Wikisource talk:Scriptorium/WCR

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Wiki Campus Radio - Nov 11th -Armistice Day[edit]

Wiki Campus Radio is considering assembling a playlist of suitable content for Armistice Day (Nov 11th).

The current plan is a mixture of War Poets (if they are PD) and possibly some suitable novel extrcats from the period. Musically, I am thinking that there are some Sombre marches that could be used.

However, such a playlist would need to be very carefully constructed, and the input of Wikisource contributors would be appreciated. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:36, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Additonal note: Because of Copyright rules in the US/UK, Material suggested should ideally be:

  • Official sources contempary with the appropriate period. (US Federal Sources are PD, and British Crown Copyright generally lasts 50 years from publication.)
  • Public Domain sources (Works whose authors died before 1937,or specfically relaseed as PD)
  • Modern material in the Public Domain, or under 'free' licenses. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:55, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
This weeks WS:COTW is Author:John McCrae (1872-1918), and we have lots of existing content that needs to be collated. Should we create Wikisource:War poetry ? --John Vandenberg (chat) 05:56, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Support creation of Wikisource:War poetry , but it should not be limited to Just the Great war, there was poetry written about earlier conflicts, as well as music.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:25, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
  • One needn't be limited to the sombre and maudlin. There were some great barrack room ditties. An optimistic and lively beat could be a motivating factor for the military; dirges that reminded soldiers of everything that was wrong about war could only depress them and diminish their willingness to fight. Eclecticology (talk) 07:15, 29 October 2008 (UTC).
A very very good point, and there was IIRC (at least as far as Britian was concerned) a tradition of satire of higher officers, by lower ranks in song.. Any suggested tracks? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Barrack-Room Ballads for example ;) Sherurcij Collaboration of the Week: Author:John McCrae (1872-1918) 16:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes, indeed. One interesting book that I have is Anthony Hopkins' (not the famous actor) Songs from the Front and Rear: Canadian Servicemen's Songs of the Second World War, Hurtig, 1979. It includes 30 verses of the classic, "North Atlantic Squadron." It also includes the popular version of w:Hitler Has Only Got One Ball. Although the book itself is copyright, most of the songs in it are not copyrightable since they mostly spread by word of mouth, and were freely adapted by the soldiers to suit the circumstances and the imagination of whoever happened to be there who might be encouraged to add his own verse. Eclecticology (talk) 17:42, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, I'm not sure Wikisource/Commons (and by extension WCR) can accept material that's ambiguous like that, especially material especially if it's in a published collection (from 1979). In additon, some of the material might

not be 'clean' for WCR purposes sadly, but if you can track down the histories further and confirm the PD status of any of them, they can at least be considered. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:45, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

What does commons have to do with this? The 1979 book is indeed copyright but that does not imply that any individual song within it is copyright. The authors of the book themselves recognize that the composer of many of these songs is untraceable. This is typical of true folk songs. These songs cannot be tracked down through published sources because at an earlier time the language and subject matter was unacceptable for polite company. What makes you think that they were ever copyright in the first place? Eclecticology (talk) 08:53, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, Good points. I've also been advised some 'soilders' songs might not be appropriate because of content issues, It was noted that a November 11th playlist would need to be respectful, and not in poor taste.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I suppose that some might seem disrespectful to some. For others it might bring back memories of singing together in their only happy moments in the war. Eclecticology (talk) 22:08, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I have a possible answer to this, I might move the intended airdate to Nov 12th, which allows for the 'offical' ceromonies (which conventional media will be covering) on the 11th, and gives slightly more leeway in content terms...
I'll also see if a local folk music society has any suggestions as well, particularly in relation to vaguely millitary related folk music pre Great war, IIRC Some material going back to the Napoleonic era was still in 'popular' use albeit adapted..

Another area of material to be considered is possibly that held by other language Wikisource. Does de hold anything relevant? I am not a German speaker, so it would need someone that is to make approaches in this regard.

A quick note that come November 4th, we should update the {{New texts}} banner with eight new War texts; they could be from the Great War, or from any of the Wikisource:Wars Sherurcij Collaboration of the Week: Author:John McCrae (1872-1918) 16:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
OK, following a disscussion on the IRC channel, I almost certainly won't be able to use any French material from the period, owing to an extended copyright term in respect of works by those who died during the war. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:09, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Here are three volumes of poems by various authors.

John Vandenberg (chat) 07:33, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

What are the (C) rules on anthologies in Canada?, I was working roughly on authour+70 in respect of indvidual poems, barring 'work-for-hire' rules where I was using creation+90. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:57, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Canada uses life + 50; corporate or anonymous works would be at publication + 50. Anthologies do not receive any special treatment; anthologists would have copyright on their additional material and compilation copyrights, but the individual elements in the anthology need to each be considered separately. Eclecticology (talk) 22:08, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Are sure it's 50? I though Canada followed EU? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes, in Canadian law, it is life + 50 years. Yann (talk) 23:40, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
OK, So I'll have to check indvidual works, as I'm not sure what the situation on 'shorter-term' here in the UK is. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:26, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Aribtray break to aid editing[edit]

In terms of possible material, the following was a list suggested to me by others, (NB These should be respectful and not in bad taste), I'd appreciate clarifications on authors, dates, copyrights and suitability.

(NB. Whilst the originals may be out of copyright, specfic arrangments or recordings may not be.)

  • "I Vow to thee my country" -Poem : Sir Cecil Arthur Spring-Rice GCMG GCVO (1859-02-27 – 1918-02-14) . Music is (Thaxted movment

of Jupiter) by Gustav Theodore Holst (21 September 1874 – 25 May 1934))

  • The Poem is a British copyright of 1908, PD in US, and EU.
    Music is by Holst (1925), This is PD in EU, but someone should check in respect of US.
    NB This is a MUST have as the Wikipedia entry notes it use for Armistice Day

Hymns:

  • 'Onward Christian Soildiers' - S. Baring Gould (1834-1924), Arthur-Sullivan(1842-1900)

Britsh Copyright of 1871 (Lyrics and Music), PD in US and EU.

  • 'To Be a Pilgirm' - John Bunyan 1628-1688
PD in US and EU
  • 'O God Our Help in Ages past' - Lyrics - Issac Watts (1674-1748) Music commonly used by William Croft (1678-1728)
Lyrics PD in US and EU, Croft music is PD in US and EU
  • 'Battle Hymn of the Republic' - Julia Ward Howe (1819,1910)
US Copyright of 1861 - PD in US and EU (by dates shown)

Patriotic:

  • Rule Britannia , James Thomson (1700-09-11 – 1748-08-27) ,music Thomas Augustine Arne (12 March 1710 – 5 March 1778)
PD in US and EU
  • The British Grenadiers
  •  :17th century marching song
  •  :: My source information says 18th Century traditional, so out of copyright in EU,US in respect of original,


  • Men of Harlech - (But NOT the version used on Zulu)
  •  :original words from 1860s
  •  : Also version by Thomas Oliphant (1799-1873)


Popular/Folk music of the period (or earlier) (Ideally this should be in a seperate programming block):

  • My Ain Folk
  • When You Come Home - 1912
  • Keep the Home fires burning -Lenea Gilbert Ford (music Ivan Novello)
    Music is still copyright in EU, Anyone want to check for a renewal/revival in the US?
  • Lili Marlene (check spelling)
    Original German from 1940; English version shortly after, possibly on commission from UK government; Crown copyright?
    Hmm- Maybe out of period..
  • "Two Little Boys"
  • Is the song out of (C)- I know the Rolf Harris recording is definitely NOT ?
  •  : Not out of copyright in the EU, see Wikipedia Entry for w:Two_Little_Boys and w:Edward Madden

Unsorted:

  • "When Johnny comes Marching home", - Although I thought this was one later?
    Dates back to US Civil War.
  • "Yellow Ribbon"? - This one needs checking for sutiability, as someone told me it wasn't to do with soilders at all
    music is 19th century cadence tune; words from 1917, but best known words from 1949 movie.
  •  :: Hmm, The 1949 version wouldn't be usable... Is the 1917 version relevant?
  • "The Scottish Soldier"

* "There's a long long trail a winding"

  • 'Over the hills and Far away'
  •  : Original is not war related, 18th century verison exists, The Tams Version for sharpe is a modern copyright.
  •  : If this is on wikisource, I may be able to write a 'Great War' set of lyrics for it... based on the 17th century version...
  •  :: I have some possible new lyrics for this...
  • If - (Kipling Poem)

Do you have any more?

I would also be interested to note if anyone has some suitable biblical readings that could be included (NB: It was NOT intended to air religious programming as SUCH on WCR) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


In terms of earlier folk music - someone suggest this list (clarifications also requested):

* Admiral Benbow
* Malt's Come Down
* Flodden Field
* The Burial of Sir John Moore after Corunna
* Where Golden Grass doth Grow

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

aribtary break to aid editing[edit]

Second run through my sources music of the period (and earlier still in use) :
Whilst the original does not appear to be in copyright in the EU or the US, The version sung by w:Florrie Forde may still

be subject to copyright restrictions, especially in respect of modern arrangments.

  • 'Ye Mariners of England' - Thomas Campbell (1777-1844)
  • 'All the Nice Girls love a Sailor' - A.J. Mills - work is dated 1909
  • 'Johnny I hardly knew ye' - Listed as anon - Scots origins from the language used
  • 'Boots' - Rudyrad Kipling - 1865-1936
  • 'The Yeoman of England' - Basil Hood -
  •  :No dates given in the source I have, Can someone provide this?
  • Take me Back to Dear Old Blighty - A.J. Mills, Fred Godfrey,Bennet Scot - 1916
    No information found so far...

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Suggest Oh How I Hate to Get up in the Morning. Includes a restored historic recording and a restored sheet music cover. Irving Berlin composed it while he was in the U.S. Army in 1918. Also Over There (has music--Enrico Caruso with very strange attempts at English pronunciation). Durova (talk) 19:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Sadly Despite both being excellent suggestions , both works are still copyright in the EU. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:43, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Why would they? Both were originally published in the United States; EU law recognizes the rule of the shorter term, does it not? Durova (talk) 20:54, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I did try to check this, but didn't get a definitive answer. If EU countries DO recognise shorter term then that solves a lot of issues. In respect of Irving Berlin, thier date of death according to Wikipedia is 1989, So their works by my reasoning would still be subject to copyright,(unless as you say EU recognises shorter term or PD in country of origin). In respect of 'Over There', whilst the Caruso music may be out of copyright(Itallian so assuming EU term length), the lyrics written by George M. Cohan ((1878-07-03 – 1942-11-05) may be in the group of works whose copyright was extended in 1996. Hmm, Someone needs to check the renewals database. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:46, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Well, Commons has a policy of honoring the copyright law of the United States plus that of any other country that has a legitimate claim on a work. These files are hosted at Commons (partly because I put them there) as parts of large and growing collections that would be severely affected if the EU life + 70 rule applied. To the best of my knowledge there's no reason to suppose that EU law intervenes here. Durova (talk) 22:19, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Assusming Cohan was a US Citzien and EU repsects shorter term, then I don't see an issue if it's re-recorded.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:47, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Work by Irving Berlin , will need further checks made. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:47, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
What further check could be necessary? Citizenship itself isn't pertinent (although fwiw Berlin became a naturalized U.S. citizen before composing the song--that's one reason he got drafted into the U.S. Army and wrote it). Durova (talk) 00:27, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Have located a site containing some possible titles for further checking.. -http://www.firstworldwar.com/audio/index.htm ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:07, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Index:Armistice Day.djvu has been checked for copyright renewal, and is in the process of being uploaded to Wikisource. It contains a wide array of sources and commentary. John Vandenberg (chat) 13:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, from looking at the work, it's a 1927 US Copyright, The notice inside appears to attribute the publishers rather than the authours meaning that it may be under a corporate copyright in the US.(in respect of the collective work), In respect of the EU,

since one of the authours survived until 1967, there maybe an extant copyright by EU rules. Sorry to be negative, but I like to be sure of material that was being used. Indivdual works though may be PD in US. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Winter Festivals[edit]

Opening disscussions concerning WCR programming for the Winter Festivals season. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 01:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

In terms of material on other language Wikisource

* de : http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Weihnachten

At the de-site are also a few texts from other wikisources, such as A Christmas Carol and Is there a Santa Claus?. --Tolanor (talk) 01:12, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

List of Myths and Legend transalations in PD.[edit]

Any ideas people?

Sfan00 IMG (talk) 13:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)