would ship only when there was profit, and when there was no profit somebody else had to ship; we had been their shipper for a number of years.
Q. When you speak of their shipper—their leading shipper, do you mean?
A. Yes, sir; we did their business between Philadelphia and Baltimore and New York.
Q. Were you their evener, so to speak?
A. We did not have any eveners in those days.
Q. Did you practically stand in the position of an evener?
A. No, sir; we were simply their shipper of crude oil.
Q. When you speak of their "shipper," in the singular, do you mean that you were their sole shipper, as you subsequently became on the Erie?
A. I mean we had better rates of freight than anybody else could have obtained over the Pennsylvania Railroad at that time.
Q. And therefore monopolised the business; go on?
A. And the consequence is that in consequence of this change in the demand that when there comes a season that there is a little money in it, the Pennsylvania Railroad would encourage these numerous small shippers who would come in and they would pro-rate cars with them; they would only allow us to put in a requisition for a certain number of cars and they would allow anybody else, an entire stranger, a man who never shipped any before, to put in an equal requisition, and they would pro-rate with him, and the consequence was in the paying business we were out and in the unpaying business we were in.
Q. And you left it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Because you could not get rates better than other people?
A. No, sir; because we could not stand it; because we were losing money.
Q. On the same basis that other people were?
A. No, sir; other people were not shipping except when there was a profit.
Q. Why did you ship when there was not a profit?
A. Because that was our business; we were shippers of petroleum.
By the Chairman.
Q. I don't understand why you were obliged to ship at a loss?
A. That is the reason why we left the Pennsylvania Railroad.
Q. I don't understand why you were obliged to ship at a loss?
A. We were in the petroleum business and shippers of petroleum, and we had contracts; in order to keep the cars running it was necessary for us to make a contract for one, two, three, five, or six months ahead.
By Mr. Sterne.
Q. Isn't it true that upon the basis of your having better rates than anybody else, you proceeded to make contracts to extend your business?
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