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Newbie needing clarification on indentation practices[edit]

Heya everyone. I've asked a few questions before and here's another one. The style guide conventions on indenting state that one generally shouldn't indent new paragraphs. This makes total sense to me since most indented new paragraphs in old texts were simply to save space. My question is, what is the generally accepted way of handling indents that are obviously deliberately inserted in the text?

Take this page where the author's "signature" and the publishing/writing date are both in/outdented, or this page where various parts are in/outdented for what I assume were the style conventions of the day. As you can see from the links, I've handled this in a rather clumsy way by using {{spaces}}, but it looks wonky and doesn't convey the way the original letter looks. Should I drop the indentation, and if so, how should these various pieces of text be treated? Sincerely, InsaneHacker (💬) 20:27, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

The best template for deliberate spacing is {{gap}}, used the same way you have used {{spaces}}. With regard to your specific examples:
  • (1) the indents are okay but unnecessary as they are not any different than other paragraphs, you will note that the publishing/writing date is indented identically to the paragraphs above it on previous pages, and the signature is just the same but on the other margin.
  • (2) Same as (1) for the dates and signatures. Note that the paragraphs beginning "The intention of my letter" and "N. B. It may be proper" are normal paragraphs and their indentation should not be reproduced. The greeting "Sir" is definitely deliberately placed and you can use {{gap}} to place it with an increased margin.
Beleg Tâl (talk) 20:49, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

(ec) A suggestion:


{{gap|1em}}''Philadelphia'', ''July'', 1797.

More fun -> [1] (which, giving it another look, I may tweak some) Londonjackbooks (talk) 20:53, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks to you both, I'll try out {{gap}} and tweak the pages mentioned by Beleg Tâl. Respectfully, InsaneHacker (💬) 21:07, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
@InsaneHacker:As a general comment, when you do a copy and paste of gap template, then the "gap" will disappear. When you do a copy and paste of spaces, or if you indent where something like   was used, then they will be captured in the paste. I often use that difference as an indicator to how, and when, I use respective templates/approaches.

With any work that you are reproducing here, if you end up making a stylistic choice, we ask that you record that information on the "Index talk:" page of the work, so whomever comes after you is able to see and continue that formatting. Or otherwise engage in conversation about the choice. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:44, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Works of James Frederick Ferrier[edit]

{{process header
 | title =
 | section =
 | previous =
 | next =
 | shortcut =
 | notes =

I don't know what this means: "This page should include a {{process header}} template. Please review its documentation and Help:Style guide."

A newbie, I joined primarily for one purpose I have a number of works already in text (OCR'd and proofed). I'm not trying to make extra work for anybody. I've done a lot of work that shouldn't all be duplicated. Can text be uploaded rather than starting with page images? Or must page images be loaded and then can text be pasted page by page? Klarm768 (talk) 17:49, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

@Klarm768: We have a preference for scan-supported transcriptions as that allows us to have two levels of verification of text, and allows for future checking. That said, we do not insist on scans. [By the way, if you have scans and proofed OCR'd text, we do have the means to put them back together]

Sounds as though we can start with an author page ... Author:James Frederick Ferrier ... rather than a portal page, and list works from there. Then we can assist you in creating pages for the works. — billinghurst sDrewth 21:17, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: Thanks. The formats/conventions here are very disquieting, foreign, & anti-intuitive to me. If you can guide me to start with Author:James Frederick Ferrier author page ... creating one page for his first work, importing the page-images for that work, guiding me how to paste existing text and assign text-formats ... I would be most appreciative.Klarm768 (talk) 21:46, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
@Klarm768: Generally author pages are simpler listings — * ''title'' (year of edition) though we can insert a little extra information at times. We record edition data with our transcriptions (usually title page), and that data is also migrated to Wikidata. (Noting that edition metadata is of more importance to us than book metadata,) I would suggest that you add your list of works to that page and we can come along and tidy. From there we can drill into the works. For our works, we usually have edition data and table of contents at root level, and chapters become subpages, though it is very dependent on the work presented by the author and the publisher. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:40, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: You lost me. How do I find/create this author page? IF I find it what will I do first? Second? Etc? My list of works is 31 items, but I'm afraid I won't survive getting the first one started. I uploaded a PDF to wikimedia, completed the process, and site gave me file information to paste somewhere but I can't find where to put it. I hope this gets less opaque soon. Klarm768 (talk) 22:55, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

User:Klarm768 This page has been deleted. The deletion, protection, and move log for the page are provided below for reference. 18:31, 29 October 2017 Beleg Tâl (talk | contribs) moved page User:Klarm768 to User talk:Klarm768 without leaving a redirect (sorry, posted the comment on the wrong page) Klarm768 (talk) 23:02, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Breathe! smiley I am going to hazard a guess that you are new to wikis, and not just new to Wikisource. So that changes how we talk about things and what we assume, and what is different! Now I may get others to help, as I should be doing some work.
  1. author page --link--> Author:James Frederick Ferrier. Add your works to works section as a list. Use format above (asterisk become bullets, double apostrophe becomes italics)
  2. deleted page. That is your user page where you can put stuff for reference or links. It pairs to your user talk page where we have conversations with you. A colleague put their welcome message on the wrong page and corrected themself, and you are just seeing that result. Not to fuss, we can get there later.
billinghurst sDrewth 23:15, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

@Klarm768: I posted a bunch of helpful links on your User Talk page (User talk:Klarm768). When I first posted it, I accidentally put it at your User page instead (User:Klarm768). That is why, when you go to User:Klarm768, it says that I moved the content from User:Klarm768 to User talk:Klarm768. I strongly recommend that you read through the links I posted. They contain the answers to many of your questions. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 12:26, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

How to mark an error in the original[edit]

Page:Fancy dresses described, or, What to wear at fancy balls (1887).djvu/63 contains an obvious error near the end of the page. It says that the Queen of Spades should wear a club. (A handwritten correction is present on the scan.) This isn't exactly a "spelling error", but is {{SIC}} still the correct way to mark this? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:59, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Still an obvious error that could be reasonably marked using {{SIC}}. --EncycloPetey (talk) 17:03, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. That's what I've done. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:16, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

creating an ebook[edit]

When trying to download Narrative_of_the_Life_of_Frederick_Douglass,_An_American_Slave as an epub, I only get the title page. When I download for instance A_Bid_for_Fortune I get the whole book. Can anyone explain that, please..... --Dick Bos (talk) 20:17, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

It's likely a problem with how the Contents are displayed from the main page. The Narrative... has a templated Contents instead of a transcluded table, which I suspect is the cause of the problem.
I've tried switching to an Auxiliary TOC. Does that correct the problem? --EncycloPetey (talk) 20:52, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Sometimes wrapping Tables of Contents in <div class="ws-summary">...</div> helps too. Sam Wilson 00:42, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
The TOC was wrapped in that tag before I made the change. It didn't seem to be helping. --EncycloPetey (talk) 02:36, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
It's alright now! Thanks a lot. --Dick Bos (talk) 09:42, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

My first index namespace[edit]

I want to create an index page for 'File:Image Fer38 02 INTRODUCTION TO THE PHILOSOPHY OF CONSCIOUSNESS—PART 1.pdf'

I've tried to get there through a couple different recommended "help" sources, but I always quit without creating the page.
  • The category always comes up BOOK and I have not figured out how to change that. It will permit me to select a subcategory of book, but nothing else.
  • This is a small segment of a large book, ONE article from ONE volume of ONE periodical:

I hoped to find fields to populate like those for Bibliographic sources articlename, periodicalname, volume, series, pages, year, month, publisher, editor, city, etc. Klarm768 (talk) 22:54, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by not being able to change the category. The type field of the index is a drop-down menu (with the options book, thesis, journal, collection, and dictionary) which appears to be working fine. Other similar single-article indexes seem to be variously categorised as book, thesis or journal; thesis seems to me to be the best choice here...
The article name, periodical name, volume and such can be mentioned in the title field. I believe all the other details have separate fields.
These indexes might help: Index:Electromagnetic effects of a moving charge.djvu, Index:MichelsonSodium1887.djvu, Index:Poincare Time.djvu
C. F. 12:25, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Hi Klarm, we already have some of Blackwood's Magazine available at Commons as full scanned volumes, rather than snippets containing single articles. Full volumes make it easier to proofread the rest of the volume and keep all the parts together. I have uploaded v43 for you at Index:Blackwood's Magazine volume 043.djvu. The rest of the volumes are mostly available at the Internet Archive and are linked to at Blackwood's Magazine. Your article starts at this page of the scan. Note, on the index page, there is some special handling of the page numbers, as there are errors in the physical numbering of the original.
I used a University of Toronto scan from the IA, as I find the Google black-and-white ones are quite hard to read. While the UofT ones are also not wonderful (sadly common in very long, dense scans), the OCR layer does seem pretty reasonable. I hope that helps. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:09, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 :@Clockery: I presumed thesis, journal, collection, and dictionary were types of books. At any rate I would not categorize this document under any of those.
I am hoping that the wikisource infrastructure accommodates scholarly citation conventions... Has any wikisource document ever been cited in a scholarly journal?
 :@Inductiveload: I have OCR'd, have proofed, and possess 31 works of James Frederick Ferrier, most extracted from various volumes of Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine.
I fantasize populating Ferrier's author namespace on Wikisource... which has no works identified at present. Does my fantasy work counter to Wikisource objectives?
Not at all, in fact, working on a focussed subset of works by topic or author is very common. You are welcome to transcribe only such articles of collective works as you wish. It's just easier to do it within the framework of the entire volume, so others can slot in other articles over time. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 15:35, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
@Inductiveload: Thanks. I appreciate your providing the link to that page. Surprisingly (since the image has so much dinginess and bleedthrough), the wikisource OCR is excellent... almost as good as when I used to tweak my own scans (I preferred B&W TIFFs and Kodak Imaging. Alas! for the days of Windows XP!). If you would oversee me until I can reliably emulate the steps you used in creating that page, I shall endeavor to produce the pages and proof the Ferrier articles in Volume 043 (of which there are three).
Yes, I try to read the instructions but it seems like I hang on wikiwords that are not yet in my usable vocabulary. Klarm768 (talk) 17:04, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
@Klarm768: Editing Wikisource can be a bit of a steep learning curve, between all the namespaces and conventions. I am happy to help you upload other volumes if you wish. If you'd like to attempt it yourself, the basic process is something like this:
  • Download the DJVU file from the Internet Archive for the volume you want (IA link at Blackwood's Magazine).
  • Upload the DJVU file to Commons with the name formatted like "Blackwood's Magazine volume 043.djvu" (consistency in naming makes templates work)
    • You can copy the Commons description text from v43, adding any other details you know
  • Create the Index page for the volume - copy v43 if unsure, but really, most of the fields are not critical.
    • The page list is the hardest bit here, as this publication seems to often have defects in the physical numbering, and maybe missing pages in some volumes. This bit can be very annoying, I find it easiest to have the DJVU open locally in a document reader (Evince/Xreader on Linux can read Djvu, no idea about Windows), for quick access to pages. It's not necessary to have the page list done for proofread, but without it, page numbers in the main namespace will be incorrect, so it's a good idea if you can.
  • You can now proofread the work.
    • I see you have already worked out the Section marker syntax, which is the most important bit for transcluding subsets of pages to the main namespace
  • When transcluding, I recommend using a main namespace title something like Blackwood's Magazine/Volume 43/Issue 268/An Introduction to the Philosophy of Consciousness:
    • It's "tidier" and allows sibling articles in the same issue/volume to exist in a rational framework
    • It's compatible with templates like {{article link}}
FYI, the OCR layer is generated by the Internet Archive, which uses ABBYY software and (I assume) a lot of experience, as it is generally excellent. The original scan images used for the OCR (look for JP2 at the IA) are much clearer than the heavily compressed DJVU, at least for UofT scans (Google doesn't provide the original images), but they are rather large (~500MB/vol). You can even get the IA to OCR your own scans if you upload them there. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 17:36, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
@Inductiveload: Thanks for your help. I'm starting to feel productive as I encounter purposes for new terms, grammar, and syntax... looking forward to finding out what transcluding is... dreading to learn how many proofing laws I've violated. I have proofed pages 187-201 and am starting 437-452... puzzled about a single footnote that consumes most real estate of three pages.Klarm768 (talk) 17:48, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
@Klarm768:. Glad it's coming together - your proofreading looks good so far! Don't worry about breaking rules - the worst case is that you make a mess of your own work and someone will help you fix it, there's nothing you can really accidentally break that will cause major problems. Exercise caution when editing templates that other works already use, this is the only way you can really "leak" errors outside your own domain.
I see you have worked out the "ref follow" technique. Transclusion (or "trans-namespace inclusion") is the way to get "Page" content into the main namespace. To pick an example from the New Text list, it's what gets you from Page:George Eliot (Blind 1883).djvu/11 (and later pages) to George Eliot (Blind 1883)/Chapter 1. See Help:Transclusion for extra details and corner cases. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 11:59, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
@Inductiveload: I hope that I correctly infer that, when an individual article from Blackwood's Maga has been transcluded, then as a free-standing document it can be linked to the J.F. Ferrier author namespace (perhaps not correct term, oh well). Thus it would serve my purposes and conceivably the eventual transclusion of an entire Blackwood's Magazine volume#_. Is that accurate? On a separate thread of purposes, do wikisource works have functionality of proximity text searches? How about across a defined collection of materials? I often want to find a passage out of which I remember a few words but don't remember which volume it was in. Currently I accomplish it with Acrobat Pro... but Adobe gives me headaches. PS: Today I have started proofing Vol.43 pg. 784-791. PPS: Do you know much about 19th century anonymous journalism and discovery of authorship? Klarm768 (talk) 13:14, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
@Klarm768: Yes, that's correct. I'd use the {{article link}} template on Author:James Frederick Ferrier (this in indeed in the author namespace) and name the transcluded main namespace (mainspace) article something like Blackwood's Magazine/Volume 43/Issue 268/An Introduction to the Philosophy of Consciousness. This allows other articles to be consistently named like Blackwood's Magazine/Volume 43/Issue 268/Other Article. Which leads nicely to:
As for searching, if you use a search query like "cat prefix:1911 Encyclopædia Britannica", it will search for instances of "cat" only in pages with titles starting "1911 Encyclopædia Britannica" (including subpages). This means you can search within volume and issue of works which are laid out as subpages.
For the anonymous authorship, I have no special powers there. I generally just use Google, and if there's no hint there or in the contents of the work in question, just call it "Anonymous" and move on. If anyone comes along later with more information, that can be added. From a copyright perspective, an anonymous work is generally public domain sooner than non-anonymous, as in the US it probably wasn't registered for copyright and outside the US, it's (usually) 70 years from publication, as opposed to 70 years from author's death (70 is common, depends on country). It's more complicated than that, but copyright always is! You can use {{PD-anon-1923}} to mark these anonymous articles. For pre-1923 works, it's always permissible on Wikisource anyway. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:08, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
@Inductiveload: I have "finished" proofing the three Ferrier pieces in Blackwood's Magazine/Volume 43. I presume that those who validate will eventually get around to that. I could start work on his other works in Volumes 44, 45, 46, 47, 50, 51, 53, 54, 56, 62, 70, 74. Perhaps I should say alleged work since none have a by-line. I hope you can advise me how to begin doing the part you did for me with your first intervention and uploading that page. I had hoped you had a particular interest/knowledge-base regarding Blackwoods. When I started down this road I didn't realize that, in that era, authorship ID was secret/private or pseudonymous. In the 1960's there was created The Wellesley Index... an index of authorship for that era (including Blackwood's). An expert in the arena provided me a list (perhaps not in compliance with his EULA) of Ferrier's works per The Index. I suspect that it is less than perfect but far better than Googleguessing. I have a particular interest in finding evidence regarding one article in a short-lived review journal of the 1840's... I covet the scholars' tool boxes, but I'm just a obsessive retired guy who enjoys being obsessive. Thanks for your patience.Klarm768 (talk) 18:58, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
@Inductiveload: I'm sorry to be such a pest. I have discovered extensive errors in my "proofing" and will be performing revisions. So I would not want them to be validated. I am studying your index page for volume 43 and think I can probably pull it off for volume 44 ...or come close... pages-field will be a challenge but I like that sort Klarm768 (talk) 14:43, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
@Inductiveload:I have completed my revisions and designated as proofread those pages in Blackwood's Magazine/Volume 43. I presume it was you who had been doing some clean-up on my pages... I spotted some revisions such as hyphenated-word-start-and-end. I tried to study and preserve them. I hoped I might be able to create an index page for Volume 44, but I suspect that something needs to be downloaded. 3 questions: Estimated time frame for those volume-43-pages transcluded? Do I talk to you about volume 44 download? Should I henceforth contact you through talk and let this field lie fallow?Klarm768 (talk) 19:28, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
@Klarm768: Glad to hear you have access to Wellesley - I could only grub up Volume 2 online (you need V1 for Blackwood, I think), and I'm not in a position to get hold of one in real life. There are people at WS who can help you with thorny questions needing research, but sadly I don't have much expertise or access.
It hasn't been me that corrected your proofreading, you can use the "View History" button to show who has edited a page. I think pages you edit are automatically "watched", you can also look at Special:Watchlist for edits made to these pages.
Generally, it's the proofreader who transcludes. I'm happy to do it for you as a demo, but there's certainly no need to wait for validation.
As for v44, I'll do it first for you. Technically, you don't need to download it from the IA, as there is an "ia-upload" tool. However, I'm working on a batch upload to Commons to save the effort in future. It's certainly handy to have the DjVu file locally on your machine when doing the page list, as they appear to be a bit messy, and it's much quicker to have a local copy to scrub through while working out what weirdness they got up to in the early 1800s!
We can continue on the talk page for Blackwood's Magazine if you prefer? My talk works for me too. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 18:04, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
@Inductiveload: I need to learn to use another talk locale but I wanted to let you know quickly, I managed to create an index page for Volume 44. I would appreciate your looking it over and offering any corrections.Klarm768 (talk) 23:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
@Klarm768: Looks good to me: the page numbers are correct for the last numbered page - always a good sign! I made a couple of tweaks on the index page (year, source and status). All pretty minor, looks like a good first rodeo!
To talk on another page, just go to that page's "Talk" page, and start a conversion - all pages in all namespaces have a "Talk" partner. It will show up on the watchlist of anyone watching the page, and you can also use {{ping}} to alert specific users manually. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 00:02, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


Is this work [[2]] public domain in Europe? I need to know because published before 1923 means it is public domain in US, but if it is not in Europe, then I cannot upload it at Wikimedia. I know quite nothing of EU copyright laws, so I need help from experienced users. I herd you liek mudkips (talk) 18:18, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

If the author(s), translator(s), and illustrator(s) of a work are named, and if they died more than 70 years ago, the work will be public domain in the UK and EU. Other situations require more research or other rules apply, and and you say, the US status must be judged separately. --EncycloPetey (talk) 18:32, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
According to the IA page: Wyss d. 1818, Rhead 1926, Howells 1920; should be ok. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 18:53, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Replacing an individual source page[edit]

This page is ripped but a complete page can be found here [3] is there a way to replace the individual page? GhostOrchid35 (talk) 09:43, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Done.— Mpaa (talk) 18:09, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks GhostOrchid35 (talk) 23:04, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
@Mpaa: could you do pages 163-4, 167-8 173-4 as well (also ripped)? Thank you.


Already did three works. When do completed books get completely proofread and added to the main pages? I herd you liek mudkips (talk) 22:10, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

As soon as someone takes the time to proofread them. It's all volunteer work. --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:14, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
In other words, some works may not go to the main space for years? I do often find some works which are unfinished. I herd you liek mudkips (talk) 22:25, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
This is true. You can always proofread the work yourself. Creating an unproofread page is no obstacle to doing the first proofread pass. And if a work is fully (or nearly) proofread, there are plenty of editors who can help with transcription and assembly of the book. But the first proofread is the stage that takes the most time. --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:30, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Also, Wikipedia seems to be edited like every second but it seems Wikisource is not. How come? Also, it seems others wikis do not get the same amount of attention as Wikipedia. I herd you liek mudkips (talk) 22:27, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
On Wikipedia, the edits are creative, and often very minor. Here, we have fewer editors, and usually are trying to match an original source rather than synthesize a new article. Some editors prefer the creative side, while others prefer the monastic copying. --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:30, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
@I herd you liek mudkips: This is definitely true. Part of it is due to the nature of the editing (as Petey pointed out) and part of it is just due to ignorance that these sister projects exist. —Justin (koavf)TCM 23:06, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Help with indexes[edit]

I'm trying to work on The Digital Public Domain's index (see Page:The digital public domain.pdf/6 and Page:The digital public domain.pdf/7). Is there any guide or example I can adapt from?

Also, unrelated question: this book contains some screenshots that are likely copyrighted, such as this. Should I just tag {{Image missing}} and move on?

Reviewing help would be appreciated, too. Thanks! NMaia (talk) 12:56, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

There are a few ways to do tables of contents; an example of my preferred method can be viewed at Page:Writings of Saint Patrick, Apostle of Ireland.djvu/11. For copyrighted images, use {{Image removed}}, and you will also need to make sure the PDF scan is replaced by one in which the images are removed also. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:17, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! Would it be acceptable if I were to take screenshots myself in a non-infringing way and put that in instead? NMaia (talk) 15:49, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I think that replacing a copyrighted image with an equivalent noncopyrighted image should be fine. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 16:12, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but if the work is under an open licence, the pictures should be too. Otherwise the authors had no right to publish then in a work under an open licence in the first place, unless they're claiming fair use (which I don't think this is, as it's a "generic" screenshot, not fair use made necessary by lack of alternatives, e.g. a quote from a copyright work). For that example, the image is some sort of CC licence too. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 18:09, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Index:The mystic test book.djvu[edit]

In the process of transcribing, I've implemented a quick {{playing card}} template, ideally what would be the best way to reproduce the exact cards on this work? An Approach to the graphics workshop at Commons? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 16:25, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I think the way you have done it is the best way. Good on you! —Beleg Tâl (talk) 16:32, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Next problem is how to reproduce the layouts. Page:The mystic test book.djvu/155 , Which should ideally I think be a Lua based table generator, I can't write Lua code, so would appreciate someone writing one. :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 16:40, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Removing a file and an index in favor of higher resolution scans[edit]

Hi, will you be able to remove File:A_Statistical_Account_of_Bengal_Vol_1_GoogleBooksID_9WEOAAAAQAAJ.pdf and the associated index at Wikisource for me? I have higher resolution scans that I like to use instead. Thank you. Samiur Rahman 2017 (talk) 22:47, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Upload the new file over the top of the current one, then update the Index: page. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 23:56, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Error in file naming and category[edit]

I just uploaded a file. I named it File:Blackwoodsmagazi46edinuoft.djvu I intended to name it File:Blackwood's Magazine volume 046.djvu to maintain the convention for Blackwood Magazine Volume names. Please instruct me how to remedy this.

Also This media file is uncategorized. I do not know what categories to apply and am unable to find field to compare while reviewing comparable files.Klarm768 (talk) 16:50, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

At the Wikimedia Commons file page (commons:File:Blackwoodsmagazi46edinuoft.djvu), you should have a "Move & Replace" option in the top menu (it may be in the "more" dropdown). You can use that to rename the file.
As for categories, I suggest "Blackwood's Magazine scans" is most important as that is where they can all be seen together. V45 and lower have "DjVu files in English" too. You could add lots of other categories as well like "1839 documents" and so on, but I don't really see the value in overdoing the Commons categories: no-one is realistically going to be finding these files via their categorisation at Commons, except for the Blackwood's category. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 17:07, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Duplicate page removal request[edit]

DjVu pages 444 & 445 are duplicates of pp. 442 & 443 in this text and need to be removed, if anyone is willing. @Mpaa:? Thank you! Londonjackbooks (talk) 20:05, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Can't they just be ignored? It is what I do with such works. Being there, marked as duplicates/blanked shouldn't be an issue. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:57, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Sounds good to me! Londonjackbooks (talk) 15:20, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Avoiding a space between two pages when index is transcluded, but not with a new section.[edit]

I have a problem regarding the page Page:Observations on Certain Documents Contained in No. V & VI of "The History of the United States for the Year 1796," In which the Charge of Speculation Against Alexander Hamilton, Late Secretary of the Treasury, is Fully Refuted.pdf/69. In this particular work, there's no space between em dashes at the end of a sentence and the beginning of the next.

As an example, the end of this sentence is marked by an em dash—And the next sentence comes after the dash without a space.

The problem is that on the page linked above, the page ends with an em dash, meaning that when the index is transcluded, MediaWiki will automatically insert a space.

Which means that when transcluded, the lack of space between the em dash and the sentences will not be represented correctly— Like this.

How can I avoid this, other than by bodging it and grabbing the first word of the next page and inserting it on this one? I know {{nop}} is used for paragraph breaks and when you don't want a space to ruin template syntax, but as far as I understand it, it won't work here. Sincerely, InsaneHacker (💬) 22:36, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

This sounds like a Phabricator issue. Commas and periods are handled properly, but it seems that em-dashes are not. --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:37, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
I assume that's because standard practice is to put a space after commands and periods, so they don't need to do do anything special in the software to accommodate them. Sincerely, InsaneHacker (💬) 22:48, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
No, you misunderstand. That's not the situation I meant at all. I meant situations like the one you describe, where the punctuation following the split word is a comma or period, and there is no space between the word and the following punctuation.
Transclusion currently works across pages so that
hesita- + -tion. yields hesitation. (without intrusive space)
hesita- + -tion, yields hesitation, (without intrusive space)
hesita- + -tion— yields hesitation — (with intrusive space)
So it does not insert a space before a period or comma, but does insert a space before an em-dash. --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
I'd handle it using {{hws}}: {{hws|before—|before—after|hyph=}} / {{hwe|after|before—after}} —Beleg Tâl (talk) 22:58, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
But we shouldn't have to do that. If transclusion worked properly, then that workaround wouldn't be necessary. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:00, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
Transclusion is working properly. Your understanding of the issue does not patch *match the issue in the linked scan. Your example "hesi-" + "tation—" transcludes correctly as "hesitation—", but the situation here is that we want "hesi—" + "tation" to transclude as "hesi—tation". —Beleg Tâl (talk) 23:02, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Now that I've got a hold of you: I've been trying to transclude the Index in my sandbox, but despite the fact that I've copy-pasted the file name directly, it can't find the index. Do you think it's due to the fact that there are quotes in the file name? I tried using {{"}}, but that didn't work either. Sincerely, InsaneHacker (💬) 23:04, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
I find &quot; works in such situations. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 23:18, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
This situation is dealt with by using the {{lps}} and {{lpe}} pair of templates (not the hws/hwe pair). Beeswaxcandle (talk) 23:54, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
There are numbers of ways to achieve this. As said there are a couple of templates that are possible, or you can simply but the "text—" into the footer, and then use <includeonly>text—</includeonly> to start the text on the next page. Neither is wrong. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:04, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
But, as I said before, if transclusion treated the properties of punctuation characters correctly, then we wouldn't need to use a special alternative for this situation. --EncycloPetey (talk) 14:52, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
@Beleg Tâl: No, the situation I describe is not transcluding properly. My intention was not to patch the scan, but to clarify that it doesn't work and under what situations. The behavior of transclusion differs by punctuation, so that em-dashes are not treated correctly for spacing purposes, but periods and commas are treated correctly. I've seen this behavior recently, but can't locate the spot where I saw it happen. When a hyphenated word is split across two pages, and there is an em-dash immediately following the hyphenated word, the following em-dash does not connect with the preceding word. But when the following punctuation is a comma, period, or colon, no space is inserted. The problem is peculiar to the em-dash. I'm sorry if I didn't make this clear enough for you. --EncycloPetey (talk) 14:50, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
@EncycloPetey: sorry, I mistyped; I meant that the behaviour you described does not match the behaviour described by User:InsaneHacker; that they were two separate issues. But regarding the issue you describe, where the mdash follows the hyphenated word: I have tested it in my sandbox, and it works the way I would expect; see User:Beleg Tâl/Sandbox#HWS and mdash. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 16:54, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Then behavior of transclusion must have changed sometime in the past two weeks, or some other glitch was in play, because I know I came across this issue recently and it did not work. I will keep looking to see whether I can locate it again. --EncycloPetey (talk) 18:05, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
It's possible something may have changed. I know that little glitches tend to appear and disappear every so often around here. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 18:25, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Opposite of {{nop}}?[edit]

Is there an opposite of {{nop}}? Something that will force elements together, like {{hws}}, but for whole pages or sections. I ask because I'm making extensive use of the {{iwpage}} template family: for a concrete example of the problem of transcluding "foreign" Wikisource pages, see this page (the ref should be right after the French text, not a few lines after it). Pinging @John Vandenberg, original creator of the hsw template page. NMaia (talk) 22:51, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

We haven't made much use of those templates here because of the problems they create. The template creates a section using CSS coding that would be difficult (or impossible) to override. It's a question of placing content after a container tag, but wanting that content to appear within the container tags. I'm not sure that's even possible. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:01, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
@EncycloPetey: thanks for the prompt reply. If that's the case, how would you have handled a multilingual page like that? Apart from the trailing whitespace, I've had no problems so far. NMaia (talk) 23:25, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Multilingual works are either transcribed locally, or else hosted entirely on the multilingual Wikisource. We don't usually half-host works in that way or transclude works that have been transcribed remotely. --EncycloPetey (talk) 00:14, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
@NMaia: And just in case you weren't aware, that is here: s:mul:. —Justin (koavf)TCM 06:19, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
I was aware of mul, but to me it seems a little unsatisfying to have a text there, away from most target-language reviewers :/ NMaia (talk) 10:06, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
@NMaia: Do you have a better solution? —Justin (koavf)TCM 17:43, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Not for this problem specifically but in general interwiki transclusion has been working well, so I guess I'll stick with that. There could be an issue with Index:Onovoguiadaconve00fons.pdf however, which seems to be entirely bilingual... In that case I suppose mul would be better. NMaia (talk) 19:58, 19 November 2017 (UTC)