User talk:Ludwig van B. D. Beethoven

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{{afd-merged-from|Ludwig van Beethoven's religious views|Ludwig van Beethoven's religious views (3rd nomination)|04 November 2011}}

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[[Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive1|Archive 1:  start through June 2006]]<br>
[[Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive2|Archive 2:  Jul 2006 through Feb 2007]]<br>
[[Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive 3|Archive 3:  Feb 2007 through June 2008]]<br>
[[Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive 4|Archive 4:  June 2008 through January 2009]]<br>
[[Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive 5|Archive 5:  Since January 2009]]<br>
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Cause of deafness[edit]

According to many medical authors, Ludwig van Beethoven was autopsied in Vienna on March 27, 1827 by Karl Rokitansky, which identified a “uniformly dense skull vault and thick and shriveled auditory nerves”, consistent with Paget's disease of bone. This was the cause of Beethoven‘s deafness. 1

1 - Creativity and chronic disease Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) - West J Med. 2001 November; 175(5): 298

German pronunciation[edit]

In reference to Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive 4#Pronunciation of Beethoven's name (IPA): The pronunciation with [k] is not wrong. It's entirely standard. Both [k] and [ç] are possible in the ending -ig; [k] is the typical pronunciation in the south – including but not limited to Swiss and Austrian German –, [ç] in the north of the German-speaking area. Compare de:Aussprache der deutschen Sprache. The misconception that the [k] pronunciation is somehow "dialectal" seems to originate from and is, unfortunately, still promoted by provincial and uninformed speakers in Northern Germany. (In fact, in Central German dialects, all instances of word-final or morpheme-final g – except ng, which is often rendered as [ŋk] word-finally – are pronounced palatal, as [ç] or sometimes [ʃ] or even [j], except immediately after back vowels, where [x] or [χ] occurs, while in Upper German dialects, all are pronounced [k] or [g] without palatalisation or fricativisation. In any case, dialectal and standard pronunciations are completely different beasts and not to be confused.) Both pronunciation variants are completely valid in Standard German, neither preferrable to the other, and both should be shown in the intro. In general, a Northern German bias should be avoided when giving German pronunciations anywhere. Like many other standard languages, Standard German is a pluricentric language, i. e., has regional and national variants that must be fully acknowledged. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:49, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

However, I think there is a mistake with the sound of 'ee' in Beethoven: it should be 'i:', instead of 'e:', shouldn't it? 82.158.61.235 (talk) 10:11, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure which sounds you mean, but the German pronunciation, expressed in IPA symbols, is not wrong as shown in the article or in this sound file: File:De-Ludwig_van_Beethoven.ogg, although there are legitimate regional variations, e.g. File:De-Ludwig van Beethoven (2 Varianten).ogg and others. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:09, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Omission of "van" in text[edit]

Why is he referred to as "Beethoven" in the text, instead of "van Beethoven"? For example in "Beethoven was born of this marriage in Bonn." With others, the "van" is not omitted. Vincent van Gogh is referred to as "van Gogh", for example in "Van Gogh began to draw as a child, (...)". Which one is correct? Why? Cursarion (talk) 08:26, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Most English-language sources refer to him as "Beethoven", not "van Beethoven". I do not know what sources that discuss the painter use, but I've never heard him called just "Gogh". Magic♪piano 12:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Same in German; "van" is only used with the full name, Ludwig van Beethoven, never with the surname alone. Why? The best answer I can come up with, and I know it's not much: "convention". I suspect though that van Gogh may be the odd one out. Almost all the "von" names I can think of are habitually also used without it. Why not Gogh? Possibly because its seriously un-mellifluous. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:48, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You must be thinking of that other famous van who had a 6th Symphony. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:49, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Louis, Louis[edit]

he signs his name "louis" on several manuscripts. yet not a peep here or much of anywhere else that he used this name/nickname/petname.

"Louis van Beethoven" consistently brings up his GRANDFATHER. so why not a line here that he was [nick]named after same, and that he actually USED the form? 173.9.95.217 (talk) 21:03, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Strikes me as a bit too much information. Other editors may disagree. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 21:46, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Here he writes Luigi in the pictured dedication, - they were more international then ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How fascinating. Not too much information at all. Deserves a mention, I think. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:14, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone ever heard of this obscure piece? Seems to be Louis there. 173.9.95.217 (talk) 14:28, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Too obscure by far. But how about this one? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:39, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is it, in fact, the case that EVERY manuscript he published in French used "Louis" and every one he published in Italian used "Luigi"?
I do not think this is well known at all. Did other composers do this?
If I'm not mistaken, they are all "Ludwig" on modern copies. 173.9.95.217 (talk) 19:48, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And I'd guess all published in Hanoverian UK were attributed to "Lugwig". Some LvB scholar here is bound to know? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:33, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Beethoven and Goethe[edit]

I find it hard to believe there is not a single mention of Johann Wolfgang von Goethe in this article, despite the fact that Beethoven said himself that he idolized Goethe.

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/a-meeting-of-genius-beethoven-and-goethe-july-1812 Darktangent (talk) 04:19, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Be bold! DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 05:06, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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