Lexow Committee

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Lexow Committee  (1895) 
New York State Senate
Testimony of J. Lawrence Carney. One of the subjects of the testimony is Charles Frederick Lindauer (1836-1921).

J. Lawrence Carney, called as a witness on behalf of the State, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Direct examination by Mr. Goff:

Q. How long have you been in New York? A. About five years this time; I was here about — before that I was here about 10 years ago; I was here three years when I was younger.

Q. During the five years that you have been in New York what business have you been engaged in? A. The last two years I have been engaged in transacting business for some policy men in this city.

Q. In what capacity? A. Almost every capacity; writer —

Q. Give us the designations of the various positions? A. Oh, well, I have done writing for them.

Q. Writing? A. Yes; I have been to court with some of the men to help bail people out, and all such things as that; some confidential work.

Q. Well, have you been what is called a backer? A. No, sir.

Q. You are not fortunate enough? A. No, sir; never got that high.

By Chairman Lexow:

Q. Never had the bank-roll? A. No, sir.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. Now, we have heard something about policy here, and yet I think it would be interesting to the committee to hear and to have placed upon the record how the policy business is conducted as between the writers or the backers of the game, and the persons who play policy? A. Well, you want a description of how the game is run?

Q. I do? A. Well, in the first place these drawings are supposed to be drawn in Covington and Frankfort.

Q. Two lotteries? A. Yes; it is legalized there; two lotteries, one in Covington and one in Frankfort; this is supposed to come by cipher, by the Western Union Telegraph Company; that is the cipher it comes in; that is supposed to be 26 numbers at night, and 24 in the morning; that is 13 words (indicating paper); I do not understand them, and they do not, and only one man knows them, E. J. Conlon, in Jersey City, is the man.

Q. What is his right name? A. That is not his right name; nobody knows; I do not know that he does himself.

Q. Is he a distinguished man in the society? A. He is the secret man; there are three other secret men; they sell these drawings to the backers in New York, and these three men control the business only; this Conlon does all of their private confidential work; probably they do not know his name.

Q. Do you know the names of those three men? A. No, sir; I do not; and nobody else, I guess, but themselves; none of these people go under their right name; one of the names I think he went by, I think is by the name of Hughes, one of them.

Q. Hughes? A. Hughes.

Q. Now, you say that two messages come over the Western Union wires every day? A. One at one o'clock in the afternoon and one at six in the evening.

Q. And each letter represents a certain number? A. They probably represent more than one; there are two lotteries, and each one of them contains 12 figures, and there is 13 words there; I cannot tell you what that meant, I can not decipher them, or anybody else, and even the backers can not do it, in New York city; this Conlon is the only one can do it.

Q This telegram is dated Cincinnati, Ohio? A. Yes, sir.

Q. “To P. J. Conlon, Jersey City; Window Dear, Harvest, Lattice, Buggy, Signal, Emptiness, Welcome, Fortune, Legacy, Consent; Bank, Post?” A. No signature.

Q. No signature? A. No signature, never; Cincinnati is right opposite Covington, and across the river, and they are carried across and sent by telegram.

Q. Now, there are different words used upon each telegram? A. Every day the words are different; in case the drawings should be detained — now, say, there is a common running slip there; in case they shall draw the same numbers next week, those words would be different.

Q. They are, generally every day? A. Every day.

Q You hand me what is called a running slip? A. Yes, sir; there are lots of them there; there are some plays in that too.

Q. What are those letters in those different columns? A. Those are the figures; those are the numbers that are drawn.

Q. Now, let us understand, when this telegraph message is received in Jersey City from Kentucky, then the cipher is transcribed, and the numbers given out by this Conlon, is that it? A. Yes, sir; and sent over the telephone to all the main backers; that is, over the telephone to Jersey City, and they send it all over the telephone to the policy shops in the city; and the policy shop have prints and stamps, and they print it; that is not official; if you are hit you are not satisfied to pay off on that; there is an official print.

Q. This is an official print? A. That is what they pay off by.

Q. How are those official prints gotten up in a short time? A. They have a place they can do what they want to.

Q. A printing office? A. Yes, their own private printing offices.

Q. And these printed slips are the official ones? A. They are official to protect the writers, each one gets one of them, that is all.

Q. You said, Mr. Carney, that but one man, this Conlon, in Jersey City, that he has got the power, and the means of giving out the numbers for the successful or winning policies? A. Yes, sir; he has got full power.

Q. And all the drawings of policies in this city or in Brooklyn and the neighborhood are dependent upon the numbers that this one man gives out? A. Yes, sir; he has charge of all the surrounding country until you reach Albany; there is another man in Albany; there is two of these cipher messages come, one to Conlon and one to this man in Albany; he has charge of Syracuse and Troy and all that part of the district

Q. The man in Albany? A. Yes, sir.

Q. There must be considerable telephoning and telegraphic work? A. Each one of these backers have a long distance telephone in their office, in their private headquarters, a long distance telephone; they have their names in the telephone book, but there is also a fictitious name — a real estate office, may be, or something of that kind.

Q. Now, could you tell us how many of those backers are in the city of New York? A. I can name them off for you.

Q. Name them, if you can? A. Al Adams, Jake Shipsey —

Q. Why do you put Al Adams first? A. Al has the most number of sheets, and he is the biggest man, and has the most money, and has the biggest pile.

Q. He is called the king of the policy dealers, isn't he? A. Yes; and there is Jake Shipsey; he is another big man; Cornelius P. Parker, and Billy Meyers, and Ed. Hogan, and Charlie Lindauer, Dick Gammon; how many is that; (the stenographer states the number); Morton — Billy Morton, Murray — if I seen the names I could tell you.

Q. If they occur to you again, all right? A. Yes; all right.

Q. Now, can you state of these 14 or 15 policybackers in this city, if they have the city divided up into districts? A. Oh, yes; they, some of them, join together; now, they all work rather together, except Parker; he, as Parker says, he has to buck against the whole lot of them.

Q. You are acquainted with all of those men? A. Oh, yes; Parker, he has to buck against the whole lot of them; Al Adams, Billy Meyer, and Shipsey, and Morton, and all those fellows work together.

Q. On a sort of combine? A. Yes; Jake Shipsey takes all the “put-off play” that these backers are afraid to back; a gig, for $1,000 for one of these backers, he may be afraid to take it, and he puts it on for Jake Shipsey; Shipsey takes most of the “put-off play;” that is, the big play; he has got plenty of money, Jake has.

Q. What class of people mostly indulge in this policy business? A. It differs; sometimes the prosperous people; down town, it is the poor class, the Jewish people, and up town, it is the negroes, and go up town in Little Italy, they are Italians, and some places of business men; on the other side are lots of brokers around in places.

Q. What amounts are generally risked upon these plays? A. That depends upon the people, you know; go down around Eldridge and Stanton streets, they play penny and two-cent gigs; you go up town and they play from 15 to 25-cents, and sometimes $1, and you go to Little Italy, and they play all sorts; and you come down where the brokers play, they put down $100 or $50, and they play according to their means; just the same as any other men do in their gambling.

By Senator Bradley:

Q. They would go as low as two cents? A. Oh, a penny; come in and beg you to trust a penny.

Q. Are there not many women who play? A. Lots of them, and come in with children on their arms, and babies on their arms.

Q. Do children play? A. Lots of them; school children come in with books on their arms.

Q. Is there any attempt at concealment? A. Some places; there is places there where they call the safe ward, Captain Seibert's precinct, in Madison street; there used to be a place over a blacksmith's shop, and they used to go in from school after 12 o'clock with their mother's play with books on their arms and the copper used to watch at the door for us.

By Chairman Lexow:

Q. Who, a policeman? A. Yes; sure; with a big beard.

By Senator Bradley:

Q. So that the children would not get hurt? A. So that we would not get hurt, I guess.

By Chairman Lexow:

Q. They were not protecting the children, were they? A. No, sir, we do not think so.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. You have written in a good many shops in this city? A. Lots of them, all over this city.

Q. So you are thoroughly familiar with the game and all its workings.

Q. Now, I ask you about whether or no these backers divided up certain portions of the city, and you have not answered my question yet upon that point, as I would like you to? A. Well, to a certain extent; now, Gammon, he has mostly down about South and Broad streets; they come up a little further; and Lindauer has a new place; he is a small fry backer; you come up, and Billy Meyers is a backer on the east side, around the Hebrew district, and up about as far as Sixth street; and you get up above that, then Morton and Murray have a good many places, and Hogan; and up above Fourteenth street Parker's places up to Harlem, Ninety-eighth street and One Hundredth Street, and along around there.

Q. That is the east side? A. Yes; Al Adams has from Fourteenth street up on the west side mostly; nobody else can go in there, it is impossible; and down below that Hogan, and Murray and Meyers, and all the rest of them have them on the west side.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. By what means do those backers divide up the city between them; for instance, Al Adams has the territory from Fourteenth Street to Harlem river; how can he have that territory for himself? A. I don't know; if you wanted to do the same thing, I suppose, and went over there and fixed the captain not to let any other place run, he would not let anyone else there.

Q. Is that the means by which these backers obtain exclusive business in a certain district? A. So far as I or anybody else is concerned, it is.

Q. You know the business thoroughly from top to bottom? A. Yes, sir.

By Chairman Lexow:

Q. When you said, as you did a moment ago, did you state an inference that you would draw from your observation, or did you state a fact within your knowledge A. No observation.

Q. You stated a fact within your knowledge? A. Yes; I can give you an instance.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. Let us have an instance? A. Billy Meyers' man was going to open a place for him in Twenty-ninth street; he says, “Carney, we will have to go and see the captain;” I said there is a place across the street, but he is doing no business; I think we can run him out; “We will have to see the captain;” the captain said we could not open there; he said, it was too near; “You must not take the living out of that man's mouth;” that is the Twenty-first precinct, Captain Martens; and he said he seen Captain Martens, and he said he could not open there, it was too close to the other place, and could not open in that precinct; he wanted me to open in Seventeenth street, Meyers wanted me to; he wanted me to open the place in Seventeenth Street; and I don't remember the captain over there now, what precinct it is in; anyhow it was between Seventh And Eight avenue; a friend of mine opened the house there and wanted to rent me a floor in it to open, and I told these people and they said, “Well, we will see the captain,” and he seen the captain; he said. I could open whenever I got ready; I said, “How is that, Dick:” that is the head man's name; "that you can open there at all:” I said. “I thought Al Adams had that;” “Al Adams and I are good friends;” he said. “And we went down and he saw the captain for me.”

Q. Do you know Al Adams? A. Not personally.

Q. In these two conversations you have given, did you personally have any conversation with any of the captains? A. No, sir; we would not be allowed to do that.

Q. The backer is the only one to do that? A. The backer or his head men, or his manager.

Q. Did you in any of these cases see the backer go to the precinct station-house? A. I went over to the west side one night with the backer to see this captain; whether he went over I don't know; I left him at the place I was going to open; he said he would go around and see the captain; I did not see him any more that night; I could not swear he went into the station-house.

Q. Do you know from your knowledge of the business whether or no these backers paid money to the police? A. Why, certainly; they can not help themselves.

Q. They can not help themselves? A. They could not open if they did not; they would not be open 12 hours in a ward without having the coppers on them if they did not pay them.

Q. Do you know of any cases where the policy shops were open where they refused to pay, or had forgotten to pay? A. Oh, no; they know better.

Q. Is it a recognized system and rule among the policy dealers in this city to go to the police and arrange for the paying of the police before it can be opened? A. Certainly.

Q. Is there a specific sum agreed upon for each place? A. Well, I suppose some districts, they may pay more; now up in the Twenty-first precinct, Captain Marten's precinct, there is a middle-man there named Richard Dore. and when this Parkhurst crusade was around last winter, if you remember, which they closed up so many places, or in the spring or winter, the captain told him to close: he could not open; and he refused to pay his money — that month's money; and so they bothered him; I was working for him at that time, and they bothered him very much. and chased him around. and chase you out on the street and out of the place; and consequently, he says to me one day or he says, in my presence to a friend in there. I heard him — he says, there is no wonder they are bothering me; they are bothering me to the devil: I haven't paid my $35 this month, and I do not propose to until I open; he says, I am $70 in on this month. and he owned two places, and they wouldn't let him open.

Q. Now, is there any arrangement entered into between the backers and the policy writers, as to their proportionate share of this payment to the police? A. No. sir.

Q. How is that arranged? A. All the backers pay everything; the backers pay everything.

Q. Well, it depends on how you are writing your book; if you are writing your book on interest and commission, you get 12 1-2 per cent. commission of the gross proceeds, and 25 per cent. of the earnings at the end of the month; if you are simply writing on commission, you only get 12 1-2 per cent.; but if you are writing on commission and earnings, 25 per cent. at the end of the month, the money that is paid out for all expenses is deducted, then you get your 25 per cent. of the earnings that is left.

Q. I notice here upon this printed slip — this is what they call the official slip? A. Yes, sir.

Q. “Beware of counterfeits”? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is there a reason why that should be done? A. Oh, yes.

Q. What is the reason? A. Many a thousand dollars have been beat out of it.

Q. Of the backers? A. Oh, yes; somebody would bring in a copy of that — the runners do — stand in with the gang, and fix it up, and paint it up, and send it in a slip of a play on the book, and get their money; and when that is in, and they get the money, you can not sue on it, because it is not legal, and they dare not say a word.

Q. Take a policy shop in Harlem, what would be the average of your daily receipts? A. Well, now, not much; in good times, up to within a year, since these hard times and depressions came — before that a good book would run from $60 to $100 a day; some of them $150.

Q. In these poor districts? A. They are best districts; the very best.

Q. Better than the districts occupied by the well-to-do people? A. Yes; they do not play such big amounts, but the quantity more than covers that.

Q. The districts occupied by the poorer class of people are the best districts? A. Yes. and have the most policy shops.

Q. Well, I asked you about whether the policy writer had any arrangement with the backer as to his proportionate share of the payment of the police? A. I think I answered that, but I will tell you again.

Q. I did not get it? A. It depends on the kind of book you are writing; if I have an interest in the book, I get 12 1-2 per cent.; that is the commission. and at the end of the month 25 per cent. by earnings. and if the book was a loser, I get no per cent. of the earnings; in case I was writing that kind of book at the end of the month. all expenses are taken out — rent, coal, gas, protection: everything is taken out and what is left we get 25 per cent. of that for your earnings; if there is nothing left, if the book is loser without the expenses, the backer pays it; you do not have to pay it; you are not supposed to pay it.

By Senator Cantor:

Q. You get 12 1-2 per cent. of the receipts? A. Yes; as commission; if you have an interest book that is supposed to pay your writer 12 1-2. and a 12 1-2 per cent. for every month is supposed to be your earnings; in some places in the city, they have writers simply on salary.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. Where they have a writer on salary, he does not pay any proportion for protection? A. He gets nothing but his salary.

By Chairman Lexow:

Q. When you pay protection; what do you mean by that? A. They deduct that with expenses, coal, fuel, gas, and everything.

Q. Do they give you an account of it? A. Oh, no; just simply say so much out for expenses, leaving so much, and your percentage is so much.

Q. How do you know they have deducted any special amount for protection? A. How do I know they do?

Q. Yes? A. They know that the rent. and coal and light don't come to such amounts.

Q. Does the backer, or whoever represented him. tell you how much he deducted from your particular share for protection? A. He did not say how much he deducted. but. of course, it was understood, and it was told us so much had to be taken out for protection. and fixing things with the captain and wardman and police, etc.

Q. Was any specific amount mentioned? A. No.

Q. Then you took as the total expense, whatever figures they gave you? A. That is it.

Q. And was satisfied with the balance? A. Yes; we had to do it; of course, we turned all the money into them every day, and if at the end of the month you did not trust to them to give you the money you would not get it; that was all.

Q. Now, in the arrangement of the business throughout the city, can you state if the police have knowledge of all the policy shops in the city? A. Why, they can not help having; if a place — there are policy shops in New York city, have been running 25 years, simply four or five cigar boxes in the window, and they have been there 25 years, and the police play themselves; there is a policeman over here owes me $17.25.

Q. How did he come to owe you? A. I had to trust him.

Q. For his pay? A. Yes.

By Senator Bradley:

Q. Is he still on the force? A. I suppose so.

Q. Give me his bill, and I will collect it? A. I will give you half.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. You say the police play themselves? A. Yes, sir.

Q. To any extent? A. Some policemen are good players, and some very good players, but they are not always good pay.

Q. Then many of them play on credit; is that it? A. Well, we don't call it credit, we have to call it “give;” I don't know what you would call it; a man comes in and says, “Give it to me,” what are you going to do; if you don't give it to him, what are you going to do; you are gone up, ain't you; you can't refuse him.

By Senator Bradley:

Q. You say the police as a general thing are good players? A. Yes, as a general thing.

Q. Most of the gigs they play, aren't they taken from dreams? A. Yes; they have regular books, and interpret all the dreams.

Q. Would you suppose the policeman dreams while on his post? A. He might do it.

Mr. Goff. — We have testimony, Senators, in the early part of your sessions, before the summer recess, where a man swore to a policeman playing five times with him, and not paying him any money, and he refused to let him play the sixth time, his place was demolished, and he himself arrested.

By Senator Cantor:

Q. What is the special skill required to play the game? A. You have got to know if you want to play; anybody can play; just put three numbers, and if the numbers come out you get $10, and if not, you don't get anything; I mean a man that pays good money, big money, is a good player; I mean a man that comes and says two cents, or a penny for a gig is not.

Q. The good play consists of the amount of money he puts on? A. Yes.

By Senator Bradley:

Q. And the frequency of the play? A. Yes, and how often.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. How are the various plays characterized? A. The first is a “saddle,” that is two numbers.

Q. A saddle? A. Yes.

Q. That is composed of two numbers? A. Two numbers, that pays $1 for six cents; now, suppose you played 7 and 20 in a saddle.

Q. Who selects the numbers; it is entirely at the option of the player? A. The numbers run from 1 to 78; there are 78 numbers put in the wheel; you can select any number from 1 to 78 on two numbers, and if those two numbers come out, in those 12, and you put six cents on it, you get a dollar; if you play three numbers — if you played, 7, 13, 20, that is the police gig.

Q. Why is it called the police gig? A. Well, I don't know; there is lots of them.

Q. Lots of police gigs? A. Yes; there is half a dozen police gigs; they play them in different parts of the city, different gigs.

Q. Is it because they are generally played by a policeman? A. Whenever there is anything happens to a policeman everybody plays a police gig — any policeman is discharged or drunk, somebody goes in and plays a police gig.

Q. You mean to say if a policeman ran up against the Broadway cable car and got the worst of the collision, you mean to say the people would run in and play the police gig? A. They would take the police gig, take the number of the car and run the combination.

Q. Well, does the play of policy, the selecting of numbers, largely depends upon such accidental circumstances as the one I have mentioned? A. Yes; I will tell you, Mr. Goff, there is dream books, “Common Sally,” and the “Three Witches,” and “Wheel of Fortune;” now, those books have every word in the dictionary, I guess, and they will have the lucky number opposite; if a fellow dreams he has seen a horse, if he is riding horseback, he will pick up the book and if he finds it 49 first, he will take out that.

By Senator Cantor:

Q. That is a saddle; now, a gig is a combination of three numbers; how does that pay? A. A hundred to one if you play it in both lotteries; that is, if it comes out on either side it pays, and that gives you $1 for a cent.

Q. If it don't come out? A. You gets nothing for your money.

Q. Does it ever come out? A. Yes; they win.

By Senator Pound:

Q. Is this the order here (indicating slip); “46-44-75” of the winners? A. Yes sir; those are 12 numbers that win; the top letter that you have got there is called the State, and the bottom is called the Kentucky; if you play 46-44-75, you get $2 for a cent.

Q. If you have any of these three numbers you win? A. If you have three of any of those numbers.

Q. No matter what way they are on that slip? A. No matter what way they are there.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. Are there any other combinations or designations? A. Yes, sir; four numbers you make four gigs, and it costs you four cents to play those four numbers for $1; if you put four cents on that you make a $1 gig; three numbers — one gig; the same as the combination of a safe; if the whole numbers come out you get four gigs, and that makes $4; you can turn the four numbers around and around and make combinations of three numbers each; five numbers make 10 gigs, and you put 10 cents on that for a $1 gig; or you can put as much on that as you want; if three numbers come out there is a $2 gig; if four numbers come out that is four gigs, and that is $8; and if the whole five come out that is 10 gigs, and that is $20; and so on up, and five numbers make $30; 12 numbers make 220 gigs.

Q. So it requires some technical knowledge on the part of the writer to be able to look out for his place? A. Yes, you have got to be very careful; and if you make a mistake, if you are hit and it is not on the book the backer won't pay it, and you have to pay it if it is not down on the book.

Q. The moneys you receive, do you pay the winnings out of the money, or do you send the moneys to headquarters? A. Well, you pay if you win, and I have a runner; if I am a man who has a runner and make a book up town, I have a man take the book; if my receipts of this morning are $60, of course, naturally I would keep that money until the winning numbers came in, and if I was hit I would pay it; if I was hit $40 I would pay that out; and I would send that money down, less the commissions.

Q. What is the general custom? A. Well, the general custom is after your book runs a few days you usually can send the money down by the runner every morning; the runner comes up to get your book to be sent down to headquarters because you have got so much money there; and if there are a good many people, you may have an over-hit."

Q. In case of any accidental number coming out in connection with any public happening or circumstance, that is seized upon by many players? A. Oh, yes; when the first run of the cars came on I had that number of the first car on the book and nothing else; I had the car that night on my book; everybody played that first.

By Senator Bradley:

Q. They all won, didn't they? A. It didn't go.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. For instance, the other day, we had an officer here whose name we did not know, but we simply called him out as No. 35, on his broken club that we had; would such a number as that be used? A. Oh, yes; if I had been playing policy then I should have played 35 first.

Q. That would have been a good omen? A. A good one.

Q. Have you ever been interfered with or arrested in New York by policemen? A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know of any policy players who have in New York? A. Lots of them — not players, no, not players.

Q. The writers? A. Yes; the writers; they never arrest the players.

Q. Why is it the writers were arrested if protection had been paid in the manner you have descibed? A. It is very seldom they are arrested by the wardman or the policeman, hardly ever; it is like this: Now if there is anything like the Parkhurst crusade, or anything like that coming around, or the newspapers having a big shout, the wardman will say look out for the newspaper men and Central men; if those Central men are sent out to get yon they will get you if you are doing business.

Q. And the wardmen notify you? A. Yes; they come right to you, and if news is coming to the captain, to see how you are taking care of your business, he will put an officer we do not know, in civilian's clothes, and send him around, and say if that officer can get him on that line a Parkhurst man can, and a newspaper man can, and if that man can get in anybody can.

Q. He sends him around to test you? A. If he can get in on you he will arrest you.

Q. I see that number 35 has been made use of? A. Haven't you a policy slip?

Q. Of yesterday? A. Well, well.

Q. Look there and see if 35 has not been made use of and hasn't come out? A. “Second;” that stands for the second piece of the club.

Q. Is that what that stands for; which lottery is that in? A. That is in Kentucky.

Q. In the Kentucky? A. Yes, sir; that is the evening slip.

Q. Of yesterday? A. Yes, sir; 10th.

Q. When we had that officer on the stand? Day before yesterday.

Mr. Moss. — Yes; day before yesterday.

The Witness. — I should follow it up for four drawings; that would be the fourth drawing.

By Senator Bradley:

Q. Talking about numbers: about the month of February, did you have any run on number seven at all? A. Seven ran pretty steady sometime last spring.

Q. About the time the Lexow committee was appointed, wasn't it? A. We ran pretty steady then.

Q. Didn't you have a gig called the Lexow gig, or the Lexow number — number seven? A. No: I don't remember the Lexow gig; we had McKane's gig, though.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. What was the number of McKane's gig? A. It was his age, and his cell. and the tier; I think it was 9-18, something, if I am not mistaken; it was his age, and the tier, and his cell; that was the gig.

By Chairman Lexow:

Q. Have you had a pantata gig yet? A. This is a police gig; we have lots of them.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. Do you remember if that McKane gig was successful? A. It came out a few days after he was locked up.

Q. Pay pretty well? A. Lots of people had it up town; I don't know about down town; the papers had the numbers of his cell, and age, right close together, and everybody took that for the gig, and it was called the McKane gig.

Q. Was there any other gigs of famous origin that occur to you now? A. Well, there is lots of fancy gigs; there is a Reilly gig; that is a famous gig.

Q. What is the origin of that gig? A. That goes several years back; at this time the backers used to take sealed plays; you could put your numbers on a piece of paper and put in the amount of money you wanted in that envelope, and seal it up, and they would not open it; and after your slip came in, you could open and look in their presence; if your numbers won, they would pay you; but they got hit so heavy that they discontinued it; this man Reilly was the saloon-keeper in Brooklyn; it was 16-20-28, and Reilly played it for $16,000, and his wife for $10,000, and after the drawings came in both came in with a slip, and one thought the other did not have it, and vice versa, and come to find out one was for $10,000 and the other $15,000; since that, it has been called the Reilly gig, and since that they have refused to take any more sealed play.

Q. Did they get the money? A. Oh, yes.

By Senator Bradley:

Q. So much for Brooklyn? A. So much for Brooklyn.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. Now, speaking about the Parkhurst raid. as you have described them. and also of the Lexow committee. has either of those institutions affected the policy business in this city? A. Oh, yes; yes, sir.

Q. What have they done; increased it? A. No, sir; between the two, and the newspapers, they have drove about, I should suppose they have decreased the number of policy shops in the city about 50 per cent., every bit of it; they have decreased it for the time being, but as soon as it is over, up they will spring again.

Q. So the policy business flourished uninterrupted, and undisturbed, by the police of this city? A. Except for an occasional rest, or little flurry; if somebody makes a complaint, why, of course, they have got to go and look about it, and probably may make an arrest.

Q. How about that system they have of having someone in the place to be arrested, who don't write it up? A. They did that sometimes, and discharged them; it is not necessary in most of the courts to arrest him; you may arrest a man and take all the testimony you want, and he is discharged.

Q. Discharged by the police magistrate? A. Yes, sir; it don't matter how much evidence you have got, there is hundreds of cases dismissed, and won't allow you to show the evidence.

Q. How is it; do the backers or policy writers have an understanding that they will not be held in a police court in case of arrest? A. If you are held, that is the last of it; if you are held in bail, you never hear of it again.

Q. You say they are very infrequently held in bail? A. Very infrequently.

Q. Is there an understanding among the policy writers that they are pretty well looked after in the police court? A. It is understood that the policy writers — that the backers will bear all expenses, and will do all they can to keep them out of trouble; the only time I knew of anybody being fined was when Mr. Comstock done some raiding; one got two months; the understanding was he was to plead guilty and he plead not guilty, and Recorder Smyth railroaded him.

Q. For his own fault? A. It was his own fault; he has got a place up here now; he runs an envelope game up in Twenty-third street.

Q. The same fellow? A. The same fellow; a man about your age, I should judge.

Q. Do you know his name? A. Yes, sir; Michael Ryan.

Q. That is not the green goods man, is it; Michael Ryan, the green goods man? A. I don't know as he ever done any green goods business; he has a regular policy game, and an envelope game at night, at least he did until the newspapers and the Parkhurst people; and he also had a sweat board in there, and the captain made him take it out, and I think he made him discontinue the envelope game; I have not seen him within some time.

Q. What captain? A. Captain Gallagher, I think, just off Third avenue, on Twenty-third street; there used to be a pool-room in there; I think it is No. 154, if I am not mistaken; go through a long hall, and when you get there, there is a door, and knocks three times, and the man looks through a wicket in the door, and if you are all right, the door is opened and go to another door, and you are allowed to go in.

Q. Those three knocks are an open sesame? A. Yes; you can not always tell about that; they have a man at the door all the time.

Q. Speaking about the effects of the newspaper publications upon the policy business, have you noticed lists, for instance, of the policy shops published in the newspapers? A. Yes, sir.

Q. From your knowledge of the policy shops in this city, were those lists accurate? A. No, sir.

Q. Have the policy writers anything to do, or the policy anything to do about those lists or the publication of them? A. I should say the police had; I should say the reporters got all the information from the police; if they knew how reliable that is, as I do, about policy business, they would shake the police altogether.

Q. What is the purport of having inaccurate reports given of the location of certain policy shops? A. They give it to the reporters to go there to find out, and they go there and do not find out anything.

Q. Where certain houses have been published in the newspapers, and have policy shops that are doing business? A. Well, that is — that is rumor that these places are doing business; that is rumored by the police; that is started for the benefit of the reporters.

Q. By the police? A. Yes; by the police; and the reporter may go to the captain and may say so; I don't think the captain ever told the reporters a policy shop in his district; he might have told them it was rumored so; I don't believe he ever told them there was such a place doing business.

Q. Alleged policy shops? A. Yes.

Q. You have heard that word “alleged,” before? A. Oh, lots of times.

Q. With regard to the payment of money to the police officers. have you ever had personal knowledge or an experience in payments being made? A. Well, I never paid any in this city; no.

Q. Did you ever see any paid? A. No; I never seen any money given to them.

Q. Well, how is the business now; during the sitting of this Senate investigating committee.? A. Very bad.

Q. Is it stopped? A. Very bad; they are chased out now; what I mean by that, if they are doing business on the sly, and they are locked up, and blinds pulled down, and if you don't know how to get in, you can not play; there are 300 or 400 books in the city had to close up because they can not make expenses; those that make enough money to live, they are doing business.

Q. Do you say that from personal knowledge? A. I certainly do.

Q. And personal examination? A. I certainly do; the Senator has the list there that are doing business.

Q. Have you made the examination? A. Every one of the places on that list; there is about 600 of them there.

Q. Now, this list that you have prepared; look at it; can you swear to the correctness of that list? A. Well, I swear that every one of them was doing business when I got that list, up till about two days ago.

Q. Up to two days ago? A. From the 6th of last month, all of them; some of them I did not — some I only visited the last few days; and some of them a couple of weeks ago.

Q. Within that period of time? A. Within that period of time there was business being done in them; it won't be done to-morrow after this is out, you know; they will all be closed up to-morrow after they see the papers; you could not get a play in them for love or money to-morrow.

Q. You made this examination under my direction, didn't you? A. I did, sir.

Q. And you made the examination by police precincts? A. I did sir.

Q. Now, I find here the first precinct that you have returned is the Fourth precinct, under Captain Slevin? A. The First precinct is there, Mr. Goff; the First, ex-Captain Devery, wasn't it?

Q. Oh, yes, the First precinct, Captain Devery; have you computed the number of places? A. There is very near 600.

Q. No, in the First precinct? A. In the First precinct, I think, there is about 20; there is now; there were more than that, but there is some of them closed; there was about 40 there, but they closed half of them.

Q. Seventeen places returned in the First precinct? A. Yes; 17 places.

Q. You have got the names of the backers of each policy place? A. Very nearly all of them.

Q. I find the names here of the backers in the First precinct are Gammon, Murray, De Witt, Shipsey, Brown, Parker, were the names of the backers? A. Yes, sir; that man Brown, he has had the place in Maiden lane, I guess, 20 years.

Q. That is 102 Maiden lane? A. Yes; that is it; over a glazing shop; there is a glass door there, and glazing store, and it is one flight up.

Q. I find you have located them at 57 Pearl street, 73 Nassau street, 22 Stone street, 100 Broad street, 105 Broad street, 132 Broad street, 37 Front street, 127 Pearl street, 68 South street, 44 Gold street, 102 Maiden lane, 74 Maiden lane, 127 Cedar street, 26 Stone street, 138 Stone street, 88 South street and 167 Maiden lane; now I find in the Second precinct here, in Captain O'Connor's precinct, that you have returned —? A. Captain O'Connor's precinct; there has been lots of them closed since the Lexow committee commenced to sit the last time.

Q. Eighteen places in Captain O'Connor's precinct? A. That is about right.

Q. And the backers there are given as Adams and Shipsey; they are the two principal backers in that precinct? A. Yes, sir.

Q. I find in the Fourth precinct, Captain Slevin, there are 23? A. That is a good neighborhood; Slevin is a very good man for the policy business.

Q. He is a good man for the policy business? A. Yes; one of the best.

Q. One of the best captains? A. Yes, sir.

By Chairman Lexow:

Q. When you make those statements, you mean that in that particular branch of industry that captain is considered by common rumor to be one of the best? A. Not Slevin; I do not; I will tell you after awhile some circumstances that makes me know the best from him.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. We would like to have any personal knowledge you have rather than statements of general rumor? A. Do you remember reading in the paper a couple of months ago, and in the Evening World, when Captain Slevin said — he made the report to one of the police commissioners — that somebody had sent him a letter, signed “Mother,” complaining that there was a policy shop at 102, 107 and 200 South street, and 203 Front street; in answer to the commissioners, he sent his officers there in citizens' clothes, and visited there himself, and he found no policy shops running; and he said right, but all the time I was running, and I ran after his man visited, and he made that report to the police commissioners, and it was published in the Evening World.

Q. It was right? A. It is right; his men visited, and he visited, and visited me; all he said to me, “Go in a story higher, Carney, or go in a small, dark room.”

Q. Who said that? A. Why, wardman, one of them; Wardman Townsner, and Slevin came around, and I was gone to dinner, and he told the wardman to tell Carney to go up a story higher.

Q. And hence it is you can say Slevin is one of the best men for the policy business? A. I will tell you another thing; he came around one day; I was a little tired chasing around the Long Island Hotel, 203 Front street.

Q. Chasing around for what? A. From room to room, you know, through the hotel, writing; I had to jump around and carry my little table around into each room; so one day I took two men up in a room, an upper one; I was sitting there, and I locked the door tight up; I did not think about the transom being unlocked, so I sitting there writing, and there was a big electric wire, a thick one, hanging down from the side of the building, and someone came to the door, and knocked hard; it did not sound like a right kind of knock to me; I did not give any answer; I said, “If you want to get in here, go downstairs and see the doorman, and if you are all right he will let you in;” and pretty soon I saw the transom opening, and Wardman Callahan was looking in, and I writing; and when I see the transom, I grabbed the electric-light wire and started down, to get out; he says, “Hold on Carney; that is all right; I want to see you;” I said, “It is you, is it;” he said, “Don't I tell you the old man says to get out of here; how are you obeying me; what are you doing; do you want to have me broke; do you want to have the old man broke;” he would have arrested me if he could, but the captain would not allow him to arrest me; Callahan would have pulled me all right, but that was his orders to see how I was doing; at this point, that was the only two I had taken in the hotel; the man downstairs had taken the play from the people and brought it up to me; this day it happened; he said, “I would not have known where you was, only when I was coming along these two men were talking in the room;” and Callahan says, “Now, I want you to get out of the building, and take your play on the street, and go upstairs in the garret, on the roof, and write your play when it is time;” I said, “All right, Callahan, I will do it;” he went out and I went downstairs every day and collected my pay, and took my table up in the room in the top of the hotel, and wrote it out and sent it to the office; and I have reason to understand that Callahan and Slevin are pretty good men to me.

Q. Now, I see in the Fifth precinct, the one that Captain Dougherty commanded —

By Chairman Lexow:

Q. I would like to understand this a little better, Mr. Goff; how is it if you were paying protection, and had a large amount of money paid for protection each month, how was it you permitted these wardmen to chase you from one room to another, and one house to another? A. Of course you know the captain has got to protect himself, and when a complaint goes into Superintendent Byrnes and the police commissioners it has certainly got to be investigated; and if the report goes to the police commissioner personally he has certainly got to make a report to him.

Q. Did you say to Callahan, “Now I am paying out of my little income, I am paying a certain amount monthly to you people for protection; why don't you protect me, why do you disturb me?” A. That is what he was doing; he came to warn me to go into the top of the building so the Central men would not get me.

Q. Callahan warned you to go from one room into another to protect you from a raid from the Central office? A. Yes, sir; Byrnes would send his men on account of these complaints.

Q. They were afraid you would be raided from the Central office on account of no word being sent to the police station? A. Yes, sir; they said if they come around and catch you we are in trouble.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. I find you report here 12 places in operation in the Fifth precinct, lately commanded by Captain Doherty? A. Yes, sir. Q And the principal backers there that you give are Adams, Shipsey and Morton? A. Yes, sir.

Q. I find in the Sixth precinct, commanded by Captain Berghold?

By Chairman Lexow:

Q. One moment; we had some testimony here yesterday showing that when a letter calling the superintendent of police's attention to the presence or existence of some of the games in a certain precinct had been received by the superintendent of police, that it apparently then had found its way to the station-house in the precinct in which the lotteries were situated? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did any such occurrence ever happen while you were in the business? A. Oh, if there is a complaint sent in about them shops to Superintendent Byrnes of course the captain would send around his wardman and tell you to lay low. When these complaints, signed “Mother,” of those three places came, Captain Slevini publlished them in the World — his answer to it to the police commissioner; it was in the Evening World, and you can find it there in looking over the index, a small item in the Evening World; these complaints have been sent to the police commissioners, and they referred it to Captain Slevin, I suppose, or he would not have known anything about it; of course he knew we were there, and were doing business, but he would not have come around and said, “Lay low, and look out for Central people.”

Q. Were you ever directly warned, from your personal knowledge, by Callahan, or any other wardman in that district, that you might expect a raid from the Central office through Inspector Byrnes? A. I was directly warned to look out for Inspector Byrnes' men from the Central office.

Q. Just state the conversation, as far as you can? A. Callahan came around, and said, “Carney, you have got to get out of here;” I said, “Why;” “Well, there has been a complaint sent in;” I said, “How is this,” “Somebody complained about you, Jose, and Dix, 103 and 107 South street; somebody complained and signed “Mother,” and the old man sent me to tell you to go up into the top of the building or get out for a few days;” I said, “All right, Callahan, I will do it;” he said, “Don't fail, for the Central men will be around here;” and they were, a big fellow with a light moustache, and a small slim man.

Q. Was that the letter you referred to before signed “Mother?” A. Yes, sir; I think it had been sent to the police commissioners; and this big fellow with the light moustache, he was all right; he was straight to us people; he would not pinch me; for every time he came up, and he would come up and say “Sneak” when the tall, slim fellow was coming up; but the tall, slim fellow would come up and look all around; I suppose it was fixed up for one to come up, and then make a big bluff; and go to the house and search for me; the big fellow would come up and say, “Sneak,” and the other man loiter behind.

Q. He was connected with the Central office? A. He said so; Callahan said so; “I know those fellows; look out for them,” those are his very words; this Towsner was a special officer, and they sent a man down from headquarters to write for me, a man named Joe; I gave my warning, but Towsner comes up and gets Joe, and walks in; he didn't arrest me; but he was in there, and Joe talked with him, and I guess he done something else; I guess he gave him some money; I don't know.

By Senator Cantor:

Q. You were not present? A. No, sir; anyway, Towsner did not arrest him, but said, “We will call it square this time, but after this time keep your door locked,” and pulled out his shield and chucked it on the desk; he is a special officer, and not a wardman; he goes around in civilian's clothes; and says, “Now, my boy, I have got you;” and Joe talked to him a little while and from what he told me the next day he paid him something; but I don't know what.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. Never mind about that; now, you have made, you say, a careful examination of all these places in the city of New York? A. Yes, sir.

Q. You have made a return here of the policy shops in every precinct in this city? A. There is one or two precincts away up town; I did not have time to go there.

Q. That is across the river? A. Yes; Captain Ryan's is one.

Q. Kingsbridge? A. Yes, sir; I did not go out there; every precinct south of Harlem river and up around Morrisania, and Mott Haven, etc.

Q. But, with the exception of that Kingsbridge precinct, covering Riverdale and up there? A. Yes; I did not go there.

Q. Will you swear there are policy shops running and have been running during the month of September in every precinct in the city of New York? A. I do, sir.

Q. I see here running on the average —running some places from 6 and 7 to 30 and 40? A. Yes, sir; I have a list of about 350 that I would not put in that list, because I would not swear they were not running; I knew there were policy shops there one time, but I could not say they are now.

Q. The list you give us here is a list you can swear represents the policy shops that are actually running? A. They were running when I got that list.

Q. And amounts to about 600? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Six hundred policy shops running to-day in the city of New York; and do you say, from your knowledge of the policy business, would it be possible for those policy shops to run and be in operation without the knowledge of the police? A. No, sir; it would not; of course not; they could not; it would be impossible.

By Senator Bradley:

Q. How long do you suppose a policy shop could run in the precinct without the detective or captain knowing knowing it? A. He would not run 12 hours.

By Chairman Lexow:

Q. As I understand you, you say nobody dares to open a policy shop, unless he has ascertained beforehand that he is going to be protected by the police? A. I never knew any one to open one unless he saw the captain first; I never heard of them trying to open one without getting his protection of the police.

By Senator Pound:

Q. What is your present occupation? A. Nothing now.

Q. When did you go out of the policy business? A. A couple of months ago.

Q. Why? A. On account of my wife and family; they wanted nme to give up the business, that is all.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. Do you remember one day when there was an arrest made in your place you received a message that you had better go to the court, and a ranner from the court approached you? A. Oh, yes; yes, a fellow by the name of Jim O'Toole.

Q. Who is Jim O'Toole? A. He does the court and confidontial business of William Marr's manager, that is, Richard Phalen; he goes by the name of William Bedell, but his proper name is Richard Phalen; I was talking to Mr. Bedell at the time that Jim O'Toole came in, and I think he had been to the Jefferson Market or Essex Market Court, I am not sure; somebody had just been arrested, and this is the words he used to Mr. Phalen; he says, “Ryan says, send over another hundred dollar bill,” and Phalen says, I wonder where in hell he thinks we get them, on the docks,” and Jimmy says, “I don't know, but Ryan says, we are not doing right and Parker is doing the square thing, and if we don't do it, he is going to turn it down;” I don't know what Ryan it was; he said, “We opened a couple of bottles, and he told me this;” he says, “You musn't return any more money to this clerk;” this Ryan says to him, “Don't pay this clerk any more money; if you have got any more money to pay, pay it to me.”

Q. What is the name of the speaker? A. James O'Toole.

By Senator Bradley:

Q. What position does he hold? A. Confidential man, and he does all the court work for this man Meyers, for this backer.

Q. For the different police courts? A. All through the city; O'Toole was a rather, short, stout man with light moustache.

Mr. Goff. — We offer this last sworn to in evidence; he swears to it to-day; it has not been sworn to in the shape of an affidavit; he swears to it now. I notice here that it is not in numerical order, so I shall put it in numerical order afterward. If you please, mark it in evidence.

(List marked Exhibit 1, October 11, 1894, L. W. H.)

Q. How many days did it take you to get up that list? A. I suppose — I did not work steady on it — I suppose I was about two weeks and a half off and on.

Q. Do you mean to be undertood that you went to each one of these places, and saw that they were in operation? A. I did, sir.

Q. To everyone of them? A. I seen some evidence in them, or got some evidence in them, that shows that they are running as policy shops.

Q. That they were doing business there? A. Doing business, and selling lotteries.

Q. Does that statement of yours include any individual place mentioned on that list? A. Yes.

Q. Your instructions from me were not to report any place unless you could swear to it as a fact that the policy business was being conducted there at that time? A. Yes, sir; those were my instructions.

Q. Have you followed those instructions? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you swear this report you made is accurate and correct? A. Yes, sir; it was; of course, it is probably —

Q. For the time you have stated, within the days you have stated? A. Yes, sir; I have got lots of slips, and lots of plays I got in many of those places.

Q. In many of those places you have reported here you have played in them? A. Yes, sir; here is some places, and here is a lot more here.

By Senator Pound:

Q. How many places a day did you visit? A. When I had a ward I picked up 50 or 60 places very easy; I got a play in them, or got a slip from them.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. What is this? A. That is “a book.”

Q. This is “a book?” A. Yes, sir.

Q. This is what you call “writing it up?” A. That is a policy book; that is the regular gig all written down; that is the book you send to headquarters.

Q. That is one there? A. No; one drawing; that is only one of the books; that is just a copy; there are three of those sheets; the same ones at headquarters, and one to Jersey City, and keep one; that is for one drawing; that is all.

Q. And you say you sent one to headquarters, one to Jersey, and you kept one? A. Yes, sir.

Q. To whom did you send it to Jersey City? A. Well, they sent it to this Conlon's office; of course, there is a runner takes them over; I don't know where his office is; you could not find it very well.

Q. I notice here, for instance, on the first column, several numbers, and a small column then with the figures 10 in it? A. Yes.

Q. What does that mean? A. That is the way some people make their books; that is to add up their column easy; that is 10 cents that play costs.

By Chairman Lexow:

Q. In how many of these 600 places could you actually buy slips and plays? A. How many did I buy?

Q. Yes; in how many of them did you buy a play? A. I should judge in about 100 of them; the rest of them, I got slips from them, or something from them, and talked a while.

Q. You are known to most of them? A. Most of them I am known in.

Q. When you say you got slips, what do you mean by a slip? A. Where is that running slip?

Q. A running slip? A. There is one.

Q. And from how many of them did you get running slips? A. Most all of them.

Q. In other words, in over 500, or about 500, you got running slips? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And how many of those places did you visit where you did not get any at all? A. I don't suppose more than 50 of them, and then I would go in and talk, and see people buying; that is plain enough.

Q. How many of those 50 would be included in that statement? A. I seen a book or a slip, or seen them writing policy in every one of them.

Q. You swear to that? A. Yes, sir.

Q. In other words, you saw evidence there that if a policeman had seen, then it would have justified an arrest of the writer? A. Yes; well, the policeman might not have understood — well, he could not help it either; I understand how the game is run, you know; a policeman might see a man writing on a book, and he might not say it was a policy book, you know.

By Mr. Goff:

Q. But policy playing was indulged in in every one of those places that you have reported in your return? A. Yes, sir.

Q. We asked you a question or two about — A. I did not tell you about Captain Mertins.

Q. You omitted to tell us about that? A. Captain Mertins came — well, I don't remember now — it was just this last spring or winter when there was such a scurry around anyhow — Captain Mertins came around where I was, at 1464 Third avenue, and came there twice personally and came into Mr. Dore's house to tell us to close up and get out for a few days until everything blowed over; that was Captain Mertins.

Q. Speaking about Dore, was he a backer? A. No; he is a middle man.

Q. A middleman? A. Yes, sir; he opens books; he fits up a place, and opens a book, and gets a man to back it and gets so much of the earnings.

Q. You spoke of children going into these places; have there ever been any arrests made so far as your knowledge goes of children, or of policy players, for letting children into those places for playing policy? A. So far as my knowledge goes about four years ago, there was two Gerry men came around to this man Dore, and they were going to arrest him for giving a slip to a little boy — my little brother-in-law.

Q. Is this the little fellow in court? A. That is him; he was only about 10 years old then; and some lady down the street had given him a paper and money, and told him to go to Dore's, and she gave him a penny, so as to bring it back; the boy did not know what the paper was for, and Dick gave it to him, and it appears somebody complained on Dick for doing this; I don't know who it was, but two Gerry men came over and went to the boy's house and to his mother, and told her about it, and of course she knew nothing about it, and when the boy came home she corrected it and stopped it; Dick came very soon after, and he says, “Well,” — I won't mention the name — “Well, Mrs. —— he says, it just cost me $50 for giving those papers to little Johnnie; just $50,” he said, “I have to pay those Gerry men $50 to get out of it;” I says, “Don't let Johnnie go around there again;” she had been slightly acquainted with this Dore, and she had lived there for years, and he said, “Never let your boy come around again; I had to pay this man $50.”

Q. Did you try to subpoena Dore? A. Yes, sir; and a man went up there, and they told that Dore had gone to Kansas six weeks ago; I had tried to find him the last two or three nights, and my opinion is he is laying low somewhere.

By Senator Bradley:

Q. He is behind the door? A. Well, he is out of sight

By Mr. Goff:

Q. Is your wife, who is now in court — was she present? A. She was present when the two Gerry men went to her mother, and they had gotten the boy's name, and she was present when the Gerry men came up; I don't know whether she was present when Mr. Dore said to my mother-in-law that he paid the Gerry men; but my mother-in-law told me personally, and told me the whole circumstances that this man Dore had said it cost him $50.

Q. Was there ever any arrest or prosecution made against Dore for selling this little boy this slip? A. No, sir; not at that time.

Q. Or at any other time since? A. Not by the Gerry men; he has been arrested half a dozen times by the police.

Q. I mean for selling this little boy the slip? A. No, sir.

Q. The Gerry men went there? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did they take the little boy with them? A. No, sir; I think they did not see the boy; the boy was out at the time they came to the house; they had good evidence that this man Dore had sold to the boy to give to this lady down the street.

Chairman Lexow. — That is all.

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