From Wikisource
Jump to: navigation, search
Scriptorium Scriptorium (Help) Archives, Last archive
The Scriptorium is Wikisource's community discussion page. This subpage is especially designated for requests for help from more experienced Wikisourcers. Feel free to ask questions or leave comments. You may join any current discussion or a new one. Project members can often be found in the #wikisource IRC channel webclient.


Table transclusion/formatting help[edit]

I need an extra set of eyes... Can someone please take a look at the table formatting on DJVU pp. 352-355 and see why it is not transcluding correctly in the Main? Thank you! Londonjackbooks (talk) 23:47, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Seems to be okay now... Londonjackbooks (talk) 00:12, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Formatting error[edit]

In the page The Burglar, where pg. 111 begins, the formatting is broken (appearing as it would on Wikipedia if the line began with a space). I have no idea how to fix this, as I'm not an editor on this project and the interface is different, so I figured I'd mention it here instead. Sven Manguard (talk) 05:00, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, fixed. Hesperian 05:22, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Can I upload these scans to Wikisource?[edit]

Can I upload a copy of a scan that someone else made to Wikisource so that I can make a searchable version of it? Specifically, I'd like to upload scans of some orders-in-council amending the Constitution of Canada, such as this one and make pages for the documents under the Template:Legislation-CAGov licence. --Arctic.gnome (talk) 21:19, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

The last time I tried uploading a Government of Canada document & image, it was rejected by Commons because, while the Canadian Parliament Archives emailed me the permission, it was not in the format demanded by Wikimedia Commons. It's best if you get the proper format from Wikimedia Commons and forward it to GoC archives for permission.— Ineuw talk 23:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Arctic.gnome, if the underlying material may legally be hosted (it's not clear to me from {{Legislation-CAGov}} that it may, but I'll leave that to you) then the fact that someone else made the scan is of no importance: no copyright arises from "a mere mechanical scan or photocopy". Hesperian 01:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Being able to use another's scan solves one hurdle. The other is where I can upload them. As I understand it, I can't upload them to Commons because they have two additional conditions attached to the licence beyond cc-by-sa--namely the requirement to be accurate and the requirement to state that they aren't official. If these requirements are acceptable to Wikisource but not to Commons, what are my options? Can I transcribe the texts to Wikisource without uploading an image to Commons? Can I upload the image to Wikisource instead of Commons? --Arctic.gnome (talk) 03:20, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

@Arctic.gnome:We work on a priority order. 1) Host them at Commons if at all possible [this makes them available to all wikis, not just ours] 2) if Commons cannot take them, and they are public domain documents (or equivalent) in the US and fit within WS:WWI, then they can be hosted at English Wikisource. That said please ensure as part of the WS:WWI that you look at the licensing and also Help:Copyright tags.

Re the scan type, it is what works well in our side by side system. If we have PDF or DJVU they have text layers that can be scraped and imported. If it is a jpg or something else the system recognises then you have typing or copy and pasting to do. If it is something not recognised, then we a problem, though that doesn't mean that we cannot host the text, it just means that it is unsupported by the image (which is not our preference). — billinghurst sDrewth 11:21, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

File upload help request[edit]


Seasons greetings from Marathi language wikisource(mr). We tried to upload a India public domain book in PDF format. It showed upload completed but PDF document commons:File:Chhandorachanaa.pdf was not readable at all . We want and request some one upload document for us either on or on commons. We need it for a collaborative wikisource writing project.

  • Reffered and requested upload book is Chandorachana (Marathi:छन्दोरचना)
  • Is writtern by : W:en:Madhav Julian (Marathi: माधव जुलियन) (January 21, 1894 – November 29, 1939)
  • It is Public Domain copyright free due to expiry of copyright period in India Please refer licence commons:Template:PD-India {{PD-India}}
  • The Book is available online at

Earliest help will be apreciated.

Thanks and Regards Mahitgar (talk) 14:17, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Does this work for you: Commons:File:छन्दोरचना.djvu? - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:33, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

This has worked. Lot of thanks Thanks and warm greeting. For some technical reasons i have not been able to use djvu on PC. This has been very valuable support from your side. Regards

Mahitgar (talk) 08:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Request for help with TOC page listing[edit]

Can anyone pls help me with this little nasty problem on Page:The_Economic_Journal_Volume_1.djvu/7. The problem is at the lower part of the page, just above “NOTES AND MEMORANDA”. There is a link to four pages there. I can't get them in one row. This is how far I got. Thnx. - Dick Bos (talk) 12:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

The secret is parameter col3-width of {{dotted TOC page listing}}. The default width is only 2em, which is just about full with 3 digits, let alone four references + ancillary spaces and commas (which is why they formatted vertically.) I gave it 12em for the sake of this trial, but feel free (of course) to tweak that as you want. AuFCL (talk) 12:56, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. I'll soon try it in another spot. Dick Bos (talk) 13:50, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
I forgot to mention: to make the page-numbers column completely "set-and-forget", try setting parameter |col3-width=auto. The price you pay is ragged ends to the dot leaders, but you might find it the simplest option. AuFCL (talk) 00:09, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Last suggestion retracted, as it does not appear to work well in some browsers. AuFCL (talk) 16:35, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Non english charecters...[edit]

Can someone that's familiar with the relevant languages look over this and insert the appropriate characters?

Index:Adapting and Writing Language Lessons.pdf

I've tried to make intelligent guesses in places, but would appreciate someone else taking over.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:31, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I've looked a few random pages and can't see any non-Latin characters. Could you give some pointers as to what the problems are (page numbers, particular language, &c.)? Beeswaxcandle (talk) 05:23, 12 February 2014 (UTC) - Thai. For starters.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:19, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
First, that's not Thai, or else I would suggest you don't touch it. Hehe. However, as far as I can tell, it is IPA for Thai words, so you can just use that alphabet for it. For example, using text from the page:
nîi ʔaray
nîi mîitkoon

OK It looks like IPA, but in places it's accented, and the accented versions are not in the Charcters box, I stil think it requires a specialist. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:18, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Weird typesetting issue[edit]

I just worked on this page, and it has an unusual versification in it. Does anyone have any idea how to transcribe it? Would it be best just to use an image in its place?—Zhaladshar (Talk) 14:26, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes.. Given its an inscription marking? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:13, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
I took a shot at transcribing it in Unicode. Given that it's not like an etching or something I think it might be more appropriate to render it that way rather than with an image, even though I think most/all Ogham fonts are going to have that center line which isn't present in the text's typeface. Prosody (talk) 22:00, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Erm, what font did you use? All I see are little boxes... Mukkakukaku (talk) 03:15, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Oh, damn, that hadn't occurred to me. It's Segoi UI Symbol on Firefox on Windows 7. Default Windows 7 font, but it's not going to be available everywhere. Chrome on the same machine doesn't even use it. I don't think there's any support in Universal Language Selector even if that gets turned back on. I guess we'll have to fall back to using images. Prosody (talk) 03:29, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Wait, the DejaVu family has Ogham. Anyone know what the list of fonts on the Universal Language Selector is? Prosody (talk) 03:50, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Integrating plate images into mainspace[edit]

I just finished proofreading The Indian Dispossessed (index), but before announcing its completion (however that's done), the book has a few plate images which don't have any obvious location within the chapters and text. How might these be best included in mainspace? djr13 (talk) 00:34, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

They should be included in the text as I did one formatted sample Page:The Indian Dispossessed.pdf/112, Main mnamespace = The Indian Dispossessed/The Nez Perces. Please look at the changes in the "File" image wrapper and caption centering. For some reason, when wrapped as before, the caption becomes noticeably offset. I also reduced the image size to 430px. My reasons for this are complicated, but primarily it's because the text width of the Main namespace Option #2 is about ~450-460px. An oversized image may lack esthetics.— Ineuw talk 03:14, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your help. I had thus far avoided doing it that way, as breaking paragraphs (usually unrelated to the image) for full-page plate images seems sub-optimal. And what to do with the frontispiece image? Sure there isn't another way? (Hmm, it looks like I was possibly supposed to name each mainspace subpage a generic "Chapter 1" etc....) djr13 (talk) 07:37, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Just picking up on a couple of your questions:

For the chapter numbering, the generic version is only when the chapters are numbered either in the TOC or in the chapter headers. If the chapters don't have this, then the way you've named them is fine. It's really about linking to them from other works.

In re your other concern, have a look at Picturesque Nepal where we put the images in wherever they came in the book. The alternative is more complex, but can be seen in the earlier chapters of The Conquest of Mount Cook. The proofreader here chose to move the images to the end of paragraphs in the mainspace but left them where they are in the Page: namespace. This was done by using includeonly and noinclude tags. Both of these books have frontispieces that have been done slightly differently. Nepal has the frontispiece as the opening page before the title. Mount Cook transcludes them the other way around, so that the title page is up-front. If the cover image is a good one, then that can go in first. A recent example of this is On to Pekin. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 08:38, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Beeswaxcandle is correct and I should have been more specific in regard to images. In the main namespace, one has the latitude to place images, especially full page images, at the beginning of a chapter. It's your choice. Already moved the image in The Indian Dispossessed/The Nez Perces to the beginning since it's the only image in that chapter. — Ineuw talk 17:24, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
I've gone with including the images at the beginning of each chapter, and including the frontispiece where it otherwise would be plus including the half-title before it where otherwise I excluded this as redundant. It's still a bit cludgy but seems workable. It seems like there's no good way to include such large, text-breaking images in mainspace due to format limitations. The most obvious alternative to me would be either folding them into thumbnails or offsetting them into the side-area in a similar way to what annotations are heading. I'll look into announcing the completion now. Thanks both. djr13 (talk) 21:07, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
I think it looks great. — Ineuw talk 21:46, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Oversized mathematical operators in print[edit]

I've been looking for oversized mathematical operators used in 19th century printed matter: like double length = signs, double size + signs etc., but have not found in any UTF-8 reference tables. Do they exist? — Ineuw talk 02:49, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't think they exist as unique symbols per se, but perhaps try wrapping them in {{larger}} or {{x-larger}}? Eg. to get an affect like so: 7 ÷ 2  π .
Alternatively -- does the wikisource software support LaTeX? If it does, there are some commands to support resizing of portions of equations that may be possible to use. Mukkakukaku (talk) 04:58, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. I believe WS does support LaTeX.— Ineuw talk 05:12, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Would you please be so kind as to supply context/examples? I expect these are not quite what you are looking for, but there do exist UNICODE for (say) double- and triple-equals (⩵:⩵ and ⩶:⩶ respectively), and so-called "heavy" plus (➕:➕), minus (➖:➖) and division signs (➗:➗); and the dual-purposed "cross mark" (❌:❌) paired with "heavy large circle" (⭕:⭕).
Thanks for your help. The start of this page is a perfect example of the hundreds of times it's used. Unfortunately, the above symbols are not the ones I was looking for, but the LaTeX symbols are.

WS does not support all of Latex, only the texvc subset (see mw:Extension:Math, but that gives you =+-\times\div at least. AuFCL (talk) 14:22, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
These are the very symbols I was looking for since 1872 - when PSM started publication. Face-smile.svg. As for the LaTeX support I was only aware of {some] math, but didn't know that they can be used for just the symbols. My thanks to you both.— Ineuw talk 17:01, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
The first line of that page might be produced by something like:

<math>\scriptstyle{+,~-,~\sqrt{}}</math>. In the same century Vieta…
—with result:
\scriptstyle{+,~-,~\sqrt{}}. In the same century Vieta…

Notes and hints:
  1. Make sure that is a "normal" minus sign; dashes or mdashes send <math> into (lexing error) sulks!
  2. Tildes (~) may be used to add spaces inside the <math> string. Normally spaces are stripped out as if they were never there.
  3. Although <math> doesn't seem to analyse the command string too closely, thinks like \sqrt are considered to be functions and won't work (syntax error)) without at least empty {}s following.
  4. I routinely enclose <math> strings in \scriptstyle{}, mainly because I find the text is too large to match surrounding text. Of course your aesthetics and the situation may differ.
  5. Be aware that <math> produces its output as an image, with the side-effect it will not "split" when line-wrapping occurs. It is often wise to make several short <math> blocks (say between commas) rather than one long one and risk later disappointment.
Hope this is useful, and I am not merely repeating stuff you already know. AuFCL (talk) 22:58, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Could {{FI}} be of any use here?
 | type  = math
 | width = 25%
 | file  = <math>sin x = {e^{ix} - e^{-ix} \over 2i} </math>

sin x = {e^{ix} - e^{-ix} \over 2i}

Just wondering...... -- George Orwell III (talk) 00:00, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
AuFCL, thanks for those very important points, of which I was only aware of \scriptstyle. If you haven't done so, please consider including your instructions on the Math help page. Otherwise these will be buried in the Archive.
Wonder no longer GO3. I will be using {{FI}}. There are hundreds of formulas need to proofread/updated in PSM.
Many thanks to all for the above info.— Ineuw talk 04:27, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
Point of Order - please use math instead of user for FI's type= parameter. Both should produce the same output but one day User might be needed for a 4rth application or something. Thanks. -- George Orwell III (talk) 04:36, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
Note that the {{FI}} above produces quite blurry results, and evidently doesn't even work outside PNG mode. (I don't think it will show up at all in PDF output, for example.) —SamB (talk) 03:12, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Quick access icon link to the Commons is gone from WS images[edit]

Can someone please restore the quick link icon to the Commons image source. In one of the recent mw software updates, it disappeared. Thanks in advance. — Ineuw talk 03:17, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Odd. I still see the icon linked to Commons on my File: pages (inline with header text to the top-right). Can anyone else replicate? -- George Orwell III (talk) 00:05, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
I can confirm the Commons icon is visible on for example, say, here. AuFCL (talk) 01:00, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
OK then - back to basics....

Ineuw, can you see the icon on

at all? -- George Orwell III (talk) 01:52, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I can see both.— Ineuw talk 17:01, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
To further clarify, I can see the two icons GO3 has included, but there is no icon on the smiley image, nor on any other image from the commons.— Ineuw talk 17:05, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
I inverted the order in MediaWiki:Sharedupload-desc-here; see if that made any difference on any File: namespace page for you & report back. -- George Orwell III (talk) 22:27, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the effort but no go. Here is a screen image File:No icon link to the Commons.jpg I've taken earlier. This issue is an old one. Haven't had a commons link for many weeks. Would this be controlled in Preferences? — Ineuw talk 01:32, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

@Ineuw: GOT IT - Apparently (& Sadly) you are always going to be "less than whole" when it comes to certain defaults because you are in Canada but use [American?] English in your settings. Without your own Canadian MediaWiki message base, your "setup" surps from the US set when it can but fails unless a proper subset(?) is created in certain instances (or at least that is how I've come to observe this behavior to date).

Added MediaWiki:Sharedupload-desc-here/en-ca and that should "rectify" your missing icon issue. I guess it comes at the expense of what amounts to a "redundant" MediaWiki message.

Anyone have the same problem but is a "closer" subject of the Crown than Canada? -- George Orwell III (talk) 01:48, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

O.K. Now you point that out, en-gb (which would normally be my preferred choice; my earlier "working" observation was made as Preferences/Language/en—now [temporarily?] retracted) exhibits the same issue (i.e. missing Commons icon). Regards, AuFCL (talk) 02:33, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
@AuFCL - can you verify both of your prior observations still hold now? I just discovered [:MediaWiki:Sharedupload] (created 2005 & made a redirect in 2012) might be involved in this & just deleted our local copy of it to see what happens (if anything). It would be great if that restored everything but I'll add the gb if it didn't. TIA --- George Orwell III (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
No, only MediaWiki:Sharedupload-desc-here shows Commons icon (which should not be a shock, because that is what it really does) here. The others, all nada, since changing Preferences from 'en'→'en-GB'. AuFCL (talk)
Thanks. IMO - It's a bit crazy to add something like the Commons top icon to a MW message that isn't working across the board in the first place. I'm going to try finding a better MW message to host the icon so the crippled message [in theory] really is separate from the icon. Back in a bit. -- George Orwell III (talk) 03:13, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
OK @AuFCL: - {{Commons top icon}} is now hosted via [:MediaWiki:Filehist-help]. Please check any File: page to see if the icon appears (& works!) like it should no matter the language setting in use. Only difference, now, should be one has a FMbox (for the blind?) for a default message while the other(s) use the system standard default, plain-text message w/ link to shared file description info back on Commons found just below the file-size/mime type, etc. info (The icon should appear in the top right corner regardless!) -- George Orwell III (talk) 03:27, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Scratch all that attempted 'moving around', en-ca & en-gb created but all 3 call Template:Sharedupload-desc-here instead of hosting the same stuff 3x in the MW namespace. Please report in now that this seems like the "final" solution moving forward. -- George Orwell III (talk) 04:10, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Many pardons for delayed response (Real Life™ interfered.) All O.K. re: Commons icon again this side now. Thank you. AuFCL (talk) 04:15, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
My hero. Just another heartfelt thank you GO3. It works! — Ineuw talk 05:36, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

PROOFREADPAGE - Both the default and auto edit-summary texts based on status no longer being populated[edit]

originally titled: On Page creation, "Not proofread" is not showing up in the Summary

Since I've been on a roll of success today, would it possible to display the default "Not proofread" in the Summary field when the page is created? This used to be so several software updates ago. I request this because most pages need proofreading.— Ineuw talk 09:56, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

  • Verified (XpPro, IE8).

    In addition, when opening edit mode on existing pages already given a PR status, the corresponding edit-summary text matching that current status once was pre-populated in the summary field upon entering edit-mode by default & remained that way until/unless the Editor manually 'ticked' a change in status prior to adding additional comments and saving. That "function" has also stopped working (under edit or preview; no difference) and a blank field is now the default instead (of course, until/unless a ststus is manually ticked &/or edited before the final save). -- George Orwell III (talk) 06:03, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Unpublished works of unknown authorship[edit]

I found in some family documents a carbon copy of a poem or song from c. 1918. Based on the POV of the narrator, it pretty clearly wasn't written by the family member who kept it, but rather by an enlisted man stationed at the same air field. I googled some of the lines in case it was published, including more generic lines in case it was just a local take on a more widespread song, but if so it's certainly not on the Internet yet. (And honestly, I don't think it was terribly well constructed.) I'm really not sure whether to use {{PD-anon-1923}}, which says it's for published works, or {{PD-US-unpublished}}, which requires knowing when the creator died, or whether it's just not kosher at all. It seems like something that would be of some interest historically, so it'd be nice to make it available. Laurascudder (talk) 18:29, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Neither of those will work, you don’t know it was published and you don’t know when the author died. Jeepday (talk) 00:17, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
And that's why I'm here. Any solutions? Laurascudder (talk) 03:24, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
It's a copyright issue. Unpublished works aren't subject to the 1923 thing as you might otherwise expect. See here: Help:Public domain#Unpublished works See if you can find if the author died in 1943 or earlier. djr13 (talk) 03:45, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
According to this table, unpublished works with no known year of death are under copyright for 120 years from the date of creation. Assuming 1918 is correct, it won't be in the public domain until January 2039. There seems to be some clause involving certification by the Copyright Office but, otherwise, legally it cannot be hosted here. Sorry. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 20:58, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

How to prepare this text from for proofreading[edit]

I'm thinking about trying to prepare for upload (it should be obvious why), which was scanned from microfilm and has two pages on each "page", and looks not to be very thoroughly OCR'd. What approach would be simplest? Tell @Inductiveload I might be willing to let him tackle it? (It's quite huge! On the other hand, the scans are neatly bundled in a PDF, from which they can presumably be losslessly extracted quite trivially.)

See also w:Federal Register for bibliographic information, including the usual citation convention. —SamB (talk) 02:58, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Forgive me, but the 'obvious-ness' escapes me. What exactly is it that a partial FR volume "gets us"? -- George Orwell III (talk) 21:54, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Showing thumbnails of pages[edit]

Hi wikisorcerers,

Can you check this template: {{PageFile}}. It is used to show thumbnails from the pages in the Index Talk page (example here), so we can locate more easily and quickly a page. Is everything correct? I have imported and translated it from French Wikisource (history here). Please don't hesitate to improve it! --Zyephyrus (talk) 21:35, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Very neat, ty.— Ineuw talk 22:57, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, though I'd much rather have Book2Scroll (2nd Icon at the top-right of every Index: Page) "refined" a bit further so it loads/renders properly under our current code environment. -- George Orwell III (talk) 23:33, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Category for materials under CC0[edit]

I am wondering why CC0 is not mentioned in Wikisource:Copyright policy, nor in some category similar to. Any pointers? -- Daniel Mietchen - WiR/OS (talk) 22:30, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Commons has a template and category. I suppose we should follow their lead if there's any works we have which it's applicable to. Prosody (talk) 23:02, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

text formatting help[edit]

Forgot to ask for formatting help here, if anyone has a good idea how to best format the text in caps. Thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 21:32, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

A possible hint in the first paragraph.--Mpaa (talk) 22:24, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I tried to understand the markup, but with little success. I think the text should be recreated exactly as in the original (breaks where there are breaks, etc.), for I think it was transcribed as found "scratched upon the walls" (if I read correctly). Londonjackbooks (talk) 22:40, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I've had a go. See what you think. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 23:32, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Permit my 2 Canadian cents' worth of input but tables are superior - and never fail. I won't revert the most recent edit by Beeswaxcandle, but pasted my enhancements of Mpaa below

IneuwPublic (talk) 23:44, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree about the stability of tables, but I think BWC's rendering is most faithful to the original, and what I was looking for. My first thought was tables too; I didn't at first consider gaps, but unless one can recreate BWC's rendering with a table, I think I'll keep things as is. Thanks all for your input! Londonjackbooks (talk) 23:53, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Sure, it can be done as a table. But you still need gaps to match the alignment of the inscriptions.
 1607. ADI 2. GENARO. FUI RE-
Alternative methods would be to nest a table with the indented lines within the larger table or to set each line of the inscriptions as a line in the table with 8 or 9 columns and lots of colspans. But why complicate things? Beeswaxcandle (talk) 00:31, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Looks good as well. I would not be able to complete the page with my 'skill set', however. I'll leave that to those familiar with the markup, or I am happy to keep things as is. Thank you all for taking the time to help; and BWC, thanks again for checking/amending my Greek. There are two more pages that I forgot to add the Greek missing tag (now added), and then the text can be marked as proofread! Thanks again for your help! Londonjackbooks (talk) 00:40, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Couple minor works pending help[edit]

I have a couple works I have proofread which are pending some assistance. One of these I had posted about last month, a songbook, thus needing relatively heavy transclusion work (I've done this with another edition, but could use review on if I'm doing it right such as choice of page names). The other is Evolution of American Agriculture (index), for which I have three things I am hindered by: tables (full pages 62, 63, 64, and 65; smaller tables pages 47 and 48), what to do with the heavy illustrations which mix with text, and whether I should interpret the last listed chapter (see index) as "Chapter 11" despite it not being listed as such in the TOC. Thanks, djr13 (talk) 16:45, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I got the smaller tables on pp 47-48 working by (ab)using {{dotted TOC page listing}}. The images that are the chapter headers should be done by carefully splitting the images into parts and then using floats. (See, this as an example of what I mean by that.) As for the full-page tables, or the mysterious "Chapter 11", I have no idea. Mukkakukaku (talk) 05:24, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Is it possible to use either the split or "flow under" method without breaking the drop caps, eg, alt text? djr13 (talk) 06:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I've had a go at the table on p62 for you. If it's OK, then copy that formatting onto the other 3 pages and drop the text into the appropriate spots. AuFCL is currently working on the flow under technique, so he'll be the best to answer that. In re "Chapter 11", there are no particular guidelines on how to deal with this situation. We just need to be able to link to it should another work refer to it. The way I personally would do it would be to name it (i.e. Evolution of American Agriculture/Development of the Agricultural Workers Union No. 400). This maintains the authorial intent (or the publisher's intent) as I'm guessing it's really an appendix to the main work. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 08:11, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Regarding use of {{flow under}}, I would be inclined to set the image alternate text (i.e. File:...alt=) to reflect the drop capital which the chapter image effectively represents. Apologies for not doing this on the first edit (hope this is a bit more to your liking?) Actually clicking on the image still works and takes you to the background image as before (and may be controlled at need by resort to the native parameter.)

All of these remarks should apply equally to the "split" image method if you choose to go that way.

Specifically regarding "breaking the drop caps," what exactly would you like to happen? Certainly wrapping {{drop initial}} around the chapter header image will fail using either image approach, but would you really need or want to do so?

Oh, and please don't give me credit for the technique: the more I look into the idea, the more previously existing instances keep turning up. I am, however guilty of trying to shoehorn it into a template (set) [hat tips to GOIII Beeswaxcandle & Eliyak for valuable advice], which of course I hope you may find usable/useful. AuFCL (talk) 09:49, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

After you made the first edit (which I'm still pretty damn impressed by as is) I did dig into it to try learning how it was's obviously still rather experimental, for better or worse. I'm still at the point of being intimidated by the simplest wiki tables. :-) By "breaking drop caps," I mean, to put it in the most easily testable terms, ensuring that given degradation of images (whether by technical limitations or nonvisual reading devices), the text will still render clearly. For example, you can check this by seeing if the text otherwise represented in images displays as would be expected when you copy/paste into a plain text editor. I appreciate all the help, I am trying to learn from all of it. djr13 (talk) 10:38, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
A perfectly valid point, and that last edit of mine fails; as the alt-text on the image "cuts" before the "Development of A.W.I.U. 400" title, even though ideally it should come afterwards. Some (more) things to check for! AuFCL (talk) 12:25, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Poems and page breaks[edit]

I'm trying to transcribe a poem that has stanzas (or whatever the "paragraph" equivalent is called in poetry), and I'm having a problem with their transclusion into the main namespace. Namely, there's a stanza break at the end of one page, and the next page starts with a new stanza, but when transcluded into the main namespace it's all clumped together into one long double-stanza.

The pages in question are pages 5 and 6 of Index:Morning-Glories and Other Stories.djvu. Their transclusion is here.

I tried using {{nop}} like I would use if it were a paragraph that ended at the page break, but that didn't work. Nor did using a second {{nop}} at the top of the second page. I also tried inserting an extra few lines of whitespace within the <poem> tag, since those tags are whitespace-sensitive, but that didn't work either.

What is the appropriate template, tag, or structure to use to get this stanza-break to show up in the main namespace transclusion? Mukkakukaku (talk) 15:40, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I tried using an {{nop}} inside the <poem> tags at the bottom of the first page and the top of the second page; for some reason, it seems to have worked. Could you please check whether it works now? —Clockery Fairfeld [t·c] 16:00, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
Yep, works now! Thanks, Clockery. I'd like to say that I would have figured it out eventually, but I'd never have thought to put the {{nop}} inside of the <poem> tags themselves. It seems like a very convoluted solution to what appears to be a rather imple problem. Thanks! Mukkakukaku (talk) 16:12, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure, but I seem to have inadvertently avoided this in my poems-across-breaks endeavors. I've been adding little passive-aggressive hidden comments onto poem tags that should ideally wrap gracefully, the presence of these extra tags being that which may or may not be related to the joining behavior. For example, see the page breaks between 22, 23 and 24. Might be another option in your arsenal, especially if you want to blow off steam while at it. :-) djr13 (talk) 21:46, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
I rather like Djr13's approach. Almost psychotherapy: "How does young madam Poem feel about behaving today?"

Please pardon my mucking about thrown into the mix. Apart from the centring I don't think I've added anything much useful.

I am aware of editors who avoid the use of <poem> entirely. Enclosing the whole passage inside (say) {{block center/s}}/{{block center/e}} pairs (which cross pages O.K.) and then using <br/>s at every line-break is much more robust, but of course the raw source is then quite ugly. AuFCL (talk) 22:17, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Paragraph break not visible[edit]

On this page A break between two paragraphs is not visible in read mode and they appear as one continuous paragraph. The text is enclosed by {{fs90/s}} — with {{fs90/e}} embedded in the footer. Since I am using the Modern skin, I also checked if the problem was skin related by switching back to Vectra, but the result is the same. Can someone please point out what's wrong? Thanks. — Ineuw talk 18:37, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

The first sentence of the {{fs90/s}} template page says "This template renders the text of a single paragraph at 90% of normal size." (emphasis mine) Mukkakukaku (talk) 19:13, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Face-smile.svg The text was copied from {{fs90}} which I created. {{fs90/s}} was created for multiple paragraphs. (I should correct that). Also, the paragraph break has nothing to do with the font. There is something wrong with that page. If you look at subsequent pages, the paragraph breaks work fine.— Ineuw talk 19:33, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
@Mukkakukaku: Thanks for pointing this out. Two different templates share the same documentation which technically shouldn't happen. I posted a request on GO3's talk page, to help me sort it out.— Ineuw talk 19:55, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
I kicked it, and it seems to work now. djr13 (talk) 20:22, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, a good kick. — by Ineuw earlier this afternoon.
I cannot necessarily give a lucid explanation, but {{fs90/s}} only works for a single paragraph unless:
  1. You separate the last "}" of the template from the text you want it to affect by a new line; or
  2. You enclose the following paragraphs in <p>/</p>s (or some template (like {{p}} which generates them.)
Mediawiki appear to "shoehorn" <div>s (upon which the operation of e.g. {{fs90}} relies) correctly in only at certain points. This is not the problem; the real problem is that if it cannot find a suitable "spot" (<p>s being one, there may be others..?) it silently refuses to process "double-new-lines" into proper paragraphs up to the end of the enclosing </div>. I can only assume this is a still-extant parser limitation of some antiquity. AuFCL (talk)
To be clear, in the above example I used {{fs90/s}} and not {{fs90}}, which was my own rudimentary & elementary contribution - functioning on single paragraphs and I no longer use, having switched to GO3's version of {{fs90/s}} & {{fs90/e}} hundreds of times, but never came across this problem beforehand.— Ineuw talk 00:58, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
<generic expletive>I mistyped. The earlier discussion was meant to refer to {{fs90/s}}, not to {{fs90}} as originally stated. The rest of the discussion, however clumsy, still stands. AuFCL (talk) 01:54, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
Understood both the correction and your explanation. I just wanted to clarify the history for those who still use {{fs90}} to span multiple paragraphs. In any case, I replace them when I come across them, whether they are used on single or multiple paragraphs.— Ineuw talk 02:32, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Google page removal[edit]

Could someone remove the initial "Google" page for Index:A Hundred and Seventy Chinese Poems (1919).djvu? This transcription project seems to have gone fallow, and I'd like to take it on, but not until the pagination is corrected from removal of the Google notice. --EncycloPetey (talk) 19:31, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg DoneIneuw talk 20:19, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to do that? I usually just mark the page 'without text' when I find them. Mukkakukaku (talk) 20:23, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes we should, because it appears on the Commons. Others can give you other and better reasons as well. It's not a big deal and several people here can do it for you, or tell you how it's done before uploading.
The fundamental issue is that we should look on IA for other copies NOT donated by Google because they tend to damage the works deliberately to their advantage, a topic sometimes discussed in the past.
Another downside of using Google copies with the disclaimer page, is that we can't use the direct IA to Commons transfer tool because it must be downloaded to remove their disclaimer. — Ineuw talk 21:05, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Another issue with leaving the Google page in is that it often displaces pagination by one so that left hand pages become odd-numbered and right hand pages even-numbered. This messes up automatic heading creation. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 22:58, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Beeswaxcandle, in such a case just remove a page at the end of the book which is often a back cover or library card - some useless page for our purpose. I believe that brings the book back to the correct pagination. Cheers friends, —Maury (talk) 04:15, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Quick poll on Unicode use[edit]

Greetings all. I have come across a number of pages (e.g. here and here) where the authors make use of an upside-down Greek iota. Whilst I have found Unicode &#8489; (℩), I am not confident it will work in all cases (i.e. does the dreaded blank box appear here →℩← for anyone? Microsoft browsers?) and would appreciate any feedback.

Alternatively has anybody got any ideas as to how to express this more universally? (I've temporarily given up on finding a <math> solution, but one would be really nice bearing in mind the nature of this particular work…) I note that even a related Wikipedia article seems to have given up on this, and simply uses the normal (unturned) Greek iota. AuFCL (talk) 01:39, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, all I see is the dreaded null-box (though i'm still @ IE8 fwiw). -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:51, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
I was afraid of that. Please consider every single other syllable I am thinking or uttering currently to be swearing. AuFCL (talk) 03:47, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Right. This makes me feel quite nauseous, but does this\scriptstyle{\iota}← work everywhere, please? AuFCL (talk) 04:23, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Both work for me (FF 27.0.1, Vista). —Clockery Fairfeld [t·c] 04:55, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Both also work with (FF 27.0.1, Mac OS X Mavericks)--kathleen wright5 (talk) 11:22, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
P.S also works with Mac Safari --kathleen wright5 (talk) 11:27, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
I see both of them (FF 24.3.0, Debian GNU/Linux sid). I think it probably better to use the right character and assume that it will be supported in the future then to stress about every system today, especially for a work that will take forever to process and has a limited but continuing appeal.--Prosfilaes (talk) 09:34, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I "see" the second example (IE8, XP-Pro) but its not being rotated 180 degrees in the rendering, leaving me with the expected greek small letter iota (U+03B9) instead of the faux desired turned greek small letter iota (U+2129). -- George Orwell III (talk) 00:10, 14 March 2014 (UTC)


Any help? The {{Unicode}} template was in the Symbols set of CharInsert all this time btw. -- George Orwell III (talk) 00:10, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely it helps!
O.K. Once more for the dummies (me.):
  • Does this mean →← works for everybody?
  • It should but only another survey would verify that. I'll start - works for (IE8, XP Pro) -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Works here as well (FF 27.0.1, Vista Basic). —Clockery Fairfeld [t·c] 08:30, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
  • (Responding to my own poll feels weird, but) I had an unexpected opportunity in my "other life" to have a quick look at these pages using bog-standard Internet Explorer 11. No problems with anything (symbols or rotations.) In fact it rendered more cleanly than it did under Firefox. Almost embarrassing! 10:55, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
  • If I go back and enclose any "raw" character entity inside a {{Unicode}} invocation Internet Explorer will finally get into line with the other browsers and actually make use of the correct fonts?
  • Just for my own curiosity, I wonder if Internet Explorer correctly rotates this: →\scriptstyle{\iota}←—if so: time to consider updating {{rotate}}…
  • Not here (IE8, XP Pro). The version on WP explains why IE8 needs a LUA version for that to work. -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

(Aside/Rant—please feel free to generally ignore.) So the fonts were there all along? And not pulled in when needed? Why do we bother? Who writes sensible software any more? Pardon the sarcasm; but this seems to have been unnecessarily painful for such an apparently trivial issue. AuFCL (talk) 01:56, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Not quite. A "patch" for Unicode & IPA was added some time ago to common.js in order to get the {{Unicode}} template to at least do that under XP. And, again compare our outdated version to what WP uses - still not the latest & greatest if we go by them. -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
UPDATE: I decided instead to change my IE8's 'webpage font' selection in IE's settings to "Lucida Sans Unicode" and, lo-&-behold, even &#8489; (℩) renders properly now - no {{Unicode}} template or class definition needed, PLUS "sans-serif" (the wiki-code, load.php defined, default font) resumes being the "fall-back" core font being rendered just like it always has for me. This is OK by me until somebody comes up with a way to reproduce the same behavior I just did without altering IE's settings since this station is almost dedicated just to accessing wiki-whatever domains anyway. -- George Orwell III (talk) 04:49, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Das ist gut, ja! AuFCL (talk) 05:07, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Proofreading alignment issue[edit]

Is anyone else having problems proofreading texts? When I click on a red link, the page loads but the image and text box are not aligned as normal. The text box stretches the entire length of the page and the image is underneath it. I'm using the vector skin.—Zhaladshar (Talk) 13:45, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Nevermind. I figured it out. The column editing size in Preferences somehow got blown up to 80 columns for the text editor.—Zhaladshar (Talk) 13:47, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
It only worked for one image. Now the problem is back. Is anyone else having this issue on Chrome?—Zhaladshar (Talk) 13:56, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Does hard-refreshing work? —Clockery Fairfeld [t·c] 14:13, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
I am going to really, really regret pointing this out, but you seem to have accurately described the behaviour resulting from checking Preferences/Editing option "Use horizontal layout when editing in the Page namespace." AuFCL (talk) 17:11, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
It's unchecked for me. I tried checking it, and I got a different layout, but one which was still possible to do proofreading. The behavior I'm having issues with is that the text box extends the entire width of the page, which pushes the image to be all the way below the text box, meaning I have to scroll down below the text box in order to see the picture, but then I can read the text unless I scroll all the way up. I wonder if there's a CSS issue on one of my pages that's messing with it...—Zhaladshar (Talk) 01:38, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
I looks like it's a Chrome issue. FireFox doesn't have the problem.—Zhaladshar (Talk) 01:44, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Oh well. Unfortunately I'm using F/F so my (lack of) observations can't help any further. Good luck and please let us know if you find the answer! AuFCL (talk) 04:11, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
@Zhaladshar: Could you please add here the work / page that you were having problems with? I am exploring various browsers (with the exception of IE), and have Chrome as well. Thanks.— Ineuw talk 17:34, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
This page exemplifies my problem. However, I've noticed if I'm signed out, the proofreading extension displays just fine. I'm led to think there's either a preference or a CSS/JS issue with my account.—Zhaladshar (Talk) 13:16, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Pardon this thought: I can get a similar effect to that which you describe by fooling around with the "width" style within class "prp-page-content" (e.g. by setting it to pretty much anything larger than the default of 50%.) Now as you point out the issue goes away when you are logged out, have you considered (carefully) disabling, say, your Special:Mypage/vector.css or (less likely) Special:Mypage/vector.js and seeing if something in either of these affects the problem? (Obviously please restore configurations after the trial.) AuFCL (talk) 13:52, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
If the above didn't correct the problem, then the settings may be stored in the cookies . . . as I have learned some time ago. Delete the cookies and create a fresh login.— Ineuw talk 19:02, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

@Zhaladshar:Is this still happening in Chrome? For about an hour or so around midnight (my local time) precisely the same behaviour as you originally described was happening to me in Firefox... and then the problem went away all by itself. Was there another software upgrade? Right now it is [1.23wmf19 (bbbc0b8)] however I have no idea how to check how long this has been activated. AuFCL (talk) 00:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

See the deployment Roadmap for that info. Although "we" weren't directly scheduled for "enhancements", changes elsewhere still can creep in and mess with us - especially cookie/caching wise. This has been going on for as long as I can remember but has become worse in the past couple of months. I managed to rectify some of this "weirdness" by localizing & tweaking the rest of the .js scripts previously loading from old.wikisource. That cut down on the amount of unneccessary cookie "refreshing" going on with anything related to the navigation sidebar (primarily under vector; stuff like Dynamic layouts' Display options, EPUB, BookMaker and similar gadgets that "build" additional menu choices in the sidebar).

It (MediaWiki:Base.js is still not perfect when it comes to "loading" & cookies -- and it might not have anything to do with the alignment issue at all -- but its the most obvious issue at the moment. The obvious test is to try loging in using some other 'puter but your own. -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:16, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I was aware of the Roadmap (and in fact checked it and the "mediawiki/core" list.) However I still don't know how to determine when (say) version bbbc0b8—which I assume is a git submission id?—was made active upon enWS. This may not even be a pertinent issue, and should be considered a most casual enquiry.

At the time the system malfunctioned for me I checked at least a subset of modifications (incidentally including Base.js; since you had mentioned it recently) and found no relevant changes whatsoever. This only confirms whatever did in fact change was outside of my normal "view" and in no way should be considered comprehensive. AuFCL (talk) 02:39, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

AuFCL - Not too long ago, the "roll-out" of a new version was clearly marked in the log/tree with a small graphic banner like "Head" & "Master" currently are. For some reason that stopped working so the only thing I can point to is the switch in the naming of static bits normally changed during an upgrade & stored in your browser's cache. You'd look for the first instance of something like....'wmf20/extensions/blah blah bah
...for the "next" release. If we go by that (not proven), the bump up happened around 6 pm Eastern standard time (-4 hours behind UTC ?) on the 27th.

Here's an oddity- anyone have a cached cookie from the wikidata domain last-modified two months in the future from now? -- George Orwell III (talk) 04:12, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Nice technique. Obviously I hadn't thought of that before. My browser here first "sighted" 1.23wmf19 about 3½ days ago; and has not "seen" 1.23wmf20 at all yet; so on the strength of this those upgrades seem unrelated to this matter. (No apparent future dating; I won't install the "prescient" extension here until it pre-emptively passes the Turing test.) AuFCL (talk) 11:00, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
@AuFCL:, I restored my vector.js and vector.css and it seems the issue is now working. I am not sure why but I no longer have any problems. Thanks for the help.—Zhaladshar (Talk) 13:31, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Tables broken in MULTIPLE works[edit]

I went to continue proofreading on a work and discovered that lines from a table were not transcluding.

The discovery was made at A History of Japanese Literature. The header for "BOOK THE FOURTH" is not transcluding in the table of contents, and neither is chapter VI. of BOOK THE SIXTH. These items used to appear in the transcluded table, but no longer do so.

I found the same problem at Chapter 3 of An Introduction to the Study of Fishes, where line item "67,68" does not transclude either.

In both instances, the problem is that the first table row from a page is not transcluding when a table spans multiple pages. Neither instance of this problem existed when I first set up the pages.

Has a change been made in the way tables must be formetted for transclusion when they span multiple pages? And does this mean we'll have to search our entire library for other instances in order to fix them? --EncycloPetey (talk) 03:39, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I've just had a look at the first of these. The {{nop}} was missing from the beginning of the page body on the second page. I've fixed that one. See Help:Page breaks#Tables across page breaks. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 04:14, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
Ah, so it has changed. The {{nop}} wasn't required before when I was setting up those pages. We may have to go back and correct a large number of works proofread before March 2013.
The {{nop}} creates an additional transclusion problem, however, as now the page number is not displayed to the left of the text. --EncycloPetey (talk) 05:04, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
@EncycloPetey: There is nothing new about needing a starting {{nop}}, it has been that way for many years to get MediaWiki to see the table component as a new line and table formatting. I am not sure how you have avoided that previously. I know that some used to avoid it by putting the new column starter on the end of the preceding page. If there are multiple works, you may find it more relates to your works, those that I have/seen edited should be okay, and I would think that for numbers of others it will be the same. — billinghurst sDrewth 06:58, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
If you are having issues with nop which I haven't seen before, you can always try
|text text text ...

at the top of the body part, which is a workable solution and what I used to use before nop. — billinghurst sDrewth 07:11, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Um, if it's been that way for "many years", then why wasn't that information mentioned in Help:Page breaks#Tables across page breaks before last March? That's when an edit was made to insert the information. Either way, it doesn't solve the current problem of the missing page number links. --EncycloPetey (talk) 14:53, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
The information to use nop has been there since InductiveLoad wrote the page in 2011. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 05:07, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
It cannot be "fixed" as long as wiki-markup for tables is in use. Even with straight HTML, the proofreading page extension with transclusion won't allow an embedded page number to be inserted at the correct point (the begining of a new Page: rather than the end of the previous Page:). This behavior has been that way since I can remember. -- George Orwell III (talk) 22:45, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Two pages per image[edit]

I uploaded from the Internet Archive a DjVu file which has two pages per image: Index:Casement Report.djvu. Does anybody know of an easy way to split each image into two so that there would be only one page per image? Thanks. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 21:28, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

TOC formatting help[edit]

Can I bug someone to format the first page of this TOC for me using a "simple" table as opposed to templates? and then I can copy the formatting for the remaining pages myself. I'm just not sure how to format the titles with Roman Numerals (indentation). The text has already been proofread. Sorry if the pre-wikilinking makes things messier and more complicated. Thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 05:09, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Formatted the TOC but couldn't finish it because I ran out of steam. I can continue tomorrow if it's OK with you.
For anchors, I ALWAYS use the DjVu page number because they are unique! This is the most logical way (to me) and I don't need to think of what I did, and where. My anchors are always use this format: anchor=D32-1 The "D" is necessary because anchors must start with an alphabetic character, the number following indicates that it's on DjVu page number 32, and -1 indicates that it's the first anchor on the page. If there is more than one anchor on a page, as there are in this case, I number them sequentially as . . . D32-2, D32-3, . . . etc. The Roman numbers mentioned above are only for display, but the only true reference in the Page namespace are the DjVu numbers, in the main namespace the webpage names. — Ineuw talk 06:52, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for helping! I will be away from the computer for a bit as well. When I return, I have a couple comments/questions about your adjustments to formatting of the poetry. Till then, thanks much again, Londonjackbooks (talk) 14:18, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Wow! You have done the whole TOC... Thank you! With regard to adding {{Dhr}}, however, between stanzas... I use a double carriage instead. I don't plan on using Dhr with the rest of the work, for that is not how I have formatted the remaining 200+ pages so far, and I don't plan on changing every page/instance. For formatting uniformity's sake, I am considering removing the ones you have added, but I am hesitant thinking you might take it wrong... Also, I have been noincluding the rules, but I noticed you have re-included some of them. Again, for uniformity, I don't plan on including them for the remainder of the text (formatting decision since the separation between poems is not necessary for our page layouts like it perhaps was in the original), so I believe I will undo what you have done there as well. Hoping you won't mind, and thanks again for your help with the TOC; you have done more than I expected/asked, and it is much appreciated! I hadn't considered linking the page numbers to anchors; it seems more work than is necessary, since the poems are already linked to by their titles. So I'll have to add anchors from now on when proofreading then, right? Thanks again, Londonjackbooks (talk) 19:03, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Can I actually undo the anchoring system? I just don't feel it is necessary since sectioning is already used in the titles, and it is more (complicated) work (for me) than I would like to take on. Would you be offended since you already put in the work you had done? I won't ask you to make the changes... I can do it myself. Would you be too disappointed? Londonjackbooks (talk) 19:16, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Hi. First, you're most welcome and I apologize for the implemented, but unasked for changes. Please feel free to make any and all changes. Even I wasn't sure about all the anchors, with the possible exception of a few. The {{Dhr}} was used because I wasn't sure that you were aware of the template. It would be proper if I reverted the changes to save you from doing the extra work. — Ineuw talk 20:15, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
I just feel bad with all the work you have done (which I do appreciate). I would carry on with anchors, etc. where you left off if I was feeling more ambitious, but alas!... I was aware of {{Dhr}} and have used it on certain occasions, just not between stanzas. I feel a double-carriage is sufficient (and easier!). But thank you! Don't worry about reverting anything for me; I don't mind going through the pages, as I have already taken note of which pages you have adjusted. No problems there! Again, thanks for the TOC formatting, and thanks for being gracious about any reversions/adjustments I might make with your work. I am always open to suggestions, however, even though I may be stubborn and set in my ways on occasion! Sincerely, Londonjackbooks (talk) 20:39, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I removed all the Dhr and reverted the noincludes. I feel about my work in the same way, and appreciate your sense of consistency. When making the changes, I was also ready to revert them for that very reason.Face-smile.svg. Just as a qualification, I designed the {{Dhr}} because over a year ago, my work was edited and double rows were reverted to single rows. Having some knowledge of database storage, I assumed that they were removed because empty lines may contribute to data corruption. (To be certain, someone in the know would have to clarify this.) The anchors need only to be removed in the TOC, but they can stay in the text. This really depends on how you visualize the transcluded material - in case you want to place more than one poem on a page. Again, sorry for the unnecessary extra work.— Ineuw talk 21:00, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
You need not apologize. You made things easier for me, and I have learned some things to boot! All is appreciated, Londonjackbooks (talk) 21:19, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
@Ineuw: made it easy for me by establishing the basic indent structure, however I have just added a simple span to each of the (relevant, i.e. not all) Roman numerals to pull them into alignment more closely mirroring the book. I was a little surprised that an explicit width styling does not appear to be required when applied inside a table cell, but it most certainly is for standalone use. In case it is needed here is the (fuller) version:
<span style="display:inline-block;text-align:right;width:2em;>XVI</span>
N.B. Adjust "2em" above to be just wider than the longest number in the whole sequence; vary XVI as appropriate. Eggs. AuFCL (talk) 23:56, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for that, AuFCL. Londonjackbooks (talk) 00:10, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Noticed this too late but I am ready to add a third column with right aligned text if you so desire. That's the only way I know how to resolve this issue.— Ineuw talk 02:15, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

The Public General Statutes (1896)/Table VI[edit]

I have an unusal problem with this.

It previews Ok, but then doesn't render OK once saved.

Can someone please sanity check the transcluded pages and templates, to make sure I haven't overlooked something obvious? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:27, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I've done some work on the 1st table on top of the page, but I am not familiar with your coding style for the rest and it's best that I don't touch it.— Ineuw talk 17:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

What titles to use?[edit]

I'm probably going to transcribe (eventually) Medical Inquiries and Observations, by Benjamin Rush. The problem is, the work is in 5 volumes, with each one having a different title. Should I create a separate page for each volume, or should I create one "master" page?--Frglz (talk) 05:00, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Because they are volumes of the same work, the preference would be have them under one main page with a sub-page for each volume. (See History of England (Froude) for an example of how this works.) By the way, I note that the links on the author page are to different editions. Best practice is to have all the volumes from the same edition. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 06:05, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

A couple of questions from a new person.[edit]

A) When a document has stamps on it, how are those to be transcribed?

B) When a page is missing an image, is it okay to crop a copy of the scan and remove the background?A480641 (talk) 22:21, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I checked through your contributions and the following reply is based on the pages you worked on:
By stamps, if you mean the library stamps, etc. - The answer is no. We don't copy them.
By missing image, if you are referring to the main page of the 1931 "The Highway code", (or any other image) - we try our best to use high resolution images because the .djvu image is very low resolution. If you can find a higher resolution image on the web and need help, send me the link and I will explain what can be done. FYI - most, but not all, of our documents & projects come from Internet Archive and they also have high resolution .JP2 versions of the same .djvu files. That's where we get our images from. In your case, the document comes from elsewhere, and that's why I recommend that you look for a higher resolution image. I hope this helps.— Ineuw talk 23:55, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

"Transclusion limits", etc.[edit]

Looking for advice on what to do about the TOC's (there are two sets) for the PotM. In the second set, to quote ShakespeareFan00, "The original format is in the early revision, but I went back to a simpler template formatting because the transclusion broke, due to the use of a lot of templates. Feel free to put the formatting back, but the transclusion limits will need to be looked into."

Question. Should the template formatting for all the TOC pages be simplified (that would mean changing 5 pages of TOC formatting), or can something be done about the "transclusion limits" for the two 'problematic' pages instead? This is beyond my ability. Thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 19:51, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

The only way to come in under the limit is to reduce the overall amount of templates and/or per-template parameters being applied. I know the root of the problem there is most likely the "resource expensive" {{Dotted TOC page listing}} template but Shakes has embedded it in some custom cascading template scheme that I just cannot follow.

I did try to make a less "intensive" dot-leader template based on some previous testing done with the help & input of fellow contributors - its in Template:Td/dot/sandbox if that helps him any. Other than that, and if reducing the amount of overall template-mass at play does not solve the problem, it looks like you'll need to split Pt 1 and Pt 2 into separate sub-pages. -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:45, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

@GO3: Would it not just be 'simpler' to simplify the formatting? It might take me a while, but I could manage (tackle) it. It doesn't seem desirable at this point to split the Parts up (if I understand what you mean). @ShakespeareFan00: Do you have any objections to my simplifying the TOC pages, or do you want to follow some other course suggested by GO3? My opinion is to keep it simple, but that is because I am simple minded. Londonjackbooks (talk) 03:06, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
No objections here & of course "simplifying it" is the easiest way to go. -- George Orwell III (talk) 03:11, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
{{td/dot}} is where the problem arises... Simplify that template and thigns become easier. No objections to simplifications. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 07:32, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

1936 posthumous British text might still be copyright in the United States - please check[edit]

I am confused about the US copyright status of the English translation of the poem L'après-midi d'un faune by Bloomsbury Group artist Roger Fry. Would someone with clearer understanding of US law please review the tags I posted there, and come up with a suitable US tag? Although it became public domain in 1984, I think the URAA might have put it back in copyright in the US, and it may have to be taken down from Wikisource. --Hroðulf (talk) 09:24, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

This is complicated but British law might be the main problem rather than American. In 1995 UK statutory instrument SI 1995/3297 harmonised British copyright with Europe, which both extended the copyright period to 70 years pma and retroactively revived copyrights that had entered the public domain. So Fry's work The Poems of Mallarmé would have been in the public domain in 1985 but back under copyright from 1995 to 2005 in the UK and the rest of Europe. That's when the URAA becomes an issue. The URAA would only have brought the translation back into copyright if it was in copyright in its home country in 1996 (the URAA was the US response to the international community pressuring them to get into line on international copyright law, similar to the British SI). If it had been in the public domain in the UK in 1996, it would not have been affected by the URAA. However, as it had been brought back into copyright in the UK one year earlier, the URAA also brought it back into copyright in the US. Then a completely separate US law extended the copyright term to 95 years from publication, so it is probably still under copyright in the United States. The posthumous publication would have probably only affected the copyright if it had been published after 2004 (70 years pma). I'm not sure if I've got all of that right, so Im going to attach a {{copyvio}} and copy this thread to Wikisource:Possible copyright violations. Please note that the original French version is in the public domain so, if your French is up to it, a Wikisource translation is still possible. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:59, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Things have changed... need some help[edit]

Hi all! Things seem to have changed a lot since I was here last, and I'm having a bit of trouble. Perhaps I'm being a bit dense, but I am attempting to follow the instructions on Help:Adding_texts and other pages linked, and am having major issues. The Help pages lead me to believe that after having created Index:Address as the ABA president.pdf, I should be able to start entering text by going to, for example, Page:Address as the ABA president.pdf/3. All I'm getting is errors. I can't enter any text (only the edit summary box is coming up), and if I click on "Image", some background process seems to die. There's also no Button ocr.png button. Any help would be appreciated, thanks. Storkk (talk) 15:01, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Everything you've done looks right. I'm afraid I can't tell what the problem is at the moment. There is a known problem with PDFs that affects Commons' thumbnail generator but the file appears to be working on Commons itself, so I don't think that's it (besides, that bug still generated the page image only without the words, which was weird). I also get an "Error generating thumbnail" message from the "Image" link:
Error creating thumbnail: /bin/bash: line 1: 24798 Done 'gs' '-sDEVICE=jpeg' '-sOutputFile=-' '-dFirstPage=3' '-dLastPage=3' '-r150' '-dBATCH' '-dNOPAUSE' '-q' '/tmp/localcopy_222d13c1788b-1.pdf'
24799 Killed | 'convert' '-depth' '8' '-resize' '3743' '-' '/tmp/transform_ee2e1b9e46a5-1.jpg'
The problem may lie with the Proofread Page extension. Someone with more knowledge of the software might be able to give you a better answer. It might even be worth a bug report.
I'm not sure about the OCR button; I never used it and it might have been removed. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:03, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
I've fixed the problem with the thumbnails—for some reason the scan resolution had been set to 0. WRT the OCR button, the default is disabled. You can enable this through the gadgets in your Preferences. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 19:08, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks very much, AdamBMorgan and Beeswaxcandle... it is working now. Wrapping my head around the "new" (ha!) way of doing this here is proving a little challenge, but the changes over the last seven years seem on the whole to be extremely positive. Thanks again, Storkk (talk) 19:40, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

On the use of long s[edit]

When a page uses a long s (ſ) (e.g. Page:Selected Orations Swedish Academy 1792.djvu/82 should I use the long s symbol or a normal s? A480641 (talk) 14:36, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

The {{long s}} (shortcut: {{ls}}) template will switch between them (displaying the long s in the page namespace and a normal s in the main namespace). The original idea was to provide a switch, so that the reader could choose between long or normal, but the code didn't work properly and it hasn't been implemented yet. In theory, in the future, someone will make that work and the template will be used as part of that. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 16:42, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Historical scientific papers and monographs?[edit]

I'm a contributor to Wikiproject Paleontology on Wikipedia and I thought it would be cool if Wikisource could archive historical scientific papers and monographs about prehistoric life. However, while the introduction for new users refers to popular science articles, mention of the peer-reviewed literature is conspicuously absent. Does this reflect policy? Are technical works outside the scope of Wikisource or under a special copyright situtation that prevents their inclusion? Abyssal (talk) 02:10, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Definitely in scope. We have examples, though not very many. For one example see Character and description of Kingia, wherein is articulated for the first time the fundamental division between angiosperms and gymnosperms. Hesperian 03:50, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Glad to hear it! Nice to see a familiar face around here, too. Abyssal (talk) 14:29, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

An Index move/renaming help is asked for[edit]

This file Index:Mexico, Aztec, Spanish and Republican.djvu needs to be moved and renamed as Index:Mexico, Aztec, Spanish and Republican, Vol 1.djvu because it's made up of two volumes. For this, the commons source file Commons:File:Mexico, Aztec, Spanish and Republican.djvu also needs to be moved/renamed. How this affects the WS Index is unknown to me, especially the order of renaming is my concern. I am also no clue as to how the move on WS affect the pages. The book is validated.

I would like to do it but need knowledgeable direction. Thanks in advance.— Ineuw talk 03:06, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

You can move the Commons file and everything here will continue to work via the redirect. When you move the Index file, all the pages will break until they are moved too. You can post a Wikisource:Bot requests for someone to move all the pages. Hesperian 09:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the information.— Ineuw talk 15:19, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Transcluded page is not linking to moved Index pages.[edit]

Cleared all caches that are user accessible, but this page still doesn't recognize the source index. Could someone please help? Mexico, Aztec, Spanish and Republican, Vol 1/Book I/Chapter 1 For my own knowledge, is this a cache issue, and if so, do users can manage this? Thanks.— Ineuw talk 23:11, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Typo in the Pages command line - its volume 1 (the number one) not volume I (capital letter i). -- George Orwell III (talk) 00:57, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks GO3.— Ineuw talk 01:41, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Revalidate Page:A Plea for the Middle Classes.djvu/22[edit]

Anyone? Nice quick task. Can't self validate for obvious reasons. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Done. —Clockery Fairfeld [t] 13:46, 10 April 2014 (UTC)


Way back before i got to know about m-dashes I used {{bar|1}} a lot. Ideally these should be replaced. with m-dasheses, i.e "—" Any ideas on how to do this?ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:39, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

A replace bot can run; it should be about 600 pages (test edit).--Mpaa (talk) 22:53, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:23, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Done.--Mpaa (talk) 20:18, 11 April 2014 (UTC)


I'm in the process of slowly depreceating these over concerns about parser load.

The assistance of the regulars in re-engineering the tables using them would be appreciated. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:25, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Re validation request[edit]

Page:A Basic Guide to Open Educational Resources.pdf/109 Had a stubborn URL that was making trouble. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:48, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Costly templatws[edit]

Found this one - Template:Table row 1dot-1 which needs to be replaced. 19:10, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

And now deprecated and tagged for speedy deletion. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:44, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Page:Bradshaw's Monthly (XVI).djvu/32 ‎[edit]

Table rowspans won't format as intended. Can someone beat mediawiki into submission please?ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:04, 16 April 2014 (UTC)


Edna W. Underwood has a collection of translations entitled Moons of Nippon, translations from poets of old Japan. Should the Wikisource page be Moons of Nippon, or Moons of Nippon, translations from poets of old Japan?--Frglz (talk) 22:00, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I usually just use the main title and only add the subtitle if needed for disambiguation. So, I suggest Moons of Nippon would be fine. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 22:56, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
OK, thank you.--Frglz (talk) 09:15, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Robert Fortune page[edit]

It would appear that a couple of the dates on this page could be suffering from a typo. The list appears to be in chronological order but from date of 1820 or so there is a jump to the 1850s or so. Can this be correct?


Good catch, Anne. Indeed the dates were incorrect. Fixed by @Clockery: -- DutchTreat (talk) 18:47, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
@Anne Mac: Next time, you can try fixing typos like that yourself wink Best regards,—Clockery Fairfeld (ƒ=ma) 04:38, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Need help with a TOC design problem.[edit]

In the process of adding wiki links to the TOC design OF THIS PAGE I found that the text often runs into the page number. Changing the font size and/or the column width fixes one paragraph but another gets messed up. I copied the first entry to THIS SANDBOX and ask if someone can suggest how to prevent this from happening.— Ineuw talk 03:22, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

One possible solution in two halves:
  1. Note you have used {{float right}} for page numbers. This is O.K. but may I suggest adding suitable margin-offset (parameters 2,3,4 are respectively: offest, top+bottom(combined) and left.) Recommend setting left margins to (say) 1em?
  2. Above half solution can itself cause vertical line collision effects. To counter this may I suggest separating each "paragraph"/sub-block with some variant of {{-}} to ensure proper clearing completes before next block begins?
I have added one possible layout method to your sandbox. If you find the paragraph marker usage too confusing then try substituting with {{clear}}s per above? AuFCL (talk) 08:20, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
I've added a different solution to your sandbox without an explicit table. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 09:33, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Interesting use of negative-right-offsets. Good idea! AuFCL (talk) 10:54, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Copyright status of scientific paper[edit]

This work seems to be a public domain government document. Is it?--Frglz (talk) 20:39, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, this PDF contains Google watermarks. Do the watermarks make the work non-PD, and so have to be removed, or can the PDF be used for transcribing even with the watermarks?--Frglz (talk) 20:56, 22 April 2014 (UTC)