Report from the Select Committee of the House of Lords, appointed to inquire into the present state of the Islands of New Zealand/Friday, 6 April 1838/John Flatt

by House of Lords

Layout 2

Mr. John Flatt.

Mr. John Flatt is called in, and further examined as follows:

Do you consider that if there were any Government established in New Zealand it would be right to fix or to inquire into the Titles of the British Subjects who now claim to have Land in that Country?

I think it would be quite essential.

Do you conceive it would be also essential, that in certain Parts of the Country that Districts should be assigned for any Natives, so that they should not be driven out of the Country by the Chiefs selling the whole of the Land?

If the Natives would cultivate it; but they are not in the habit of cultivating any more than is absolutely necessary.

Do you not think if the Progress of Civilization continues to increase, seeing the great Advantages the Europeans make by their Land; they would perhaps be induced to follow the Example of the Europeans?

I have no Doubt that they would; that they would be willing to purchase again in the same way as the Europeans.

How could they find the Money?

They would procure it by honest Labour, which they have done already in some Instances. I have known a New Zealander take 7l. to the Bay of Islands, to lay out in Articles for himself and his Family, which he had earned from the Missionaries and different Settlers; that Man I refer to was employed as a Carpenter.

When you employed native Labourers at Matamata, was there any Consent obtained from the head Chief for their Employment?

There was no Consent required; I hired them from their Friends, the same as I should in England.

In England you generally hire the Labourer himself?

Young Men we hired from their Parents.

Did you pay some Value to the Parents or Relations of the young Men for those Services?

No; except when a Slave was purchased, then there would be a Remuneration given to the Chief, and he would become the Property of the European; he would not expect so large a Payment as those that were not purchased. In other Cases it is the Practice to go to their native Places, and ask for Men that can work; and they come forward and offer themselves. The Parents and Friends are out of the Question; they would not object to it. If they did, that would put a Stop to further Proceedings.

Those Persons, if of full Age, have the Power of hiring themselves, without requiring the Consent of the Chief of the District?

We simply went to their native Village and hired them; there was no Objection made to it by any one.

It appears from some of the Evidence that there was an Instance of a Chief and his People, after they had sold their Lands, emigrating from that part of the Country to another; have you known any Instance of that?

It occurred at Kerikeri, where the Natives sold their Land, and emigrated to the East Cape. The Party I allude to was in connexion with the Ngapuhi, who reside at the Bay of Islands.

Is that a common Occurrence, or only an isolated Case?

I do not recollect any other Instance of the Kind.

When the Land has been purchased in the Manner you have described, by an Agreement with the Chiefs, what Means were taken of ascertaining the precise Boundaries, so that there should be afterwards no Dispute if another Person wished to purchase the adjacent Land?

I went round with Mr. Fairburn, on one Occasion, to inquire how far the Land extended, and as we were sitting in the native House the Natives remarked that it was up to such a Wood, and up to such a River, and up to the Outside of a certain Wood. In general the native Landmarks are to a certain Wood or a certain Creek, and if a River divides the Land, though the River may be serpentine, all the Land inside (that is to say, of the purchased

Side) would belong to the Purchaser.

Are those Boundaries described in the written Agreement?

Yes; the Names of Places are specified.

Are you aware of any Instance in which, when a Chief was going to sell his Land, an European laid claim to having previously purchased it under a written Agreement?

I am not aware of any European being present, and laying claim to it, on such an Occasion.

Do you suppose that if Persons purchased a Tract of Country from the Chiefs, and did not immediately occupy it, the Chiefs would afterwards permit them to return and exercise any Authority over it?

Yes.

Though it had remained unoccupied for a Year?

Yes. Most probably if he intended to leave it for a Time he would state that at the Time of the Purchase.

They would perfectly comprehend that?

Yes; that would probably be included in the Document.

You state that the Natives in the Bay of Islands were more immoral than the Natives in the Interior?

Yes.

Are those Natives in the Bay of Islands Christians or Heathens?

There is a striking Contrast amongst the Natives at the Bay of Islands. There are many Natives who will not listen at all to the Instruction of the Missionaries; there are others, again, at Paihia and Kanakana, and other Places, who will listen to the Instructions of the Missionary Body.

Are the Heathens of the Interior more moral Persons than the native Christians who reside in the Bay of Islands?

Not more moral than those who are with and under Missionary Instruction, but more moral than those who are living in such a disgraceful Way, by going on board the Ships, and have been corrupted and degraded by our own Countrymen.

Those are not professed Christians?

No; and it is obvious to me that they are far worse than those in the Interior, both Male and Female, but especially the Females.

Did you reside in the Bay of Islands?

Yes; Nine Months.

Were there any English Men of War there during that Time?

There was an English Man of War put in just before I left; I think it was His Majesty's Ship the Zebra, but I am not confident as to the Name of the Ship.

Did the Crew of that Vessel behave in the same sort of way as the Crew of the Whalers?

I did not see or hear of any Improprieties; the Captain and his Officers, with some of the Crew, came ashore on Sunday to Paihia Chapel.

You do not know whether the Natives can distinguish at all between the Conduct of English Ships of War and of Merchant Ships?

I am not aware. I should consider that they would, as every thing is so orderly on board a Man of War; whilst, on the contrary, the Crews of the Merchant Ships are under no Control when on shore at the Bay of Islands.

You think that if a Man of War was stationed there her Crew would not set so bad an Example as the Crews of those Whalers?

I do not think the Commander would permit it.

You stated that there were Four or Five hundred runaway Convicts or Seamen?

Yes, about the Northward of the River Thames; living with the native Females in the most disgraceful Way.

Do they live in considerable Communities together, or are they scattered among the Natives?

They are scattered among the Natives, and, if any thing, more degraded than the Natives.

Are any of them regularly married to native Women?

Some few are.

Are you aware whether they have many Children, either by regular Marriages or by Intercourse?

They have Children; some few Half Casts; but not many.

Is that a Race of Persons likely to increase by Descent?

Yes, I should consider so. Some few of the trading Europeans have been married to the Natives. I was present at a Marriage at the Wesleyan Settlement just before I left.

Do not those native Women who have Children very often destroy them?

I never met with an Instance, but it may be the Case. There is no Half Cast in the Interior; they may sometimes be killed, but I have not seen or heard of any thing of the Sort in the Interior.

Do you consider that if a Resident were empowered to arrest and transport those Persons who commit Acts of Violence against each other or against the Natives that would be likely considerably to decrease the Number of them?

There would be some little Difficulty in arresting them, they would flee among the Natives.

Would you think if the Resident had Authority from the Crown of England to arrest and punish those People, the native Chiefs would assist him in taking up Persons who had been guilty of Acts of Violence?

Yes; he would have to give a small Payment; that would be sufficient to bring them up to his Door. If Mr. Busby was to state to a young Chief (the old Chiefs might not be so attentive) that he would give him a Blanket if he got such a Man who had committed an Offence, he would get sufficient Force, and bring him up with his Hands tied behind him.

Would he bring any Man up, whether he had committed any Offence or not, for a Blanket?

Yes; if they were told so by any Person whom they considered a Gentleman they would consider that he had committed something, though they were not acquainted with it; they would consider him as a guilty Man, and conceive that there was a just Reason for the Order.

If the Resident sent Persons known to be authorized by him into the Country to arrest those People, would the Chiefs interfere to prevent it?

They would not prevent it; they would assist.

If the Resident demanded an Offender of the Chiefs, or sent a small Number to apprehend him, would the Natives interfere, by Force prevent the Apprehension?

No; the Natives would not interfere.

With regard to the Traders who are settled in the Northern Part of New Zealand, what may be their Number?

I believe the Number is greater than has been stated; they are settled in every Bay; not only in the Northern Bays but the Southern Island.

Will you confine yourself, at first, to the Northern Island?

I cannot give a distinct Statement of the Number of them.

A Witness has stated that he did not consider the Traders in the Bay of Islands as more than five or Six?

Not the respectable Traders in the Bay of Islands; only the runaway Convicts have begun carrying on Trade to a large Extent, and some of the Sailors as well.

Do you think there are as many as Fifty or Sixty respectable Traders in the Bay of Islands?

No; but there may be that Number including all the Stations. There are some in the Neighbourhood of the Wesleyan Station.

As to the Proprietors of Land; are there any Europeans who are Proprietors of Land except the Missionaries?

Yes, some.

Are there many?

No, not many that I am acquainted with; but the major Part of my Time has been spent in the Interior.

Are there any other Descriptions of Europeans except Missionaries, Traders, and Runaways, and their Families?

No.

Have you known any Instances of Natives being employed by Europeans to guard their Houses?

We consider the Natives employed round the Missionary Stations to be a Protection.

You were in New Zealand in the Autumn of 1835?

I was.

About that Time did any formal Acknowledgment of the Independence of the Island take place in the Presence of Mr. Busby?

I heard of it in consequence of Charles Baron De Thierry being there; I saw the Account in private Letters; I had Letters myself concerning it.

There was a formal Declaration of Independence?

Yes; it was drawn up by Mr. Busby.

Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee what you know upon the Subject?

There was a Circular drawn up and printed by Mr. Colenso, the Church Missionary Printer, calling upon the Chiefs to prevent the landing of Baron Charles de Thierry; but any thing further I cannot state.

There was a Petition to the King, signed by certain Settlers in New Zealand, in the course of the Year 1836, for Protection; you signed that Petition, did you not?

I did; at Tauranga in the Bay of Plenty.

Was that sent to you by any body?

It was brought round by the Rev. Henry Williams.

Was he the principal Mover in that?

Not the Principal, but he was one of the Movers among the Missionary Body.

Do you know others who moved in it?

No; only as far as the Missionary Body were concerned. Some few of the Missionary Body had not seen it, being at Manukau.

It appears that a good many signed with their Marks; what Description of Persons were those?

Tradesmen, Carpenters, and Blacksmiths, who have left North American and other Vessels for the Purpose of building Houses, who had not been educated.

Some of those Persons were not Subjects of the King of England?

Some of them were North Americans.

The principal Object of that Petition was for Protection against the threatened Usurpation or Power of a certain Baron Charles De Thierry?

Yes; that was one Object.

And also for Protection against such of Her Majesty's Subjects who have committed all kinds of Depredations upon others of Her Majesty's Subjects?

Yes.

Do you recollect the Prayer of the Petition, generally; was it for Protection, or for any specific Plan?

I read it over at Tauranga; I forget the Particulars of it.

As far as you recollect, does it contain any Prayer to the King, that he would authorize any Persons to form a Colony and Government in New Zealand?

I think that they wished for such a Thing, but they were aware that His Majesty had come to the Determination not to increase His Colonies; that has been repeatedly the Conversation of the Missionary Bodies, that they had understood that His Majesty would not increase them.

What did you understand by the Word “Protection,” for which you prayed?

We prayed for Protection from our own Countrymen and from Baron Charles De Thierry.

Generally, in such a way as His Majesty might think fit to grant it?

Yes; that was left to His Majesty.

You did not point, in special Words, any particular Plan?

I do not recollect at this Distance of Time the particular Plan.

Is that now shown to you the Document you signed? (A Paper being shown to the Witness.)

That is a correct Copy.

That Petition prays, generally, for such Protection as His Majesty may be pleased to grant?

Yes.

Who was Baron Charles De Thierry, at whom you were so much alarmed?

We were told he was a French General.

Was that the Character he took to himself?

That was the Character we called him by.

Had he any Allies among the native Chiefs?

No. He sent some written Documents to the Missionaries and to Mr. Busby, stating that he had purchased a large Tract of Land on the Western Coast.

Did you expect him to come and take Possession of it by Force?

He threatened to come, but he never came. Tarcha, one of the head Chiefs in the Bay of Islands, and a noted Savage, said if he came he would kill him and eat him.

Have you any Intention of returning to New Zealand?

I should wish to return.

You have not at present made up your Mind to go out in any Situation?

If there is an Opening I will go, and make myself generally useful as heretofore.

Do you mean in connexion with the Church Missionary Society?

No; but still in the Missionary Work.

What is the Proportion of Population of Foreigners, Europeans, and Subjects of England in New Zealand?

I do not know; we hardly knew how to distinguish.

Are there Frenchmen and Americans?

There are very few Frenchmen; there are some few North Americans, but we do not distinguish between the North Americans and the English; there are very few Frenchmen; there is a French Doctor in the Bay of Islands.

Have they no Settlement of their own, apart from the English?

I am not aware of any.

The Natives make no Distinction between them?

I have not heard that they have. I do not think that they are aware of it; they class all under the Head of Europeans.

Did they consider Baron Charles De Thierry as a Countryman of yours?

No; they called him Kingi Pukanoa; Pukanoa means taking false Leave,– a King coming without Leave.

You said you did not know the Number of Settlers; do you know, in fact, whether they are increasing or not in the Island?

They are increasing rapidly. This I have from Report; I have not been ashore at all the Places; but I have very good Authority for this, from the Information I have received from the Missionary Body, that they are increasing

rapidly.

Do you know to what Extent they are increasing?

No; having been so much in the Interior I did not see so much of them.

Is there a great Disproportion between the Sexes?

I likewise have been informed that there are Ten European Men to One Female, and even more than that.

Have the Disorders which have prevailed to such an Extent in the Island increased with the Population?

I am informed so.

That they are more frequent now than they were a short Time ago?

They increase, I believe, every Day.

With respect to the Purchase of Land; has it been steadily progressive from Year to Year?

Yes, I believe so.

At the Close of the Year there is a good deal more than at the Beginning of it; it is going on in a certain Ratio from Year to Year?

Yes; I consider by this Time the Island of Waiheke in the River Thames is purchased, and the Island of Wakatiwai.

Do you conceive that as Things are the Acquisition of Land will go on till it has to a great Extent covered the Island?

If Things are left in their present State the whole Northern Island will shortly be in the Possession of the Europeans, the North Americans classing themselves with the Europeans.

So that, in fact, if Things were left in the Situation in which they are, the Land will be taken almost entirely out of the Possession of the Natives?

Yes; the whole Northern Island, and the smaller Islands adjoining thereto.

They have considerable Intercourse with Australia, have they not; sending Articles there?

Yes.

Is that principally Timber?

Timber and Flax and Pork.

Do they receive from Australia British Articles sent there?

Either from Australia or from England; Blankets, Axes, Adzes, Knives, Razors, and many other Articles.

Muskets and Powder?

Yes; those are confined to Europeans, who trade in those Things. The Missionaries do not distribute any Guns nor Powder nor Ball among them.

Do they not supply South America with Timber for Shipping sometimes?

I have been informed that some Timber has been taken from Hokianga to Rio Janeiro; last August; that they had purchased some Timber from the Ship Lord Goderich.

There is good deal more Rain in the Island than there is in Australia, is there not; it is not subject to the same Drought?

No; it is not subject to the same Drought.

Would it, in consequence of that, become of much Importance as a Colony?

Very great for Agriculture.

You state that you think very soon the whole of the Northern Island will fall into the Possession of Europeans?

Yes; in the course of a few Years more.

Are there at present any considerable Number of Europeans settled South of Matamata?

Yes; I made very strict Inquiry when on board the Columbine (the Society's Schooner). The Steward of that Schooner had formerly lived Two Years on the South Island, and had frequently visited the fine Bays of that Island for the Purpose of buying Flax and Pork. He told me that there were Europeans all round the Coast of both Islands.

The greater Number of Europeans are about the Bay of Islands and the Parts North of Matamata, are they not?

Yes; there is most Trade going on there.

Do you know what Sort of Timber it was that was sent to Rio Janeiro?

The Kauri, such as is brought to England for the Use of Her Majesty's Navy. I saw the Gentleman who purchased it at Rio Janeiro.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.