Wikisource:Scriptorium

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Scriptorium
Scriptorium is Wikisource's community discussion page. Feel free to ask questions or leave comments. You may join any current discussion or start a new one. Some users regularly populate #wikisource on freenode, the official IRC channel. For discussion related to the entire project (not just the English chapter), please discuss at the multilingual Wikisource. See here for the historical meaning of "Scriptorium".

Announcements

none.

Proposals

Recent major proposals (support/oppose/neutral)
End date Subject Votes Result
November 27 Change the policy for inactive administrators 3/0/0 implemented
December 26 Wikisource:What Wikisource includes/new draft implemented
February 05 DynamicPageList 9/0/0 Feature request 8563 filed.
February 16 MediaWiki:Welcomecreation created

Collaboration of the Week

Wikipedia does many things wrong. Something it tends to do right lies within its WikiProjects - and one facet of that is the "Collaboration of the Week" feature. And since WS is the size of a half-decent Wikiproject on WP, we could likely do the same. Each week, a new classic author is quickly announced , and all of the "key" editors take ten/twenty minutes to improve that author's collection of works on WS.

Not so much about proofreading and scanning, which are more labour-intensive, though that could also be a part of it - but just a simple "Google, and find one or two more of Rudyard Kipling's poems to add to WS" sort of thing...but with each of our 5/10/20 "core contributors" doing that, we suddenly end up with a half-decent collection by the author - not just their one most popular book.

Similarly it doesn't really lend itself to things like the NSRW and other large collaborations, but more towards picking a "universally acceptable" author of interest, whether it's Author:Peter_Kropotkin (currently 1 work), Author:Blaise Pascal (currently 1 work) or Author:Molière (currently 0 works) Sherurcij (talk) (λεμα σαβαχθανει) 22:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Postscript: I threw up a bit of a template for the project Sherurcij (talk) (λεμα σαβαχθανει) 23:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea so long as we just make a list and then work through it instead of voting on it like Wikipedia does.--BirgitteSB 23:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a good idea, but I wonder how it will not go the same route as Wikisource:Scan parties (that is, how it will not stagnate)? If this can be pulled off, it would be a major benefit to WS, as we could really afford to expand our current holdings of pretty much every author we have listed here. Even if each contributor adds one or two works (maybe more for poets), that very quickly will add up to a number of texts listed under each author's name.—Zhaladshar (Talk) 18:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikisource:Text quality images

I propose to change all of these pngs -> svgs

  • 00%.svg -> 00%.svg
  • 25%.svg -> 25%.svg
  • 50%.svg -> 50%.svg
  • 75%.svg -> 75%.svg
  • 100 percent.svg -> 100 percent.svg

I have taken the initiative to do some of them but the embedded structure makes me hesitant to delete the pngs from commons. Have I missed any?

--Cool Cat 21:27, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Those look fine to me. Pathosbot could update the images on Wikisource, if you add this to Bot requests. —{admin} Pathoschild 23:38:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)`

Overhaul author template

Recent new features will add three new parameters to the author template, many of them largely redundant. I suggest we make the following changes, which reduce the number of parameters by three, improve bot legibility, simplify use, and add some technical benefits.

Old usage Suggested usage
{{author
 |name           =
 |last_initial   =
 |dates          =
 |description    =
 |image          =
 |wikipedia_link =
 |wikiquote_link =
 |commons_link   =
 |defaultsort    =
}}
[[Category:XXXX births]]
[[Category:XXXX deaths]]
{{author
 |birthyear      =
 |deathyear      =
 |sort_initial   =
 |sort_name      =
 |description    =
 |image          =
 |wikipedia_link =
 |wikiquote_link =
 |commons_link   =
}}
  • Simplification
    • Remove {{{name}}}; this can easily be taken from the page name, which should always match the name. (Rare exceptions can use an override.)
    • split {{{dates}}} into {{{birthyear}}} and {{{deathyear}}}, which will be used both for the visible dates and the categorization (see categorization discussion).
    • rename {{{defaultsort}}} to {{{sort_name}}}, which is clearer.
    • rename {{{last_initial}}} to {{{sort_initial}}}, to match {{{sort_name}}}.
  • Technical changes
    • Move the styles to the common style sheet. This will allow us to change formatting without editing the template, which forces every author page on Wikisource be re-cached from the database. (Theoretically, it also makes pages load infinitesimally faster; the style sheet is cached once by browsers, but inline CSS must be cached on every page individually.)
    • Output a warning message if a user removes parameters. Leaving blank parameters (as has long been recommended) allows users to create a perfectly-standard new page simply by copying an existing page, and allows bots to easily parse the template (see the style guide).

You can see a live example of the template in my fourth sandbox. Pathosbot can take care of updating uses; I will update documentation and the script files of anyone using TemplateScript. What do you think? —{admin} Pathoschild 00:56:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


  • I like it. I'd suggest one small addition: birthyear and deathyear should also get overrides, for authors born, e.g. "c. 1450" or similar.--GrafZahl 16:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
    That's a good idea; I'll add {{{birthyear_override}}} and {{{deathyear_override}}}. —{admin} Pathoschild 18:49:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • No reason not to like the idea, though I wonder if it would be possible then to either run the bot, or otherwise, to automatically every author between birthyear=1150 to birthyear=1350 to "Category:Medieval Authors", etc. But back on the topic at hand, yes, include Graf's overrides. Sherurcij (talk) (λεμα σαβαχθανει) 17:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
    Hai; I'll have Pathosbot use the authors by era table. —{admin} Pathoschild 18:49:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
    Actually, the author template can categorize by era automatically now. —{admin} Pathoschild 01:26:18, 04 March 2007 (UTC)

I definitely support this overhaul. I think it would be a great improvement over the current template and would allow us to more easily use bots to work with author pages (especially in terms of categorization).—Zhaladshar (Talk) 19:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

New copyright policy

I've drafted a new copyright policy based on the Definition of Free Cultural Works, which also forms the basis of a draft Foundation licensing policy. This version eliminates ambiguity in the current policy, defining 'free content' and explaining required freedoms and permissible restrictions. Suggested improvements are welcome. —{admin} Pathoschild 05:20:04, 07 March 2007 (UTC)


notification of use
Some requirements and restrictions are permissible on Wikisource:
- simple attribution of the authors, excluding requirements such as notification of use;
This part confuses me, why the copyright/inclusion status is different for a work requiring attribution, than one requiring notification? We can't guarantee our readers will do either, and we can guarantee whether we will do either. Sherurcij (talk) (λεμα σαβαχθανει) 07:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

If notification is required, this significantly constricts freedom by requiring lengthy and manual efforts to contact the author. Whereas it is easy to attribute authors when publishing a large collection, it is very difficult and time-consuming to contact dozens of individual authors. Further, should the author change email address or other contact information, all works by that author will instantly become unusable by all third parties forever after.
If notification of the author is only requested, there is no problem hosting it on Wikisource. —{admin} Pathoschild 18:14:05, 07 March 2007 (UTC) 18:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Requesting notification of the author does not seem to violate GFDL, does it?--Jusjih 14:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
No, but requiring notification would, since there is no such requirement in the GFDL. —{admin} Pathoschild 18:33:04, 08 March 2007 (UTC)


Non-derivative works
I would like to request that any new policy clarify the status of crown copyright works under a "waiver of copyright". See Wikisource_talk:Copyright_policy#UK.2FCanadian_Legislation unsigned by T. Mazzei 06:19, 9 March 2007.

The crown copyright documents are non-derivative works, meaning that their licenses prohibit modification and derivation. There has been much debate on Wikisource and in the Wikimedia community in general over whether this freedom is necessary on Wikisource, with no consensus reached. I suggest starting a new discussion on non-derivative works separately from this draft (which holds the same position on non-derivative works as the current); it can be amended if a consensus is reached to allow non-derivative works. —{admin} Pathoschild 07:35:30, 09 March 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't we ask the Wikimedia Foundation?--Jusjih 15:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Discussion moved to "No Derivative Works license". —{admin} Pathoschild 02:57:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


Implementation
Since there does not seem to be any further discussion about the proposed changes, does anyone oppose implementation? —{admin} Pathoschild 04:06:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope. This definition is much more succinct than the current one. I vote for implementing it.—Zhaladshar (Talk) 19:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Implemented.{admin} Pathoschild 21:04:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Questions

Adding content

Anonymous poem with a likely author

Im trying to work out what to do with a poem on W. H. R. Rivers called Anthropological Thoughts. The text before the poem indicates that it is probable that it was written w:Charles Elliot Fox (d. 1974)[1], which would put it out of wikisource reach. But, it was written anonymous; does anyone what bearing that has on the copyright status of the poem ? John Vandenberg 12:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

William Topaz McGonagall

I'd like to add some poetry by William Topaz McGonagall, which is surely out of copyright, but I don't have access to any books containing the poems that are themselves out of copyright. I know that project gutenberg in particular won't accept out-of-copyright works from in-copyright sources (because there may be copyrighted modifications made without notice, I think). What about Wikisource? Is it acceptable to add these out-of-copyright poems from in-copyright collections, or would I need to find an older book? --Sopoforic 00:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

In general, if the in-copyright anthology seems to be presenting the original work (not "An updated version of..." or "...with annotations" or "...in modern-English", then I'd say it's well within the realm of assuming that they themselves are publishing the poem as it was written by McGonagall. If an older copy of the poem surfaces one day, and disagrees with our current text, we'll of course use the older source - but barring that event, I would welcome you to create Author:William Topaz McGonagall and add his works. Sherurcij (talk) (λεμα σαβαχθανει) 13:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Erm, I see it already exists...but you get my drift. Sherurcij (talk) (λεμα σαβαχθανει) 13:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree with Sherurcij. The poems themselves are out of copyright since 1953, even though the publishers of the book could have copyright on an introduction or indeed on the "typographical arrangement" (i.e. the appearance of its pages). You are free, welcome, and even positively invited to upload the poems to Wikisource! Physchim62 17:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you. I have one further query. In mathematics, there's a problem commonly attributed to Archimedes. In 1773, a Greek manuscript was found with the problem stated in 22 couplets. There is some dispute among scholars regarding whether the poem (or even the problem) was indeed written by Archimedes. I'm writing an article for enwiki on the problem, and it was suggested that I should put the original poem here and include the problem in prose in the article I'm writing. So, the question is: ought I to create Author:Archimedes and add the poem? Should I mention that the authorship is disputed? How should I credit the translator? Thanks in advance for your assistance. --Sopoforic 23:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

You can credit the translator in the 'notes' parameter of the {{header}} template. If the translator died less than 100 years ago, you'll need to use {{translation license}}. Yes, you can create Author:Archimedes and note that the authorship is disputed. —{admin} Pathoschild 04:25:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Obituary notice published in magazine

I am wondering whether an Obituary notice of Author:W.H.R.Rivers, by w:Frederic_Bartlett (d. 1969) can be stored on Wikisource. It was published in w:The Eagle (magazine) in 1922 (w:W. H. R. Rivers# note-4 has more citation data). So {{PD-1923}} could apply, unless the copyright was transferred to the magazine. OCLC indicates that the magazine is still published annually, but I've not found much information about the current magazine. What I have found is that in 1922 it was published by w:W. Metcalfe and Son, which is now defunct as best I can tell. John Vandenberg 12:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I dislike using {{PD-1923}} for things published outside the US but others may not have a problem with it.--BirgitteSB 13:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Following up on that, it appears that in the UK, "Under the 1911 Act, such assignments reverted to the author's estate 25 years after the death of the author. However, that rule only applies to works made before 1 June 1957." If that applies here, the copyright is held by the Bartlett estate, and I could approach them. John Vandenberg 10:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Formats

Total noob question: Do contributions have to be in Wikitext form? I have PDFs of 1800s New York Times articles to contribute, but re-typing all of them would be laborious and error-prone, as well as lose the images until I separate them and put them in commons. 69.241.164.230 23:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, although the PDFs are welcome alongside them as long as they are (or will be) available in wikiML format. —{admin} Pathoschild 01:02:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey I think that the categories regarding era should be more along the lines of ancient authors, medieval, Rennaissance, Neoclassic, Romantic, Modern, Postmodern surely you can't jump from Rennaissance to "Early-Modern" thats too vague a term.

More Fun & Games around the Copyright Table

This Italian tribunal quotes a CIA recording of Abu Omar's conversations - so who owns the copyright? CIA works of course fall under Public Domain - but does Omar own his own speech if he had no intentions of "tangible-izing" it? Just curious what grey area this falls under. Sherurcij (talk) (λεμα σαβαχθανει) 04:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Public domain materials with limited fair use items

I would like to request comments for what we should do when a public domain text contains limited fair use items, such as quoting others' copyrighted texts in limited amount and using others' copyrighted images incidental to the text. Our copyright policy forbids claiming fair use for a whole article, but I am not fully sure of what we should do with public domain materials with limited fair use items, so I would like to ask.--Jusjih 17:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I personally am strongly in favour of allowing them, since it emasculates the PD text to "cut out" parts that are only "fair use" by the original author. Is War and Peace not Public Domain because it quotes from a version of the Bible under eternal copyright? Such a claim would be preposterous - and yet I know there are some who don't agree with me. A recent example might be the document removed from Zodiac Killer letters because one of his letters consisted of a piece torn off a w:Rand & McNally map of the city or something. It clearly fits every definition of fair use, since we weren't using it to illustrate what the city of San Fransisco looks like, merely as a historical scrap of paper included in one of the Zodiac's letters...we are legally well within our rights to host similar "limited fair use items", so it just comes down to a matter of writing it into the copyright policy, as you say. Sherurcij (talk) (λεμα σαβαχθανει) 18:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I am just as strongly against allowing them. The Copyright policy prohibits fair use entirely, not only of entire works. A public domain text that contains fair use has the same restrictions as a fully copyrighted work, particularly since we explicitly allow commercial use and fair-use-incompatible rights in our end-user licensing. (Note that War and Peace is in the United States public domain because the United States does not recognize perpetual copyright.) —{admin} Pathoschild 03:07:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Then let's look at the 9/11 Commission, which is PD and we do host - despite the fact we deleted the Flight 93 Cockpit Recorder and similar documents under (slightly dubious) claims they were protected by copyright. Are you going to remove all the quotes from non-PD works from the Commission's report? That might slightly emasculate the work. Sherurcij (talk) (λεμα σαβαχθανει) 12:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I initiated this question after I came across with my fellow admin in Chinese Wikisource concerning whether the pictures of 21 student leaders wanted by Red China after Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 could be used together with zh:北京市公安局搜捕“高自联”在逃分子通缉令 (official arrest notice issued on 13 June 1989 by Beijing Public Security Bureau with the text qualifying for Template:PD-CN). In case wanted criminals' pictures are supposely copyrighted (sometimes with unknown authors), incidental official use may still qualifies as fair use. As Chinese Wikisource has very limited active users with just four admins, discussing this issues there is too hard. Likewise, when I added Transcript of the closed trial of Nicolae and Elena Ceausescu, the source website identifies it as a US Governmental translation. Sections in italic type are from Austrian television comentary, which is supposedly copyrightable and incidentally included as fair use. Please see also m:Do fair use images violate the GFDL?--Jusjih 16:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
We should delete works with fair use content and wait for their copyright to expire, much as we must do for other copyrighted literature. A work cannot be almost compatible with the GNU Free Documentation License; the copyrighted content must be removed, and we do not collect incomplete works. Some points regarding previous discussion on Meta:
  • The reasoning outlined at "m:Do fair use images violate the GFDL?" is not applicable to Wikisource, where we are trying to build a free content library: "An image, when legitimately used under fair use doctrine, can be treated similar to public domain, and hence can be relicensed under GFDL. If further usage and distribution lead to the loss of fair use status of the image, default copyright law applies and the image and so the article cannot be distributed at all." Since our license allows use in circumstances where fair use is not applicable, the content does violate the GNU free documentation license.
  • "m:Permission grant extent" outlines the problems associated with a "partial grant". Note that such a partial grant is even more problematic on Wikisource, where the problematic content is not separate from the free content.
The 9/11 Commission Report is a copyright violation if it contains copyrighted material, particularly since we explicitly state that it is in the public domain. If this statement is incorrect, it should be removed immediately. —{admin} Pathoschild 21:29:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Other discussions

Category completeness

What is the policy for referencing documents located outside the Wikisource? I mean the idea not the syntax. For example, there are a lot of political treaties between countries. Some of them are on the Web, some not. Do we have to keep all treaties in the Wikisource for the country X, or can we store unpublished ones and just link others in the appropriate category? Or do I have to create special page in the Wikipedia (for example "All treaties of country X") and update it manually? It would be a mix of links to the documents in Wikisource and the Web. Barons

Speeches

I have placed an essay in my user space explaining why I believe that speeches are subject to copyright in the smae way as other "literary works". Comments are welcome. Physchim62 14:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

He means User:Physchim62/Copyright in speeches. Aleator 17:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Open Source Material

Should Wikisource be considered just a repository for open source text? Can other public domain items be included, such as sheet music, etc. Actually, the reason why I brought it up is because there is really no real way to find anything that is in public domain besides Googling it and hoping something useful pops up. Just a thought. Thanks, John G. 23:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The March of the Volunteers has a sheet music. Even though upoading files like images here is possible, please visit Wikisource:Image use guidelines and consider using Wikimedia Commons. Googling can find many images, but most are copyrighted.--Jusjih 18:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking more PDF format, much easier (doesn't break copyright). Also, Wikimedia Commons has some rudimentary material such as examples of notation, etc. but does not have much in the way of actual playable printable music. Or should this be an idea for a new "music" wiki? John G. 01:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
PDFs are usually discouraged here. These files have issues with being able to be viewed in some browsers (I know my FireFox will only display them half of the time) and aren't easily integrated into article pages. A preferred alternative would be to take screen captures of each page and upload the individual files to Commons. That way we have more control over how the pages are displayed and we don't require people to actually have to download the PDF (which could be fairly large in filesize, as well).—Zhaladshar (Talk) 03:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
The page editor allows for a bunch of mathematical symbols- could we possibly get musical notation included as a typable format? it would be time consuming to submit, but at least it would display directly on the page without compatibility issues. My main problem with doing screen captures and sticking them together is with both the large file size and the lack of editability. It seems rather cumbersome to have to screen capture each page, post it to commons, and finally link it to the respective article. Still, if we were to include sheet music it might be the only choice... John G. 05:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
You might be interested in the International Music Score Library Project, IMSLP.org. They are a wiki that hosts PDFs of public domain sheet music.--72.228.115.8 20:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Halsbury's Laws of England

Halsburys was published in 1907 which should mean it can be used freely. I have a complete set but, at 31 large volumes, it is hard to know how it might be included here. I would say that as a source of law in systems based on British common law, it is a more significant source than the Britannica is in its field. Any suggestions? --KenWalker 23:18, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are asking for. That work would certianly be a welcome addition to the project.--BirgitteSB 14:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Agree with Birgitte, I think it would be wonderful to have even a few articles from the 1907 Halsbury's, let alone the whole work. However, I am not aware of any digitized sources at the moment, so I can do anything practical to help :( Physchim62 17:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
What I want is to let people here know that I have the volumes available. I am asking for advice about how I might be able to put the printed volumes I have to use here. What is the process?--KenWalker 15:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
If you have a scanner you can scan them and use an OCR software to convert them to text, or just upload the images of the pages to "Commons". Alternately, you can also copy them by hand. There may be other options, so wait around and see what others say for a little while. 68.39.174.238 08:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

commons:Category:Jan Kleczyński - Chopin's Greater Works

Hi!

I scanned book "Chopin's Greater Works" by Jan Kleczyński, translated by Natalja Janotha. It avaliable on Commons as set of PNGs. May be somebody will be interested in making OCR/proofreading. Thank you. --commons:User:EugeneZelenko 16:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Max Stirner's The Ego and Its Own

Availible here in English if anyone wants to help clean it up.

The Ego and Its Own

--0wn 03:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Can I make my book available on Wikisource?

I am hoping to have published a book on the history of a well known (in England) rugby football club.

The book will have an ISBN and I will be the copyright holder.

As it will be published in a short run I would like to make it available on Wikisource once all copies have been sold.

Would this be appropriate? unsigned comment by 86.130.148.219 (talk) .

Thank you for considering to contribute your work to Wikisource. What Wikisource includes is a great place to get started on this topic. In a nutshell:
  1. You must agree to release your work under the terms of the GFDL or a compatible licence. In particular, you must have the power to do so, i.e. you assure us that you, not your publisher or anyone else, are the copyright holder.
  2. The work must have undergone an editing process, peer review or similar. Having your book published in the usual way is fine, as long as your publisher does not belong to the vanity press. Note that if your work does not meet this criterion, it may still be eligible for publication through Wikibooks.
If you still have questions, feel free to ask them here.--GrafZahl 10:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

How to mark that pictures are not included

I added The Long Island Rail Road: A Comprehensive History, Part One: South Side R.R. of L.I. and The Long Island Rail Road: A Comprehensive History, Part Two: The Flushing, North Shore & Central Railroad. Both of these include several pages of images, but their copyright status is not clear. (This is a common problem with railroad books: the photos are from "collection of so-and-so" but do not have any copyright information.) Should I note somewhere that the images are not included? --NE2 10:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Any such editorial notes can be placed in the {{header}} notes. —{admin} Pathoschild 01:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
You could also add HTML notes at the specific point where the image would have appeared... Physchim62 17:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Why are these so freely editable?

What's stopping me from adding the words 'is not' to a couple of the lines in something like Wittgenstein's Tractatus and really confusing people? Even if the change gets spotted quickly, why risk having some poor sod come to the site and get outright wrong information? unsigned comment by 82.118.117.190 (talk) 14:43, 12 February 2007.

Because otherwise no new works could be added. --Benn Newman (AMDG) 14:55, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
It should also be noted that the protection policy allows locking of pages with a text quality of 75% or higher.--GrafZahl 16:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
So why is Tractatus not locked? unsigned comment by 62.136.159.196 (talk) 23:19, 12 February 2007.
Because the text quality is currently 25% (not proofread). —{admin} Pathoschild 01:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
People will be confused enough by the original. —Αναρχία 08:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Downloading content

Whether it is possible to download contents from the website in a limited way?

please reply to — [Removed Email address: We don't Email answers 68.39.174.238 08:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)]

Standard Industrial Classification Manual 1987

I have started this text and I would appreciate any help anyone is prepared to give. The text is available here SIC Manual. It is mainly just a case of cutting and pasting text from the OSHA website to Wikisource. The text is public domain as it is a work of the US Government (Department of Labour).

First of all thank you for contributing here. One thing I would point out is that the title should probably be Standard Industrial Classification Manual (1987) to follow our disambiguation sytle with the subpages being titled Standard Industrial Classification Manual (1987)/Foo. I am mot familiar with the publication to feel confident in saying what exact name you should use, but you might want look at hoe the United States Code is set-up for comparision. Like the code you can have redirects set-up fo the shorthand--BirgitteSB 14:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Greek Alphabet

I copied T.S. Eliot's poem Mr. Eliot's Sunday Morning Service from project Gutenberg, but the poem contains some Greek letters. The Gutenberg version just reads "insert greek letters here". How do I put the greek into wikisource? -Samael775 15:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you know what the Greek letters are, then on the bottom of the screen, there is a drop-down menu box called "Select." Click it and select the "Greek" option, and you'll get the entire Greek alphabet (both upper and lower case). If you aren't sure what the Greek is, some research (either online or referencing a paper copy) will be required.—Zhaladshar (Talk) 18:19, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Paragraph breaks

It seems that most chapters of The Story of My Experiments with Truth have paragraph breaks after each line. The problem is that there's only one paragraph break after reak paragraphs, so that the text just flows. Some other chapters contain no paragraph breaks at all, which is even worse.

I started adding them manually, but I'm wondering if there isn't a better way to do that. I would like to do this sooner rather than later since I'm wikifying chapters now. It may be easier to just replace the texts, in which case there's no point in wikifying them now. Any solutions to this problem? SebastianHelm 08:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly you're trying to increase whitespace inbetween paragraphs? In that case see Vfd, templates imported from Wikipedia , and read the defense section on I, I2, I5 etc. I2 will do that for you in a flash, and allow you to indent the leading sentence as well if you like. // FrankB 11:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that the text has no paragraph breaks (empty lines). The I-templates will only insert line breaks, so they are not useful in this case (and I think they are deprecated at Wikisource). And inserting templates is not less work than inserting paragraph breaks. If there is some way to automatically determine where new paragraphs start it may be possible to use a bot to insert the paragraph breaks. /EnDumEn 13:01, 20 February 2007 (UTC)+

Besides making a bot request I do know of a temporary fix which should be acceptable since that is such a large project. You could simply enclose the page in <poem> </poem> as a quick fix for now. Then as you through doing the wikify work add the extra space manually adn delete the poem syntax.--BirgitteSB 14:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your replies, and thanks about the poem tag, I wasn't aware of that and will use it where appropriate.

At this time, I'm thinking if it isn't easier to do it all over. I checked chapter XXII's history, and I don't see a reason against it. I wonder where this text has been taken from in the first place. There are other sites out there that contain the text without our problem:

home page sample chapter formatting copyright
http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources/english/etext-project/Biography/gandhi [2] contains inline footnotes Etext Conversion Project (ECP)
http://www.kamat.com/database/books/gandhiautobio/ only 5 chapters    
http://www.shubhayan.com/gandhi/chap001.html [3] shows italics "© 2001-06 Shubhayan Mukherjee", but it seems to be identical with Beacon paperback edition
http://www.answers.com/topic/an-autobiography-or-the-story-of-my-experiments-with-truth [4] just as bad as ours - is this our source?  
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00litlinks/gandhi [5] nicely formatted, with footnotes [6]

Clearly, the last one is the best. Maybe I should ask the editor, Fran Pritchett, if it's OK to copy it. SebastianHelm 17:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

One additional question: If I take Fran Pritchett's version, can she then use that for her page? Maybe she'd like to have a version with links to Wikipedia. It obviously wouldn't make sense in that case if she had to add something like "taken from Wikisource". SebastianHelm 18:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

A project toddling

I've been busting butt the last month trying to get things sufficiently organized to announce a project called Wikiproject template sharing. That's no mean feat considering it has to take into account the category systems and template libraries of eleven sister projects, and so on.

In it's simplest form, it's aimed at making all of us more productive on wikipedia foundation projects, no matter what wiki we call home. And that applies as well, or will, to foreign language wiki's of all kinds. Unfortunately, the major structural underpinnings of the project are under attack on your own votes for deletion pages[7]. In an amazing display of bad communications, some things ported here were nominated within less than a day of their arrival. I can only tisk-tisk the mindset of such an attack sans a query. I'd appreciate it if you would take some time and perhaps give a quick read to W:WP:TSP as well, and help Vfd do the Right Thing. Else I could have better spent the night in bed, instead of with your cuddly Vfd pages.

There is also a smattering of templates farther down the page as well that impact on our efforts (tlx/tlxw etc.) as well. Be well, and if you have an interest in templates and the productivity they can give you. We'll be glad for all the help we can get. Best regards // FrankB 11:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Is a list of Nepal postal codes appropriate here?

Some editor at Wikipedia has typed in Wikipedia:List of postal codes in Nepal. I checked, and it's very difficult to find this on the web -- perhaps impossible unless your computer is set to whatever alphabet they use in Nepal. The article doesn't fit in Wikipedia and there's a deletion discussion going on now. Would Wikisource be a proper spot for it? If you allow it in, you'll likely be getting others. If it were easy to find on the Web, I'd just want to delete it, but my heart goes out to all those letter writers and package senders distraught over not having the proper Nepalese postal code on their mail to Nepal. Can we not assist these needy people. I remind you that it's the middle of winter and Nepalese mail carriers must now be trudging through the Himalayan snow drifts, risking their very lives weighed down with misdirected mail. Noroton 21:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

No, Wikisource does not host reference data except as part of a published work. It might be acceptable on Wikibooks, though. —{admin} Pathoschild 21:02:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks much! I'll ask there. 69.119.90.209 23:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The deletion ended with them being kept. 68.39.174.238 08:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Automated upload of Catholic Encyclopedia

I could be able to mass-upload every article of www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia with basic automatic formatting (such as header and footer) and index pages, can you please say me if it is acceptable? If it is so, i will need some help to assure i will not upload wrongly formatted pages... --Riccardo (better on it.wikipedia) 11:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello Riccardo. A title page has already been created at Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913, though it is highly incomplete. Any contributions you can make towards completing it are welcome, although please test a few pages before mass-uploading; we've had problems before with users uploading hundreds of badly-formatted pages. :) —{admin} Pathoschild 18:29:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, i will prepare a small amount of test pages in a few days. --Riccardo (better on it.wikipedia) 18:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

permission to use bot

I ask for permission to use a bot * for upload Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 articles, I will use pywikipedia pagefromfile.py with this file (26 Mb) (here a sample), then i will need some replace.py passes to correct page header. I've rebuilt an index. --Riccardo (better on it.wikipedia) 22:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello Riccardo. I have a few questions and comments:
  • I assume you will backlink to an index for navigation, which would be easy with regex and make sense in this case. However, existing pages use an article-to-article navigation (see example). Will you replace that system on current pages, and wouldn't it be easier and quicker to add the navigation directly to your file using a regex editor?
  • The index you've created is incorrect; every article should be named "Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)/Article title", not "Article title", which is easily corrected. (I'll move the current pages to the parenthetical standard before you start.)
  • Be careful with special characters; you cannot work from a normal text file, as that replaces Unicode with nonsense like "ò". Make sure your source and files are saved with a Unicode-compatible encoding (with Notepad: File >> Save as >> Encoding: Unicode). For example, search your test for "canonry at Münster".
Thank you for your interest in contributing; a careful standards-conformant upload bot would be very welcome. :) —{admin} Pathoschild 08:35:16, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I assure you that text index and example file are correct utf-8, but browsers (at least firefox) renders it as ascii; ehm... i forgot to add Catholic Encyclopedia (1913) to the index, and if convention is (date) ant not the current , date i must also change articles. Regarding navigation index in headers... yes, it will be better to add links before upload... i will try. Thank you for your help --Riccardo (better on it.wikipedia) 09:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Here there are about 10000 pages almost ready (there are some duplicates, but with the same page name, so it shouldn't matter). I could upload them with a slowed-down unflagged bot of mine, or make a bot request, or wait some days until i will have permission --Riccardo (better on it.wikipedia) 21:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC) Yes, i'm still correcting remaining errors :-P --Riccardo (better on it.wikipedia) 21:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest running your bot slowly to create ten or so pages, then pausing it for feedback. After that you could run it a little more, perhaps another thirty pages or so, and if there are no problems you could request a bot flag and run it faster. :) —{admin} Pathoschild 01:01:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Test runs

Ok, i've uploaded some pages for now, here is up-to-date source (someone passing by could be taken by an irrefrenable will to check text, why not? :) ); ehm... considering that there are 11255 articles I request a bot flag, with a page each 10 seconds (approx a right-speed bot) I will need 31 hours --Riccardo (better on it.wikipedia) 18:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I think it's a little early to grant a bot flag; as the bot policy explains, new bots should perform a few test runs to work out any glitches first. I have a few suggestions about your last test run:
  • I've normalized the Catholic Encyclopedia header template, but I would suggest using the {{header2}} template directly. It automatically adjusts for empty parameters, so this is ideal for bot creation. Using the standard header template is preferable over a specialized template since it makes it easier for bots to parse pages; the specialized templates should generally only be used for works in progress, and replaced with the standard header (usually by substituting) when the work is complete. I would suggest this usage, leaving the previous and next lines blank where necessary:
{{header2
 | title    = [[../]]
 | author   = |author_override = [[Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)#Editors|multiple editors]]
 | section  = {{SUBPAGENAME}}
 | previous = [[../previous|previous]]
 | next     = [[../next|next]]
 | notes    = 
}}
  • An advanced regex bot like Pathosbot will eventually need to go through the pages and replace "see SOMETHING" with "see [[../Something|SOMETHING]]", and remove bot comments like <!-- title:'''Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)/Aachen''' -->.
Great work so far. :) —{admin} Pathoschild 20:45:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, i will change header, regarding title line... i simply forgot to use -notitle option, ehm --Riccardo (better on it.wikipedia) 21:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I added some tenth of pages, will continue tomorrow --Riccardo (better on it.wikipedia) 17:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
That looks very good. I just made two minor mistakes above ("override_author" and subst:). Pathosbot is fixing current pages.
{{header2
 | title    = [[../]]
 | author   = |override_author = by [[Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)#Editors|multiple editors]]
 | section  = {{subst:SUBPAGENAME}}
 | previous = [[../previous|previous]]
 | next     = [[../next|next]]
 | notes    = 
}}
{admin} Pathoschild 20:48:24, 01 March 2007 (UTC)

Bot flag

  • I support granting a bot flag to Riccardobot. Riccardobot has successfully uploaded a number of pages now, and Riccardo has shown that he is polite and willing to correct mistakes. —{admin} Pathoschild 01:33:42, 04 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. Looks good.--GrafZahl 10:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support where this kind of initiative can work, we should not put obstacles in its way. Bravo Riccardo! Physchim62 14:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support Outstanding! ++Lar: t/c 17:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
    thank you, I will soon speed up page uploading, i hope to upload every volume early --Riccardo (better on it.wikipedia) 16:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia on BBC Radio 4 this morning

Congratulations Wikipedia, you certainly came out on top in the discussion with a pompous, whingeing representative of the new, fundamentalist Conservopedia

My opinion about Wikipedia has risen from moderate interest to admiration. Keep up the good work unsigned by 84.64.251.85 11:05, 7 March 2007.

Hello. This is Wikisource (a free library), a sister project of Wikipedia (a free encyclopedia). However, I'm glad you think so highly of our sister project, which many of us also contribute to. :) —{admin} Pathoschild 18:18:24, 07 March 2007 (UTC)

Spoken works and LibriVox

On the mailing list, Erik Möller suggested that the Wikisources' collection of spoken works may be expanded by free material from LibriVox and that he's going to write a bot to automate the upload to commons, provided that there are sufficient volunteers to add links to the media files and keep a spoken work index up to date. My thoughts about this:

  • The LibriVox files could potentially make a great addition to Wikisource.
  • We don't seem to have a spoken work index besides the category page which is getting quite full, with all subchapters for a single work being listed. As Erik pointed out, our German sister project already has an index page with information for listeners and speakers, which I'd be willing to translate.
  • Nevertheless, before a spoken work is advertised as complete/reliable, it should go through a quality control process, which, given that the audio files come from an external source, would incorporate special scrutiny that the spoken works are actually the same versions as their written equivalents on Wikisource. In this light, a check/upload bot might not actually be necessary, even unwanted sometimes.

What do you think?--GrafZahl 22:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

My thoughts are mainly on your last point. LibriVox usually links to the Gutenberg version that they read. So, if our version is different than the one they read, we can easily switch to the other version. Although, I don't particularly see this as an issue if the audio version and our text version don't match, as most people probably won't read the text along with listening to the audio (although, I do understand your point). Also, by doing this, we might be able to get a link exchange going with LibriVox, too: we host their works, give them full credit, link to their page (on the Commons file page), and they link to us. I think it would help both of us in the long haul.
I've already e-mail Erik about being willing to add links and help with the Index, although he has yet to reply back.—Zhaladshar (Talk) 19:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Having read your reply, I've thought about it again and now I believe my points of critique are not so relevant after all. Of course, we should inform our users that the contents may not match perfectly, but after all we're republishing previously published material, so the differences should never be very big, and if they are, it probably warrants hosting an alternate version of a text anyway. All my remaining concerns become moot then. So, let's try this experiment. My offer of copying the structure of the German spoken works directory stands, as for the rest, I'll have to see how much time I've left.--GrafZahl (talk) 10:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. :) I can't do much of the translation, but I can help organize much of the audio works (seeing as I've added so many of the ones we have) if need be.—Zhaladshar (Talk) 20:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I've placed a translation at Wikisource:Spoken works. Now we need to streamline it (see my comments on the talk page), possibly split it into a useful guideline and an index. Even if Erik should decide not to write his bot, it's useful to have these pages.--GrafZahl (talk) 23:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

No Derivative Works License

As per above, I'm starting a new discussion regarding whether or not licenses with "no derivative works" clauses are compatible with Wikisource.

I come at this issue from the perspective of Crown Copyright legislation for which a "waiver" of copyright has been passed which allows reproduction with a few requirements, the main ones being that the document must state that it is not an official version, and that the document must be reproduced with "reasonable accuracy". Obviously this second requirement would seem to conflict with the GFDL, which allows users to modify (create derivative works) at will, provided proper attribution.

Currently there is no policy, or at least an inconsistant one, with regards to licenses with "no-derivative works" clauses are compatible with Wikisource. As such, documents are being deleted or kept seemingly at random based on whether or not the editor feels that that a particular version of such a license is or is not compatible with GFDL. Case in point: Canadian legislation (post 1956) - kept (for now), UK legislation (post 1956): deleted.

I did a quick search of the archives for the last year to determine what, if any, the previous concensus was. The following links go to previous discussions of the question, particularily as it relates to Crown Copyright. There was no strong consensus, although there was a slight bias towards banning these licenses, at least as they apply to UK legislation.

General Policy:
Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2006/03#Copyright_debate_at_mailing_list

British (and Canadian) Legislation:
Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2006/07#UK_Acts_of_Parliament
Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2006/12#British_and_Canadian_laws
Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2007/02#UK_legislation

Wikisource_talk:Copyright_policy#UK.2FCanadian_Legislation

Wikisource:Possible_copyright_violations/Archives/2006/04#British_Statutes_After_1955
Wikisource:Possible_copyright_violations/Archives/2007/01#British_Crown_Copyright

Australian Legislation:
Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2006/03#NSW_legislation

Constitutional Documents:
Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2006/07#Copyright_question

Not about "no derivative works", but I've noticed alot of constitutional documents that would appear to be copyright (were written in the last couple decades) have been added to Wikisource, however I do not have enough international copyright knowledge to say whether or not there are any copyvios.

Possible home for rejected documents (provided they don't require GDFL):
Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2006/11#For_hosting_documents_not_accepted_here

For my part, I think that these licenses should be allowed, at least in the case of legal documents, despite the apparent conflict with GFDL. The reasoning being that in the case of legal documents, any modifications would either be to such an extent that it becomes a "new work", or would result in a document that was a deliberately misrepresentation of the law (i.e. fraud), in which case it becomes a criminal issue, not simply a copyright copyleft issue.

I would also like to repost the comment by user:Physchim62 which I agree with completely:

My personal view (although I fear that I am in a minority) is that this sort of "accurate reproduction" license is compatible with Wikisource, where we aim for, well, accurate reproductions of texts. There is no reuse restriction either in the UK or Canada. An "accurate reproduction" allows for changes in format: these are obligatory for UK laws, where the Queen's Printer imprint must be removed before redistribution. To say that we cannot infinitely modify the text is, IMHO opinion, beside the point: apart from the fact that an infinitely modified law is worthless, there are many restrictions on the modification of images of real people which are not deemed to be conflicting with the GFDL.

It seems ironic, to say the least, that a site dedicated to providing a source for accurate texts cannot accept these documents because they are required to be accurate. Another bit of irony and inconsistancy: on reading up on this topic I read the actual text of the GFDL license. At the top it says "Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowed" (no derivative works). The text was hosted on Wikimedia.

Anyway, if the decision is to remove "no derivative" licensed works, please note that user:Jusjih added "Even after the Crown Copyright expires, the Reproduction of Federal Law Order still applies indefinitely" to the Canadian Legislation template. If this is true, then all Canadian legislation (and court decisions), not just post 1956, will have to be removed. --T. Mazzei 04:45, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Allowing non-derivative works would require changing the Wikisource global license. This is perfectly fine by me; I think the GNU Free Documentation license is very poorly suited for Wikisource. Instead, we should use a strict copyright policy and alert users that content is released under a variety of licensing conditions (GFDL, Creative Commons, public domain, et cetera). However, this is a significant change that would require the permission and oversight of the Foundation. —{admin} Pathoschild 05:31:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I mainly agree with the sentiments expressed above. However I think it is a bit more complicated. I think all derivatives, outside of transalations, are pretty much irrelevant to Wikisource. I also think it a bit of a mistake to call this a "non-derivative" issue as that is a piece of "free-culture" terminology with bad conotations which is not actually used in these licenses as far as I am aware. I would be particularly interested in understanding the Canadian issue mentioned above. Since Canada has multiple official languages I wonder how they can legaly forbid derivatives without some exception for translations. I imagine most of the federal laws are given in official translations, but I cannot imagine that all the court decisions at every level are provided in mulitple languges in a timely manner. Also think need to have a solid plan of what we would like to do instead of the GFDL before addressing this with the Foundation. Honestly it is not very accurate to describe this as a GFDL project anyways. The actual contributions which are made here under the GFDL are very much in the minority. Most contributions of the editors here would qualify as uncopyrightable. We would probably only have convince ten people to dual license their contributions (one of main ones being Pathoschild who seems open-minded above) as well as adopting a policy of allowing fair dealing citations in the "notes" (with some common-sense word limit) to minimize the GFDL material to a completely insignificant amount.
So if this is truly something people are interested in looking into I think two basic things need to be done to start. First we need conclusively determine how translations are to handled in the various cases were alterations to the text are forbidden. Second we need to identify which copyleft license is significantly better than the GFDL at accomidating the restrictions on these sorts texts in original translations. Assuming we can figure those two things out then need to decide how license the project cotributions (header etc.) as well as determine if that or a different license would be more suitable for database rights. If these things can be done and the community as whole supports this idea, I would be willing to campaign for it. However if we cannot find a clear way to accomodate translations for these texts, I will personaly be ambivalent and believe the issue has very little chance of sucess. --BirgitteSB 19:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
You're right Birgitte, these aren't true "no deriviative" licenses in the vein of the GFDL text hosted on Wikimedia, they merely place some restrictions on the type of derivatives (i.e. they must be "reasonably accurate"). In Canada, the Reproduction of Federal Law Order merely requires that "...due diligence is exercised in ensuring the accuracy of the materials reproduced..." This is somewhat ambiguous, but the intent seems to be that if the document is an "accurate translation", then it is allowed. The British waiver of copyright goes one step further in requiring that translations that are to be issued to the public be performed by a "competent translator". --T. Mazzei 02:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Works that only allow derivatives and modifications with ambiguous conditions and the reserved right to legal action are equivalent to 'non-derivative'. For example, the Reproduction of Federal Law Order would not allow free parodies, since exact reproduction is not the intention. If we want to allow non-derivative works, that is fine; however, we should not state that pseudo-non-derivative or reproduction-only works freely allow derivatives. —{admin} Pathoschild 03:58:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
WRT their compatibility with this site, yes, they probably do boil down to the same thing. But there is a distinction to be made between a license that says "you shall not modify this text" and one that says "you can modify this text providing..." The Canadian order was (purposely?) written in ambiguous language. Depending on your level of m:copyright paranoia, this allows reproduction under either the widest or narrowest scope of the term "accuracy". [Regarding parodies,] I don't believe I said that. I was talking about translations, where exact reproduction (of the content, but not the form) is the intention --T. Mazzei 04:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Regarding translations again, copyright (usually) gives the copyright holder sole rite over any translation of his works (i.e. Canadian Copyright Act, section 3.(1)(a)). So if the work is truly "non-derivative" (meaning no derivatives whatsoever, unlike the Crown Copyright waivers), then translations probably apply as well. Not that that seems to be the intent of many of these licenses (ex. the GFDL license text), merely a side-effect of the assertion, so perhaps in some cases permission can be obtained. --T. Mazzei 04:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
@Pathoschild: It would be completely misleading to describe a license which allows translations as a non-derivative license. Perhaps these licenses will end up being too restrictive for us even with translations allowed, but they are not the same as a non-derivative license. At the least we should clearly determine what restrictions are the one that push the balance scale to "non-free" for future reference. I don't think whether parodies are allowed is a good test, because I believe that is an issue in any system with "droit d'auteur". I believe the part of law you have a problem with is dealing with w:Moral rights (i.e. the right to the integrity of the work). Since as far as I am aware there is no expectation amoung the free content movement that authors should give up the moral rights accorded to them in France to be condsidered free-content, I don't see why such a provision should be a problem when written into a license instead of a national law. Of course IANAL, and I could be misinterperting that entirely.--BirgitteSB 18:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no mention of translation in the Reproduction of Federal Law Order; it merely grants permission to "reproduce [...] provided due diligence is exercised in ensuring the accuracy of the materials reproduced and the reproduction is not represented as an official version." There is no release of the rights to derivation (including translation). —{admin} Pathoschild 01:18:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
The wording of the order is vague, as I mentioned above. It does not say "exact reproduction", it says "accurate reproduction". Whether or not an "accurate translation" is an "accurate reproduction" is simply not clear. That being the case, I have sent an email to the Department of Justice requesting clarification specifically on whether or not the Order allows translation. I will be greatly surprised if the answer is no, since (1) I believe the intent of the order is to protect the content of the document, and not the form, and (2) the British waiver on which the order is based specifically allows translation. --T. Mazzei 02:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't we ask the Wikimedia Foundation?--Jusjih 15:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The Foundation has recently announced a draft licensing policy which prohibits non-derivative works. However, it allows for the development of an "Exemption Doctrine Policy [...] that, in accordance with United States law [...], permits the upload of copyrighted materials that can be legally used in the context of the project".
This Exemption Doctrine Policy seems to be intended for fair use and similar unlicensed conditions (probably to accommodate existing non-free content on large Wikipedia wikis, such as fair use on the English Wikipedia), not non-derivative works. In addition, an Exemption Doctrine Policy is explicitly non-free, and the draft policy requires that it be applied minimally if at all. Furthermore, some Foundation oversight over any transition from free to pseudo-free is implied: "The Foundation resolves to assist project communities in need of an EDP in the process of developing it. The General Counsel is directed to coordinate this process." Therefore, as far as the Foundation is concerned, non-derivative works are prohibited but might, just might, be permissible.
Before we ask the Foundation (and all the controversy that will involve), we should find out whether or not we want to. Some discussion I found with some searching:
{admin} Pathoschild 02:57:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
According to the current revision of the Wikisource:Copyright policy page the Fair use doctrine don't apply for whole text works. If that information is correct, I think that this entire thread is er... improductive. Lugusto 03:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The thread is about non-derivative works, not fair use. My above comment mentioned the possibility of creating an "Exemption Doctrine Policy" to allow non-derivative works, but listed disadvantages in doing so. —{admin} Pathoschild 04:43:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The War of the Worlds

Minor point, but according to Guternburg this work isn't Public Domain (at least not in the EU) until 2016 at the earliest..

H.G Wells Died in 1946 - Meaning that the 50 year copyright (Which would have existed at that time in the UK would not have expired until 1996) Which is after copyright terms were extended to 70 years.

Thusly as far as the UK is concerned (and possibly the EU as well) NONE of H.G Wells works are yet in the Public Domain.

There is also the issue of 'derived' versions given the recent film adaptations. ShakespeareFan00 16:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The simple answer is, "We don't care about the UK, if it's PD in the States, we put it up" - though the less-simple truth is that we're not consistent about that. We waver between "PD in the States" and "respecting laws of major English-speaking countries" and "respecting laws of all countries", the fact is, copyright law is inconsistent with itself, and there's not a prayer of finding something legal in every country under every eventuality. Sherurcij (talk) (λεμα σαβαχθανει) 17:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Formating- in relation to The Elements of Euclid.

Hi,

In copying across text from an edition of 'The Elements of Euclid' (now in the public domain) I have attempted to keep the original formatting.

See The Elements of Euclid/BookI/Proposition_1

However, it would be clearer (and more useful if I could reformat this slightly, so that wiki cross refs within the text could be added.

What is Wikisource policy on this?

Should I format as the original text, or re-format for clarity and cross-ref?

The material in the work could however be adapted for WikiBooks if wiki-link cross referencing can't be applied to the work on here.

ShakespeareFan00 23:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The New Illustrated Universal Reference Book

Hi,

Belive this to be out of copyright given the front-peice givien, but would appreciate one of the 'experts' here taking a look. If it needs to go, speedy it ASAP. ShakespeareFan00 13:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It is a corporate work published in UK in 1933. Yann 19:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)