Template talk:Gap

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Dodgy example?[edit]

Being new to Wikisource, I have been browsing guidelines on formatting. I followed the link to Page:An_introduction_to_physiological_and_systematical_botany_(1st_edition).djvu/542 (an example of the "real-life" use of the Gap template). However, I think the example provided actually provides a very dubious use of the template; bizarrely, it is being used to replicate the unsightly gaps created in the original book by the typesetter padding out the lines to justify his paragraphs! Since the text doesn't repeat the original line-breaks, there is no point whatsoever in doing this! It merely makes the final "Read" page unnecessarily gappy in random places. SiGarb (talk) 19:21, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

On second thoughts, and having looked at more pages from the same document, perhaps gaps are appropriate in that example, although I would say they are possibly too wide and would be better as 1 em rather than 2. But what definitely isn't working, is that the gap doesn't disappear when it falls at the beginning of a line. This leaves a strange indent, which gives a false emphasis tot he next item. Does this only happen on the edit page, or does it carry through to the final reading document? (I'm sorry, I don't know how to check this.) SiGarb (talk) 23:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Line breaking with {{gap}}[edit]

Hesperian, I just noticed today that there is text wrapping going on with poems using {{gap}}s (see second instance below). The problem doesn't seem to arise when using emsp (first instance below), so I figured it must be something with the script for {{gap}} (of which I am ignorant)? I tried playing with trailing gaps, but that now adds an undesired line space when employed... Thought I'd ask you. Thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 19:23, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

HELEN KELLER WITH A ROSE

Others may see thee; I behold thee not;
  Yet most I think thee, beauteous blossom, mine:
  For I, who walk in shade, like Proserpine—
Things once too briefly looked on, long forgot—
  Seem by some tender miracle divine,
When breathing thee, apart,
To hold the rapturous summer warm within my heart.

HELEN KELLER WITH A ROSE

Others may see thee; I behold thee not;
 Yet most I think thee, beauteous blossom, mine:
 For I, who walk in shade, like Proserpine—
Things once too briefly looked on, long forgot—
 Seem by some tender miracle divine,
When breathing thee, apart,
To hold the rapturous summer warm within my heart.

FWIW, These two passages look the same when I view them in IE7 (at work). This may be a browser-dependent issue. --EncycloPetey (talk) 19:31, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Yup... I just checked in IE, and it renders correctly; Chrome, however,—not so good. I believe it just started occurring today. Londonjackbooks (talk) 19:32, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
I've now checked in Safari (from home), and when using that browser there is a noticeable difference in the degree of line indentation. I see no difference in the text wrapping (even when I narrow my browser window), so I assume it is the degree of indentation of the lines that you meant. --EncycloPetey (talk) 04:38, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
In Chrome, the second line of the poem (second instance above) breaks after the word "blossom,"—and the word "mine:" appears on a new line, flush left. A 'trailing gap' used at the end of the first line used to remedy a situation like that, but now (in Chrome, at least) that merely causes an undesired line space breaking up the stanza. Just curious, what is the "noticeable difference in the degree of line indentation" you are seeing between IE and Safari renderings (in approx. 'em' length)? Londonjackbooks (talk) 15:13, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
This is another instance where the table HTML params have been deprecated in a recent wmf code upgrade. I've edited the block center template to better handle the change. If you are still seeing a wrap; increase the width by adding |width=380px (or higher) to the block center template as before. -- George Orwell III (talk) 22:03, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
So many poems (hundreds) are affected that I won't go through them all setting widths. But how would you set a width (what formatting) for a single-page poem? i.e., {{block center|...}} as opposed to {{block center/s|width=380px}}? and thanks for taking a look at the issue... Londonjackbooks (talk) 22:35, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Too many poems with trailing gaps affected too (now renders extra line space within stanza); wmf code upgrades (of which I am ignorant) should bear poetry in mind when making changes :) I guess if the problem exists primarily in Chrome, I shouldn't lose sleep over it, huh? Again, Londonjackbooks (talk) 22:52, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
At one point, 320px was the default (which seems kind of narrow to me for most lines in a poem but nevertheless that is what it was set to). At some point later on in the template's history, the width parameter became an option; it wasn't set at all by default unless width=... was added by the editor. Now with the recent changes, I followed the latter instead of the original template coding hoping not to break a majority of the instances where the template is being used. I'd think more investigation & feedback is needed to see if the fixed width route (but to account for the change) is even possible at this point.
For single page poems I suppose {{block center|width=360px|texttexttext...}}is the way I would do it. Unfortunately I do not see this "wrapping" or "trailing" thing under my old-ass IE browser so I'm working pretty much in the dark here & can't be sure of the results you would see under your browser. I will take a look at the mutlipage start and end block templates sometime tonight regardless. -- George Orwell III (talk) 23:15, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Your width-setting applied to the poem above corrected the line break in my browser. I was told that setting width was not really desirable (with rare exception), so I have shied away from it. I guess if width is set by default in templates (if I understand correctly), then we don't have much control over the output. No sleep lost! Londonjackbooks (talk) 14:45, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
We were right to avoid setting a fixed width since align="center" use to handle centering a HTML table based on the longest table-row within that table (& Block Center is a HTML table based template).

With the wmf code upgrade, align="center" depracated (as it should be according to the latest HTML 5 specification & the wmf code seems to be moving towards finally implementing that specification in these recent upgrades). It is being automatically replaced with its css styling near-equivalnet style="margin-right:auto; margin-left:auto;". When something like the old width="320px" table parameter is present, it is automatically being converted to style="width:320px" upon save as well.

The question becomes this in a nutshell - with the change taking place, does the previous avoidance of using percentage widths (100%, 50%, etc.) for fixed-widths (120em, 360px, etc) still apply in such templates for users of every browser stripe? If not, setting the default width to 100% and letting the auto left & right margins work as advertised should correct this issue without the need for thousands of edits. I will work this up in Wikisource:Sandbox and see if folks still have issues. In addition, things like {{Multicol}} are not helpful because the template also has HTML table components in it and just adds to the task of troubleshooting. -- George Orwell III (talk) 19:00, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

OK.. I've made some changes to both Block center and Block center/s that I think eliminates the need of setting a width. Again - feedback is needed because I don't have this issue to begin with and I'm just going by what I think makes the most css &/or html sense. -- George Orwell III (talk) 21:13, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

I'll have company for about a week, and my time will likely be sporadic here; but I'll be glad to provide feedback at some point. Thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 02:26, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

further...[edit]

Just some quick feedback: The second line of the poem (above right) breaks after the word "blossom" in Chrome. Londonjackbooks (talk) 14:49, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Forget about the above; it uses side-by-side multi columns in addition to the template in question. What about the stuff on Wikisource:Sandbox ?
Multi-col doesn't matter (in this case); stanzas in Sandbox all look the same (to me, in Chrome), still breaking after "blossom", with "mine" flush-left on a new line. Londonjackbooks (talk) 02:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Can {{gap}} (or a new template) be written with em-spaces (&emsp) as the basis for the template's indentation? Em-spaces don't seem to cause line breaking (keep in mind my ignorance). i.e., maybe you (GO3) don't even have to mess with {{block center}}? Londonjackbooks (talk) 13:48, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I'd rather that indentation be handled like all other indentation - via CSS styling. The only reason we use spaces of any order here on en.ws is because it was a work around to a work around to a work around thats been "around" long enough that people have forgotten its a work around when it comes to prose or poems.

HELEN KELLER WITH A ROSE

Others may see thee; I behold thee not;
Yet most I think thee, beauteous blossom, mine:
For I, who walk in shade, like Proserpine—
Things once too briefly looked on, long forgot—
Seem by some tender miracle divine,
When breathing thee, apart,
To hold the rapturous summer warm within my heart.

This why the <poem> tag was created (recently modified further) in the first place (used in the above) -- in order not to ass-up the editing of normal text with the smaller instances or situations involing the editing of poetry text. So, no I won't change Gap into something its not meant for or worse. Sorry. -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:24, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Just FYI, the second line is also breaking above (where you indented with colons), looking (to me, in Chrome) like:

Others may see thee; I behold thee not;
Yet most I think thee, beauteous blossom,
mine:
For I, who walk in shade, like Proserpine—
Things once too briefly looked on, long forgot—
Seem by some tender miracle divine,
When breathing thee, apart,
To hold the rapturous summer warm within my heart.

I guess {{gap}} as well as colons—combined with {{block center}}—causes line breaks. Not so with em dashes. I understand your not wanting to make any changes or additions; I'm beginning to get a distaste for some templates lately when it comes to formatting poetry (to include {{nop}}). Back to basics! Thanks for your time, Londonjackbooks (talk) 02:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
That break should not happen under the above unless it is something to do with spans in general (which gap is based on). You'll need somebody using Chrome to follow up on this further I'm sorry to say. I've consulted the HTML file spec looking for any clue that might cause that and I can't even reproduce that effect to test around it thouroughly. -- George Orwell III (talk) 03:03, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for trying, anyway. Not sure who else here uses Chrome and has the know-how. Maybe someone'll see this section & give it a go. Thanks for all! Londonjackbooks (talk) 03:40, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

HELEN KELLER WITH A ROSE

Others may see thee; I behold thee not;
 Yet most I think thee, beauteous blossom, mine:
 For I, who walk in shade, like Proserpine—
Things once too briefly looked on, long forgot—
 Seem by some tender miracle divine,
When breathing thee, apart,
To hold the rapturous summer warm within my heart.

One more take on this - what about the above example? -- George Orwell III (talk) 21:12, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Indentation (lines 2, 3, 5) is seen (by me, in Chrome) with only a one space width. Have to give you credit for continuing to beat this horse; it ain't dead, but it sure is stubborn! Londonjackbooks (talk) 21:18, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

HELEN KELLER WITH A ROSE

Others may see thee; I behold thee not;
Yet most I think thee, beauteous blossom, mine:
For I, who walk in shade, like Proserpine—
Things once too briefly looked on, long forgot—
Seem by some tender miracle divine,
When breathing thee, apart,
To hold the rapturous summer warm within my heart.

... and now for the example directly above? -- George Orwell III (talk) 21:27, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Breaking after "blossom" again, with "mine" flush-left on following line. Indentation is ok. BTW,—there was no line breaking in the previous example... just the one-space indentation issue. I'll be away prob for the night, but I'll check back tomorrow for any changes. Londonjackbooks (talk) 21:48, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Grrrrr.... more testing/feedback needed

Others may see thee; I behold thee not;
Yet most I think thee, beauteous blossom, mine:
For I, who walk in shade, like Proserpine—
Things once too briefly looked on, long forgot—
Seem by some tender miracle divine,
When breathing thee, apart,
To hold the rapturous summer warm within my heart.

Looks same as example above it: breaking after "blossom". Londonjackbooks (talk) 03:01, 14 October 2012 (UTC)


Others may see thee; I behold thee not;
Yet most I think thee, beauteous blossom, mine:
For I, who walk in shade, like Proserpine—
Things once too briefly looked on, long forgot—
Seem by some tender miracle divine,
When breathing thee, apart,
To hold the rapturous summer warm within my heart.

... and the 2 above (2nd one without block center) -- George Orwell III (talk) 22:11, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

This one without bc looks good. Londonjackbooks (talk) 03:01, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Others may see thee; I behold thee not;
Yet most I think thee, beauteous blossom, mine:
For I, who walk in shade, like Proserpine—
Things once too briefly looked on, long forgot—
Seem by some tender miracle divine,
When breathing thee, apart,
To hold the rapturous summer warm within my heart.

... and now to-the-left but within a table? -- 03:43, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Breaking after "blossom"; "mine" flush-left. Londonjackbooks (talk) 15:46, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
So this has nothing to do with anything else except for table widths & the old problem where percentage values won't auto-center for some browsers. Now that the width="...." parameter is deprecated for just about everyone, this leaves us with very few options. The width will need to be set manually for some folks using the CSS style equivalent style="width:....;". I will keep looking for a way to get this to work without that fixed width setting though. -- George Orwell III (talk) 16:18, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Others may see thee; I behold thee not;
Yet most I think thee, beauteous blossom, mine:
For I, who walk in shade, like Proserpine—
Things once too briefly looked on, long forgot—
Seem by some tender miracle divine,
When breathing thee, apart,
To hold the rapturous summer warm within my heart.

Same issue as previous. Wish I could say otherwise. Londonjackbooks (talk) 16:42, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Proper usage[edit]

1[edit]

See Index talk:Mars - Lowell.djvu for discussion on the use of this template. —Spangineerwp (háblame) 14:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

2[edit]

Having examined the discussion at Mars, I see no actual consensus or links to actual policy that warrant the digression on "improper usage" in the current template documentation. There is a single editor who opines

...I have no problem with using {{gap}} for poetry or any number of other reasons related to conveying special formatting in wikisource. If there's an argument to be made for a specific work being displayed in typical book formatting (indents and no paragraph spacing), I wouldn't automatically object. But it's standard practice on every wiki and throughout the internet that new paragraphs are not indented when preceded by an empty line, and it seems strange and inconsistent to begin implementing it here.

which misses out that Wikisource does often try to capture the initial formatting of the source texts. There's the template's creator, who is fairly livid:

Those who like indented paragraphs should feel free to indent their paragraphs. The issue for me is that {{gap}} is a hideous way to implement that. If I had anticipated this abuse of the template, I would not have created it. If you want your text indented, use CSS text indentation.

But this is Wiki and it's not "his" to take away or set rules about now that we have it. He doesn't get to "depreciate" usage; the community or server admins do. Spangineer seemed to defer to his authority as template creator but none of the other users there seem to agree with him. Hesperian's example that's "a gazillion times better" actually involves more work for editors and produced no noticeable difference in effect on my browser.

We don't know CSS; &emsp; doesn't actually produce 1 em-length spacing for some reason; {{em}} functions exactly similarly without the lecture on "depreciated usage"; we will forget the link to him going on about <div style="text-indent:1em; ">; we don't really understand how to implement it (he forgot to mention the closing < / d i v > in the footer); and we shouldn't have to type that mess out when {{gap}} does yeoman's work. So... not saying you guys are entirely in the wrong, that we're not thankful for Hesperian's work, or that we shouldn't learn some CSS if there is a good reason, but

(a) I'm removing that commentary on usage in the meantime, although I will provide a link to {{indent}}; and
(b) Before you restore it, kindly do explain why forcing our editors to learn to use obscure and easily buggy CSS code is an improvement on a straight-forward three-letter template that appears to function just as well. What is it that makes it "hideous", bad for the servers, or more problematic for the users?
(c) If you restore it, kindly link to or explain at length exactly how to produce indented formatting without this template.

There might be a good answer to those questions and I don't mind generally using the {{indent}} template in place of {{gap}}, but it easily screws up when a final paragraph is broken across two transcluded pages. {{gap}} or {{em}} both function better for those terminal paragraphs. — LlywelynII 05:27, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

The consensus has been for years that we do not indent the lead of paragraphs and, instead, use a couple of line returns (whitespace being better, and paper conservation not being our issue). If it missing from Wikisource:Style guide, then that is an oversight that you are welcome to correct if you feel that it is necessary to be there. — billinghurst sDrewth 07:05, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
In short, don't use either indent or gap. We would usually reserve {{indent}} or {{hanging indent inherit}} for special cases. — billinghurst sDrewth 07:09, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Not that I don't assume good faith, but you're welcome to document or link to that consensus. However, nothing you're saying involves depreciating this particular template for that purpose in situations where it is called for. — LlywelynII 07:33, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Nevermind. Found something close enough for government work. — LlywelynII 07:44, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
If you have one paragraph that needs indenting, use indent, if it spans a page break, use hanging indent inherit. — billinghurst sDrewth
I meant "...for the citation you were looking for". ; ) But thanks. — LlywelynII 11:13, 28 August 2014 (UTC)