User talk:Dictioneer

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Hello, Dictioneer, and welcome to Wikisource! Thank you for joining the project. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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Again, welcome! Beeswaxcandle (talk) 06:02, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Page:Creole Sketches.djvu/9[edit]

Hi. If you link to Page ns, it will not work once transcluded in Main Namespace, as from the Main Ns the link will bring you back to the page ns and not to the chapter page in the Main ns). You might want to look at Page:Stories_by_Foreign_Authors_(French_I).djvu/10 for some ideas and templates used to manage the different namespaces. It is just an example, there are many possible ways of doing that, but it might be useful to understand what I meant.--Mpaa (talk) 10:40, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I think I understand your instructions and have implemented them on the first TOC page: Page:Creole Sketches.djvu/9 ... if you could take a look at it and let me know if I'm on the right track, I'll go ahead and modify the rest of the TOC if so. Thanks, Dictioneer (talk) 17:06, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
Looks OK, but to see if it really works, you need to try to transclude in Main ns. At that point, you will be able to see if the links point where they should.--Mpaa (talk) 19:07, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
Don't forget the part about where I've never done this before... I'll look up how to move this to the main namespace, but I assumed all the pages had to be validated first. If you have suggestions about what my next step is, feel free, otherwise I'll visit the community well tomorrow. In either case, thanks for all the help so far, Dictioneer (talk) 21:55, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
Proofread is enough. If you'll need assistance, continue this thread. It is in my watchlist.--Mpaa (talk) 14:43, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
After a couple misfires I think I have implemented the format you recommend, at least for the first page of the TOC. I would be grateful if you could visit Creole_Sketches, take a look at the entries on the initial TOC page and let me know if I'm on the right track. If so, I'll go ahead and implement the changes on the rest of the TOC pages and incorporate them into the mainspace page. Also, I inadvertently created several pages in mainspace with the .djvu suffix. If you have the authority to delete them and tidy up the small mess I made, the pages are: Creole_Sketches.djvu , Creole_Sketches.djvu/Introduction#Introduction, and Creole_Sketches.djvu/The_Glamour_of_New_Orleans. Thanks, Dictioneer (talk) 15:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Looks good :-) --Mpaa (talk) 16:26, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
All right, I think I'm "done," whatever that may mean. Before I start working on the next collection of Hearn's short pieces, is there anything else I need to do here? I simply want to make sure I understand the entire process before I start importing and correcting another djvu text. If not, thanks so much for your help and your patience in steering me through this process! Dictioneer (talk) 22:39, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Looks very good. I fixed this: Page:Creole_Sketches.djvu/169, I am not sure it is the only instance though. One note regrding mdash with spaces, you might want to look at {{}}. In general,spaces around — are not reproduced, but it is not a rule.--Mpaa (talk) 06:54, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Page:Fantastics and other Fancies.djvu/104[edit]

Hi. I think you should use {{}} for emdashes if you want to retain spaces. It will also ensure consistency throughout a work. If someone ill occasionally validate your work, he might remove the spaces. If you you the template, your choice will be explicit. Bye--Mpaa (talk) 21:05, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. In this case, however, the scanner's OCR (Cornell University's, in this case, though I don't know what program they used) has converted the emdashes from the source text. I was manually inserting emdashes in Creole Sketches because they were almost entirely missing from the text. Should I follow your advice in this text and use {{}}for any emdashes I end up inserting (I think there's been 2 or 3 so far) or should I stay consistent with the machine-translated version ? Thanks, Dictioneer (talk) 23:41, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
From my experience, if you choose to have spaces, you should use the template. The main purpose is to keep the spaces around the emdash, which I understand is your choice for the current work. If you just type the "—", a validator might remove the spaces before and after it (which is also legitimate as there is no explicit rule). In general, I do not use it but I always strip the spaces. I can assist in script assisted replacement, if you chose to use the template.--Mpaa (talk) 06:51, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Ok, I believe I've finished all the work I can do on this text. I have again mistakenly created two pages that I hope you can delete: Fantastics_and_other_Fancies/MetempsychosisThe_Undying_One and (both finger failure in the prev/next links that resulted in their being created before I caught the error). Also, if there is a relatively straightforward way to change the source in order to keep the space before and after the emdash as you mention above, I would appreciate your assistance on that as well. If not, I can live with it, but I'd rather get it as close to right as possible. More important than that, there are a couple of places in the book where there are 3 or 4 emdashes with no space in between, as in "My dear M. D———, ..." — if there is a way to achieve that effect, please let me know. Thanks again, Dictioneer (talk) 21:49, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
What about {{bar}}: —— -> ——?--Mpaa (talk) 21:31, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
I removed all instances of — with {{}}, plus some other clean up. Hope it is OK for you.--Mpaa (talk) 22:46, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
It looks great, thanks. I see that you used a bot and (presumably) some sort of scripting language to effect the change. There is a good deal of rote work in cleaning up the plaintext import from the djvu file, so I have been working on a python script that would automate some of the tedium by cleaning up the djvu file before it's imported from commons. Is there the equivalent of the wikipedia sandbox I can set up, both to test the individual .djvu text pages, and to make sure it works when transcluded into the main space? I don't mind making a big mess if you don't mind cleaning it up, :) but I assume there is some sort of facility to help with this. If there's a better place to go with a technical question like this (I'm also curious about the underlying format of the wikisource file, since it might be faster to convert the djvu file directly to that instead of importing it), just point me there, and thanks again for all the help you've provided. Dictioneer (talk) 14:41, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Southern Historical Society[edit]

1.2 Southern Historical Society, volume 35 and others

(copied from AdamBMorgan's page)

Hi, I am considering doing some work on the Southern Historical Society papers, which look like they last had significant work done on them a couple of years ago. I see they are still on your user page, so you seemed like a good person to check with. I am interested in improving the formatting a bit, and especially in un-hyphenating, both across adjacent lines and across adjacent pages. These seem like improvements to me, but I've learned on wp that one person's improvement can be another person's step backwards. Also, if you know of someone else I should check with instead, please let me know. Thanks in advance, Dictioneer (talk) 02:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Dictioneer, please wait a short while so I can contact another person who has done a lot of work on the Southern Historical Society Papers. He has made all finished volumes look consistent. I need to know where he left off, I too have worked a lot on those volumes. Too, it has not been two years since they were last worked on. They are being worked on in a consistent manner up to about volume 8 as I recall. Kind regards, —Maury (talk) 20:20, 23 April 2015 (UTC)(talk) 19:25, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Dictioneer, feel free to work on volumes 10-end of the Southern Historical Society Papers. I started that project and others also help including AdamBMorgan who set up the SHSP project. It is on listed my page as well. Kind regards, —Maury (talk) 20:20, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Hi Maury, no problem on waiting a little while (or a longer while, for that matter :), and sorry about my misstating the time lag: I see now that some of the volumes have been worked on much more recently. I had simply looked at Vol. 35, saw Adam had worked on it in 2012, saw the project listed on his user page, so started with him. I certainly don't want to mess up any of the work that's already been done. I might add that, having looked at the early volumes, I am impressed, especially by the table of contents sections, an area which I find very challenging. Anyhow, feel free to reply either here or on my talk page, whichever you prefer, and we'll continue discussing. Thanks for your assistance, Dictioneer (talk) 20:35, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
When we first started several people started at the same time. The result was that people worked the pages differently which is only natural. So, one person decided to re-do what had been done and in an excellent manner. Therefore he has re-done what needed to be re-done which comes up to about chapter 8. My concern is that someone else, like yourself, might re-do volumes 1-8 again. That is why there is a time lag other than most people don't get even one volume done. It is a task beyond them. Kindest regards, —Maury (talk) 20:46, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
That all makes sense. If you have a moment, let me tell you a bit more about my planned participation. Starting with, say, volume 35, which was the one that got me interested, I would work on formatting the text of individual pages to a suitable standard: eliminate unnecessary line breaks, remove hyphenation, add 'nop' at the bottom of pages where necessary, etc. In order to do so, I would run a script on the existing djvu file to make such changes, upload the changed file, populate the pages one-by-one, and proofread. I'm happy to automate the process further, I just lack experience on what's available on the project (for all I know, there's already a robo-script to unhyphenate words and I simply don't know about it). Anyhow my goal is to match the (high) standard of the project as well as do it the "wiki" way. Any advice welcome and thanks for the speedy response, Dictioneer (talk) 20:58, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Go for it. All pages not already done cannot be harmed and volumes 35+ have not been done except, perhaps, except a few pages I may have done while first starting when I wanted every volume to have something done. I made many mistakes when I started. Exactly what interests you the most in the SHSP? Are you an American Southerner? Kindest regards, —Maury (talk) 05:57, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
To answer your last question first: no, but I married one! I actually asked what that 'CSA' on some of the family gravestones stood for, and was thoroughly enlightened. ;-) Anyhow, my interest is in making multi-volume collections reliably searchable, since that is how I tend to access them, and hyphenation is the Achilles heel of searchability, especially across pages. WikiSource is a good place to store such texts, and we're celebrating the 150th anniversary of the end of the Civil War, so why not make available to the world one of the major documents that kept on fighting it for another 50 years? :) I got to V. 35 because of the Longstreet debate, a riveting example of how facts and perceptions evolve over time. I expect it'll be a few more days before things are working well enough for me to attempt an upload of v. 35, so I'll leave a message on your talk page (or here if you prefer) when I'm ready for someone to review the results of my experiment. Thanks for the help and especially the good will. Dictioneer (talk) 16:15, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Dictioneer: Volume 35 looks very good. Still there is the hand-eye work to format the pages properly. Too, I need for you to mark your pages as proofread (yellow) so that I can review each one and mark the same page green (validated) or I can edit the pages and you can validate. All headers have to be done by hand which is easy. You do excellent work. Kindest regards and congratulations for your profession work. —Maury (talk) 06:06, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Dictioneer, do you plan to do anymore on SHSP v.35 or any other SHSP volume? I don't know what you are doing or plan to do. —Maury (talk) 16:00, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for the compliment: given the quality of the first 8 volumes I consider that high praise indeed! I was planning on doing at least Volumes 35, 36, and 37, using them to tweak my script a bit further. It certainly is more fun to work with somebody on the proofreading/validation, so if you have other volumes that are a priority for you, I’d be happy to work on those instead (or as well). If I understand the format you are using for the page headers, I think I can tweak it so that those are pre-filled with the appropriate wikisource tags, requiring only a quick cut-and-paste after generating the text. Would Adam be the person to ask about the robot that was previously used to auto-populate the individual pages? I am still having trouble getting the OCR button to appear reliably, so pre-loading the pages would greatly increase my productivity. I should mention that this is a spare-time activity for me, but I would nonetheless hope that we could get several volumes formatted correctly over the course of May, especially if we can find a way to automate populating a range of pages. Let me know if any of this needs clarification, and I look forward to progressing on this project with you and any other interested parties. Dictioneer (talk) 14:56, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I have no preferences as to which volumes are done first but I would think keeping them in order would be best 35, 36, 37 to end. Then go back to volume 9 and work up to volume 35 which, I believe, would cover all of the volumes online thus far. I have mentioned and mention again due to the importance and that is somehow mark the volumes as proofread (yellow) so I will know what I need to do. Okay? I thank you for the work you have done and plan to do.

    Yes, Adam would be the person to ask but these days, unlike the past, AdamBMorgan is away quite often due to real life duties. Kindest regards, —Maury (talk) 06:39, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

A few comments on the various discussions in this thread.

What the OCR button does is throw away any text-layer that is present in the file and try to re-derive a new text from the image. When you've already got a good text-layer this is not desirable.

There are three ways of semi-automating headers. The first is to set them on the Index page (see Index:Tom Swift and His Airship.djvu for an example of one of mine). Unfortunately, this only works at the time of page creation and can't be applied retrospectively. It also is exactly the same on both left and right pages. The second way is to set them up in your common.js file and then apply them with a keyboard shortcut. To do this you'll need to fish through my common.js and pull out the bits needed and put them in yours. Unfortunately my javascript is not good enough to tell you exactly which bits you need. I got User:Pathoschild to help me with this. This method allows for left and right pages to have different styles. The times it doesn't work very well is when every page header has different text based on the page's content. On this sort of work, I set up the formatting to happen automatically and then just drop the actual text into the right field. The third way is more esoteric, but if the page header text is pre-formatted and then wrapped in noinclude tags at the beginning of the page-text. Then the cleanup script that Maury and I use (based on one that Hesperian and Billinghurst developed) will automagically move the page header into the header box on the Page (the same works with anything at the end of the page-text going into the footer box). I suspect this third method might suit this particular project quite well. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 08:54, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Beeswax, thanks for the info, especially about the OCR button, it explains a lot (I’d assumed it was simply a reset button that emitted the text underlying the image). I have tried to implement the third option mentioned but would appreciate you inspecting page Page:Southern Historical Society Papers volume 35.djvu/33, to see if I understood correctly. If so, I plan to implement a couple more formatting tags (center in-text titles, other formatting where appropriate, following the standard Maury set in Vols. 1-8). Any suggestions for improvement welcome. Dictioneer (talk) 14:02, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
(Responding here to keep conversation together in one place.) Yep, that's what I meant. With respect to other formatting that would be helpful to the proofreader: as you say, centering the in-text titles would be good; the other thing I notice on this particular page is the space before the semi-colon in the second paragraph. Removing spaces before punctuation in your pre-processing would be good. I'll back-off from this now and let the two of you get on with improving the value of our collection of works but {{ping}} me if there's something you'd like my involvement in. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 18:37, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
P.S. @William Maury Morris II:, with this change all you will need to do to move the page header up into the right box is to use the clean-up script (alt-shift-x) and it will move at the same time as all the other little tweaks that that script does for you now. No more copying and pasting or mouse-dragging! Beeswaxcandle (talk) 18:42, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Dictioneer, most of what you and Beeswaxcandle are conversing about is over my head. Therefore, I am going to stay away from it. You two do as needed. But hear this, the pages marked proofread actually need to be edited properly before they can be validated. No work is considered complete until this has been done. You also still need to go back before volume 35 and work up to volume 35. I will be watching on standby to assist when the work is done. Lastly, Beeswaxcandle is very professional in what he does. He is an administrator that knows what to do or where to find out what to do. Kindest regards, —Maury (talk) 12:15, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
Maury, I think both you and Beeswaxcandle may not realize my level of inexperience in things Wiki. (Some of what he said is over my head too, but I enjoy learning new technical things.) I apologize for not responding directly to your friendly prompts about proofreading, please let me clarify now. I understand that proofreading is a manual process and that every page needs to be reviewed. However, I am not very fast on the keyboard, so saving 15-45 seconds per page through automating line breaks, hyphenation, and running headers is very worthwhile for me, especially on a multi-thousand page project like this one. (Also, I enjoy script-writing and learning about DJVU and all the technical stuff.)
So, my plan for the next week is to shake out the bugs in my script (and the administrative process for requesting a reload of a volume without wiping out pages already validated), automate what I can while doing no harm to the existing text, and load and reload on Vols. 35 and 36 a couple of times (hopefully not overtaxing the patience of the WS administrators). Along the way, I would love to have your feedback, as you are clearly a careful editor with a better eye for detail and layout than me. But, I also don't want to overtax your patience (so far, I have the sense I've taxed it a little, but not too much).
I suggest I go through the revision cycle (both technical and administrative) and contact you when I've got the text to a point where you could profitably review it and give me further suggestions. Once that's complete, we can then get on with the project of actually proofreading and validating the texts, and I am more than happy to follow your lead to develop a methodology we can enjoy (e.g., I populate/proof, you validate and catch any errors I’ve let creep in, switching roles now and then to stay fresh). I hope this clears things up, and I look forward to working with you. Dictioneer (talk) 17:03, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
Okay, that is basically what I prefer anyhow. I have seen several people work on the SHSP volumes with big ideas but they all fizzled out and quit, It is difficult to go the distance. I know from having done the volumes in the 1990s where I got all text placed on a searchable CD and added a personal message at the beginning of that CD. So, I am going over it all again instead of working on books I prefer and have never seen. That is my only drawback -- tired of the same material after producing searchable CDs and mass selling them. I knew to get them out to the world for free that they needed to be done here on Wikisource. I used to have websites with entire volumes to promote these volumes of men and their deeds -- to "bring them back to life" again. The South had very little material on that war while the North had 100 volumes. All of this ties into several ancestors of mine who started and maintained the Southern Historical Societies Papers. Major General Dabney Herndon Maury started it all and remained with it for 20 years. He was a Virginian as am I. Kind regards, —Maury (talk) 02:58, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Dictioneer, if ever you wish to send me a personal note feel free to do so but use my offline account but leave a "headsup" note on my talk page on wikisource. I rarely use that personal account or look into it. It was created for working here only. —Maury (talk) 05:15, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Maury, I’m afraid I don’t know how to send an e-mail message from wikiSource. If you e-mail me at dictioneer @ secretURL.*** I can reply and we can go from there. I’m also happy to keep our conversations here, though. I noticed references to the name Maury in Vol. 35 and wondered if they were ancestors. You probably saw Maj Gen Dabney Herndon Maury who started the SHSociety and worked 20 years on it before being appointed to South AmericaLBNL, I would like to assure you that I’m in this for the duration, but actions speak louder than words, so I hope that in a month such assurances will prove unnecessary. I’ve got a message in to Beeswax to see if I understood his technical info, and I’ll let you know when I’ve got that right (along with the bot procedure) and am ready to proceed with your review. Best wishes, Dictioneer (talk)
On your left margin under "Tools" you should see "Email this user". But no matter, I will follow what you have suggested. Conversations here get archived and sometimes people want privacy between them. So, we have that privacy as an option. It also keeps any personal information out of sight from the wicked & bots that collect people's names and placing them on mailing lists. There are vandals that attack wikisource and people here delete their profanities and useless statements, name-calling, etc. The world can see your email above and flood your mailbox or send a virus. Wikisource cannot protect us from everything so that's why many people (like yourself) use aliases.

Yes, Maury is my ancestors as is Fontaine, Minor and many others. We all have them. My longest family tree goes back to 1500 France. They were French Protestants (Huguenots) who left France due to religious persecutions -- God loving with several ministers who fled Catholic massacres of protestants after the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes (see wikipedia). I thank you for this feedback. I don't worry about your work because at least somebody is here working on the Southern Historical Society "Papers". Everything you do is that more done for unknown generations that will come to the SHSP after we are dust or ashes. In time, I am convinced from experience, that what we do on Wikisource will be refined to a far better format and probably placed on some sort of advanced offline terabyte drives or whatever will come in the future. Images here may even become Holograms that speak and are better than virtual reality that exists now. Technology moves fast. Respectfully, —Maury (talk) 16:47, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

See, I learned something new! (If a little obvious… this can be a case in point WRT my general inexperience, though I like to think I possess some technical expertise.) Thanks for reminding me about the email address: I’ve made a suitable change, hopefully before the page is cached by a wicked bot. I mainly use it for things wiki-related, but am no fan of spam at any email account. Thanks again, Dictioneer (talk) 17:35, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

    • Thoughts from my past one of the things I have wanted to do years ago was to illustrate the Southern Historical Society "Papers". Start with a few in each volume and slowly increase the number of illustrations. They could but also may not be limited to just photos of the participants. Then when one reads of Colonel Sew Sow, there beside the text, or hovered above on mouse over? is his image. How unique it would be since the SHSP volumes are not illustrated except for one of Lee on recall. Then this could be placed on DVD for sale to cover costs and more. The DVDs would be silk-screened (Hologram?) and there would be a excellent search engine for all volumes. Such a search engine already exists on the SHSP-CD I previously worked on. We see mostly names and a lot of initials, so who was this person. These few ideas stated would help in learning. Too, in time the volumes would have audio where one can just listen -- good for a long driving trip - listen and learn American History from a human voice like the books on and elsewhere. —Maury (talk) 12:12, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Interesting idea, I think the most straightforward way to implement it would be to create a cross-link to the corresponding wikipedia entry, either for the author or for the name of someone mentioned in SHSP. For example, I had to search WP for Do-the-Boys Hall and Mark Tapley (both are Dickens references), it would be much better to have a link or hover-over instead. In addition, it would provide motivation for improving those articles, getting suitable images uploaded to commons and placing them in the article, etc. Also, I believe that it's permitted to distribute Wikipedia (or a relevant subset) on DVD.
At the moment, though, I need an admin to help with my bot request or give me a workaround. I am optimistic on getting something going soon, and I'll keep you posted when I make some progress. Dictioneer (talk) 18:27, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

/* Confederate Veteran 40 volumes on Wikisource*/[edit]

Dictioneer, if the SHSP volumes are ever completed here are a few other volumes where the bot and script may help. An example of what I did by hand is shown below. Please let me know if you think it would assist on these volumes. Most are plain text. —Maury (talk) 09:42, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

/* Southern Historical Society Papers vol. 35 */[edit]

Dictioneer, names you find in the SHSP volumes such as JOSHUA C. FLETCHER. need to be changed to Joshua C. Fletcher. and then use {{sc|... to get Joshua C. Fletcher. which gives you what the book shows. Cheers, —Maury (talk) 04:35, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, as you may see, I caught it in a couple places, but missed it in most. I believe I've been through all the pages and have validated the ones you proofread, so I think what remains is validation of the pages I've proofread and perhaps some TOC and Index work. I've made a list of deficiencies and am going back to my script to see how many of them I can correct. It may be a day or two before I'm back on the air, but I hope we'll be able to proceed to v. 36 by the end of the week. In the meantime, let me know if there's anything I've missed or anything else I should do on v. 35. Dictioneer (talk) 17:45, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
You work in an excellent manner. One of the most common little things I see is ist instead of 1st. Perhaps you can adjust your script for that? —Maury (talk) 14:36, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, I think I can incorporate the change, I also noticed nth instead of 11th. It's a little tricky because ist is also a valid suffix, but I think the script will be able to distinguish the two (it's one of the advantages of using the underlying djvu file instead of just the plain text: more information is available so the script can be coded to make better choices. Let me know if you spot any others and I'll add them to the list. Dictioneer (talk) 02:32, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Are you familiar with the term transclusion? Do you know how it is done? Every book, every volume, needs to be transcluded. Many people transclude a work, book or volumes, long before any of those texts are validated. Too, many will transclude and leave the works unvalidated figuring someone else will validate at some point and do not concern themselves with validating. Some figure the newest people here will validate but I also think some don't care about validating at all. —Maury (talk) 22:29, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
I have used transclusion on the first texts I edited when I started on the project (you can see references to them near the top of this page, but I wouldn't say I was familiar, more like "know enough to be dangerous." If I understand you correctly, this is what's been done for the SHSP project, so that there's a page for each volume, including v35: Southern_Historical_Society_Papers/Volume_35. What you say about validation matches what Mpaa told me when I was working on my first volume. I prefer to have the pages validated for transclusion to the final volume, but it requires a second participant, which can be hard to find if the text or author is obscure enough.
Note: I'm working on the bot script that Mpaa pointed me at, so it may be an additional few days before I get v. 36 on the air. I think it's worth the extra time and effort, though, since I can then upload corrected pages without having to request help from an admin. The format is a little obscure so it may take me a little while to get the hang of it. If you get to the end of v. 35 and are champing at the bit, let me know, and we can process v. 36 the same way we did 35. All things being equal, though, I hope you're OK to wait, I think it'll be worth it in terms of efficiency. Dictioneer (talk) 02:32, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
I won't be chomping at any bit. I am for the most part working on other books long (years) before you arrived. It is better to take time and square away the script for accuracy and fewer edits. —Maury (talk) 15:29, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Please do not use "indent". My concern is that "indent" will be found throughout your script for shsp v.36. I copied this from administrator AdamBMorgan long ago. e.g. below:

{{right|{{sc|John T. Parham,}}}}
{{right|Late Ensign 32nd Virginia Infantry.}}

Thanks, good catch. I've adjusted the script accordingly, so there shouldn't be any indents in v. 36. I'm having a little trouble getting the pages aligned on v. 36 (the wiki index page doesn't quite line up with the djvu file pages), but I hope to have it on the air today or tomorrow. Dictioneer (talk) 15:18, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Okay re: above. Please check all yellow pages in Vol.35 and correct or validate them so that volume will be completely validated. Several were done by me before you arrived and need validation. I cannot validate what I proofread. Thank you, —Maury (talk) 16:30, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Pages 78 and 155 still need your validation to be completely validated. We are doing well thus far. —Maury (talk) 19:51, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Is there some reason as to why you will not validate these two pages? I have asked in private and above in here and I get no reply, no deed nor any hint of any kind.

—Maury (talk) 21:30, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

/* Southern Historical Society Papers v.36 */[edit]

Please remember to use the sc to make the small capital letters. Those you miss I will get.

Jefferson Davis.

—Maury (talk) 20:10, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I think I've been catching most of them, but small caps is a tough one, so I'm sure there's room for further improvement. If you give me a couple of pages where this happened, I'll see if there's something systematic that I'm missing. I'm hopeful that overall the quality has improved noticeably over v. 35, but of course let me know of any and all problems you encounter. For v. 37, I am optimistic that I can catch most of the right-justified titles and signatures. Dictioneer (talk) 02:10, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
I thought you could incorporate it into your script? Whatever you do not see that you do by hand I will probably spot it and correct it. Not to worry. I am going to go eat my late lunch now and watch T V for awhile. I have been working on a project with one of my sons for totally blind people using Internet with IPads &c. We include Wikisource books. Your work is wonderful. Thank you for it, you are a very good person to help others. There is no greater deed than helping people. —Maury (talk) 17:28, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
You are very kind, Maury, but I'm the one being helped by you (along with Beeswax and Mpaa, of course, on the technical side). Having someone to review and critique who cares about the quality of the resulting text helps keep me focussed and avoid procrastinating. I would like to get v. 36 and 37 on the air, and then we should assess how to proceed (I would love to have your help to get the whole series up and running, but I don't intend to take you away from projects that you may find a higher priority). I realize that you have other projects that you are working on and appreciate the time you are taking to assist me. My goal is to get my proofreading time per page (after script upload) under a minute: if I do that, I'm good to proceed on the series, even if it takes a while (which it will :-). Think about how you'd like this to go forward and think about whether there is anyone who, if the text were clean enough that the proofing/validation could go that quickly, would be interested in (re-)joining the project. I haven't ignored your previous note, BTW, I am considering if I am good with proceeding with the text knowing that it may stay at Proofread (not Validated) for the indefinite future (I think so, but need time to be sure). Anyhow, thanks for the encouragement and I wish you and the son all the best on your iPad project. Dictioneer (talk) 00:04, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Use of "block center" vs "center" aka {{c

"Without good company all dainties
Lost their true relish, and, like painted grapes,
Are only seen, not tasted."

Thanks for the formatting info, as you might guess I didn't know about block center, I will experiment with adding it to the script, as it would be a big time-saver. If I understand correctly the 'poem' tag eliminates the need for adding the break < b r > tag. Let me know if that's not correct, Dictioneer (talk) 04:15, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Is there some reason as to why you will not validate these two pages? I have asked in private and above in here and I get no reply, no deed nor any hint of any kind.

—Maury (talk) 23:26, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for missing them, no reason except I dropped a stitch somewhere. They should now be good to go, let me know if there's anything else I should do on v. 35 (transclusion, TOC, etc.). Dictioneer (talk) 04:15, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
No problem, thank you for polishing it off. Since you ask (above) yes, vol.35 needs to have the TOC completed and any links that may be involved. It definitely needs to be transcluded. People will not read the pages one by one- typically they don't know how that works as do we who have the book completed. In fact, we cannot declare the book complete if not transcluded and too few of the SHSP volumes are transcluded. Your work on volumes like v.36 are fine as is because anyone can finish them since you have done the task of proofing them (making the squares yellow) if nothing else, even if no script was used-as long as they are yellow. I can over time work all of those out as long as they are colored yellow. In all of this for the many lives that once existed their story will be told because of you once completed. People seeking long lost ancestry will find them in these volumes and again, because of you once the volumes are transcluded. The volumes need not be all validated before transclusion. Typically people do not have every page validated before they transclude but they do proofread initially then transclude and place the volume in the New Books area to be validated by everyone here on wikisource. With all due respect to you for your work, I am, and the world is, in debt to you and your wonderful work, —Maury (talk) 10:28, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

/* Southern Historical Society Papers v.37 */[edit]

Dictioneer, please do not leave a blank line on the pages located at the very top when proofreading if you can avoid it. It may be in your SHSP script. If you are trying to create a space between the title and text just add
in the header under Southern Historical Society Papers. This will create a space before any page text or image. Also, please add (see our previous volumes in 35 and 36 for examples of references /> or smallrefs}} to the bottom of pages as needed.
Kind regards, —Maury (talk) 04:00, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
You are correct, I introduced the problem via a script change, along with some stray double-spacing where hyphenations were re-joined. I am running a script to correct these problems, so if you miss one here or there it should fix it. Also, I'm only saving the page if the problem is actually encountered, so I shouldn't be stepping on any of your edits. Thanks for catching this, it's an annoying little problem. Dictioneer (talk) 15:21, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Dictioneer, you sure are good with scripts! I haven't any idea as to how to create them. You must be younger than me, or work with scrips, or are in school. We used a slide rule in physics and chemistry classes as calculators did not exist. I was born in 1947 (it has been a wild life! inc military)I finally settled here as wounded and old dust from the "real world" for peace of mind under various names since about 6+ years before I was told about "sock puppets"! I used aliases and had no knowledge of the term sock puppet. "Keep on trucking" and "never quit" y Muchas Gracias mi Amigo, —Maury (talk) 18:37, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, thanks, and it's nice of you to refrain from pointing out that I forgot to add references to the footer. I will get that in after v.37 is complete, which I hope will be tomorrow but may not be until Friday, we'll see. Dictioneer is my unified id across all the wikis, so what you see is all there is! It appears that I will have to apply for a bot account (or create one and get the bot flag, I haven't yet gone through the procedure Mpaa gave me). Any and all suggestions for a bot-name is welcome, I'm leaning toward Auctioneer or Actioneer if they aren't already taken. Techwise you're doing pretty well for '47 and it would have been some significant effort to create searchable CDs back in the nineties, so don't sell yourself short. I'm not as old as you, but I also believe that learning new things keeps one young (in brain at least). Dictioneer (talk) 01:58, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I pointed out the footer situation in the text above. wink I did not point it out to the rest of the world if that is what you refer to. Suggestion for a bot name = richbot or being specific to the SHSP volumes then shspbot so people can see examples if they desire it. It would also help promote "shsp". People will seek out the origin of a bot or at least I do. Mpaas has a bot with Mpaabot on vague recall. s/he is always a great helper and is a very smart and kind person. Nope, I don't sell myself short, I have achieved too much in life for that sort of thing. I am a self-taught typist and a self-taught many other things. I learned to type on my own when I first typed out Major General Dabney Herndon Maury's book, "Recollections of a Virginian in the Indian, Mexican, and Civil Wars. His daughter hounded him into that book. It is in that book (on internet) that he hints of family deeds and mentions the origins of the Southern Historical Society (v.18) history that you and I are working on now. I have used my real and full name for many years aside from any aliases. I also use only my real and full name here now. One of the reasons I am here other than I love what I do is that it is a sorrowful thing that any person works a lifetime and carries his knowledge to the grave with him. I also like to bring back old and forgotten books of history and science from dusty or moldy storage areas -- bringing books and the people that lived history and/or science they wrote of back to life in modern times and as best as I can. I would like to have all of these in human speech format, and will if I live long enough. Too, since I use my real name, I have also "made my mark" in many places throughout my life in this world. Some people care not of such things but others do. —Maury (talk) 02:32, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Missing Footers again in v.37 Please adjust your script. eg below:

—Maury (talk) 15:56, 5 June 2015 (UTC)


One example of several:


—Maury (talk) 03:28, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I've added it to my list. Like small caps, though, this may be tricky to distinguish from the places where they use *'s inline as a sort of ellipsis.Dictioneer (talk) 03:31, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
The SHSP volumes use this a lot. It may be a few or many - it varies.

One example of several:


—Maury (talk) 03:51, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

V. 37 proofreading complete?[edit]

@William Maury Morris II: (this is my first attempt at ping, it seemed better to keep the topics all on one talk page). I believe I've completed proofreading v. 37: the two pages left are page 1 (which you tagged) and p. 60 (which has an image and no text, and for which I am unfamiliar with how to format). I've got a list of your suggestions, including the '* * *' template, and will work on those over the weekend, hopefully ready to resume Monday or Tuesday. You should think about which volume(s) we should proceed to next. I'm happy to proceed to 38, or to return to the early volumes, it's all the same to me. Thanks for your help and feedback and hopefully SHSPbot will get the bot flag by the time I'm ready to resume. Have a good weekend, and if I've missed anything big, please let me know. Dictioneer (talk) 16:39, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Pings are worthless to me as I don't have the sound on and I use no pinging device. All pages look good in volume 37 that I have seen other than minor edits to validate. However, I have seen several missing footers which a script should insert. Still a footer is not needed at all and takes up bandwidth. We use footers when they are needed. Volumes like the SHSP often need footers and the footnotes are often numerous. Therefore, the footers included is best for these particular volumes. Better than is
which I was told and don't remember why. I myself these days, as opposed to years ago, would use only
. Your script is excellent and you are very fast at proof reading. I can see where you have edited a page more than once. You should slow down a bit - nobody is going to catch up to you and your script much less you and your SHSPbot. I am totally for the inclusion of the SHSPbot. I have been with these volumes and various excellent workers and the SHSP volumes have only moved slow until all workers left including me. It was too much of a task. Volumes 1-8 were all re-worked by a fellow that thought he would finish the volumes. He did an excellent job at the tasks he set before himself with a full belief in he could do all of these, at least before he died. He isn't dead, he just paused for a long time even though his work was excellent. He wanted all things to look identical, almost as if one person did everything, but after his re-working volumes, I think he just burned out. Let us continue in a straight line and go onward with v.38 or if that isn't what you really want then start elsewhere but a straight-on forward is my preference. I find things less confusing in that form. I thank you for the both of us working together, your good manners, and your wonderful SHSP Script. I have seen other scripts used elsewhere and I know their power. I know how to handle images so don't worry over any of them. I have worked and perfected images for many years now. I regret the SHSP volumes are not illustrated so that I could work with images but I am aware of what to do in the future. For now I sometimes add links to Wikipedia on names and/or people because that is all that is allowed here -- make our work look like the pages in the volumes. We are saving old books and the images we use prove to people that we did not change the original volumes. Have a great weekend. I will still be here where it is peaceful. Respectfully, (not William Maury Morris II that was an accident although accurate) but "Maury" which I have always gone by. A full real name is too impersonal and I am a people person. Otherwise it is as though we all are like robots. Respectfully, Maury

[ —Maury (talk) 19:55, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Please adjust script to include references in the footer. Most are missing but I am adding them. I think all volumes should have a small group of pages done as a script test" before adding in all other pages of any volume. —Maury (talk) 02:54, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Agreed, I'll run 10-15 pages, proofread, and if they look good start running other batches. If you catch something important I can always revert and re-run, not a big deal. BTW, I've been meaning to mention that the name of your ancestor Matthew Maury sounded familiar: he's mentioned in an Economist article from several years ago about "Big Data" as one of the pioneers in the field. He collected log books from ship captains, recorded and analyzed all of the log data about wind, weather, currents, etc., and used them to build improved maps of shipping lanes. Every captain who participated got an updated map. Clever! A copy of the report is at and his name pops up at the top of p. 7, I think. Dictioneer (talk) 00:38, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

You probably saw a book or two, or articles here on WikiSource Author:Matthew Fontaine Maury or the article on Wikipedia M F Maury He had become an "unknown" and I spent several years changing that. Think you for the article but there is a lot to MFM than what anything on Internet covers. Besides, everyone probably has successful ancestry. I was handed a lot of mine in old books and genealogical charts and conversations with my elders -- aside from what I have sought and found. He is my main person in family history that I like. He had a good imagination and loved to study everything. He was a strong believer in God. He combined God and Science. Most of those old ship's logs did not provide the kind of information but some did. All of them had to be looked through. He was also the Superintendent of the National Observatory which was also called the United States Navy Observatory. One of the things I find interesting is the man was just a Lieutenant for many years and yet was Internationally famous and was awarded many medals. Still, no increase in rank by the USN. Too, as a mere lieutenant he did not have to put so much time and effort into the several ideas he thought of but instead he threw himself into them and thought of more ideas to work on. He died of "exhaustion" from promoting Weather Forecasts on Land since he had already become famous for this on the high seas. There is a lot of information on Internet about him now but not when I started many years ago. On vague recall, he wrote the 1st article in vol.1 of the shsp volumes which was done after that war. I firmly believe everyone has good (and bad) ancestry but not everyone spends many years seeking it out. Virginians often know their ancestry from following the ways of our mother country (England) Anyhow, I am off to work in the salt mines again. —Maury (talk) 02:22, 8 June 2015 (UTC)



"By the struggling moonbeam's misty light,
Our lanterns dimly burning.' "

Please use this to align poems &c when needed in any SHSP volume. You have been doing it correctly except you use only c for center and that does not align text if the text is supposed to be left justifies and centered. —Maury (talk) 02:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

/* Notes, proof reading, validating */[edit]

SHSP v.36

Yes check.svg Done

Okay, I think v. 36 is ready to go. I'm hitting a couple of problems on v. 38 but will keep plugging away. Also, I'll be out of town for the next few days, so my access will be intermittent. I'll be working on the project when I can, though. Best wishes, Dictioneer (talk) 13:03, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Volume 36 is now completely validated. If vol.38 is causing you problems, skip it and go to another volume. Any volume can always be done totally by hand. Cheers! —Maury (talk) 22:11, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Vol 37 completed, now what? Are you going to return?

—Maury (talk) 08:50, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi Maury, my apologies for my absence and, more importantly, not letting you know what was up. Real-life has intervened: my trip lasted longer than I expected and I've had a couple of doctor's appointments regarding an injured wrist in the past couple of days (nothing too serious, but a splint for the next month). I would like to think I'm close to a breakthrough on v. 38 but of course you only know about breakthroughs after they've happened. I will be back on the project, but it may be a few more days while I get the hang of typing while encumbered. Sorry for the delay, I remain committed to the project, and to paraphrase MacArthur, I shall return. Best wishes and thanks for your patience, Dictioneer (talk) 16:08, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

":::No problem there are a lot of other volumes and books that can be worked on. Take your time and heal properly. —Maury (talk) 03:59, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Dictioneer, you have joined up with the "Gray Ghost"(Mosby) of the Confederacy. When are you going to come home? Your hand must be healed by now so come and heal your soul. "They" await. Kindest regards, —Maury (talk) 22:39, 11 July 2015 (UTC)


—Maury (talk) 03:33, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


Dictioneer, look at page 22 of vol.38 Note the difference in spacing when always using of dhr above and below the rule line. I think it looks better because words don't become crowded. I think too that the rule line length should always be about 3em as 5em looks too long. These are just my thoughts so do as you prefer. Kindest regards, —Maury (talk) 23:08, 15 August 2015 (UTC)


SHSP to do[edit]

a) SHSP 38 p.114 + aprox.15 other yellow (proofread) pages by me need to be Validated (mark green) by you by hand and that vol. will be finished except map image that I will try to do.

Dictioneer, thank you for the final kill on p.114 moments ago. Also I have done the image of the map and will insert it after all pages are done in SHSP 38. Respectfully,—Maury (talk) 21:53, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

As noted below, I've validated v. 40 -- I'll take a run at the rest of v. 38 this weekend. Have a good holiday! Dictioneer (talk) 02:53, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

b) SHSP 40 all proofread (yellow) by me but you need to do the validations (green) and that will then too will be complete. —Maury (talk) 20:39, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I believe I have done all I can do on v. 40 -- finger / mouse failure leaves a handful of pages for you to re-validate (apparently, I clicked "this page has no text" a couple of times, and although I undid that error, it leaves the page in proofread status, requiring someone else to validate it).Dictioneer (talk) 02:53, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Dictioneer, please validate or re-do the few yellow (proofread) pages in Volume 38. They are pages I did a long time ago. We can, as long as we want to, finish up all of the SHSP volumes, just as long as we have what it takes. Don't worry about V.40, they will be done, one way or another. Kindest regards, —Maury (talk) 01:54, 25 September 2015 (UTC)