so when you joined at the President's invitation?
A That's right.
Q All right. And who was inside the meeting when you got there?
A When I entered the Oval Office, the President was behind the desk, and it was Pat Cipollone, Pat Philbin, a White House lawyer named Eric Herschmann, Jeff Clark, Jeff Rosen, Steve Engel, and then me.
Q Are you sure Mr. Herschmann was a White House lawyer?
A He was a lawyer who worked at the White House. I'm not—initially I thought he worked in the White House Counsel's Office, but I think later someone told me that wasn't the case. I don't remember. His role was never clear to me. I know he was a lawyer from New York. I know he had been a prosecutor at some point. But I don't know what his title exactly was. I'd seen him in some meetings previously, but I didn't know exactly what his role was.
Q Okay.
All right. And, again, no notes of this meeting. Is that right? You don't take notes—you were inside the Oval Office and, you indicated before, didn't take notes when you were in discussions inside that office.
A No.
Q All right. Well, tell us what you remember, then, about the conversation. What was the topic when you arrived, and how did it evolve from there?
A The meeting took about another 2-1/2 hours from the time I entered. It was entirely focused on whether there should be a DOJ leadership change. So the election allegations played into this, but they were more background than anything else.
And the President was basically trying to make a decision and letting everyone speak their minds. And it was a very blunt, intense conversation that took several
