a much better understanding of why there's no way we can send a letter like this.
That's generally how the conversation went.
Q I see. So, you, it sounds, like, Mr. Donoghue, to paraphrase, are the one very directly chastising, criticizing Mr. Clark, calling out the policy violation, and directing him to stand down whereas Mr. Rosen is more of a trying to find a way forward or trying to somehow placate Mr. Clark?
A Yes. I wouldn't say "placate" him because, as I said, DAG Rosen was our boss, and he was in charge of the situation. He was making the right decisions. I was more of the mind of just shutting Jeff Clark down. But he thought it was more appropriate to explain to him why he was wrong and move forward that way.
Q Did you tell him to focus on his portfolio and only his portfolio?
A Yes. I said he was—he was outside his lane. He had no responsibility for this stuff. He had no knowledge of this stuff. He'd never conducted an election investigation or any criminal investigation in his life. And he had no business sticking his nose into these matters when he had the Civil Division and those responsibilities.
Q Did you ask him why Congressman Perry was mentioning his name or was suggesting, saying things about him in your phone conversation?
A I recall saying at some point basically: Why the hell are we hearing your name from the President of the United States and a Congressman? What is going on?
And I was focused much more on the President than the Congressman. And that's when he relayed that he had been in contact with the President; he had been in the Oval Office. He didn't explain how he got there or exactly when he was there. Obviously, it was within the last few days, but I was focused much more on the President than on Congressman Perry.
Q Did the subject in this conversation, Mr. Donoghue, of the President
