User talk:Hesperian/Archive 2

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check

I found this page, again I think, and transcribed two of the articles: The Perth gazette, and independent journal of politics and news/Volume 4/10 January 1851. The scarlet heart-turner was my target, but there is a couple of mentions of Banksia and Dryandra. The stuff about guano was not quite as interesting, but they mention Drummond at the end - a nice bit of cross promotion by the gazette. The year in the note at APNI is wrong, if they are referring to this item. This seems very familiar, pardon if we've been through this before. Cygnis insignis (talk) 18:41, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Strike that, the first mention is 1851, I just found the description. Cygnis insignis (talk) 18:51, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

so if you could check the formatting of this too. Ta, Cygnis insignis (talk) 20:12, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

And nuke the redirect from the wrong title. Cygnis insignis (talk) 20:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Very nice; would you like me to upload a DjVu of page scans so you can proof against them? Hesperian 23:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Please. Then I can see how it is done. Nice bit of analysis on your quote selection. Cygnis insignis (talk) 12:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I've made a note to do it on Monday. Unless some of the pages desperately need cropping, the file I produce won't be any better than if you downloaded the PDF from http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ and used http://any2djvu.djvuzone.org/ to convert it to DjVu. So there's no reason you can't do it yourself if it takes your fancy to do so. Hesperian 13:33, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

(refactored) I got one issue Image:The Perth Gazette and Independent Journal of Politics and News 23 April 1852.djvu. It did need cropping after all, and it needs a better name. I will wait and see what you do, zap my work please. Cygnis insignis (talk) 06:13, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see that it needs cropping. I started out cropping them quite tightly, then decided that the black background is entirely appropriate. It is nice to know that you are seeing the entire page, which I guess is why the NLA have scanned it that way. An example of one that I wish I had cropped is at Image:The Perth Gazette and Western Australian Journal 1(14).djvu. (But having said all that I will crop it for you if you want.)

At the very least I think your title needs a comma before the date. A more important consideration is consistency across the series. If you follow the convention I adopted for 1833, it would be Image:The Perth Gazette and Independent Journal of Politics and News 5(227).djvu. But I've never seen incumbency as a compelling argument for anything: it is never too late to change, if you can convince me that a date convention is better than a volume/issue convention.

Hesperian 06:55, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

If the footer is not a problem, I prefer it uncropped too. I followed the NLA in creating a date title, but I can think of no reason to change the convention. I suppose the typesetter may be less likely to get the date wrong. I will reupload under the existing naming convention, if all else is well. My browsers don't like this format, it made it difficult to check it. Is the file size okay?Cygnis insignis (talk) 13:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC) Sorry about this mess. I understand it a little better. 18:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh bugger; I forgot about that footer. It does need to be cropped. :-( Hesperian 23:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I've cropped it. Please remind me if there were other dates that you wanted uploaded. Hesperian 04:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

indexes

With regard to Journal and proceedings/Volume 2/Part 19, I would lean towards us keeping it provided we dont include the text of the articles. i.e. it isnt a violation to create a TOC. It would be silly for Weird Tales to omit to mention the works that were copyrighted. I recently created an index for a definitely-all-copyright journal volume, and we briefly discussed in on IRC. Time for a discussion on WS:S ? (I'll try to recall the one I created recently.) John Vandenberg ^(chat) 02:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• Okay, I've restored it. "Definitely-all-copyright" isn't quite right — for all I know, Stephens and Cusack both died before 1946. The problem isn't that I know they didn't, but rather than I don't know they did. Hesperian 04:10, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Ah, then that is even more reason for us to have an index here, with Author: pages or redlinks to Author: pages, in the hope that someone comes along and helps us prove it is PD or not. btw, my naughty little foray into lists of copyright works is Scrutiny: A Quarterly Review, and Author:James Thurber/Articles is probably just as naughty. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 10:07, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

And in regards to Index:Relations Between Settlers and Aborigines in Western Australia.djvu, I think Yann has set up the transcription system on Wikilivres, which is hosted in Canada. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 02:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• I think I'll pass — I already waste enough time on Wikimedia without getting involved in yet another site. ;-) Hesperian 04:10, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Yann's wiki is an semi-approved extension of Wikisource, taking advantage of the different jurisdiction; like Project Gutenberg has a sister project in Canada, Australia and Europe (not sure which country). John Vandenberg ^(chat) 10:07, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
    • I copied the file there: wikilivres:Image:Relations Between Settlers and Aborigines in Western Australia.djvu. Yann (talk) 10:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

page number off by .4em

Hi, I've been looking at your withdrawn question (I still got a new messages notice). The page number is off by .4em because the newlines you've added to the template are causing the arg, the page number, to get wrapped by paragraph tags and it gets margins from the ambient styling (.4em 0 .5em 0). Without the newlines, MediaWiki does not know to generate the paragraphs; in your other examples, it generates paragraphs around some of the text, but not all. You might hard code the p-elements you want, or remove the newlines in the template arg. —Jack Merridew 11:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

more; in your reverted post, I see a bunch of

• <div align="float:right">

that should have been

• <div style="float:right">

It seems to me that this may have been why you weren't seeing what you were expecting and withdrew the post. —Jack Merridew 11:50, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into it. The "align=" problem was just a momentary brain explosion; my problem is there regardless. What I don't get is (a) why the paragraph tags add 0.4 in the float blocks but not in the inline blocks; and (b) more to the point, what I can do about it. I am also starting to second-guess my philosophical conviction that this kind of layout should be done with divs not tables.

---

left right

center

---

Hesperian 12:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

---

left

right

center

---

Above, I pasted the generated code and added style="margin: 0;" to the paragraph elements. This aligns things; it's not a fix, but it show that it's the margins being different. What I'm seeing is that what the margins are relative to is different and I expect it's a case of the margins collapsing differently;

• http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/box.html#collapsing-margins

I'm also seeing the height of the center-div as being less than that of the other two. And I looked at {{float left}} and note that if you look at that page — not the source, just the rendered page in the template space — you'll see the same offset due to the newlines; I looked back at the version sans-newlines and it looks right. Not a solution, but I hope it helps.

Hold fast to your first instinct re tables. —Jack Merridew 15:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

---

left

right

center

---

Another go; this time no tweaks to the p-margins, but I added overflow:auto; to the center-div; see bullets 2 & 3 at the w3 link; the margins are not collapsing on the floated divs, but are on the center-div; the overflow setting caused the center-div to not collapse either per bullet 3. I'm seeing other ways the collapse can be avoided, too. —Jack Merridew 15:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't much like the overflow:auto option, because it will give me a scrollbar if I shrink my viewport.

What if I wrap the whole line in a parent div with a pixel of top padding?

---

left right

center

---

Man, it sucks that you can't just set "collapse:no". And it sucks that I can't templatify this.

Hesperian 04:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that for the goal you're looking to achieve here, you'd probably be best-off using a higher concept template such as 'masthead' that took three named params and took exact control of the margins and padding. I certainly wouldn't suggest using that overflow hack in the general purpose center template; the point of the above examples was just to sort what was occurring. The padding of 1px on another div, which is serving to separate the two margins, could be part of a new template. I suggest named params because folks might well have different views on what implicit order might be best. You could also add inboard-margins to the floated elements keep large strings from bumping into each other.

As background to the earlier discussion on John's page where I was suggesting some margins, I should add that the margins I typically use on floated divs match the margins typically in effect on nearby paragraphs and this serves to make things layout nicely. I'm note sure if I've ever run into this exact situation before; typically I center stuff using margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; rather than text-align: center; and in a situation like this. I would apply the l/r margin of auto to the p-element, not a containing div (which would be omitted). —Jack Merridew 11:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense. Something like

<div style="padding:1px">{{#if:{{{left|}}}|
<div style="float:left">
{{{left}}}
</div>}}{{#if:{{{right|}}}|
<div style="float:right">
{{{right}}}
</div>}}{{#if:{{{center|{{{centre|}}}}}}
<div style="text-align:center">
{{{center|centre}}}
</div>}}
<div style="clear:both"></div>
</div>

ought to do it (typed without testing, so probably buggy, but you get the idea); or would you implement it differently?

If it seems that I am ignoring your comments on margins, it is only because I don't really understand the implications. I have no objection to you doing as you think best in any of the templates we've been discussing.

"Masthead" isn't a good name, though. It is both inaccurate (because the term has a very specific meaning in publishing, and this ain't it) and too focussed on a single use case. We need a generic name that will allow me to use it in headers, footers, mastheads, and wherever else I need it. For example, to my mind, such a template, if it existed, should be used to render the alternating headers at Page:Transactions of the Linnean Society of London, Volume 10.djvu/38, Page:Transactions of the Linnean Society of London, Volume 10.djvu/39, etc, with a parameter omitted each time.

Hesperian 13:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I haven't tried it out, but that's about what I was thinking; I am wondering at the two spellings; center/centre… :)

All I meant re inboard margins was that float:right above would become float:right;margin-left:1em; so that if the text passed in were large, the chunks would not touch each other; try passing 50 words for each field. Other side, too, of course.

Ya, I can see something like this being used for footers and even in the middle of some pages, so masthead would not be best. Try creating it at some test name to get it working and throw it out for comments at ws:s; someone will offer a good name; {{left-center-right}}? (l-r-c would be leaking an implementation detail.) —Jack Merridew 14:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: big inputs, I already have a reasonable test case at the top of various issues of The Perth gazette and Western Australian journal:

---

His Honour the Lieutenant Governor has thought proper
in the Perth Gazette and Western Australian Journal, signed
communications made to those persons to whom they may
BY COMMAND OF HIS HONOUR THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR. to direct, that all public communications, which may appear
with any Official Signature, are to be considered as Official
relate.
PETER BROWN, COLONIAL SECRETARY

NEW SERIES

---

which, by the way, opens another can of worms, because I can't figure out how to flow the text across the two floats so that a screen reader will read it right, and a Google spider would crawl it right. As currently laid out, a screen reader would read it as

His Honour the Lieutenant Governor has thought proper in the Perth Gazette and Western Australian Journal, signed communications made to those persons to whom they may by command of His Honour the Lieutenant Governor to direct, that all public communications, which may appear with any Official Signature, are to be considered as Official relate. Peter Broun, Colonial Secretary. New Series.

Ugh. But that is, perhaps, a discussion for another day, or at least another section ;-) Goodnight. Hesperian 14:37, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Ugh, indeed. Try 50 words in the center field, too. At first glance, I was wondering where the widths were coming from and then I saw that the text is split into two chunks and has hard-breaks in it. Given all this, I would expect screen readers to present it as you say; the original really looked like above? Guess they really should have implemented float:center;. Another idea; set the widths of the fields, say 20%, 60%, 20%. G'night, Jack Merridew 14:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yep; pretty much; e.g. Page:The Perth Gazette and Western Australian Journal 1(14).djvu/1. Hesperian 23:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

(re: float:center) :-D How many times have you had to address that one on css noticeboards? Hesperian 23:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe there is any good way to mimic a true float:center; — i.e. something that would truly flow variable text around a block in the center. For a fixed-text such as that Journal, chopping the text into bits as the original typesetter did is about your only option; and for a screen reader you would have to duplicate the text as a whole paragraph (preceded by the heading) and use the display property to show/hide the different bits depending on the media. I've done this for printing on occasion; it's a far-from ideal technique. Wiki-editors stick float:center; on user pages rather frequently; I've never seen it work yet. ;) FYI, my user page is built with floats, not tables. —Jack Merridew 06:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I implemented {{left-center-right}}, and it was almost instantly pointed out that it was a dup of {{RunningHeader}}. I won't quibble over the name, nor the camel case, but—you guessed it—it was implemented with a table, and with anonymous parameters. I've updated. Hesperian 11:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Cool; that's a core beauty to templates; you've cleaned-up a lot of pages you never edited. On id:wp, I redid a large suite of navigation templates — many hundreds — and the new versions are used on better than 10,000 pages. re CamelCase; I'm long a fan of it for variable names, bit here, mostly not. If you want to flop the float-center name with the redirect sans-hyphen, it would be best to do so before things gets too far along. More on that, below. Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Diary of ten years eventful life of an early settler in western Australia; and also A descriptive vocabulary of the language of the aborigines

Are you aware of this, and if not, is it of any interest to you? Moondyne (talk) 14:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I went looking for that only a week ago; why didn't I find it?! Um, yes, I am very interested in that one. I even put it on my to do list only nine days ago.[1] Hesperian 14:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Journal and proceedings

I was looking into our categories for periodicals of various sorts when I ran into this one. It drew my attention because of the generic nature of the title. Can you please review the history of the title? My copy of the 3rd edition of the Union list of Serials under the (not yet Royal) "Western Australian historical society" shows the title Early days: journal and proceedings as having begun with a new series in 1938, with a change of title at an unspecified time. Since my list is from 1965, the change must have been before 1970. The Society's own listings refer to the publication starting in 1927, but there is an online entry at the Library of Congress suggesting that it began in 1901.

I don't want to get into the correct form of the title at this time when there is no immediate need for disambiguation of the generic name, though I have found that the same title was also used by the Royal Society of Western Australia between 1914 and 1924, and again by the Australian Jewish historical society beginning in 1939, and more than 20 others. Comments? Eclecticology (talk) 00:32, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Clearly the generic title was always going to be a problem. We can disambiguate it.

It was surprisingly difficult to find reliable information on the change of title, as the RWAHS has since reissued the older issues under the new name, and this has muddied the waters. It seems you have indisputable evidence that I am wrong. I will review. Hesperian 01:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It may be that the only way to resolve the problem would be to look at originals of the publication. Eclecticology (talk) 04:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

A selection of which I possess. Will check tonight. Hesperian 05:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It is all as clear as mud:

Volume(Issue)	Cover	Title page	Masthead preceeding first article
1 (all issues)	unsure; mine is a later facsimile without the cover	"Journal and Proceedings"	"Journal and Proceedings"
2 (all issues)
5(3) (1957)	"Early Days: Being Journal and Proceedings of the Western Australian Historical Society"	two title pages: the first "Early Days", the second "Journal and Proceedings"
5(7) (1961)		"Journal and Proceedings"
7(5) (1973)	"Early Days Journal"	"Early Days: Journal of the Royal Western Australian Historical Society"	Early Days Journal
8(2)	"Early Days: Journal of the Royal Western Australian Historical Society"
8(3)
8(4) (1980)	"Early Days Journal"

What I take from this is that the decision to rename happened back in the '50s, but translating that decision into typesetter's reality took two decades: for a long time after the cover was changed, and in some cases an additional cover page added, the main cover page and masthead remained as "Journal and Proceedings", perhaps because making the necessary typesetting change would have incurred some expense.

I suspect that it will be impossible to pin down an exact year when the change was made. Given this, and the fact that the original title is so generic, I think a merge would be in order. Do you agree with that?

Hesperian 12:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I have a 1977 facsimile edition which includes October 1938-1948 editions volumes, all of which incorporate what appear to be copies of the original covers title pages and saying "Early Days ... Journal and Proceedings ... etc." The series is labelled "New Series Volume I" onwards (to Volume X). Moondyne (talk) 14:33, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Ta. Hesperian 22:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I am assuming you mean "what appear to be copies of the original title pages", as opposed to copies of the actual cardboard covers? Hesperian 23:03, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Bugger; for an historical society they sure are big on revisionism, aren't they? here they have shoehorned those volumes of a new series into parts of volume 3. Hesperian 23:06, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Pardon the staccato posts. 1938–1948 is eleven years; can you let me know which year missed out on a volume? Hesperian 23:06, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Never mind; I forgot to ensure my brain was in gear before engaging my typing fingers. It is all there in the link above.

Between my Volume 2 facsimile and your Volume 3 facsimile, I think it is confirmed that they started a "New Series" under a new name in 1938. In accordance with that I have updated Journal and proceedings and Early days, and created Early days/Volume 3. Hesperian 23:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

That seems like a reasonable assumption. I confirm that it was title pages I was talking about, but its strange, I don't recall it mentioning the words "Volume 3" anywhere, which makes me wonder if they assigned that moniker after they'd printed the facsimile. I'll recheck tonight. Moondyne (talk) 00:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

My bad, it does say Vol3. Moondyne (talk) 12:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

float:center;

Please go slow with this; there are limits to the usefulness of the technique, at least for now. See my talk page and the link to John's. Cheers, Jack Merridew 10:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Roger that. Hesperian 10:52, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I took another stab at this; details on John's page. I'm still wondering if an approach involving a few style sheet rules might be better. That route would be more focused on extending the poem pseudo-tag. Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The padding you removed was not what was likely causing the line-wrap; it was the screen resolution you're using which is probably about 1024 wide. See my note on John's page; it's the max-width:50%; I added to deal with the horizontal scrollbar that is pinching stuff narrow and causing line-wrapping. Cheers, Jack Merridew 06:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Ten Years

Twice you removed a hard <br> or equivalent code from Page:Diary of ten years.djvu/8, after the "To" and before "Western Australia.". Care to explain? I don't particularly care but am curious. Moondyne (talk) 02:33, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Since the first line spans the entire width of the page in the original, I interpret that break as a line wrap rather than a hard carriage return. We don't preserve line wrapping in left-aligned text e.g. Page:The climate of Western Australia, from meteorological observations made during the years 1876-1899.djvu/35, so I don't see why we would do so in centre-aligned text. Page:Diary of ten years.djvu/5 is probably a more stimulating example for this discussion. Hesperian 03:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I actually removed a hard line break only once. The first time, I merged two paragraphs ;-). Hesperian 03:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I said or equivalent code. Was there any such thing as a line wrap in 1844? If I was the typesetter I'd have forced "Western Australia" onto its own line, just like he did. Moondyne (talk) 05:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Treating those two lines as a wrapped paragraph is arguably correct. Treating those two lines as a paragraph with a hard break in it is arguably correct. Treating those two lines as two distinct paragraphs is just plain wrong. This is why I don't considered my first edit to be "equivalent code" to removing a hard break / was unaware that I was up to two reverts. ;-)

If I was the typesetter I'd have forced "Western Australia" onto its own line, just like he did. Would you? That surprises me (if I leave aside the fact that you wouldn't have had a choice). I shall consider myself outvoted, and restore the break.

Hesperian 06:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Treating those two lines as two distinct paragraphs is just plain wrong, true,. That was done because I wasn't savvy enough to think about using a br, but the net effect to the reader would have been almost identical anyway, eh? You don't have to reply - like I said, I don't really care and its your document do what you think is right. Moondyne (talk) 06:35, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, no, let's not say its mine; let it be ours. I don't much care either. I am often guilty of reverting edits on the assumption that little to no thought has gone into them; sadly, the assumption is usually justified, but it's obviously not in this case, so I guess I owe you an apology, which I would give you if we weren't both so desperate for this ludicrously trivial discussion to draw to an end. :-) Hesperian 11:52, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

:-) Moondyne (talk) 13:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

bad hand sockpuppets

You may not know my history: w:en:User:Jack Merridew — but worry, not; Jack doesn't do sockies anymore and will remove yon boxes soon enough. And a certain template will get sorted-out. Cheers, Jack Merridew 12:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I was completely unaware; my apologies for a joke in bad taste. The intention was to suggest that the task at hand was the kind of dirty job that has to be done, yet no-one wants the taint of having done it. Hesperian 12:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry about it in the least. If you'd like the poem back to using a table, feel free to ask, and I'll do the deed, as I can easily test on a less live page; that said, I don't think it's really hurting anything for the moment — the work doesn't have a presentation layer for folks to read, so it's only editors seeing it. Also, there are links to the page as an 'issue' and reverting would inhibit wider review. I'm busy with other things, including getting a bit related to the 'icky boxes' reset. Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

No rush. I'll get back to you when the other 585 pages are validated and the presentation layer is at FTC. ;-) Hesperian 22:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank-you spam

Thank you for supporting me for adminship. :) I'll try to make you glad you did it. So here's a belated Nadezhda "Harry S. Truman" Durova campaign song. All the best, Durova (talk) 05:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

• 

span with style display:block; float:left/right;

• ws:s#Template:Dropinitial-span

The technique I'm using here may be of more general use. I expect some of the other templates we've discussed could benefit from this approach. The core issue is that MediaWiki knows to not wrap a div with a paragraph, but by using a span, we can avoid it breaking what should be one paragraph in to a div followed by a paragraph. Cheers, Jack Merridew 05:29, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Very good. I can think of heaps of situations where that extra linespace has shat me; I will bear this in mind for next time. Hesperian 22:16, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Recent deletions

Thanks for responding to those deletion requests. Can you delete the talkpages of the associated pages as well? The only things on them were my tags with notation info as to source/date of the documents, etc. Cirt (talk) 11:44, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome; done; goodnight and Merry Christmas. Hesperian 13:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, and to you as well! Cirt (talk) 21:24, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

What options do you use on DJVU

G'day Hesp. I am taking JPG files through Any2DjVu, and then trying to extract the text through djvutxt.exe, however, it is not coming along nicely ... too many weird characters are coming through, which makes me think that I am not using the right options. Do you run any special options / tweaks to get your text to come through neatly? Thx. billinghurst (talk) 06:20, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Gutenberg texts

Greetings! Do you know whether there a template available for marking works for which the text relies on the Gutenberg copies? A search in the main namespace and Template namespace turned up nothing. --EncycloPetey (talk) 04:04, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I do have the Scriptorium on my watchlist, but posted first to you, since I knew your name and saw that you had just made an edit here. Wiktionary also has properly functioning discussion boards--four of them, to be precise--so I understand entirely what you mean. Thanks for replying to my question. --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:01, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

djvu volume

I created the djvu and began changing the existing pages in Vol 58 of Curtis's. I also started the index and created Curtis's Botanical Magazine/Volume LVIII/3118. It is currently a bit of a mess, can I get a comment on these sometime? Cygnis insignis (talk) 08:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Which Bauer is the question, consider this and this. Cygnis insignis (talk) 11:19, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that is saying that (Ferdinand) Bauer figured the plant during Flinders' voyage, not that (F.) Bauer is the author of this plate. The author of this plate is in fact William Jackson Hooker ("W.J.H. del.") Hesperian 13:08, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

(ec), very probably, Ferdinands drawings were used for many later delineations, but Franz drew the Microtis which arose from the sod attached to King's specimen. I will get around to transcribing that volume (62), in the hope of finding more Bauer works. There was enough ambiguity for me to shy from choosing which.

The pages that refer to 3118 3119 are in 62, pages 16 and 17 ..., which I have just noticed is misspelled! Do I have push that lump around cyberspace again? 19:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Very helpful edits, thanks. Comment was a bad choice of words, its a wiki. Any possibility of extracting the OCR? Cygnis insignis (talk) 13:19, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Images can't be renamed. You'll have to re-upload it under the correct title, and I'll then delete the old one. If you've created a wikisource index or any pages, then they'll have to be moved too.

Wilco.

Hesperian 02:28, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Reuploadified. pls delete he old one. ta Cygnis insignis (talk) 04:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Gone. I tried to upload the embedded OCR in the 58 djvu, and there doesn't seem to be any: Page:Curtis's Botanical Magazine volume 58.djvu/4. Did you ask any2djvu to OCR it? I'm trying to OCR it now. Hesperian 04:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

The OCR failed; I don't think I can help you. :-( (I can only semi-automatically upload OCR if it is embedded in the djvu file.) Hesperian 04:43, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I did ask for OCR, but was happy to get anything back. It seemed a bit problematic, it took several attempts, the site mentions that it can only do english. The BDLib site has a hit and miss attempt, at least on other volumes, is it possible to extract what they have? And is it possible to get the converting site to obtain the pdf, instead of me pulling and pushing it twice? It has a dialog to foil machines, and sometimes me. Cygnis insignis (talk) 11:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

For a while I was using mget to download full resolution page images in bulk. I was foiled too, and still am. I don't think there's any way to avoid pulling and pushing. I'll have a poke around to see if their text can be got easily, but I doubt it. Hesperian 13:23, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

BTW, your index marks Page:Diary_of_ten_years.djvu/16 with a dash, meaning blank(?), but it has content. JTLYK, Cygnis insignis (talk) 13:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Initially I used dashes for pages that have no explicit page number. Later on it became obvious that in most cases the page numbers could be safely inferred, and I stopped doing that. During the transition I was horribly inconsistent. Hesperian 13:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Show by doing ey? ;-) Thanks for the moves, sorry about the naming. I never settled on the best fit, perhaps Curtis's Botanical Magazine/Volume 58/3118 Cephalotus follicularis (or drop the name and 'volume'), but I think I will go with whatever you reckon (whatever that is). Cygnis insignis (talk) 14:44, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh shit I promised I wasn't going to do these cheeky moves anymore! It's a hard habit to break. :-( Tis a good thing you have no objection. Hesperian 22:30, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

As an aside: I tried some linking at The Botanical Magazine/Volume 2 page, which required creating the linked page To a Lady, with some painted Flowers, that required a link to Virgil at 'la:'. All of this wants checking, if you feel inclined, I checked the poem against three online sources. I suppose I should add them somewhere. I copied the versus tags at targets you did recently, but I'm not keen on the resulting effect on the numbering scheme. My current scheme is to link the preceding line tag (increments of 5) and call that close enough. What do ya reckon? Cygnis insignis (talk) 10:38, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Sounds okay. Or you could use <span id="56"> to add an anchor without adding a line number. Hesperian 13:59, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

A puzzle: loc. cit. ref (#44) of this section. It also mentions something called a Banksia, if that piques your interest. Cygnis insignis (talk) 12:29, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Unless the answer is Page:Charles von Hügel (1903).djvu/83, then I am confused. What is the nature of this puzzle?

huegeli is a nomen nudum published by Sweet in Flora Australasica, which I promise to transcribe here before I die. I have no idea what rubra is.

Hesperian 13:26, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I plonked it at the Reumont paragraph as a total guess. There is no corresponding '2' in the text for that footnote. It might also be Fullerton's text that Anatole is referring us to. I also need solutions for the arrangement of page and note links, and the missing pages :( I will complete the conversion before getting your opinion. Cygnis insignis (talk) 15:19, 29 March 2009 (UTC) P. S. Banksia rubra is a name given to Rosa banksiae (a cultivar of?), I suspect that AVH may have stuffed up the translation. I don't expect Wiesner would have made that error. Cygnis insignis (talk) 15:37, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The sourced material is certainly a direct quote from that page... but that would make this is terrible misuse of loc. cit. There's not much we can do; we're not mind-readers, and we can't very well ask. Hesperian 00:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I apologise for forgetting to upload the page scans for that; I have done the few remaining for you. Hesperian 00:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Cheers for that, even more so for the validations. Cygnis insignis (talk) 17:50, 30 March 2009 (UTC) TB

I'll check the index every now and then, and green anything yellow. Hesperian 00:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Curtis's Botanical Magazine/Volume 73/4275: publication date to bottom - done. Mother of all footnotes - done. Overflowing table - gave up! Cygnis insignis (talk) 06:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The Book of the Secrets of Enoch undeleted

Hi Hesperian, as new user JoshuaSlanders (talk • contribs) is already having a bit of a rough start with some other texts, I have quickly undeleted "Bible (Wikisource)/2 Enoch" without consulting you as it appears to be a public domain text, and the uploaded text appears to be unaltered, based on a quick comparison against the sacred-texts edition. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 14:41, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

No worries mate. The jizz was wrong, so I didn't look into it very thoroughly . I'm always happy for you to fix my screw-ups. Hesperian 23:28, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Max Havelaar no header

Trying to understand what to make of Max Havelaar is it a disambig page, or just something that has slipped through the works? Thx. -- billinghurst (talk) 14:31, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

It is a disambiguation page. I don't remember why I didn't put a header on it. Maybe disambiguation headers didn't exist yet, or maybe I didn't know to use one. See also Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2008-04#Question. Hesperian 02:00, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Good-o. Converted to a disambig, you may wish to review. -- billinghurst (talk) 08:26, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Transactions of the Linnean Society of London, Volume 10 Part 1.djvu/222 no header

Gday again. Not sure what to do with it, as it is the first djvu (page) file that I have seen in main namespace, especially without parent pages. Your guidance would be appreciated. -- billinghurst (talk) 10:38, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

My bad. I originally uploaded this document as a collection of jpegs, then later as dvju, so I had to move the page transcriptions. I must have forgotten to include the Page: namespace in the target when I moved this page. Then, to compound the problem, twelve days later I notice this page missing at the target, and so (re) created it. This page is therefore a dup. Deleted. Hesperian 11:59, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

P.S. thanks for the cleanup. Hesperian 11:59, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

float templates

Hi. Did you see these [2] [3] from yesterday? They allow these templates' code to be generated inside things like paragraph elements, which improves the vertical spacing. Before I changed this, the page numbers drifted down a bit on usages like this. When implemented with a div, MediaWiki knows to not generate the code inside a paragraph, which is inherently invalid code. A span with display:block; achieves the same effect wo/using a specifically-block element, so MediaWiki generates the code inside the paragraphs. This is what I was doing w/{{Dropinitial-span}} — which should get folded into the regular {{Dropinitial}} and the -span variant redirected (and instances visited by a bot).

The pages numbers are still throwing the centered title off a bit; they really should be done with absolute positioning.

Cheers, Jack Merridew 09:33, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Yep, it came up on my watchlist, though I can't say I fully appreciated the point of it. This is good stuff. Are you going to do {{running header}} as well? Hesperian 11:57, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Sure; just did it; it seems the same issue. Revert or let me know if you see any issues with it. Cheers, Jack Merridew 14:34, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Original page numbers

Hi Hesperian; I saw on Jack Merridew's talk page that you have some experience with original page numbers in later editions of works. I just ran across this issue for the first time, so I was hoping that you'd be able to take a look at what I've done and tell me what you think. An example is Page:Nature and Character of our Federal Government.djvu/12, at the top. Any guidance on this would be appreciated! --Spangineer^wp (háblame) 21:30, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah well... I just we'll just have to make do for now. What would you think about using a template for this (even a null template) so that if a better solution for (2) is ever implemented it'd be easy to fix all the instances at once? --Spangineer^wp (háblame) 02:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

What about using a variant of {{sidenotes begin}}? See, for example, Page:United States Statutes at Large Volume 1 - Congress 3-5.djvu/238. There's obviously too much white space (the text body is fixed width, and that would have to change), but it seems like a possibility. --Spangineer^wp (háblame) 02:52, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It being your template, care to comment ...

At Chekhov's disambiguations is a little discussion about use of {{translations}}. There is a query about a Russian work with two English names, thought you might like to read and comment. -- billinghurst (talk) 15:57, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Template:Translations

Hello. Can you add a optional parameters for a original title and a link to a original text? My try like The Bishop seems ill... -- Sergey kudryavtsev (talk) 10:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi Sergey. The way you are using this template is not how I had anticipated—I would have put the template at Архиерей, in the expectation that different translations would have different titles. I am not saying this use is wrong; just that I am surprised. I will see what I can do. Hesperian 11:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Do you like these changes? Please suggest how it could be further improved. Hesperian 11:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, i like it. Thank you. -- Sergey kudryavtsev (talk) 12:07, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I set this parameter for a Checkhov's works. -- Sergey kudryavtsev (talk) 12:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I see. I am glad to see this is getting used. Hesperian 12:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

One thing that I have yet to see, though expect to see is where we will need to disambiguate different works and different translations. With the use of | original = is that it labels the page with the foreign language name, which won't be the case if we get another book of the same name in either English or another language. -- billinghurst (talk) 13:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I think in that case we would either use a standard disambiguation template, or use both together.

For example, suppose someone transcribes The bishop: extracts from the correspondence of Arthur Selden Lloyd (1936). Then The Bishop might become a disambiguation page that points to the above and to a translation page at The Bishop (Checkhov). In that case, the PAGENAME of the disambiguation page will be incorrect, and the translations template will indeed need updating. Hesperian 23:22, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

You made me realise that having "original" as an optional parameter is not going to work. When "original" is omitted, I've been treating PAGENAME as the original a la Analyse du fruit; but when "original" is provided, I've assumed that the PAGENAME is the translated title, a la The Bishop. This isn't going to work when we have multiple translations of multiple foreign works with the same title. Suppose there were multiple foreign works titled "Analyse du fruit", so that the translations page for Richard's work had to be at Analyse du fruit (Richard). You either omit the "original" parameter and get Analyse du fruit (Richard) as the title, which sucks; or you provide the "original", in which case you end up with the PAGENAME as the translated title, giving you the title Analyse du fruit (Analyse du fruit (Richard)), which sucks even more.

Thinking this through out loud...

PAGENAME	Desired header	How to and considerations
Foreign	Foreign	translated parameter must be optional for this to be possible. If translated is omitted and original=Foreign, this must be the result. One would also expect this outcome if original is optional and omitted. This implies that the PAGENAME should be treated as the original title if original is omitted.
Foreign	English	This doesn't make sense. Translation pages should always identify the original title.
Foreign	Foreign (English)	If both parameters are provided, this must be the result. One would also expect this outcome if original is optional and omitted, and translated=English. This implies that the PAGENAME should be treated as the original title if original is omitted.
Foreign (Author)	Foreign	The only way to achieve this is to set original=Foreign and omit the translated parameter. This implies that translated must be optional. Also, if original is set, we cannot assume that the PAGENAME is the translated title.
Foreign (Author)	English	This doesn't make sense. Translation pages should always identify the original title.
Foreign (Author)	Foreign (English)	The only way to achieve this is by setting both parameters.
English	Foreign	This doesn't make sense. If the English title shouldn't be in the header, then certainly shouldn't be the PAGENAME
English	English	This doesn't make sense. Translation pages should always identify the original title.
English	Foreign (English)	This must be the outcome if both parameters are provided. One might also expect this to be the result of setting original=Foreign and omitting translated, but this is impossible because of the "Foreign (Author) —> Foreign" case.
English (Author)	Foreign	This doesn't make sense. If the English title shouldn't be in the header, then certainly shouldn't be the PAGENAME
English (Author)	English	This doesn't make sense. Translation pages should always identify the original title.
English (Author)	Foreign (English)	The only way to achieve this is by setting both parameters.

Conclusions:

1. Translation pages should always identify the original title. Therefore either the original parameter must be mandatory, or the omission of the original parameter must be taken to imply that the original title is the PAGENAME.
2. Translation pages should only identify the translated title if the original title is always translated the same way, which is often not the case. Therefore the translated parameter must be optional, and its omission should not be taken to mean anything at all.

Hesperian 01:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Spurious link Diary of ten years eventful life of an early settler in Western Australia and also A descriptive vocabulary of the language of the aborigines/The colony (8)

Gday. There is a link to Yagan on the above page. I am not sure where it is meant to be pointing, whether it is to an author page or not. -- billinghurst (talk) 15:59, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Cygnis insignis (talk) 22:07, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

My thanks to both of you. Hesperian 00:00, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of which, a passing reference. Cygnis insignis (talk) 14:58, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

and curiouser

Because I'm helpful and sexy like that, I even proofread two of them. Sherurcij ^{Collaboration of the Week: Author:Carl Jung.} 06:09, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Success with Template:Multicol

With List of Carthusians, 1800–1879 and the associated Page: namespace, I have plenty of success with {{multicol}}, {{multicol-break}} and {{multicol-end}}. It was a little nuisance to work out the section imports, however, it has worked fine. -- billinghurst (talk) 12:15, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks; I know how to do it with tables—for complexity, your list of Carthusians has nothing on Page:The Western Mail - Christmas 1897 - Page 3.jpg—but I was hoping for a CSS solution. Have given up, used a table, and moved on. Hesperian 12:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll get to it; I've just been too busy with off-wiki-life. I've had only half an eye on these projects for a week. Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

OT

I am presuming that beating the Dockers is acceptable. with relief billinghurst (talk) 13:50, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes indeed. :-) Hesperian 05:47, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if useful

A little while ago, I stole and mainstreamed Pathoschild's {{SIC}} so it can do things like eommenced (← hover) which could be useful for some works. <shrug> -- billinghurst (talk) 07:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Ta mate. Hesperian 11:03, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

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