tanakh is... Also in regards to naming, I agree with using the English translations of the books. Much better idea than debating over which transliteration is the correct one... Jude (talk,contribs,email) 13:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
On Bible (Tanakh) agree with Jude in principle that it is only redundant for those who know the term. In general, I too prefer English terms (as above). However, either "Bible/" or "Tanakh/" is far less cumbersome to use within a system that will possibly contain many thousands of links (eventually). Since the former will create naming conflicts, I suggest that the latter is preferable to the double-term. The lack of familiarity problem is easily solved with a appropriate links to an explanation.
On the parashot business, from reading the above I don't think there is really a problem at all. Birgette suggests entire books on one page, which I also think is the best way to go at this point. If that is how we do things, then the whole issue becomes irrelevant, because all kinds of text divisions can be indicated: Parashot, chapter and verse numbers, sedarim (yes there are more... :-) In would be very cool if, someday, the reader could choose what text divisions he wanted to display (also see technical question below on this).
Finally, on a technical note: This discussion has been extensive enough that it probably belongs on Talk:Tanakh. If there is no objection I will move it there later (tonight). Dovi 06:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe there are two advatages to using Bible (Tanakh) over Tanakh. First there is some indexing feature that people have mentioned, but I do not sufficiently understand. Second is that it better fits into the structure of pages like Bible/Obadiah which relys greatly on realative links. If you also look and the indvidual verses to understand the scheme I am working on. Obadiah is a sample and this can hopefully be automated and I belive using the title allowing realative links will make that easier. I have not yet added the Tanakh until we sort out the name.--BirgitteSB 06:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Don't quite get how it fits into Bible/Obadiah better (please explain?). But I also posted to your talk page before I saw your above note. Take a look there. Dovi 07:03, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


Bible... (Moved from my talk page)[edit]

Hi Birgitte. I saw that you started working on indivual verses from Obadiah, and that an anon did the same for Genesis. This individual-verse scheme is something we have worked on quite a lot in Hebrew Wikisource, and seeing it in English got me thinking.

A couple of things:

First of all, do you have any idea why we have a page-name like Bible/Obadiah when Bible itself is a redirect to "Religious texts"? Wouldn't it make more sense for Bible to be a Bible page to list all the books, as well as provide a better location for talk than Scriptorium?

All of the work done on this has been within the past 48 hours and we are still fleshing it out. Though collaboration on the IRC channel mainly. I had not noticed the redirects. Thanks for pointing them out, I am not sure of the final design of the disambig page. I will wait for the feedback before changing the redirect I think.

Secondly, for Obadiah the template lists the previous book and following book in the template. This is likely to cause problems in the future, since various demoninations and religions order the books differently. Perhaps the solution would be to have Bible generically list links to other pages that give the various Christian and Jewish canons.

Yes that is a problem I had not thought of. Perhaps I should just kill the next link at the last verse of the chapter? There is always the template at the bottom. I plan on setting up Bible very much like the first section of Bible/Obadiah. What do you think of that?

Thirdly, the individual-verse pages you and others have created are titled as follows, which is fantastic:

That is a very powerful tool, but it made me realize that it can also help solve some the Bible/Tanakh problem. What I mean is this: part of the difference is in the counting of books. Whereas Tanakh would have Bible/Kings, Christian Bibles would have Bible/I Kings and II Kings, or Bible/1 Kings and 2 Kings. Same for Samuel, Chronicles. But the whole issue could be put to rest with a simple change to the naming scheme:

This would allow easy sharing through different listings, whether Kings is considered a single book (Jewish) or a double book (Christian). Dovi 07:01, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Another perfect solution to a problem I had not even thought of. I moved the whole disscusion here because it will get pretty involved I think. User:Bookofjude and User:Danny are the main people I have been hashing this out with. Danny also issued an invite to people over at WP where there was a conflict of where to link to Bible verses, which accounts for the anon edits. Please share any other thoughts you have about this we are still experimenting--BirgitteSB 07:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

More ideas[edit]

P.S. I'm beginning to think more and more along the following lines, tell me what you think:

  1. All individual books of the Bible from all religions, denominations, and canons, are listed very simply as in Bible/Obadiah. Among other things, the Bible/Tanakh issue is thus put to rest.
  2. Links to the "previous" and "next" book are not given in the generic page for an individual biblical book, such as Bible/Obadiah. However, for a specific translation of a book such as Bible (King James)/Ruth, such links are obviously given according to the order of the books in that translation.
  3. Each different canon of the Bible gets its own main page, linked to from the Bible page. Each of these main pages lists the books of the Bible according to its own system and order, with links to each book. E.g. Protestant Bible, Tanakh or Jewish Bible, Roman Catholic Bible, Greek Orthodox Bible, etc.
  4. A system for all individual books is used that can accomodate the various canons. E.g. for Bible/Genesis there are no differences between the canons (all list it as the same individual book), but for Samuel & Kings there are differences. In such cases, pages for all possibilities would be allowed: Bible/1 Samuel, Bible/2 Samuel, but also Bible/Samuel.
  5. Individual verses are listed as per my suggestion above. Dovi 07:37, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with most of this, however, I am opposed to the suggestion regarding Kings, Samuel, Chronicles, etc., by which 2 Kings 2:2 would be Bible/Kings/2/2/2. This division is recognized by all readers of the Bible, and is included in all versions of the Tanakh. It is natural, and would be the basic starting point for a search. Similarly, Ezra-Nehemiah are considered one book in the Tanakh, but we are not talking about doing Bible/Ezra-Nehemiah/Ezra/1/1. I much prefer that the texts all follow the same pattern. Danny 21:13, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Danny. The Jewish version should certainly link to the chapter divisions for Samuel, Kings, etc., which are dependent on the division into parts 1 & 2 (i.e. is "chapter 10" from 1 Samuel or 2 Samuel?). But it should be listed as a single book. For detailed discussion of this (including the misnomer that printed Jewish Bibles honor the division - actually they technically recognize it and print it, as we will certainly do at Wikisource, but they also do everything possible to minimize its importance and not give it any place of honor), see the extensive discussion at w:Talk:Tanakh.
In Hebrew Wikisource we have certainly listed Samuel, Kings, etc. as single books, and Ezra-Nehemia too. The citation follows the Kings/2/3/16 form (מלכים ב ג טז). It will be important for linking to parallel Jewish versions here. The difference with Ezra-Nehemia is that the form of the citation for verses doesn't depend on a number, so doesn't involve any confusion. Dovi 05:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Bible page[edit]

Isn't it about time for Bible to be an independant page instead of a redirect? (Forgive me if there is a reason for this that I am unaware of.) Dovi 18:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see these fictional books here on wikisource, too :-) 86.112.206.150 12:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Hebrew Bible Update[edit]

At Hebrew Wikipedia there is now a page for every book, every chapter, and every verse in the Tanakh. The texts are presented in a variety of useful formats. Here are some examples from the beginning of Exodus:

  • he:שמות א א (the verse Exodus 1:1 in several formats)
  • he:שמות א (Exodus Chapter 1; several versions can be chosen from by clicking the "hide" and "show" links to the left.)
  • he:שמות Several versions of Exodus (the whole book on a single page): Nine different formats can be chosen from by clicking on the links in the middle of the page (the stuff above is a navigation template that still needs work).

There is still some tweaking that needs to be done, but the texts are there and can be linked to from parallel pages here. Dovi 17:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


I came here because of the problem of systematically citing Bible verses in Wikipedia, see w:Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Bible. As far as I am concerned, splitting books by chapter is a nightmare, and without any merit as the days when computers were tending to run out of RAM when asked to open a megabyte-sized page are well and truly over.

I don't know what would be the best way of implementing this, but ultimately, it should be possible use a single algorithm to calculate a wikisource link from the parameters book, chapter, verse, version, where "version" besides the major public domain English translations should also extend to WLC, LXX, Greek NT and Vulgate. The Tanakh project is a start, but it imposes the JSP translation. I don't know if we have any possibility to create a dynamic way of arranging texts synoptically (think http://unbound.biola.edu/ ), but that would be the long term aim here. --Dbachmann (talk) 13:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Great Bible[edit]

There are a few other versions of the Bible that I think we should have written on wikisource, here they are and the reason I think they should be on here:

  • Great Bible - It was the first authorized version in English, and looks to me like a primary source for King James. It is also understandable to many native English speakers, being written parallel to William Shakespeare.

This would be very easy to do, as it is on Archives.com currently in a scan of the original. We would not be duplicating however because it has not been transcribed into modern fonts and is hard to read for people who haven't spent time learning how the English script of the period was done. This is obvious to many but should be said that by being on Wikisource it will be more accessible to millions of people.

Thoughts? Questions? Concerns? unsigned comment by Stidmatt (talk) 20:23, 18 December 2011.