User talk:Inductiveload

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Inductiveload User Area
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WELCOME to my user talk page. Feel free to leave me a message if there is a problem or you would like my help, or anything else.

I am also active on Commons. If you would like help with a file I uploaded or would like me to make a file for you, please ask at my user talk page there. If the request is Wikisource-centred, ask here.

Anything you write on this page will be archived, so please be polite and don't write anything you will regret later! My purpose here is to make interesting and useful documents open to the public. I am never trying to make trouble, and any problems can almost certainly be resolved quickly and easily if everyone stays calm.

Please sign your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~) after your post, and continue conversations where they start. This helps to keep discussions coherent for future readers. If I leave a message on your page, then please reply there. My replies to messages left on this page will be here.

Wikisource user page Commons user page Wikibooks user page Wikipedia user page

Module:New texts/data[edit]

Is this going to be a manual process and reliant on you? If so, that doesn't seem sustainable nor reliable. I would have thought that we could be getting user:Wikisource-bot to do that more reliably. I would have also thought that we could be doing something setting something to be a json page via Special:ChangeContentModel somewhere . I could be dreaming though if we could have something that will scrape an archived line in "new texts" poke into a json file and then remove the line. If we set up the schema, I am happy to go back and convert all the previous years into json pages. The one thing that we will need to allow is updated for disambiguation and moves. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:17, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

While on that, I am guessing that module: ns is not the long term living habitat for the data. Plus if we are recording json data like this, I would love if we could allow to record WD item data number. I think that there is long term value, and we should be able to run queries and bots, and maybe help twittify stuff more readily. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:22, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: the idea was to transition entirely to the module, since {{#invoke:New texts|new_texts|limit=7}} provides exactly what you need. Then, there's no archiving needed at all, except for at the end of a year, when you just copy the whole durn thing to the year's archive page. Template:New texts/testcases provides a comparison.
I have (finally) figured out how to inhale JSON. So now the data lives at Template:New texts/data.json, and archived data would be at Template:New texts/data/2020.json etc.
Re The one thing that we will need to allow is updated for disambiguation and moves. this is the same as currently - update the link target (i.e. the title value).
Re Wikidata, it's certainly possible to link to WD. However, due to the number of items, you will not be able to use it to construct pages like Wikisource:Works/2021 if they have more that about 400 entries (and we're on track to break that limit), because that's the limit on how many WD items a single page can load. So we can't fall back entirely onto a list of only Q-numbers, awesome though that would be. With PWB, at least, it's trivial to get the Q-number for a page given the title value, so you can work backwards. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 10:26, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Ignorant question. Does the tabular json have any benefit for us mw:Help:Tabular Data as I see it is an available content type. I don't trust users to edit json files, though I wonder at there ability to edit a table. — billinghurst sDrewth 05:01, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: I can't get it to work here: do we have the Data namespace turned on? Tables would be useful for lots of stuff (e.g. volume data that Wikidata doesn't seem bothered about). Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 21:23, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
No idea. I was prodding people in irc #mediawiki though no one took the bait. I will prod some other avenues, though might be a "meh". — billinghurst sDrewth 23:09, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

In relation to you periodicals issue, there are a number of library cataloguers at Wikidata, it is just a matter of finding one for the help. I saw someone in the past couple of weeks but for the life of me cannot remember where. You may find someone through Wikidata:Status updates or you could try emailing someone like Ruth and asking for help, or being ask for someone as I am sure that they are a tight community. Let me prod someone on twitter to see if they can point someone to answer the question. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:31, 13 April 2021 (UTC) sDrewth 07:46, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: Well I'm suppose I am pleased that I'm not the only one who finds the ontology tricksy. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 08:02, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
Found them, so pushing from that direction d:User_talk:UWashPrincipalCataloger#May_I_borrow_your_time?billinghurst sDrewth 23:50, 14 April 2021 (UTC)


January starts at 2., then February resets and starts at 3., March resets and starts at 4. Novel, though I am not sure that it is the objective. Can we get the count firstly start at 1 ,and then continue in the next month? Thanks. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:03, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 15:59, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Problem with refilling Index Page[edit]

Just tried your awesome new Refill Index Page link and I got a bit of an oddity. It says [[Author:H. G. Wells|Author:H. G. Wells]]. Shouldn't it be [[Author:H. G. Wells|H. G. Wells]].

Also the Volume is coming out as [[/14|14]] leading to Index:The Works of H G Wells Volume 14.pdf/Volume 14. Shouldn't it be [[%series title%/14|14]]. This is probably a good way of thinking about title vs series title. %title% should produce [[%title%]], Volume %volume% while %series title% should produce [[%series title%/%volume%|%series title% (Volume %volume%)]]

Finally, the edit text says

"You are editing in the Index namespace, see Editing help and Index pages

This page includes a form for entering details about a work. There is a gadget to auto-populate fields from the File: at Commons:."

Shouldn't it say

"You are editing in the Index namespace, see Editing help and Index pages

This page includes a form for entering details about a work. There is a gadget to auto-populate fields from the File:%link to file at commons% at Commons:." Languageseeker (talk) 13:03, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: For me, it fills the author as [[Author:H. G. Wells|]], which comes out correct (it's called the Pipe trick).
As I have said already, you should set the title at the Commons page, not the series. The series does not import to the Index page and you have not set any title at all at Commons. So it imports nothing. We do not always place works in a series as subpages of the series, because "series" can be quite a nebulous concept and works within a "series" may well be full-on works in their own right (as opposed to volumes of a single work). For example, The Garden of Eden is part of the New-Church Popular Series but it is a top-level book in its own right.
I have modified the edit notice for Index pages (I actually have that turned off in my CSS to save space, so I haven't seen it for some time!) Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Index:The_Works_of_H_G_Wells_Volume_14.pdf Looks better, but I'm still getting the problem with the Author. Also, right now, we have two different links for the transcluded text: ''[[The works of H. G. Wells]]'' and [[The works of H. G. Wells/Volume 14|Volume 14]]. Shouldn't we just keep the second?
Also, the links does not go to Commons directly. Could it go to Common directly? Languageseeker (talk) 14:00, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
@Languageseeker: OK, that was bizarre, the JS was being pre-processed with the Pipe trick. Should work now.
The link now goes directly to Commons.
We usually have a link to the top of the work (in this case, it would be a volume list of the 28 volumes) and a link directly to the volume transclusion. E.g. Index:EB1911_-_Volume_01.djvu. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:34, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Works beautifully. Thanks Languageseeker (talk) 14:45, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done Languageseeker (talk) 15:30, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Batch Import Periodical or External Scan Link[edit]

I've noticed that there are a lot of pages, such as The Atlantic Monthly where there are {{ext scan link}} suggesting that users might find it troublesome to manually import dozens of volumes even if they are able to find the links. Would it be possible to batch import them and set up the template for the volumes? Languageseeker (talk) 13:50, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

It's possible, but gathering all the requisite metadata and makes it a little more labour-intensive than you might think. At the least, you would need, for TAM, for each volume:
  • The date range: e.g. November 1857 – May 1858
  • Publication year (e.g. 1858)
  • IA or HT ID (ideally IA because then you don't need to mess with reconstructing a Hathi scan, which takes a long time)
  • City (probably always Boston?)
  • Publisher if known
  • The license (easy up to 1926)
  • The Commons category (e.g. commons:Category:The Atlantic Monthly, 1858)
None of it is hard, just a bit of a faff. I use a spreadsheet to generate commons files and Index pages. Then it's just a matter of battling the Commons uploader API which is having a bit of a sulk at the moment. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:20, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps, we can do something like {{ext scan link|url|desired name}} and pass that off to the IA upload tool? If the file appears on Common, then change to {{small scan link|desired name}}. Then we wouldn't have to worry about guessing the file name, creating the Index Page, or bad index pages. Then this tool would become a sort of auto-filler for the IA tool. It would also be useful in cases when the IA tool failed so that the uploads could be retried automatically. What do you think? Languageseeker (talk)
That would need support from the IA-Upload tool which is in various degrees of broken-down-itude at any given time. A way to prefill with a URL like "" would be handy, for sure, and I have wished for it before (but not hard enough to figure out how to install and hack on the tool....yet). Also with a little bit of care, you can do better than blindly upload from the IA using their terrible metadata, like, for example, putting the dates covered in the description. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:41, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
It might be possible to just borrow code from the IA tool because lots of it wouldn't be needed. Basically, get the URL, build the link to the PDF, URl2Commons, import metadata. A new, simplier IA upload tool with no GUI and no user interaction. Languageseeker (talk) 14:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
@Languageseeker: It would be a nice trick, and probably not that hard. But it'll still suck up the IA's rubbish metadata and dump the files in a generic category, whereas I think you could ideally do a bit better than that. Not least, with a bit more care, you can create the Index page too, which you cannot do with Url2Commons.
It's on my list to enable a better batch upload system for Wikisource, but the list is long and the days are short. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:58, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
I know that you're swamped and there is way too much to do. Would it be possible to set up a vote on feature requests? Maybe one month for proposals and then a ranked vote?
I know that metadata is not the greatest on IA, but it often requires manually editing. No tool will ever fix incorrect or absent metadata. However, trying to upload 95 volumes manually takes hours of just staring while tasks run in the background. It would take less time to batch upload and then fix metadata manually. Maybe, it would be possible to just borrow code from Fæbot? Languageseeker (talk) 15:06, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
IME, it's much quicker to set all the metadata in a big ugly spreadsheet and then upload it all in one go (staring at the terminal is strictly optional). Opening and editing 95 file pages and 95 index pages (or fiddling with a bot to make the changes retroactively) is not very exciting.
I plan to post my uploader script at some point (a point where it isn't full of API keys and imports of random modules from various places). "One day" it might morph into a full-on toolforge tool, but that needs UI and all sorts of bulletproofing.
Voting on feature requests is all very well, but you still need someone to do them. Comm Tech is already being nice to us with the exporter and OCR projects, and there are not many people "into" the JS/Tools side of things. Most of the tools have been rotting for years: half the existing gadgets don't work as promised. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 15:20, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Uhm. Uploading and adding an index for 95 volumes is one thing. What takes effort is verifying that all pages of all 95 volumes are present and legible. Just mirroring IA is something a bot can do at any time. --Xover (talk) 12:46, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
@Xover: indeed, which I why I'm not on a multi-thousand volume mass upload spree, because locating the good scans and filling in metadata is more work that actually pressing the button on a list of 95 IA IDs and using their awful metadata without even checking.
On the other hand, the IA (or HT) pagelists (e.g., or a local equivalent) help a lot because if you see this:
then you know that volume is very likely complete, because the numbering is continuous right to the end (actually, you normally know that earlier: as you see a non-BW-Google scan). So that helps a bit. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 13:30, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
I’m not advocating on going on a uploading spree, but making uploading faster and easier is something that can benefit users. On one hand, IA and Hathi Trust have many duplicates that we don’t need. Also, nobody needs to proofread a reprint that has no illustrations, author input, or scholarly value. We’re a curated collection not donations in a box. Curation takes time. However, every user has a limited amount of time. Do we want to spend their time doing something that a bot can do or on something that a bot cannot? A bot can upload 95 volumes, but it cannot verify the completeness of a work. With such a bot, I can go to IA, find the best scan, set up the links on the Author page, press save, and the then do something else. In a day, the files will be there and I can proceed to set up the index pages. Languageseeker (talk) 14:55, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
BTW, I’ve seen plenty of incomplete non-Google scans especially from the LOC. Hathi Trust has a feedback button that we can use to report missing pages. Languageseeker (talk) 14:57, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Media matters[edit]

cf. this. It occurs to me that we may well still have files referenced using the Media: prefix. I run into them now and again, so the odds someone stuffed one into {{di}} somewhere is at least non-zero. --Xover (talk) 12:41, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done (but AFAICT none found so far), also for Image which indeed had a few. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 07:41, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

{{FIS}} is broken[edit]

Hi. The {{FIS}} introduced paragraph breaks before and after the image. I used this template hundreds of time to offset images where the text is supposed to flow around without a break. — Ineuw (talk) 13:58, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ineuw: A link to an affected page would be handy. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:04, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
Apologies, Page:The_Rise_of_the_Russian_Jew.djvu/1.— Ineuw (talk) 14:07, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
The problem is {{fs85}} is a block element. FIS is a span, but if you put a div inside, it'll break the surrounding paragraph. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:15, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
This is a very belated thank you. I didn't forget, it's just that I was embarrassed about the number of stupid problems requesting help for around that time. Thanks again for all your help.— Ineuw (talk) 01:47, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Script Request... Recent Activity warning...[edit]


Would it be possible to have a script that adds as bar to the top of pages, that indicates a page has been edited recently, or that there is a 'frequency' of edits to related pages?

The thinking here is that as it can take some time to setup or edit certain pages (like Index pagelists), if you have other 'fast' editors, there is a high potential for edit conflicts, which for long-term contributors can become a frustration. A warning about recent activity can potentially avoid these.

I am not sure how plausible it is to have a mechanism during the loading of the Edit page, which warns about potential edit conflicts, before you even start editing a page though.. Not sure if the edit requests are tracked in an accessible way that would make somthing like a "X is already editing this page..." the way Discord has a "X is typing..." warning in near real-time..

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:05, 5 April 2021 (UTC)


  mw.hook( 'active_page_alert.config' ).add( function ( apa ) {
    apa.cfg.userLimits = [
          user: 'SomeUser',
          timeLimit: 120
  } );

Bit a help with Template needed[edit]

Can you help me out with {{The_works_of_John_Ruskin}}. The volumes are 01, 02, etc. Languageseeker (talk) 23:10, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

For {{The collected works of Henrik Ibsen}}, volume 1 is a pdf.
@Languageseeker: Yes check.svg Done × 2. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 23:14, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Common Link to Small Scan Link[edit]

Is is possible to convert all {{Commons link}} to {{small scan link}}. This seems to be an ancient way to say that the file for proofreading exists on Common, but we now have Proofreader Page. Also, why do is there {{small scan link}} instead of {{scan link}}? Seems like extra typing for nothing. Languageseeker (talk) 00:46, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: {{Commons link}} link just means there is no Index page (yet), normally you skip that and go right to a scan link. Make an index page and you can change to a scan link. You can use {{ssl}}, or even User:inductiveload/save load actions if you want. Or AutoHotkey or similar. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 00:51, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Problem with Small Scan Link and multi volumes that do not start with 1[edit]

I'm having a problem with {{small scan link}} where if I don't set the first volume to 1 it throws Lua error: At least an Index page is required. For multi volume series, such as the Complete Works of John Ruskin at Author:John_Ruskin, there are cases where the first volume is not actually 1. Languageseeker (talk) 00:50, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

{{ssl}} contains the instructions for that case: use the nameN parameters. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 00:52, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
What's the syntax for nameN? I don't see any examples on the template page. Languageseeker (talk) 01:02, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
@Languageseeker: (What have you tried?) Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 01:05, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
I tried {{small scan link|vol3=The_works_of_John_Ruskin_(IA_worksofjohnruski03rusk).pdf}} Languageseeker (talk) 01:06, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Better Footnotes[edit]

I noticed that when transcribing footnotes, there is currently no way to preserve the original reference. Instead, Wikisource creates a new numbering scheme for footnotes that has no basis in the original text. See, Page:The_New_Monthly_Magazine_-_Volume_101.djvu/74. Is there anyway to create a template to override these? Perhaps something like this


For example,

To Godstowe's glade;{{footnote|<ref>See ''Reginald Dalton.'' Book iii. chap, v.</ref> and hallows all the scene<br />|*}}

which would transclude to

To Godstowe's glade* and hallows all the scene

Page 62, *: See Reginald Dalton. Book iii. chap, v.

Languageseeker (talk) 01:18, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: We don't try to reproduce the original footnote numbering exactly, see Help:Footnotes_and_endnotes. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 01:40, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Is there any particular reason why not? It seems like a fairly big change to alter the way that notes are referenced. Languageseeker (talk) 01:48, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
I don't know exactly, but it pre-dates me. I'm sure you could dig up discussions on the Scriptorium. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 01:49, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
It seems like a fairly controversial topic that comes up fairly regularly. User:EncycloPetey and User:billinghurst are against it while other keeps on requesting it. Their main concern appears to be that it makes footnotes lose their distinctiveness when transcluded. However, can we not preserve them when transcluding by including the page number? With the community fairly divided on this, would it not be better to put this up for a vote? Languageseeker (talk) 02:06, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Because we are converting from footnotes to endnotes, and works we do are typically footnotes that restart each page, many do not scale, and have seen endnotes with over a 100 count sources. PLUS we have a house-style and numbers would appear to be the consensus (and it pre-dates me too). Otherwise, I don't see that it is anything of particular concern a citation is a citation, and a house-style is a house-style. — billinghurst sDrewth 07:58, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: The issue is that it is hugely inaccurate and a fairly large modification of the source text. I can understand converting footnotes to endnotes, but renumbering footnotes makes them impossible to reference. If a book had Page 15, †, then it's incorrect to say that this is footnote 27. It seems that the consensus occurred many eons ago before Proofread Page existed and now we can easily format them correctly. Maybe it's time to revisit this if it's become technically possible and easy to do this. Languageseeker (talk) 12:47, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
If someone truly needs the number from the original source, they have access to the scan page by simply clicking on the page number in the margin. If the original source is using symbols, where the same symbol is used repeatedly for the first footnote on every page, then reproducing that will mean many, many footnotes all marked identically, which is useless in an electronic format. --EncycloPetey (talk) 13:06, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
(ec) The conversation doesn't particularly belong on a user talk page. But do tell me which of the 22 *, 13 †, 8 ‡ or the seven 22 1s, 13 2s, 8 3s you think should stay the same when they become endnotes? Tell me that you would like to see the split references remain split as they come from different pages. There is nothing wikt:inaccurate, let alone hugely inaccurate, so please stop the rhetorical flourishes; the refs are automatically generated and they accurately reflect the text and position of the reference that is in the work. Show me one _inaccuracy_ on a properly formatted and proofread page. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:08, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

IA Scan Link Template[edit]

It turns out that there's a {{Internet Archive small link}}. Could it be improved so that if the file exists on Common, it acts as a small scan link and if not, it redirects to IA?

For example,

{{Internet Archive small link|newvoyageroundwo01damp}}

would check if {{Internet Archive link|newvoyageroundwo01damp}} exists on Commons, if so and filetype is PDF or DJVU, it would act as {{ssl|A new voyage round the world. - Describing particularly, the isthmus of America, several coasts and islands in the West Indies, the Isles of Cape Verd, the passage by Terra del Fuego (IA newvoyageroundwo01damp).pdf}}

if not, then it would go to the current code

<span title="Copy of this work at the Internet Archive" style="font-size: 83%; white-space:nowrap;">([{{{1}}} IA])</span>

This should help users avoid having to try to upload the file through the IA tool only to find out that the file already exists because someone already uploaded it which is a colossal waste of time. Languageseeker (talk) 13:03, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: AFAIK there is no way to get the filename of a PDF or Djvu with a given IA ID in the info via Lua, and that means you can't do what you want. At best you could write a gadget to flag up "stale" Commons links in JS (e.g. make them red or whatever) and suggest a replacement. There are only 60 transclusions of {{Commons link}} (it's not a very common template), so I think this is not a very exciting prospect. If you're going to go around tagging with {{Commons link}}, you might as well use {{ssl}} and set up the index while you are at it. Lua is limited to mw:Extension:Scribunto/Lua_reference_manual. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 13:22, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Oh ok. So you can do File -> Get Metadata, but not Find Metadata -> get File? Languageseeker (talk) 13:39, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Pretty much, yep. You can do it in JS (presumably aping however the IA-Upload tool detects matching IDs), but not, AFAIK, in Lua (remember that gets pre-rendered by the server on save - if it does a search as part of that, how will the server know when to re-render if, say, you upload a matching file?) Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:06, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

"We're all mad here."[edit]

Ok, so one issue we will have to solve once and for all with ppoem is separator / elision lines.

Starting somewhere completely different, I've fallen into what seems to be an endless rabbit hole where we're using {{loop}}, {{ ***}}, {{}}, {{separator}}, and probably a few more I've not had the misfortune to meet yet, plus manually spacing out asterii, dots, and middots with nonbreaking spaces.

So far I haven't really thought much about the solution; but I've concluded this is definitely a problem, and one that rises to "ppoem must deal well with" through the combination of this being difficult to solve inside ext:Poem and the relative high frequency of appearances of such lines in poems in general.

I'm currently mulling over ways to fix and merge (or replace) various subsets of the above templates for this purpose, but the though has also occurred to me that "it sure would be nice" to support it directly in ppoem. That way probably lies madness due to the number of knobs people can, and do, tweak with the existing templates, but I'm throwing it out there in case you see a potential for a clean solution where I can't. But however we approach it, I want to say the goal should be that once ppoem deploys generally there is One True Way™ to do such lines inside a ppoem, that is well documented, and all other ways should be avoided. --Xover (talk) 13:27, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

@Xover: I want to say flex box, but I'm unsure if that will export in any kind of sane way. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:07, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

'New' math....[edit]

There seems to be a bot that updates formulae using MATH tags to resolve some issues, See

Could something like the bot there be implemented here ? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:34, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: I'd certainly hope that they'll provide the fixes as needed with their bot. Is there any indication we have any issues manifesting at enWS? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 13:03, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
There may be a few affected pages. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:12, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

The Complete Poems of Paul Laurence Dunbar[edit]

Thank you for your awesome work on The Complete Poems of Paul Laurence Dunbar. Languageseeker (talk) 00:32, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Sword Blades and Poppy Seed in Author:Amy Lowell[edit]

Can you help clean this up so that it doesn't spam the PG category? Languageseeker (talk) 01:10, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: Yes check.svg Done Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 01:47, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks Languageseeker (talk) 03:05, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Metadata not loading[edit]

I'm having a strange problem affecting The Works of Charles Dickens where the metadata is not loading from Commons. It's basically all the red links on this page. When I tried to add Index:Works of Charles Dickens, ed. Lang - Volume 28.djvu and then reload the index data, it still didn't work. Languageseeker (talk) 00:48, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: The Commons page doesn't use Commons:Template:Book, that's why. The metadata filler takes the information from the Book template - if it's missing, there's not much it can practically do. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 00:53, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks. I fixed the metadata. Languageseeker (talk) 02:14, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
@Languageseeker: I don't think this really counts as "fixing" something. The metadata is now substantially worse. For a start, the title is wrong, there's no author and you've trashed the categorisation. That template wasn't used for no reason. The title of the work is The Works of Charles Dickens, the title of the volume is American Notes and Pictures from Italy. I think you need to be a bit more circumspect when storming into "fixing" "problems". In this case, filling in the Index page metadata manually would have likely been the easier way forward. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 02:28, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Better? Languageseeker (talk) 04:55, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
@Languageseeker: Marginally, but still not as good as it was. Why did this even need changing at all? Just so you could do a one-off import with a helper gadget at Wikisource? Now that's done, what's the point of leaving the page worse off than before you changed it? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 06:49, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
I cleaned it up a bit more. My overall goal is to replace the needless non-standard template with a standard book template. It's not like the metadata was that great in the first place. Languageseeker (talk) 14:33, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
@Languageseeker: It was better than it is now, and it's not exactly hard to see where. The editor is still missing, you have mixed up the subtitle, the volume title and description, you have mixed up "location" and "city" and you have not replaced the category that the template added and removed the language tagging. Please either put it back how it was, or if you want to use the book template, make sure there is at least the same metadata there was before and in the right fields. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 16:22, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Um, the incorrect publisher on Vol 28 was not actually the result of my edit. I looked over your template on Commons Template:Works of Charles Dickens volume and I noticed some issues. The major one is that the documentation for the Book template states that Volume should be a number while you have a text field (Volume={{{volume}}}: {{{title}}}). So, I believe that it might require fixing. I’m also not sure why you made City={{{location|}}} instead of City={{{city|}}}. Seems a bit confusing and this is causing an issue when changing it to the book template. In my edit, I put “With Introduction, Notes and General Essay by Andrew Lang” into the Description field so that the subtitle could be the name of the work. I don’t see a volume title in Book. I’m happy to revert if you fix your template to follow Commons guidelines, make sure that it can work on importing, and apply it to all the volumes. Otherwise, it seems to me that reverting the changes would just return us to a broken
"Um", you have done the import already, so that's specious. Also there is zero exception that the Commons info needs to conform itself to whatever rudimentary heuristic the Wikisource helper script uses. If the script doesn't work, just deal with it and enter it manually. It only needs doing once anyway.
I don't know why city → location, but it's not that confusing if you just check the page before you save it. If you want to use Book, whatever, I have no issues with that, but breaking stuff to put pressure on to fix things you don't like is not constructive. Just compare what it was and what it is. There is still missing data. If you care so much about the volume title not having a dedicated field, you should raise the issue at commons:Template talk:Book (and get involved in fixing the issue, not just drive by with "um, this is not how I like it kthxbai") and not just abuse the description field (which is for "out of band" information like physical condition or whatever) and move on, leaving messed up stuff in your wake that someone else has to deal with. Thousands of books have a volume title there. If you want to go on a mission to add a volume title field and tidy them up, into more a more semantic field, fine, I'd even say that's a good idea. But until then, leave things strictly better than you found them, and I think we can all agree that how you intended to leave it is not better than how it was. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 12:58, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Let’s bury the hatchet on this one. I never meant to make things worse. I might have been a bit hasty and didn’t realize that was a custom template and not just a user error. I tried to fix this it, but it didn’t seem to work out. I respect you and what you do for this site too much to want to create bad blood or hurt feelings% Languageseeker (talk) 05:36, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Handshake hands.svg (or socially-distanced equivalent). I have raised a query on commons:Template talk:Book about adding a volume title, because you are right in that forcing the volume number and title into one field is not ideal.
I sorry if I came over as sharp. I have no intrinsic desire to keep a work-specific template over Book, BTW, I just would like to make sure that there is strictly no less metadata. Ideally, of course, all the bibliographic info (as opposed to file specific) should be pulled from some structured data "somewhere" (Wikidata/Commons SDC/something else?) but I have no idea what that should be, and I don't have enough clones of myself to really dig into it right now, let alone embark on some mission to improve all the literal millions of books at Commons. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 07:26, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Help with Splitting Images and Creating DJVU[edit]

Can you help split the images in Paradise Lost 1674 and create a DJVU out of them? Languageseeker (talk) 02:14, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

If you could use ScanTailor or similar to prepare a set of split images, I'll run it through the DJVU/OCRifier. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 02:36, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm not very good with batch jobs. This guy uploaded 32 rare books without splitting the pages and it would be great to do them all [1], but I lack the technical skill. Languageseeker (talk) 05:25, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
@Languageseeker: It's not a batch job as such, ScanTailor is for processing scan images (e.g. splitting, etc). Give it a try before saying you can't do it.
I'll make 32 DjVus from 32 zips of images because I know that's quite hard and until I can get round to publishing the code and/or making a web-based tool others may not be able to do it easily. But doing 32 end-to-end extract/splits and making the DjVus and doing all the metadata for upload "on spec" is more than I have time for, sorry. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 07:03, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
No worries at all. I appreciate you looking into it. Languageseeker (talk) 20:25, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

author template/module picked up a comma section <-> contributor ?[edit]

Maybe I am losing it, though I don't remember that we had a comma between the section name when we used contributor as shows at McClure's Magazine/Volume 9/Number 1/May. Would you be so kind to recheck, and if we didn't can we please head that way. Thanks. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:29, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: Yes check.svg Done . Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 12:23, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

A Little Help with a template[edit]

I'm trying to create {{IAu}} to simplify uploading to Commons from IA. It basically takes the three parameter that IA upload tool needs and constructs a url from them: {{IAu|Internet Archive ID|Common File Name|pdf or djvu}}. However, I'm running into an issue where

{{IAu|jesuitrelations169jesugoog|59|pdf}} works, but

{{IAu|cu31924092218191|The Jesuit relations and allied documents (Volume 27)|pdf}} doesn't.

Anyway you can take a look? Languageseeker (talk) 15:42, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: The problem is Parameter 2 has a space in it. This means the link is: [ Jesuit relations and allied documents (Volume 27)&format=pdf Upload ...], which turns into a link with the URL "" and the text "Jesuit relations and allied documents (Volume 27)&format=pdf Upload ...".
The solution is URL-encoding the URL parameters: like this. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 15:56, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! Languageseeker (talk) 02:29, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

with new per index css[edit]

I am guessing that with the new css setup, that we can stop doing per row align right like in Page:A catalogue of notable Middle Templars, with brief biographical notices.djvu/293 and do something with td:nth-child or per column. If we can, could you create something in Index:A catalogue of notable Middle Templars, with brief biographical notices.djvu/styles.css and I can take it from there. Guessing that we are creating classes. I know that we looked at it many many years ago however our css was too dated at that time. It will definitely make for simpler coding at a work level. Thanks if you can help. — billinghurst sDrewth 07:31, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: There you go! Mostly just a regex replace for things like {{ts|ar}} and making the letter headings into headers (using !). Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 07:43, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
If we can set the last or the right-most column what are your thoughts on a global class of align last column right? It is common enough to make global, and people set all the other formatting as needed around it through a work's css. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:11, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
So global table classes is something I have thought about for a very long time. {{table class}} (not my work) attempts to deal with some of the common cases. The issue is a multi-way balancing act between simplicity of expression, simplicity of markup, simplicity of implementation/maintenance and robustness.
I have some concerns with how {{tc}} is implemented, e.g. because classes like _bt are basically just an indirect way to say {{ts|bt}}. CSS shines where we can leverage selectors like descendants and :nth-child. For example __grid is something that cannot be done without very verbose inline styling.
There's also a risk of de-semanticising (ironic use of a non-word intended!) things as well as providing a wide surface for fragility. For example, the following would render the same:
{| class="somework_somedata"
|... index CSS provides the grid and margin:auto rules here, which apply to the "_somedata" type of tables.
{{table class/import}}
{| class="__grid __floatc"
However, the latter is a stylistic intent (basically used as a shorthand for hundreds of {{ts}} calls), while the former is a semantic statement of the form "this table is a somedata table" and the styling is a natural consequence of that, with the class identity→styling mapping performed by the index CSS on a work-local basis. Which is perhaps a slightly sophistic argument, and out-of-touch with how we currently do things (mostly out of technical necessity) but I think it's certainly one to bear in mind before we storm ahead and scatter-gun thousands of quasi-global classes into tables all over the place.
To take the Templars index as a more concrete example, the question is do we prefer having a complete semantic→styling mapping in the index CSS (as we do now, more or less) or write something like class="last-col-ar heading-larger-centered margin-auto" and compose the styling out of many pre-made blocks (and still if anything can't be an off-the-shelf class we'll need to use index CSS to fill in the gaps).
Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 16:48, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

"The World and it's People"[edit]

You uploaded Vol 12 recently, so I created {{World and its People}} In case other volumes got uploaded by other contributors.

I note about 12 volumes in the series? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:16, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: Lol, that was a random upload to test IA-Upload could duplicate a PDF! Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 16:51, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Auto advancement. Of POTM[edit]

Just wondering how long it normally takes the POTM to advance once the current one is fully validated. Languageseeker (talk) 15:57, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Until someone changes the current value to something greater than 1. And before you ask, I don't really think this should be automated, because even if the index is validated, it may not be transcluded properly. With great care you could make an attempt at using the index page info like {{index transcluded}}, but since I'm sure there'll be ways for that to fall over in hilariously unforeseen ways and go unnoticed, it's probably easier to just change current manually. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 17:18, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
You know me too well. Seems my mind was confused. Hope good progress will be made on one of the greatest poetic works of the Harlem Renaissance. Languageseeker (talk) 19:28, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Help Scrapping Books from BL[edit]

I was wondering if you knew of any easy way to scrape all 127 quartros off the BL. The link is [2]. Then it goes to{{id}}&page=1 Languageseeker (talk) 03:53, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

You can scrape the images via the URL like Only the last number needs to be changed. With a bit of experimentation, you may be able to figure out the maximum page count, or just iterate until you hit a 404. For determining the ham-1603-22275x-bli-c01 "slug" for each work, you can load the PageMax.aspx page and pick out out the #uiPageImage element.
As before, ScanTailor is the tool of choice for splitting and de-skewing the double-page photos. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 11:16, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice, but that sounds a bit too technical for me. I don't know what slug is. I tried using scan tailor, but it produced a mess. I tried to automatically select the images and set uniform margins and produced a horribly degraded result. Languageseeker (talk) 20:14, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Review Activity of Billinghurst[edit]

Can you please review the activity of Billinghurst on Hamlet (Shakespeare). Not only has he removed valuable external scan links, but he's also removed existing scan links. Languageseeker (talk) 03:00, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Also, this comment he left on my talk page. User_talk:Languageseeker#You_are_all_over_the_place._Finish_your_works. Such conduct would be considered abusive when coming from a user let alone an administrator. Languageseeker (talk) 04:38, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Expanding use of preload to something on a per work basis[edit]

For some of our compilation works I would like to better utilise MediaWiki:Gadget-TemplatePreloader.js somehow for people working on these compilations.

A Biographical Dictionary of Modern Rationalists will be using the header adaptation Template:BDMR and it (now) has a /preload. I would like to have scope to put in this template rather than "header" utilising the path of the work. I would also like to see if we can look to do something similar with a range of other compilation works. I would hope that we wouldn't have to do it by editing the preloader.js itself but somehow leverage it by having a "by work" configuration file, json, something!

Nothing urgent urgent as I can do a templatescript that I can set up to do a replacement, but to make all these compilation works easier, better, uniform I see that it is our next evolution. If we can have it configurable outside of the javascript it gives great flexibility and ownership. Thanks for your consideration. — billinghurst sDrewth 02:54, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: hmm, yeah, so the idea is a (very) good one, but I'll need to think a bit about the implementation. JSON is probably a good call, as long as it actually loads as JSON when AJAX'd. I'll give it a poke at some point. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 09:08, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Less urgent, I remembered how I did the override ... Template:Editnotices/Group/A catalogue of notable Middle Templars, with brief biographical notices. Leaves a bit of a fat header, however, good enough for just a simple template and transclusion where the fat editnotice matters less. The (ugly) things that you forget when you haven't done them for years, and how sad is it when you are talking in terms of many years. :-/ — billinghurst sDrewth 12:45, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
Even betterer, I have set up some group documentation that can be applied at Template:Editnotices/Group/docbillinghurst sDrewth 13:04, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Beware the Jabberwookie![edit]

The first line of the first stanza.

This line belongs to no stanza.
Neither does this.

But this gets a shiny new stanza.
So long as we don't tickle the Jabberwookie.
It is much worse than the Jabberwock,
since it will wrap you up in peas.

I don't think, offhand, that this is fixable. So workarounds that come to mind are either magic syntax or a fake hr specifically for ppoem that uses markup that will not anger the Jabberwookie. Having also looked (very slightly) at {{}} and {{ ***}} in ppoem lately, I'm inclined to think we may need a small suite of the most common stuff specifically for use in ppoem, as an alternative to magic syntax.

PS. It also just occurred to me, that if we're to look at the extension route, the natural place to start is going to be SyntaxHighlight rather than poem. --Xover (talk) 06:45, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Xover: making the stanza a div helped (a bit), but HR inside SPAN is not quite right. Perhaps we should have a magic syntax to drop a line right out of a stanza and start a new stanza after it? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 09:43, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
When the rule is being used as a separator, sure; but here it conceptually is a line. I'm thinking what we need is a line span that just happens to display something that is visually indistinguishable from an actual horizontal rule.
The first line of the first stanza.
This is line three of the stanza.
“Hi there, I'm Stanza 1.4.”

Along those lines. All these types of rules might also need a smaller line-height to look balanced with the lines containing full-height characters. --Xover (talk) 10:03, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
@Xover: how about just {{bar}} then:
The first line of the first stanza.
Keep going...

Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 11:04, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, that's what I'm doing but bar has… other issues.
Random thought: a special kind of line, a "separator line", that has a smaller line-height, but is most likely going to be populated by a specific template (like bar) rather than by magic syntax? Not at all sure it's worth the effort and complexity, but… --Xover (talk) 13:17, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
@Xover: hmm, fundamentally such a thing can be done with the line class, so it could be {sep} ———.... BTW, which page is "type specimen" for this? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 13:20, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
this. And class would presumably do the job just fine. --Xover (talk) 13:49, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
And speaking of, what's your thought on the canonical way to tweak or disable the hanging indent? 4em is a bit aggressive for this use, and some bits should have none. --Xover (talk) 13:52, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
I guess we could do it as a class on the whole ppoem (and/or per stanzas. Since it's an effect on the line, the selector .ws-poem-no_indent .ws-poem-line would work in either case. The DI special-casing would need handling as well.
Sometimes I kinda envy the typesetters of yore who could just put a letter in the right place in the chase and pack it out with reglets. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:03, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Oh, I figured you had an idea of how that should be done. I'll try futzing with pre-defined classes and see how that feels. No indent is probably a shoe-in, but differently hanging indent quickly runs into the {{ts}} trap. {{hin}}, if it doesn't interact badly, may be it; otherwise the threat of magic syntax starts looming.
Yeah, traditional typesetting and layout have some definite advantages. And it's not helped particularly by us sitting squarely in the "sweet" spot where we get all the indeterminism and quirks without very much of the dynamism and flexibility. But ppoem raises the bar there, so there's certainly hope for the future. --Xover (talk) 15:04, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
@Xover: A built-in for no indent sounds like a good idea, and maybe 2em might make sense. After that, it probably makes sense for users wanting unconventional indents to supply their own classes, or Template:Ppoem/styles.css will look like a kitchen sink warehouse on stock-take day. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 15:25, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

broken index page <= config[edit]

Index:The character and extent of air pollution in Leeds - (A lecture delivered before the Leeds Philosophical Society, on March 3rd, 1896.) By Julius B. Cohen (IA b21534160).pdf has a red link on the status, and you have a double category naming. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:48, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: it looks OK to me (, even with a purge? Maybe it was a transient thing while the template and module switched over control of the status? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 13:15, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
No obvious breakage here either, for whatever that's worth. --Xover (talk) 13:18, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
But Index:The Cruise.pdf shows up with redlinked status and a borked category. --Xover (talk) 06:55, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
@Xover: looks OK to me? It could have been borked for a few minutes yesterday - cached? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 07:21, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
It was edited by an IP in the interrim (very strange coincidence), which would have reparsed it. --Xover (talk) 08:09, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
IP was SFan not logged in. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 17:19, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Transclusion status bot run[edit]

I'm seeing instances where there is a transclusion template with "yes" and the template is replaced with status marked, but other situations where there is a template that is not removed and the information is not transferred.

In particular, situations where there is a duplicate half-title page (or something similar) that is deliberately tagged and categorized as "not transcluded". Does the bot make a strict check that does not allow for these situations? --EncycloPetey (talk) 03:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@EncycloPetey: Pages should not be affected - this is index templates only. The bot makes no decisions, just copies the status from {{index validated date}} or {{index transcluded}} to the Index page field. Can you link a page you think it has not removed a template? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 03:48, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Oh, I take it you mean Index:Shakespeare's Sonnets (1923) Yale.djvu? I didn't think there were any using "X" and also the templates, since that was a short lived "temporary" state. I'll run though and check that (small) batch. Duh, sorry, I've thought of that - any "duplicate" templates will be hoovered up as the two old templates get converted. For a short period, a very small number of pages (~10 I estimate, out of ~13k) may have more than one category. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 03:50, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

That killed my Watchlist. #Killed not killed — billinghurst sDrewth 12:54, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: #sorrynotsorry, at least it has a bot flag :-D You want to do the honours and kill off the templates? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 16:50, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
All respective pages have text updated to reflect dropdown field in Index: page. Templates removed. I will let you tell the community of your great progress. — billinghurst sDrewth 05:40, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Could you review a proposal?[edit]

I’ve been working on a proposal to improve the tooltip system used on wiki source. My draft proposal is at user:Languageseeker/popup. I was wondering if you could review the feasibility/desirability/clarity of my proposal. Languageseeker (talk) 18:10, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: I understand where you are coming from. I don't really have the bandwidth to deal with this in detail, but your proposal probably needs to focus a bit more on how you plan to implement this rather than just what the problem is. Immediate technical queries I have with it as written:
  • "The new system would use css popups": What is a CSS popup? CSS has no innate concept of a popup, since that's structural data, not stylistic. Probably a fully-fledged system would use some kind of rich UI element like OOUI when possible (or maybe it can just be done with mw:Reference_Tooltips right now).
  • E-readers: not many solutions will work on e-readers since the baseline is a very (very) basic environment and you may not even have a touchscreen, let alone a mouse. Probably the best you can realistically hope for is on-the-fly conversion to footnotes by the exporter. Footnotes generally are supported OK (and use the right epub hinting). Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 20:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
I was thinking about using something like these two examples [3] [4]. So, it would use CSS to control the display of the popup and how the text is stylized. In this way, these options can be overwritten on a per-text basis. As for ereaders, it would require additional engineering to convert these popups which I don't plan on doing. Thoughts? Languageseeker (talk) 20:51, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
That's a very very rudimentary popup system. MediaWiki includes OOUI, so probably something along the lines of mw:Reference_Tooltips is more practical than a full-custom solution? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 21:04, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

talk archives[edit]

To note that your talk archives are somewhat hidden. I have modified {{archives}} to have an automated year function which should assist you if interested. — billinghurst sDrewth 05:26, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Whoops, quite right Yes check.svg Done . I wasn't sure how to integrate "Archive 1/2" with auto year, so I gave up and did the easy thing. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 13:25, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

upgrades to the index form[edit]

The form for the index page prefills in information from the book template. When I move the information to wikidata, the form shows up empty.

So, a nice upgrade is to have it pull from wikidata if it exists.

Everything I know about pulling information from wikidata, I learned here, at the author template. It is so easy.

If I had a computer, I would make a citation tool that would make the publication listings at the author pages.

On a different matter, I have a question about a template at commons. The template gave me errors, but it seemed to work. I was wondering if you could look at it and tell me if it is rendering nicely for you as well. It is in use for volumes of things there commons:Category:Bentley's Miscellany, Vol. 1 for one.

Thanks.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 19:11, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

It can be done, but it'll be a little bit of work to get it done. There aren't many files like that currently, so for now it's not a high priority to me. I'll get to it one day, unless someone else does first.
I don't know what template issue you are referring to, but the page files there seem to at least not have errors. E.g. File:Bentley's Miscellany, Vol. 1-0279.jpg looks OK. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 19:46, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
I was wondering about the volume navigation.
I was very unhappy about an exchange I had at the commons. You should read it carefully and have your own opinion or not of it commons:User_talk:Languageseeker#pdf,_djvu_and_jp2. It wasn't just my words there. I know how I would fix the bot, but I don't like software that does this.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 19:58, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
The navbar template appears functional? I'm not seeing any errors.
I don't know what about that conversion could make you "very unhappy". Regardless, the IA-Upload bot has been modified to only warn if the same identifier has been uploaded before (phab:T269518). I don't like software that does this - I don't know what you mean by that: If you don't like IA-Upload, don't use it? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 20:27, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
In the exchange on that talk page, I read your welcome to me when you were "ready to export" texts here and something I said after that during the DP f2 days. These words were delivered back to me and way out of context in an automated sort of way. I don't like that kind of software. Liza is so late 90s....
I like IAUpload, enough to have learned some of its ways and foibles and I am both sad and happy it is being fixed. I kind of want to cuss or append everything that I say on a talk page with something about not liking chat mining now.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 21:40, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about, as far as I can tell LanguageSeeker was being helpful and I'm fairly sure they're not a chat bot. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 22:02, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Wanna take it for a spin?[edit]

Whenever you have a moment, could you take this for a spin to check that I haven't massively borked something before we replace MediaWiki:Gadget-ocr.js? Other thoughts and feedback welcome too, of course, should you feel inclined. Xover (talk) 15:11, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

@Xover: not flushed with time right now, but I'll try. First impression: not sure it's working for hOCR - I get the "hOCR complete" popup but nothing happens in the text box. I think $('#wpTextbox1').value should be $('#wpTextbox1').val() (or cut out jQuery and do document.getElementById("wpTextbox1").value = ...).
Also probably need to steal from be inspired by the Google OCR JS and add $( "a[rel='wsOcr1']" ).css("width", "45px"); around line 95 to fit the wider button icon. Unless the Wikieditor config hook has a CSS field I don't know about. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 15:54, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Fixed. --Xover (talk) 10:02, 24 April 2021 (UTC)


@Xover: As an aside since this is adding buttons, with the "2017" editor now 4 years overdue, do you have any idea what's going on there? Is there anything we should be doing to get ready for an eventual change-over? It doesn't seem to share the configuration hook with the 2010 editor. As usual, there's naff-all in the way of documentation for the new shiny. I don't personally use it and found it incredibly annoying when I tried it, but there's a few tagged edits around, so some people must like it (or they don't know they can turn it off!). Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 16:14, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

You mean the wikitext mode of the Visual Editor, I presume? There's actually been some movement on that just recently, triggered by CommTech's use of Parsoid for ws-export, in that the VE team has apparently now given this enough thought that they've concluded they need a Parsoid-native version of ProofreadPage to make this work. I think that opens the possibility that they'll give it some attention eventually. But the bad news is that I don't think our use case is even on their radar, so all the docs and exposed functionality assume you're a core MW dev employed by the WMF. It is definitely possible to hook into VE, both visual mode and wikitext mode, in all sorts of ways, but I've found jack-all that's usable for Gadget or user script developers. Which reminds me… no, on second thought, I'll have to dig up some links for that rant. Later. --Xover (talk) 16:41, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
PRP and Parsoid came up in phab:T274654#6946964 and resulted in phab:T278481.
The other links I wanted to dump were mw:ResourceLoader/ES6 and T237688, T178356, and T75714. The long and short of which is… MW and the WMF are now feeling the pain of not using ES6 so much that they're willing to drop Grade A support for IE11 and start requiring it for new core features, but have not as yet given any priority or allocated resources to developing the necessary validator for end-user accessible code (like gadgets) to be able to use ES6. This is kinda concerning since Krinkle, who as they mention in one of the comments is the most likely person to do the work, jokingly estimates it won't get done until 2030. I'm not sure how to approach that because, as they say, it isn't a trivial job, and it's hard to point at anything ES3 makes actually "impossible" or that ES6 suddenly makes possible; it's more the same kind of pain that leads the WMF itself to want to move the bar.
And speaking of the utter neglect of Gadget coders… Are you familiar with Vue at all? I've never really looked at it but from a quick peak it looks to exist for / appeal to 1) people who are caught up in the now-fashionable "let's all dump on jQuery" fad, 2) people who are religiously convinced React is the light and the truth, solves all problems, brings world peace, and is therefore the one true way, and 3) people with a genuine need to build full blown applications. What I am not seeing is a library of pre-made UI widgets ala jQuery UI—for which OOUI was already a hideously complex replacement—or anything else that would help us make robust, functional, consistent gadgets with modern and user friendly UI. Sigh. --Xover (talk) 11:42, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
Oh good, we're on the same page. The total neglect of Gadget coders is really quite frustrating. There are AFAIK, a grand total of zero documents explaining best practices for gadgets (specifically: configuration, deployment and code sharing), and you get short shrift in chat channels for asking. The OOUI help pages are deserts for answers (and still have the wrong IRC link on them, where you get an earful for being in the wrong channel). The OOUI "manual" is hilariously short on use cases. and I'm still short of a tab-completing selection box that actually reduces keystrokes for finding something (for User:Inductiveload/quick access.js, I had to roll my own).
I did ask for a way to at least ask ResourceLoader to load specific deps locally (phab:T278304) because otherwise you can't really test "JS libraries" without finding and disabling all other clients of the library. If the core site JS uses such a library, that's not very practical. "Test it on a local wiki" was the answer given. I'm working on a workaround but it's fugly (think web server which regexes JS on the fly ugly).
RE Vue, I have no idea WTH is happening, or if there's anything useable for Gadgeteers, if there ever will be, or even if that's planned. I am vaguely planning to use Vue for a future Toolforge thing just so I'm not totally blindsided when it comes along (but Vue + Bootstrap, since I have no earthly clue where WVUI is at, or even if one can use it for anything right now). I think the idea for Vue is that it's good an "incremental" use, so you can drop in a few Vue widgets without having to drink the whole cup of SPA koolaid. As you say, all one needs is a small library of widgets to play with. And at least it can't be much worse that OOUI in terms of verbose boilerplate needed, eh?
Anyway, if I get something working before you do, I'll let you know. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 22:23, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Wikidata requires paranoia[edit]

cf. Hans Andersen's Fairy Tales/The Top and Ball and probably a smattering of other pages, and this change. Code like this needs to be not only defensive but downright paranoid: you're dereferencing a complex datastructure that is directly end-user editable with zero input validation. Any and all levels in that datastructure may be missing or contain garbage. As I recall, the last time I ran into this issue I had to walk the tree level by level and do a nil check for every one. Xover (talk) 13:01, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

@Xover: I think (though I could well be wrong) that the datastructure isn't totally user-editable. In this case, a missing datavalue field (and a snaktype=somevalue field) means it's "unknown value"). Checking for the item datatype (wikibase-id, though if the calling code said "edition of", that's a given) and a present datavalue should be enough? (bedtime reading: Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 22:52, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
nil-checking datavalue is probably enough here, yeah (cf. below).
You're right that the whole structure isn't user-editable, but you can easily run into logical inconsistencies like a qualifier value for a property with unknown value. My main point is that in dealing with Wikidata we need to armorplate and program defensively as a rule, much more than with any other semi-structured data source. Pulling from MWs DB tables, for example, we can assume a certain level of consistency because it's enforced on input by the software in a high-level UI. Wikidata barely validates syntax, much less any kind of real consistency, and at the same time let end users change data in what is essentially the "database" layer. It's kinda scary. (remind me to rant about semantics and information modelling some day; some day you have lots and lots of free time…)
In any case, I dug up the previous instance I was thinking of: Armoring against bad data on Wikidata. It's been a while, but superficially it looks like a very similar type of issue, which probably means nil-checking the datavalue is the pattern to extract from this.
Oh, and that doc was useful. I've been looking for that kind of thing and have failed to find it. I think we need to start thinking about what we can do in terms of gadgets to make our WD integration better and more user friendly, without crossloading code from some dude's user space on a different language project… --Xover (talk) 08:58, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Monthly Challenge Work[edit]

I would really like to get the Monthly Challenge running in May. Since, I'm not sure that the Bookworm Bot can get started by then, I've created an alternative page for the Project Wikisource:Community collaboration/Monthly Challenge (2021)/May 2021. There's a nomination project on WS:S#Call for Nomination of Texts that has enough texts already. There are two major tasks remaining. The first involves halving the New Text Box and creating a text box for the Monthly Challenge above it similar to the one on French Wikisource. This requires an Administrator. Can you do that? The second is writing the FAQ which I plan to get done over the next few days. I'll also create a discussion on the FAQ at WS:S once they're done. Languageseeker (talk) 13:18, 24 April 2021 (UTC)


Guessing, not presuming, that you have had a look at what frWS is now doing with their Index: page template. Either way, waving it under your eyes. — billinghurst sDrewth 08:30, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: I have coveted their WD barcodes and I will eventually acquire them for our own nefarious purposes. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 22:07, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
We could probably persuade Tpt to give us a rundown of what the module does, how it fits into their larger architecture, and what the drivers were. I'm thinking the coding part of this stuff isn't so hard, it's more an issue of figuring out how it should work, what are the externally imposed limitations, etc. But then, the way WD is set up is fundamentally incompatible with the way my brain is wired, so maybe that's just me. :) --Xover (talk) 09:02, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
@Xover: I can probably figure most of it out, it's mostly a question of "what we actually want it to do" (other than bling-bling which is of course a noble aspiration). The biggest issue for me is that WD is actually not always as good as you would think/hope at the kind of bibliographic metadata we actually would want on an index page - particularly for things like volume (and that that's before we get to periodicals).
Furthermore, even if I could figure out representing sub-edition data (like volumes), there's another level to it: Index pages exist in a kind of unhappy no-man's-land between WD edition items and Commons SDC data - while the file represents the edition, the instantiation of that representation has its own properties (e.g. pagination, missing pages, scan quality, scan providence, etc etc) that can and do vary even within the same edition. This is, I think, the "Item" level of FRBR (Group 1). This is, I think, one of the primary disconnects between what WD promises it could be and what it actually is to Wikisource comes about. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 09:19, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
Now I could be wrong, however, it still relies on data population at WD, and prior to the work being done here. We have struggled to get good WD compliance here at an work/article's creation, and I know that I generally do it just the once when I have transcluded. Prime issue for me is the push from Commons to WD has no easy semi-automated tool to either push or check data. Similarly the push from our Index pages to WD is not connected. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:37, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
Well, certainly without the data being present somewhere, it's all a disaster. However, we currently have no one place we can put all the data, or even a solid idea of how to split data between Commons, WD and WS index pages in the general case. Which has lead to "some people" (i.e. me) saying "sod it" and just not bothering too much. I try to get the file metadata for scans to be reasonable, but since I don't even know what best practices are, I leave it at that for files.
For "easy" works like a single volume novel, WD can hold pretty much all of it in the work/edition structure, and only things like the pagelist need to be done at the file (or Index) level. For things in the mainspace, it's also easier, as that that generally can traverse a edition or translation of (P629) statement and suck data out of the work-level item (where things like "topic" likely reside). The "item" level of the FRBR system kind of falls away at that point, because we kind of isolate that behind the Index/Page:Mainspace division.
It's possible there's a good way to do this for a general book (e.g. a volume of a set, or a periodical issue), but I haven't been able to work it out yet. And sadly, the periodical thing especially is probably where WD can most help us deal with the enormous amount of bibliographic data represented by the contents of a periodical.
I am working on a WS -> WD item creator (working title: Wikidata Creata :-D), but it's not done (or half done) yet because writing gadgets is such a huge PITA with the tools we are given. So I'm considering doing it all in a separate web-app on Toolforge. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 11:52, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

the setting up of a journal[edit]

I checked the tables of contents. Ingoldsby goes to VOLUME 17! Honestly, I was just twiddling thumbs with Rackham. Bentley's is more like interrupting thumb twiddling by playing with a hangnail. I don't like my computer being hacked. It is (a simile is about to happen, different from string literal) like having people jump in your car and go with you, expressing opinions, making rules and interrupting -- just with their presence. When my computer didn't boot, (and when my home directory was being mounted via nfs or ntfs, they mounted it "Non Executable") it was like (simile) they decided to park my car in their garage and I don't even get to know where or who.

I am trying not to spin this one way or another. I am trying this for years! Closer to 5 years since the non-executable fiasco than 1. So, I was going to use my compromised computer and work on something that I like but don't have great cares for. Arthur Rackham. Very wonderful illustrator; his creepy is cute.

Apologies for the rant. My inkscape friend does perl. I do python. WS is lua?

I was going to start to set up Bentley's Miscellany here when I saw Wikisource:WikiProject Popular Science Monthly. I came here and ranted. They have an "engine". At data, I have separated scans & index pages from Main.

RL is calling, there is no wrong answer: journal? Yes or no.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 15:06, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I do not understand what you are saying. The first half makes no sense to me. The second half seems like you'd like to set up a periodical at WS for Bentley's?
The first step towards that is probably gathering a list of all the volumes and scans into Bentley's Miscellany. If you're going to use the Internet Archive SIM scans (which look like they are split into 3 each, TOC, content and index), that might make life a bit harder for you. I don't really have a good suggestion for a better option other than scraping the Hathi scans or checking over the Google scans at the IA (which look pretty poor). Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 15:31, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
Jumping into this conversation. I also had plans to create an page for Bentley's miscellany. In addition to the Princeton Scans, Toronto also has full color scans of some of the volumes. For the volumes on Haithi trust, is there anyway that you can batch download the Princeton Set and the Upload them to Commons without compression so that the images can easily be extracted? Languageseeker (talk) 18:31, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
The first rant here is about why I choose different things than what I really want to work on. If my words are being mined, then always including a displeasure about being hacked works for me.
I played with pulling in information from wikidata for about 20 mins, it has been a couple of years since I did this.... You can see what I got at Bentley's Miscellany. The upper portion is paste. The data calls (also edited paste) are under "pulled".
The scans are at commons commons:Category:Bentley's Miscellany. Best to change your preferences to "cats on top" there for easier navigation.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 19:13, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank You[edit]

I saw the amazing work that you did on the MC-Cover Template and I wanted to send you a quick thank you. It looks wonderful. Languageseeker (talk) 18:31, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: ...and now the listing is automagic - all you have to do is keep it topped up with works, and it'll take care of putting them in the right sections (as long as we have under about 500 active—i.e. immune or < 3 months old—works, which I think won't be an issue!). Still no way to have a page counter without a bot or similar, but at least this avoids a daily need to check statuses and risk works stagnating in the wrong sections. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 20:32, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
The page looks so beautiful. It’s more than I could have hoped for. Once we reach 500 books a month, we can make it the Weekly Challenge (hee-hee). Is there any way to see texts that have only a few pages to validate or are mostly proofread? I also want to use this as a means of finishing texts. Simply outstanding work. Languageseeker (talk) 00:43, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
@Languageseeker: Glad you like it!
Re Is there any way to see texts that have only a few pages to validate or are mostly proofread not really, this is what we need a bot or phab:T281195 for. Once the proofread percentage data is either sitting in a module (or directly available via some magic tag), we can work it into the tiles for a quick overview. Daily stats like frWS will almost certainly need a bot - I don't see that being built into the core any time soon (though it would be pretty nifty if it could).
I feel like the near-live stats are part of what drives the frWS project, without the feedback, people drift back to their own domains. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 00:51, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
I think that stats are only part of what drives users to contribute to frWS. If you look at Distributed Proofreaders, users contribute even when they only see the number of books completed every month. In my opinion, most users simply don't know what to do when they arrive on the site. Right now, we basically tell users to pick a project any project. However, most volunteers just wanted to be given a specific task. They also want to contribute to something important. So, I hope that by putting attractive texts on the Monthly Challenge, the site will grow it's user base. That is why I'm selecting texts that have broad recognition or look cool. My other hope is that by creating scan-backed copies of important works, we will attract more users to our site. Our key benefit is that we can combine scan-backed proofreading with the generation of ebooks in a way that allows for future improvement of formatting by relying heavily on templates. That's the key selling point of this site.
I also hope that by creating a Monthly Challenge, it will become easier to reach out to GLAM institutions. Most GLAM institutions simply don't have the money to proofread texts. Scanning is cheaper, but they don't want to contribute scans if they'll just grow moldy in the backpages of WS. With the Monthly Challenge, we can tell GLAM institutions that if they provide us with the scans, then we'll feature them on the Monthly Challenge and get them proofread. Right now is a great time to reach out to GLAM institutions because the demise of flash has had a devastating impact on GLAM websites. Combined with the pandemic, most GLAM institutions are choosing to either take them down or leave them broken. enWS can reach out as a new home for these scans.
On a separate technical note, I've noticed that the box containing the PoTM vanishes if the site window gets to small. Maybe, it would make sense to make sure that the PoTM and Monthly Challenge box does not vanish on small displays? Also, would it be possible to create a way to easily monitor the talk pages of all the Indexes in the Monthly Challenge to see if a user asks a question there? Languageseeker (talk) 02:52, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Re key selling point that's my view too.
Re monitoring all talk pages, this should probably be a script to add all MC index talk to your watchlist, and probably is not that hard. I'll look into it.
Re small screens, I think the reasoning is that the proofreading UI is so unwieldy on a mobile screen that there's not much point directing mobile users to working spaces anyway. I think we could at least advertise a bit, once we have some progress to advertise, but it'll need some thought to make it useful/interesting to mobile users. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 22:52, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
For the small screens, I meant when you resize your desktop internet window, the PoTM box vanishes. On the frWS, it gets moved to the bottom in a long column, while on the enWS it simply vanishes. I can understand why it's ommited on mobile, but, on desktops, you can resize the window. Languageseeker (talk) 02:59, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Oh yeah, good point. We actually can target the mobile front page differently. I'll take a look (at some point). Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 11:40, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Take your time. I was also thinking that it might be good to add some stats to the front page template like the French do. It can go between the line about the number of works and the sprint listings. Column 1 Mission 2000

Column 2 Results of 2021 : May 2021 (Total Pages validated or proofread) (percentage of 2000) ((daily change) pages)

Thoughts? Languageseeker (talk) 12:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

This should be possible once we have a few stats to use. Year-to-date stats will obviously only make sense from next month, and total-to-date only from next January. The whole stats system still needs a bit more tweaking before it becomes a hands-off automatic thing (for a start, moving to a Toolforge backend).
On the front-end, feel free to mock it up at {{Collaboration/MC/sandbox}} using fake figures and I can use that as inspiration when I have a suitable stats-processing function to wire up to it. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:25, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done Languageseeker (talk) 15:30, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
I would be interested in stats on click-throughs to the sub-pages of works that are expected to be read-through. Or clicks from wikipedias to their little source sisters. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 15:16, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
We can get pageview data for pages via {{annual readership}}, but figuring out how users get to our pages and how they traverse them would possibly start running into issues with data collection fairly quickly (at least, you'd have to be very careful the data is fully anonymous, and even then I'm not sure of the rules on WMF sites). Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 20:39, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

9 years isn't even the record...[edit]

You may like to be aware of phab:T41510, both for yourself and if anyone else runs into it. There are workarounds through the API, asking a dev to clear it, etc. should that be needed. Xover (talk) 18:47, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Dezoomify Question[edit]

I'm trying to use dezoominfy to get the images off The Jane Austen Manuscript website that are in the PD. However, I get the following error

ERROR: Could not open ImageProperties.xml (<urlopen error [SSL: CERTIFICATE_VERIFY_FAILED] certificate verify failed: unable to get local issuer certificate (_ssl.c:1123)>).


Are you familiar with the program or know how to fix this error? Languageseeker (talk) 20:29, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: It's been a long time since I used it. works, which suggests dezoomify-rs would work too? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 22:55, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks. I tried -rs and it didn't work. I guess that I might have to do it image by image through the web interface. Languageseeker (talk) 02:57, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Add link to source on Index Pages[edit]

One thing that I noticed on frWS that would be helpful here was links to the original source on the Index page. Perhaps, we could import the links from Commons with the other metadata? This makes it much easier to fetch the full resolution images from IA. Languageseeker (talk) 04:39, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

We could do this, but it's one more thing to keep in line. It's possible that some kind of Commons SDC or Wikidata (probably via Wikisource index page (P1957)) might be more sensible, and building out an Index page SDC/WD infrastructure might be more sensible. Though I am personally hazy on when to use SDC and when to use WD. There's also User:Inductiveload/jump to file which will link you directly to the source file or hi-res JPG at the IA (or Hathi, or some others), and also give you the option of loading a high-res image into the ProofreadPage pane for when the scan thumbnail is a bit rubbish (PDFs are especially bad at this). Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 23:08, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
I see. The user script is great. Would there be anyway to get it to upload the high-resolution image to Commons? I think that high-resolution images really come into play when trying to upload better quality images. Languageseeker (talk) 00:33, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
@Languageseeker: A WS-optimised uploader is on my middle-term list, but it won't (directly) be part of this script (though the script might direct you to a prefilled upload form). Uploading raw originals will be part of that.
In any case, the upstream original isn't that useful at WS in the general case, because it is usually needs non-trival processing to remove the paper colour and tidy up defects. It's nice to have the original at Commons, but it's not something we in general will present to readers. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 18:59, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Stats color for 100 to 200 range[edit]

There’s a highlight color for >100 and one for <200. Could you add one for between 100 and 200? Languageseeker (talk) 00:17, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

My thinking is that highlighting isn't highlighting if everything is highlighted. The idea is only to call out things that have special meaning: falling short of a "minimum" level (bad) or exceeding some "maximum expected" level (good). Obviously, we don't yet have a good handle on our expected levels so 100/200 are made-up thresholds.
On that note, if we start hitting 200 per day on a regular basis, we should bump the limits so that we 1) keep the hounds snapping at heels by raising the "lower" bar and 2) raise the upper bar so we have a meaningful "this day was exceptionally good" signal rather than allow the whole table to turn green. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 19:05, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Monthly Challenge - volume's image[edit]

Hello. Could you tell how to change on Monthly Challenge's page The French Revolution (Volume 1)'s cover from 5 to 9 (as index displays)? I can't figure out how to do it. Ratte (talk) 08:08, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ratte: Sure: like this (at Module:Monthly Challenge/data/2021). It's slightly wierd, but it's the only way I can make it so that that MC grid can update automatically without needing a bot to run constantly to keep it up to date. I will be writing some central docs on how to work the MC infrastructure once I'm sure it does actually work (it's looking "OK" so far)! Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 08:31, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you! Ratte (talk) 08:42, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

New WMF toy in testing[edit]

Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures, enable "Discussion tools". Beside being really convenient both for replies and new threads, it eliminates a whole lot of "woops, forgot to sign" issues. I mention this for no particular reason. At all. Just completely randomly. :) Xover (talk) 08:35, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

@Xover: Gosh, a useful feature in the Beta section! ^_^ Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 08:50, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
I know. Shocking, isn't it? :) Xover (talk) 09:24, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Transclusion Question[edit]

Can you take a look at The Works of H. G. Wells (Atlantic Edition)/Volume 1/The Time Machine/Chapter 1 and see why Chapter 2 is being included? Languageseeker (talk) 19:47, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: sure - the problem was that tosection is inclusive. Thus you needed a TM1 section to use as the tosection parameter. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 22:06, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Monthly Challenge Sprint[edit]

Would you mind switching over the sprint to Science? Languageseeker (talk) 20:59, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: done. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 21:04, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

on page numbers[edit]

You mentioned these recently and I wanted to blather on about them, I think they are a crucial addition to the site. I try to show by example, but don't remember where they are: this is what I would have shown, The year's at the spring, which I still think works; the other being an original (ie printed, analog) index conveniently linked by pages numbers (not hundreds of anchors). Hope this was of interest. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 21:38, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

@Cygnis insignis: are you meaning the toggles in the left toolbar in the "Display Options" section? — billinghurst sDrewth 01:59, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
@Cygnis insignis: thanks for the note. I do wonder about linking only page numbers because it seems counter-intuitive to me - it "feels" like they're going to take me to the Page NS, though I imagine a user unfamiliar with the site wouldn't have that feeling.
More importantly (to me): on export this means the TOC text is not clickable (and the user agent may not make it clear where the link is):
Wikisource export - TOC linked by page numbers in content TOC.png
Furthermore, the hint to the export tooling of the name for the entry in the "EPUB TOC" (the one you get when you "view book structure", as opposed to the one in the "content", which replicates the original) is the link text, so using the page number makes it somewhat unclear what is going on:
Wikisource export - TOC linked by page numbers in epub TOC.png
Sorry to be such an export bore! Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 06:52, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
I hadn't given that much consideration, although I also think that is important I hadn't expected the problems you outline. I suppose there are many potential hazards. I'll go off and learn about what's going on with EPUB, etc, maybe pick this thread up again when I better understand the export side of things. Thanks for the info, and for the couple of times you helped solve a problem recently (kept forgetting to say "that worked a treat, cheers) Have a good one. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 07:23, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
Oh, in indexes. user:Phe did quite a string of those for me back in the year, eg. The Elizabethan People/Index. Do we need to do anything different with them for export? — billinghurst sDrewth 12:14, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: no, that works fine - the #XXX links work just fine in the EPUB (and they make sense to me as the clickables, since one index entry can have n pages). It's the TOC where the exporter is actually using the link text to construct its own idea of what the entries in the document's structure are called. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 12:37, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Setup a nude class for Template:authority/link and Template:authority/lkpl[edit]

Hi. As is possible with I would like to get some css class(es) on these links so I can visually track the use of these links in works (per User:Billinghurst/common.css). And you know that extended css is not my strength so would you mind doing that? Thanks. — billinghurst sDrewth 01:57, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: They now have ws-authlink and ws-authlkpl classes respectively. I haven't done per-field classes like {{article link}} because it's quite a bit of faffing in template mode (vs module mode) and doesn't have an immediate use. At least now, you can do
.ws-authlink, .ws-authlkpl { color: green; }
or whatever other style tickles your fancy. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 06:38, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, I am hoping that it is useful for visual link check diagnostics. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:16, 11 May 2021 (UTC)


Undertaking this should not be necessary for autopatrolled users, especially where it has been asked on their user talk page repeatedly. — billinghurst sDrewth 14:32, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: What's wrong with how it was before? Those four lines are not four paragraphs, they're a single "semantic" line with manual breaks, so <br/> is valid? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:39, 11 May 2021 (UTC)