Talk:Bible (Wikisource)/Genesis

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Hey Alex43223! It's really great that you are able to help with this project! If it's not too much trouble it would be nice if you could post the source text you used for translation, or if that doesn't apply othe misc information. Also if this is your own translation, or a revision of a pre-existing translation.

Thanks, --Jdavid2008 06:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Sources 2 Chapter 1, Verse 2 3 Standard Footnotes? 4 Gen 1:25 5 Sources (Jon) 6 Sources (Cato) 7 Mistakes (listed by Prof. Friedman) 8 Genesis 2

[edit] Sources

A question. I've added the last 19 or so verses to the Genesis 1 text, and I don't know where I should post my source information. My source is the traditional Masoretic text, and for translating I relied on four English public domain translations for help: John Nelson Darby's Translation, the Authorised/Common Version/King James Bible, Young's Literal Translation, and Walter Porter's ACV. Where should I acknowledge those sources? Fontwords 17:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey Fontwords! This is the place that (the discussion page) where people generally state their sources. So you did everything correctly. Thanks a lot for all your work!--Jdavid2008 17:42, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

==Chapter 1 verse 1 shouldnt the word ĕlôhı̂ym, el-o-heem’ be translated as Gods instead of God. i am sure the hebrew word means Gods

[edit] Chapter 1, Verse 2

Hey fontwords! Here are a couple thoughts on verse 2, what do you think?

2a: The Hebrew phrase translated here as "universe" literally means, "face of the deep" and is taken by some to refer to the oceans of the world.

This is one of the verses first translated by Alex? Maybe we should use "face of the deep", the literal and just let readers decide themselves what it means? Or do you think that would ruin the easy english quality of the text?

2b: According to Strong's Concordance, the Hebrew word translated here as "floating" means literally "brooding," as a hen does over its eggs.

floating isn't exactly that nice a word, brooding though sounds a bit oldish--and I wouldn't have gotten the meaning correctly without the explanation about a hen. I wonder though if there is a better word for here?--Jdavid2008 06:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Jdavid2008--Sorry about the delayed response. I don't get on the library computer to do this often.

2a: This was translated by Alex as universe, a translation I've never seen before. "Face of the deep" seems fine to me. I would have changed it to that, but being new to wikipedia, I'm trying not to step on any toes. If it seems fine to you and whoever else is involved, I'll change it.

2b: This word for "brooding" comes from an old root in Hebrew meaning "to be soft," so many translation use "moving," "moving gently," or "hovering." Personally I have no objection to floating--it seems to convey the original thought very well. I just added the footnote for anyone who might be interested.

Finally, in looking over I've noticed that there's an awful lot of footnotes for Genesis 1. If anyone thinks I should, I'm more than happy to take some down. Thanks for your thoughts,

Fontwords 21:08, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey Fontwords! Alex did a little work on this a long time ago, but for ages hasn't been active, or contactable. Since you took over this chapter, feel free to make any edits you think are important. Because it seemed good to you though I'll change universe to 'face of the deep', if when you get to the library you decide differently you can always change it :)

All your footnotes look good, and there isn't really any problem with having lot's, I'd say just leave them.

Thanks again for all your work!--Jdavid2008 00:37, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I was just looking over the translation and I'd like to help out since I have broad training in biblical languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin); I figured the Genesis discussion page would be the most active. My first thought is just that I think "floating" in 1:2 is still inaccurate and reminiscent of earlier translations with less fidelity to the proto-Hebraic original (e.g. the Vulgate). I think "brooding" is much more accurate: but since that has unwanted connotations in modern English, I would suggest "perching/ed" over, or "hovering" on (e.g. NIV), which preserve the separation of the Spirit and the substrate implied by "floating" while getting some of the connotation of the connection between the two of "brooding" in the sense of "incubation of an egg". Since I haven't edited before I wanted to throw this out there and see what folks thought and/or who else is active on this project. Cheers! --Citizensunshine 04:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC) (My Userpage is on en.wikipedia.org at the same handle; I'll try to migrate it soon)

Hey Citizensunshine! I'm glad you came and are interested in helping out, this project sure needs a lot of work!! There are only a few of us--actively I think maybe three other people, one working on John, one working on 1 John, and then Fontwords. I just wanted to drop in and say Hi -- I'll leave your specific question about this verse to fontwords though, as he's been doing most of the work on Genesis. :)--Jdavid2008 05:58, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Citizensunshine--I'm always happy to bump into someone who knows biblical languages well. "Hovering" looks fine to me. If you can help improve the translation--by all means do so. Although I've been doing a lot of translation for Genesis, my knowledge of Hebrew is limited to putting out this sort of "rough draft" sort of stuff. Thanks for your advice, Fontwords 16:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Sirrahs: thanks for the tabula rasa, as it were. After the holidays with my family (I'm back) I hope we can get some speed in the Wiki Bible translation. For the sake of non-duplication, I shall begin with (semi-randomly chosen) the Book of Daniel and see how it goes with relevant contributions.

I'm sorry it took me so long to get back. I've done several verses of Daniel as I promised and I am now I hope nicely equipped to finish the entire book. [Please other contributors, check my work; my contributions are under "citisunshine" rather than this handle] As to returning my mail: I believe I've gotten two messages; but Genesis still appears to be by far the most trafficked discussion page so I post here in response to them. To answer both: my sources (aside from the obvious use of the mostly vulgar Latin proto-Jeromic Vulgate and the high Greek Septuagint) are primarily the Judaic "Talmud Yerushalmi" in Hebrew and Aramaic and to a lesser extent the Essene Old Testament (plus still-debated apocrypha) of c 20-80 BC. A part of my intermission was getting a (typographic of course) copy of the Essene "Dead Sea Scrolls". To the Wikier who asked me to post my sources: I will attempt to post the relevant sections of the Yerushalmi if you wish (that being largely a dispersed source for the meaning of words at the time of [in this case the Book of Daniel's] canonization); but sadly due to the vagaries of copyright law, the Essenic text (at least the translation to anything other than original which I certainly can't get anyway) represented by the Dead Sea Scrolls is not yet and (RIDICULOUSLY for not another 60-odd years) shan't be in the public domain; thus I can't republish on Wiki nor even its discussion boards the small part of it I have obtained even as text. (Of course I speak only to US law but as I reside here I must abide by it.) I shall push on, on Daniel, unless I hear otherwise from yall. If that meets with general approval I think I'd like to hit on Jeremiah next: but that's a huge project and I want to make sure I'm on the right page. I'm also of course open to suggestions if yall feel there's another task on the Wikibible better suited to me. Citizensunshine 11:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Standard Footnotes?

Could we adopt another way to do footnotes in WikiProject Bible? I understand that those who put in footnotes have generally used the letter a, b, c, and so on with the Fn tags. However, as the Fn system is very inflexible when adding extra footnotes, and, at least in Genesis, notes are starting to pile up and not link right. I've had no success trying to make them work.

If no one objects by Monday, I'm going to change the notes in Genesis to work with the simpler ref tags.Fontwords 16:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Sounds great Fontwords! I started using the Fn tags because other translations on Wikisource were using it, but also have noticed they are really impractical for this project. The ref tag sounds great.--Jdavid2008 17:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gen 1:25

Is cattle in 1:25 better translated as livestock? (I don't know Hebrew, but somebody told me it was, so I decided I'd check :)--Jdavid2008 06:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Now that I've looked at it, I think it probably would be better livestock. It's the Hebrew "behemah" which according to Strong's Hebrew Definitions means: 1) beast, cattle, animal "1a) beasts (coll of all animals) 1b) cattle, livestock (of domestic animals) 1c) wild beasts." As there isn't a clear exact definition of the word that I know to be authoritative, I used the more traditional cattle. But livestock is probably better, as cattle in today's English implies bulls and cows, while behemah is a more general term. (By the way, the "behemoth" of Job is linguistically related to "behemah." Fontwords 16:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

If we're going to change behemah to livestock instead of cattle, would it be all right with you all if I looked up all instances of behemah in the Hebrew Old Testament so far translated as livestock and changed itj to cattle, for the sake of consistency? Fontwords 14:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources (Jon)

I was asked to put my sources in here. I used the Blue Letter Bible [1] online site. For each verse that site has tools for various things to include showing the verse in like 20 different translations, dictionary definitions, and the Greek/Hebrew words and definitions for each verse as needed. The translation was my own original translation for contribution to the site. Do not hesitate to edit any part of my work as you see fit. --Jon 17:12, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources (Cato)

I have added Chapter 3 and revised Chapters 1 & 2. I am trying to translate directly from the Hebrew, but am clearly very influenced by existing translations, especially JPS 1917, and by Rashi. However, I am avoiding "thou" and other archaisms.--Cato 11:47, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mistakes (listed by Prof. Friedman)

According to the Newsweek article on us (see [2] "(Old Testament scholar Richard Friedman says he's already found errors in Wiki's Genesis translation.)" I emailed Prof. Friedman asking if he could point them out so we could correct them and this is what he responded:

I can only take the time to give a you a few examples at this time:

1) The second verse of Genesis 1 has the subject preceding a perfect verb (weha’ares hayetah). We now know that this is the form of the past perfect. The perfect would have read watehî weha’ares, with the verb preceding the subject, which is the usual form. Therefore, the correct translation would be "the earth had been," not "the earth was." It's not a small point. It has theological implications: it means that there was pre-existing matter at the time of creation. There's no creatio ex nihilo. Some of the more recent translations (including my own) now reflect this understanding. And there will be a great many more cases of this form in Genesis.

2) The old translation of Gen 1:1 as "In the beginning God created..." does not correctly reflect that the first two words are in the construct state. This was first pointed out by the medieval commentator Rashi and is reflected in most of the translations in recent decades.

3) The footnote connecting the word merahepet in Gen 1:2 to a (Syriac) word for "to brood" is misleading here in Genesis 1 and makes no sense in the context.

4) The initial day is identified with a cardinal number: "one day" (’ehad), not with the ordinal "first day" (ri’sôn) in the text. That is an interesting point and has been commented on for hundreds of years and therefore should not be hidden in a translation.

5) In Gen 1:9 the Hebrew uses a verb to express the gathering of the water. It is incorrect to translate it with an adjective ("together"), which does not convey a sense of the Hebrew Niphal verb.

I hope that these few examples from the first verses of Genesis give you an idea of the kind of mistakes that are involved.

(My computer can't do all the diacritical marks that are necessary to transcribe Hebrew properly. I trust that the transcriptions above will still be clear to you.) "

I don't yet know anything about Hebrew yet, what do people think? Jdavid2008 19:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I know a tiny little bit of Hebrew. I do know for certain that many scholars widely disagree with each other on what basic Hebrew phrases mean. I'd like to run the mistakes by some scholars at Mechon Mamre (a Jewish institute concerned with Hebrew Texts) to see whether they agree with him. As to his list:

1) I've never heard of this before. Many well-known translations have "the earth was"--The New King James Version, the New International Version, the New American Standard Bible, the English Standard Version, the American Standard Version, The John Nelson Darby Translation, the Holman Christian Standard Bible, and Todays New International Version. I've yet to find a translation out there that used "the earth had been."

2)This one I have heard before. Young's Literal Translation and Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) recognize this issue. Young translated Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth..." The Notes in the HCSB suggest "When God began to create the heavens and the earth..."

3) Oops! I'm responsibe for this one. I referred to Strong's Concordance, which has been a sort of standard in Bible translation. Anyhow, Syriac and Hebrew are closely enough related that there may be some relation between the words (see the explanation in Strong's Concordance).

4) Okay...maybe we paraphrased a bit to freely. That's a valid point--I'm pretty sure he's right on this one.

5) Yes, we did paraphrase this one a tad bit. But English is frequently turning to using adjectives or prepositions along with verbs--e.g. "go away" for depart, "go down" for descend, "gather together" for gather, "burn up" for "consume with flames", etc. Perhaps we should get rid of the together, though--it really doesn't help the reader.

Folks, if these are the kind of mistakes we're making, I don't think we need to be too worried. By those standards, even the best translations made conventionally are pretty flawed. That write-up in newseek was interesting to see. I guess that's the power of wiki projects--that about twenty people can make national news. But what we really need to watch out for is agenda-based changing of the text--that's the real danger in a wiki.

Fontwords 17:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC) Fontwords 17:33, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The debate over whether the word should be "was" or "became" or "had been" is a long one. The NIV has "became" in the footnotes as a possible alternative. Other scholars claim "was" and most Bible translations have opted for this.

Hi there. I'm a pastor and a geologist, and I've spent a lot of time working with the correct rendition of the Genesis creation account. I agree with Prof. Friedman about "had been" as opposed to "was". I'm enthusiastic about that interpretation, because it allows just enough room for science to coexist with religious belief. I've just now found this project, and I'm very impressed. Good work, all! -- Pinkfud (talk) 20:47, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I hope no one minds if I chime in. By way of introduction to this project, I have a degree in Ancient Near Eastern Studies with an emphasis in Biblical Hebrew and a minor in Greek. I am enrolled in a masters program in Jewish Studies at the University of Oxford. I'd like to comment on Dr. Friedman's critique and add a comment of my own.

1) Verbal aspect and tense has long been a controversial issue in Biblical Hebrew, but it can hardly be reduced to simple subject - verb word order. To assert a past perfect generally requires a relative, causal, or temporal clause that establishes a temporal context against which the pluperfect can be compared. Friedman likes to interpret the first two words of Gen 1:1 as standing in the construct, which would provide just such a context, but I don't think the narrative establishes that frame of reference as temporally separated from the verbs of verse 2. I think a past imperfect is more precise, which would render our understanding (not necessarily a translation) of the verse something like this: When God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was (at that time) in a state of barrenness.

2) I agree here, and I think the syntax demands verse 1 be read as a type of introduction or heading. The sense seems to be along the lines of "This is how it went down when God created the heavens and the earth: . . ."

3) Agreed.

4) Agreed.

5) Also agreed. This is a fientive verb. The transitive sense should be conveyed, but the translation seems to render the verb as a stative, thus making "water" the subject rather than the object ("let the waters BE in a certain state" when it should be "let the waters be ACTED UPON in a certain way").

I would also add that the phrase tohu wabohu (Gen 1:2 - "chaotic and empty"), rather than representing chaos or nothingness, denotes a barren wilderness or desert. This is the sense elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible and it appears to mean the same in the Ugaritic literature. For a good discussion of this issue see chapter 1 in David Tsumura's Creation and Destruction: A Reappraisal of the Chaoskampf Theory in the Old Testament. maklelan (talk) 17:10, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Genesis 2

I thought this needed to be addressed. I've noticed that a user named LittleStar has changed "LORD" to "Yahweh" throughout Genesis 2, but left "LORD" be in the rest of Genesis? I know we don't have an agreement yet on how to translate the tetragrammaton (YHWH), but shouldn't we at least leave it as set by the translators till we get some sort of consensus?

I think I'll change Genesis 2 back to "LORD" so we can be consistent, and to respect the translator. (Personally, I'd rather we had "Yahweh" than "LORD" throughout the Old Testament, but I think that if we change it, it needs to be uniform throughout the text.) Fontwords 17:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I apologize. I was originally intending to revert Genesis in its entirety from "LORD" to "Yahweh" but then never got around to it. I do agree that it should be changed back, though. Didn't God Himself say at Exodus 3:15 "God also said to Moses, 'Say this to the Israelites: Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.'"Holman Christian Standard BibleLittleStar (talk)