Index talk:Howells, Stops of Various Quills, 1895

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There is also some discussion about formatting for this project here.

Print test?[edit]

Some formatting issues I find when printing/print previewing poetry pages:

Image centering[edit]

  • Images don't render as centered (when printed/print previewed) even when formatted in this way:
[[File:Howells, Stops of Various Quills, 1895 009 large a.jpg|center|325px]]
But they are when formatted this way:
{{c|[[File:Howells, Stops of Various Quills, 1895 009 large a.jpg|325px]]}}

Text wrapping due to drop-initial[edit]

UPDATE

Trailing gaps work best to solve the text-wrapping issue; but while it solves the problem here on WS and when printing/previewing, it fails to solve text-wrapping issues in PDF rendering. Londonjackbooks (talk) 14:16, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
  • [unwanted] Text-wrapping often occurs with some drop-initial formatting (usu. with poetry), and unless you force the width, the alignment/indentation will be off... The following will not render correctly (when being viewed or when being printed):
{{block center/s}}<poem>
{{c|{{x-larger|COMPANY}}}}
{{drop initial|[[File:Howells, Stops of Various Quills, 1895 011 large b.jpg|55px]]}}{{larger|{{gap|2px}}THOUGHT, "How terrible, if I were seen
Just as in will and deed I had always been!
And if this were the fate that I must face. . .}}
</poem>{{block center/e}}

but it will work when formatted this way:
  
{{block center/s|width=425}}<poem>
{{c|{{x-larger|COMPANY}}}}
{{drop initial|[[File:Howells, Stops of Various Quills, 1895 011 large b.jpg|55px]]}}{{larger|{{gap|2px}}THOUGHT, "How terrible, if I were seen
Just as in will and deed I had always been!
And if this were the fate that I must face. . .}}
</poem>{{block center/e}}

Indentation[edit]

UPDATE

In defense of the traditional: While tedious, non-breaking spaces work best all-around (accompanied with breaks),—as opposed to using the poem tag and {{gap}} template. Gaps aren't recognized when converting WS pages to PDF (only a single, almost unnoticeable space is rendered). The poem tag, gap, etc. are GREAT,—except if you want the work to look nice when converted to PDF. Londonjackbooks (talk) 14:44, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I think manual indentation works best... The use of a colon, however,:

Of childhood and my children's childhood I was 
:glad,
With the wild rapture of the Fall,
looks good in view mode, but when printed, it creates extra empty line spaces above and below the line on which it is used... {{gap}} works, but I find it's not as accurate as manually indenting if you want more control...

Question[edit]

I think it's nice for the text to be able to pass a "print test"...WS users have the option of printing or downloading pages to pdf, so it would seem that a nice printout would be desirable... Incidentally, some of the WS formatting doesn't render very well when converted to pdf, like drop-initial, some tables, etc... My question is, how concerned should we be about passing a "print test"? What issues should I look for, and which ones should I just ignore? Thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 03:11, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

An excellent question, so I will bang my drum again. We should be very concerned, I think, it is an important principle at all the sister sites that the coding be simple to use, render correctly, and is likely to be stable. This is at odds with those who like complexity and arcane workarounds, it is very 'boyish' and a barrier to contributing to the site; thus the term 'wikisourcerer', a clever coder who knows the secrets of making things 'work'.
  • Image centering: a more code savvy user has recommended that method of centering images.
  • Drop initial: this has changed a number of times, and there seems to have been little regard for the consequences. Users reckon there is a better way, boldly change and tweak it to suit it rendering on their screen, and it breaks earlier usage. The template pushed the limits of our software anyway, and it has never behaved in a predictable way. I have given up using it, but a solution to force the width is to add a trailing {{gap}} to the longest line, making it longer than the first line.
  • Indentation: The line has been wrapped in the original printing, I think that should be ignored as a constraint of that printing. Let it go:
Of childhood and my children's childhood I was glad,
With the wild rapture of the Fall,

The poem tag seems simple, but the internals are horribly convoluted: it is yet another thing that can go wrong. Leading spaces are 'bad', hard to wrangle, and it doesn't look right anyway. Use gap and breaks.

Some say that we shall never see him, and some<br />
That we shall see him elsewhere, and then know<br />
{{gap}}Why we were bid.  How long I am to stay<br />
{{gap}}I have not the least notion.  None, they say,<br />

WYSIWYG! The spacing from the margin will always be 2em, 12 to 32 leading spaces will never render the same way. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 06:13, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Example[edit]

Ok. The following poem represents most, if not all, of the issues addressed above... I have applied your recommendations, and I think I'm sold... It print previews well, and looks much better converted to pdf; but indentation is barely noticeable when rendered in pdf... Otherwise, good to go. I did have to make the trailing {{gap}} longer, but I don't think that will cause a formatting issue...?

{{c|[[File:Howells, Stops of Various Quills, 1895 009 large a.jpg|center|325px]]}}
<br />
{{block center/s}}
{{c|{{x-larger|THE BEWILDERED GUEST}}}}
<br />
{{drop initial|[[File:Howells, Stops of Various Quills, 1895 009 large b.jpg|50px]]}} <!-- No line break here in orig; just here in this preview box -->
{{larger|{{gap|2px}}WAS not asked if I should like to come.{{gap|5em}}<br />
{{gap}}I have not seen my host here since I came,<br />
{{gap}}Or had a word of welcome in his name.<br />
Some say that we shall never see him, and some<br />
That we shall see him elsewhere, and then know<br />
{{gap}}Why we were bid.  How long I am to stay<br />
{{gap}}I have not the least notion.  None, they say,<br />
Was ever told when he should come or go.<br />
But every now and then there bursts upon<br />
{{gap}}The song and mirth a lamentable noise,<br />
{{gap}}A sound of shrieks and sobs, that strikes our joys<br />
Dumb in our breasts; and then, some one is gone.<br />
They say we meet him.  None knows where or when.<br />
We know we shall not meet him here again.}}<br />
<br />
{{c|[[File:Howells, Stops of Various Quills, 1895 009 large c.jpg|center|175px]]}}
{{block center/e}}
Howells, Stops of Various Quills, 1895 009 large a.jpg


THE BEWILDERED GUEST


Howells, Stops of Various Quills, 1895 009 large b.jpg WAS not asked if I should like to come. 
 I have not seen my host here since I came,
 Or had a word of welcome in his name.
Some say that we shall never see him, and some
That we shall see him elsewhere, and then know
 Why we were bid. How long I am to stay
 I have not the least notion. None, they say,
Was ever told when he should come or go.
But every now and then there bursts upon
 The song and mirth a lamentable noise,
 A sound of shrieks and sobs, that strikes our joys
Dumb in our breasts; and then, some one is gone.
They say we meet him. None knows where or when.
We know we shall not meet him here again.


Howells, Stops of Various Quills, 1895 009 large c.jpg

afterthought...[edit]

What is the difference between <br /> and </br> ? Londonjackbooks (talk) 13:29, 23 March 2011 (UTC) got it... Londonjackbooks (talk) 02:30, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

indentation rendering for pdf conversion[edit]

As ugly and cumbersome as it may be, it seems that using non-breaking spaces is the solution if you want indentation to be visible when viewing, printing, and in pdf conversion. When converting to pdf, all other indentation formats that I have tried/know of does not render in the end as appearing indented except when using non-breaking spaces (5-in-a-row is comparable to three manually placed spaces, I think). Londonjackbooks (talk) 20:03, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

example[edit]

Convert this page to pdf using the download to pdf link to the left. Compare the version above with the one below where I have substituted non-breaking spaces for gaps, and see the difference. I think, though, that I might also need to do the same in the first line where I have a trailing gap... We'll see...:

THE BEWILDERED GUEST


Howells, Stops of Various Quills, 1895 009 large b.jpgWAS not asked if I should like to come.          
     I have not seen my host here since I came,
     Or had a word of welcome in his name.
Some say that we shall never see him, and some
That we shall see him elsewhere, and then know
     Why we were bid. How long I am to stay
     I have not the least notion. None, they say,
Was ever told when he should come or go.
But every now and then there bursts upon
     The song and mirth a lamentable noise,
     A sound of shrieks and sobs, that strikes our joys
Dumb in our breasts; and then, some one is gone.
They say we meet him. None knows where or when.
We know we shall not meet him here again.


Howells, Stops of Various Quills, 1895 009 large c.jpg

What I have come up with[edit]

{{gap}} solves the problem in WS layout and in print preview, but still presents text-wrapping issues when converted to pdf format (See: using {{gap}} further down below)... The only remedy I could come up with is using a non-breaking spaces remedy (see presentation below). Billinghurst once posed the question to me: "author's intent or the typographers? I don't feel that we should be held to a typography limitation." But perhaps only in the case of pdf coversion, we just might be met with a typography limitation...? While WS is not held to such limitation, it seems that pdf conversions are. Any thoughts? Gap or non-breaking spaces? If the latter, then do I just ignore the text wrapping in pdf rendering and be satisfied with correct indentation? [updated] Londonjackbooks (talk) 03:50, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Nbsp as remedy.jpg

previews using above formatting[edit]

Nbsp print preview.jpg Nbsp pdf preview.jpg

Gap as remedy.jpg

previews using above formatting[edit]

Gap print preview.jpg Gap pdf preview.jpg

format, 'standardisation', and precedent as FT[edit]

Mumblemumble—larger than what?—mumblemumble—where are the page numbers?-mumblemumble… CYGNIS INSIGNIS 17:33, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I'll take a stab at it:

  1. Format: Are you refering to the {{larger}} formatting? The text in the original source was "larger than..." what is found in most texts... It was a judgment call on my part (looking at it in a purely "artistic" way as opposed to a technical way). But you are correct (if I read you correctly) that compared with itself, it really *can't* be "larger"!
  2. Standardization: With regard to page numbers, the text is unpaginated... Are you referring to page numbers in the Mainspace that link back to the Index:page (I can only guess if this is what you mean)?...
  3. Precedent: I leave all my work here to the "Powers that be" (i.e., those with more technical knowledge and WS "tools" than I have at my disposal). Londonjackbooks (talk) 01:36, 16 July 2011 (UTC)