?2 RECORDS OF THE FEDERAL CONVENTION Saturday MADISON ?/?gua? ?8 Mr Madison thought the regulation of the Militia naturally appertaining to the authority charged with the public defence. It did not seem in its nature to be divisible between two dis- tinct authorities. If the States would trust the Genl. Govt. with a power over the public treasure, they would from the same consideration of necessity grant it the direction of the public force. Those who had a full view of the public situa- tion wd. from a sense of the danger, guard agst. it: the States would not be separately impressed with the general situation, nor have the due confidence in the concurrent exertions of each other. Mr. Elseworth- considered the idea of a select militia as impracticable; & if it were not it would be followed by a ruin- ous declension of the great body of the Militia. The States will never submit to the same militia laws. Three or four shilling's as a penalty will enforce obedience better in New England, than forty lashes in some other places. Mr. Pinkhey thought the power such an one as could not be abused, and that the States would see the necessity of surrendering it. He had however but a scanty faith in Militia. There must be <also) a real military force- This alone can (effectually answer the purpose.) The United States had been making an experiment without it, and we see the consequence in their rapid approaches toward anarchy.* Mr Sherman, took notice that the States might want their Militia for defence agst invasions and insurrections, and for enforcing obedience to their laws. They will not give up this point- In giving up that of taxation, they retain a con- current power of raising money for their own use. Mr. Gerry thought this the last point remaining to be sur- rendered. If it be agreed to by the Convention, the plan will have as black a mark as was set on Cain. He had no such confidence in the Genl. Govt. as some Gentlemen possessed, and believed it would be found that the States have not. Col. Mason. thought there was great weight in the remarks of Mr. Sherman-and moved an exception to his motion
- (This had reference to the disorders particularly which had occurred in Massa-
chts. which had called for the interposition of the federal troops.)
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