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Cipollone also testified that he was "sure [he] conveyed" his views.[166] Indeed, other testimony from Cipollone indicates that Trump knew of Cipollone's view and suggests that Trump purposely excluded Cipollone from the meeting with Pence and Pence's General Counsel on January 4th.[167] Indeed, at one point, Cipollone confronted Eastman in the hallway outside the Oval Office and expressed his disapproval of and anger with Eastman's position. According to Jason Miller, "Pat Cipollone thought the idea was nutty and had at one point confronted Eastman basically with the same sentiment" outside the Oval Office.[168] Pat Cipollone did not deny having an angry confrontation with Eastman outside of the Oval Office—though he said he didn't have a specific recollection, he had no reason to contradict what Jason Miller said and, moreover, said that Eastman was aware of his views.[169]
Likewise, Eric Herschmann, another White House lawyer, expressed the same understanding that Eastman's plan "obviously made no sense" and "had no practical ability to work."[170] Herschmann also recounted telling Eastman directly that his plan was "completely crazy":
And I said to [Eastman], hold on a second, I want to understand what you're saying. You're saying you believe the Vice President, acting as President of the Senate, can be the sole decisionmaker as to, under your theory, who becomes the next President of the
