User talk:Pigsonthewing

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Hello, Pigsonthewing, and welcome to Wikisource! Thank you for joining the project. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Carl Spitzweg 021-detail.jpg

You may be interested in participating in

Add the code {{active projects}}, {{PotM}} or {{CotW}} to your page for current wikisource projects.

You can put a brief description of your interests on your user page and contributions to another Wikimedia project, such as Wikipedia and Commons.

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I hope you enjoy contributing to Wikisource, the library that is free for everyone to use! In discussions, please "sign" your comments using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your IP address (or username if you're logged in) and the date. If you need help, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question here (click edit) and place {{helpme}} before your question.

Again, welcome! — billinghurst sDrewth 10:42, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

FWIW we are allowed to choose our own version of the template. — billinghurst sDrewth 10:42, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

What would be useful is for someone to meld {{Botanist}} and {{Bot auth}} — billinghurst sDrewth 10:48, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Illegible text[edit]

Hi, Pigsonthewing --

I saw you recently worked on Page:Description and Use of a New Celestial Planisphere.pdf/38 and used [??] to indicate illegible characters. I'm not sure if you're aware, but we have a template {{illegible}} which serves the same purpose, and also automatically sorts the problematic page into a special tracking category of pages with illegible text. It shows up like this: (illegible text).

Just a heads up about the template if you were not aware. --Mukkakukaku (talk) 19:40, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Template:nop for terminating a paragraph at the end of a page[edit]

When we transclude pages they are joined with a "space". So when a paragraph terminates at the end of a Page: ns page, we need to stick a {{nop}} (div coded) on a new line after the paragraph to make it force a paragraph when transcluded. There is a gadget that allows one to put a "nop", on the preceding page, which is useful for when you get to any next page and see that you should have poked a "nop". Hope that helps. — billinghurst sDrewth 06:01, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

@Mukkakukaku, @Billinghurst: Thank you, both, for your tips. Is there a single page cheat-sheet that lists such things, to aid those of us new to this method of working? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:41, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

The links in the welcome message are meant to provide that, though as we are reproducing works and these works take so many different perspectives over the past 300 years, a one page representation is too tricky. Part of the reason that we patrol and look to provide a supportive environment. We take whatever positive feedback about how we can improve things. We cover NOP in four help pages, depending on your approach

There may be some duplication. A smaller community focusing on transcription is not necessarily always burying its head in documentation. — billinghurst sDrewth 02:14, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: Thank you. I saw all those, but I specifically wanted a single page cheat-sheet, akin to the one at en:w:Help:Cheatsheet (precisely to avoid "burying my head in documentation"!). I've started drafting one, at User:Pigsonthewing/Cheatsheet. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:34, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
There really isn't one. I refer back to those pages constantly, and anything that I figure out in the meantime I put in a personal cheat sheet in my own userspace -- generally templates and things I tend to use more often but which are not included in the general documentation. And even now I am still learning about new templates -- no longer as often as I used to, of course, but often enough.
(In addition to the above links, I also find the WS:Style guide useful to refer back to on occasion.)
As an example/annecdote, I generally work on government reports related to aviation accidents, and cookbooks. I rarely have to work with poems, or with musical scores -- so when I do end up running into such things, I have to go look at the documentation and examples, and even now occasionally ask for help. (Especially with the musical scores.) But typewritten documents usually have certain kinds of quirks that I've figured out how to template around, and I've documented those in my userspace in a way that I'll remember. I probably make more use of the {{illegible}} template than most other editors just because of the types of documents I deal with. My cheat sheet would be of limited global use since the majority of our works are, well, not typewritten aviation accident reports from the early 20th century. :)
I would heartily recommend that you start a cheat sheet of your own in your userspace somewhere -- possibly in your sandbox unless you're using that for something else -- and put in there the templates and syntaxes and policies and other oddities that you find yourself having to look up/reference constantly, or that are the most common in the types of works that you're addressing. The works that we deal with are generally too widely varied to support a single cheat sheet, but you can always maintain your own based on your interests and the types of works that you're dealing with. --Mukkakukaku (talk) 06:20, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Were you going to have a go at page transclusion?[edit]

I am not sure whether you are pausing at the end of a day, or thinking "now for images", or looking left and right to see what is happening. As there can be a pleasure with transcluding and (finally) seeing all that work come together, it is unusual for someone to step into the breach, well at least until a work sits at proofread for an extended period. If you were wanting some pointers, or assistance, you can pop into WS:S or just ping someone, plenty of people would be happy to show you the reins. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:22, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: The latter of your three options, with the added issue of not knowing whether the images must come before anything else. Any suggestions gratefully received. Also, I have an old book which I would like to scan and upload. Where do I start? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:47, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
As images are not everyone's speciality, it has been acceptable to leave images as problematic and allow transclusion. If marked with {{raw image}} rather than {{missing image}}, the whole page displays, and every so often Hesperian runs his bot through and uploads JP2000 images here from the scans at, which allows a cleanup for those, and their migration to Commons. Others will head over to a page like then magnify to the greatest level, right click and save, then cleanup from there. There is some info at Help:Digitising texts and images for Wikisource#Images and illustrations.

I am no graphics expert, though I somewhat successfully (my opinion, maybe not factually supported) prod around with GIMP, and I use a locally developed script User:Inductiveload/Remove-background-colour.scm to help on image cleanup. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:21, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Re scans, it is our general recommendation that users upload to Internet Archive in best quality, and let them do their processing with their high end tools; then we import to Commons using toollabs:IA-upload. If you felt that you wanted to do more leg work, there are local pages explaining what others have done. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:24, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
Re transclusion, tell me/us what you would like to happen and what assistance you would like (OR if examples are needed, I could do the root page, as that usually needs a little more tinkering, and one of the chapters, and you can play from there). (Within the realms of Wikisource:Style guide) as I indicated, it is your contribution, and we have a practice of being guided by lead contributor, rather than us forcing the pace. While not a perfect approach, it is less confrontational and has been mostly successful, especially when someone has slaved over a work for days, months, years. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:33, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: "I could do the root page... and one of the chapters" - sounds good; please do. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:29, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done If you are a mobile app person, you may wish to have a look to see that it renders okay in that form. To also consider whether you think that the ToC and the ToI might be better with a max-width set (we can wrap those inside {{block center|max-width=nnnpx|<pages index=... />}}) as some ToC and the pages look better a little more compact. You can also toggle through the [default layouts] in the left hand toolbar to see if any representation looks preferable. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:49, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: Thank you again. Please check now. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:57, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
There are subpages for the chapters, and obviously the links are not sufficiently overt. Maybe have a look at In Dickens's London/Chapter 2 and work forward. You will see the red links at Index:Hopkinson Smith--In Dickens's London.djvubillinghurst sDrewth 13:14, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: Please try now. We seem to be missing half of the expected chapters(!), and there's an issue with text after image captions on some pages. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:45, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: So how would I, for example, get the images I just put on c:Category:The Monk's Prophecy into IA? (Feel free to point me at an FAQ; and thanks for your lead on the Dickens book.) Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:39, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
A strong of gifs is difficult with which to play. We would ideally grab as a pdf, or find the overarching edition of "Irish Monthly". If you are stuck with a string of gifs, then I would suggest that we build an index page with an artificial page listing. A recent example of something very simple is Index:What Can I Do^ - NARA - 534471.jpg, and for yours we would just build the respective images with the respective gifs, and each link is the corresponding page number. Then we just use the google ocr gadget to pump out the text. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:57, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment we also have a reasonable gadget that allows addition/input to WD from this end (use the "FRBR edition" link). The gadget still lacks some components though covers most needed components. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:52, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Missing images[edit]

When pages do not yet have their images; we tag them as "problematic". Marking a page as "proofread" on Wikisource implies that not only has the text been proofread for errors, but it has been formatted and images have been included. --EncycloPetey (talk) 17:12, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

If you would like help setting up the book's Table of Contents, I'd be happy to do so. --EncycloPetey (talk) 17:26, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

House style[edit]

Older books usually include a half-space on wither side of an em-dash. English Wikisource collapses that half-space, in accordance with modern typography, rather than expanding it to a full space or attempting to recreate the compacted spacing. --EncycloPetey (talk) 17:32, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

{{nop}} is used when there is a new paragraph on the following page. Normally, when pages are transcluded, the paragraph at the end of a page is assumed to continue onto the following page. So when the next page begins a new paragraph, we have to add {{nop}} on its own line at the end of the previous page to keep the software from concatenating the two paragraphs. --EncycloPetey (talk) 19:17, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Also useful: {{sc}} (small-caps) Which renders text to look like this. --EncycloPetey (talk) 19:19, 25 August 2018 (UTC)


Hello. I was wondering if you have another source for the last page of this text (that is not Google books) where I could compare text for validation purposes where words are missing. Perhaps upload an image of the alt source you used so we can document it here? Thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 13:46, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

I found the source I used fully legible, once the contrast and gamma were adjusted. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:33, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. Played around with the image in Photoshop a bit and it did help significantly—almost fully legible. Londonjackbooks (talk) 03:44, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Wikilivres page[edit]

Your edits don't correct the link; it merely breaks the link to the wrong site without establishing the correct link.

As I see it, we have two options: (1) wait for the issue to be fixed at Meta, or (2) temporarily disable all links through this template. --EncycloPetey (talk) 21:00, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Try again. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:00, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
Seems to be working now. Thanks. --EncycloPetey (talk) 21:02, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

The actual fix has gone through at meta now. --EncycloPetey (talk) 15:59, 27 December 2018 (UTC)