User talk:Londonjackbooks/Archive 2009/addendum
The following discussion is closed and will soon be archived:
Moved generically to Author:Florence Earle Coates, page deleted by (text arrangement) author request. ResScholar (talk) 06:52, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
This is a modern anthology of public domain works. I don't know that we have permission to use it; it hasn't been properly annotated or sent to OTRS, but given the behavior of the person adding it, I suspect that they are doing it with the permission of the editor and could give us clear permission. While the contents are acceptable, the anthology itself is a self-published artistic work that shouldn't be here.--Prosfilaes (talk) 17:06, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- Unless clear permission that all of the anthology is in public domainDelete as anthology in main namespace. That said, the anthology it could be similarly compiled as such in Author: namespace. Also there is probably not the requirement for the blatant push on each page towards the author's project. Put it on the Author: namespace page, and leave it at that? -- billinghurst (talk) 21:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I would appreciate direction here. I am the compiler/self-publisher of this work. The pamphlet has been assigned an ISBN number via Bowker; the hard-copy pamphlet itself is protected under general copyright because of its unique organization and formatting (font, etc.), but the poems and quotations themselves are public domain material and are eligible for listing at Wikisource -- unless I am in err. Please feel free to correct me on this! Londonjackbooks (talk) 22:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
When I began my research on this poet, I was hard-pressed to find any information online about her. What information I have been able to compile, I have listed on my website, as well as on the Wikipedia pages. If it appears that I have made a "blatant push" toward my informational website, it is because it is the only website with any comprehensive information about the poet... Which is why I have chosen to "spread the wealth" on Wikipedia and her sister sites. Although I am new to Wikipedia, I have made a great effort to make sure I add information and sources responsibly, and would like to fully cooperate with the rules of your site. Thank You, Londonjackbooks (talk) 22:49, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- I see no problems with keeping this. Individual contents all appear to easily qualify for inclusion. A simple listing of the contents of an anthology is descriptive information rather than a creative work, and as such not copyrightable. Artistic presentation and organization, new illustrations, biographical notes, etc. could be copyright protected, but are not essential to what we do here. Eclecticology - the offended (talk) 06:54, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- An anthology does have a collection copyright; you can not produce a new anthology with the same works in the same order. More over, while the individual contents all appear to easily qualify for inclusion, I have the same concerns about the anthology itself as motivated the inclusion principle; we're not a place for self-published material. The description of the anthology is as irrelevant as the description of any self-published work.--Prosfilaes (talk) 17:58, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Self-publishing is a separate issue from copyright, so let's avoid conflating the two. Two anthologies with the same works in the same order can be legally published as long as one is not derived from the other; it is possible if two editors choose the same selection and ordering criteria. Londonjackbooks's primary selection criterion appears directed at including all of her Coates's works. This kind of careful effort takes time. For a database site such as Wikisource ordering is a meaningless concept. Even where order would be relevant a common predictable order such as alphabetical or chronological would not be copyrightable. It's dismissive to say that a description of an anthology is irrelevant. The description is on the other side of the w:Idea-expression divide from the anthology itself. Eclecticology - the offended (talk) 22:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- With all respect, Florence Earle Coates also "self-published" her 16-page pamphlet, Pro Patria (1917). Is that work also irrelevant here? Or does it carry more weight since it is historical?... I do understand your "collection [order] copyright" argument... Here is my proposed solution: I will list the name only of the collection in the "works" section, but will do so without the brackets ([[ ]]); i.e., without the link to the work details... Since most of the poems contained in the collection are "fugitive verse," I will list them under the "fugitive verse" heading in the order that they appeared in the magazines, etc. That should satisfy both the "order copyright" issue as well as the "irrelevancy" issue (although I disagree with the latter argument). Hope this helps... Please continue to provide feedback! Sincerely, Londonjackbooks (talk) 20:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- An anthology does have a collection copyright; you can not produce a new anthology with the same works in the same order. More over, while the individual contents all appear to easily qualify for inclusion, I have the same concerns about the anthology itself as motivated the inclusion principle; we're not a place for self-published material. The description of the anthology is as irrelevant as the description of any self-published work.--Prosfilaes (talk) 17:58, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- WS:WWI specifically includes works published before 1923, whether self-published or not. Most projects like ours tend to be a lot more generous about the inclusion rules for older works than newer works, since older works don't have the vanity issues new self-published works tend to suffer from.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:44, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- No "vanity issues" here! I have given away more hard copies than I can ever expect to sell (zero so far!)... After I discovered the contents of the original pamphlet, Pro Patria (1917), and later Mrs. Coates' subsequent fugitive verse on the war, I wanted to give the fugitive verse a "home" of sorts to serve as a complement to Pro Patria--to complete the story... I have no problem if the site chooses deletion of Victi--I am happy just to be able to contribute Mrs. Coates' works and verse for others who may appreciate her poetry as I have! I am learning much here!Londonjackbooks (talk) 03:44, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- WS:WWI specifically includes works published before 1923, whether self-published or not. Most projects like ours tend to be a lot more generous about the inclusion rules for older works than newer works, since older works don't have the vanity issues new self-published works tend to suffer from.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:44, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Keep. Any item should be accessioned with proper attribution. A note on the source in the header or on the talk via {{Edition}} is best practice. From an electicological perspective, sub-paging the works to the title would allow this detail to be noted once, eg. Victi Resurgunt/Serbia. An even better contribution would be if the Londonjackbooks provide the 'wealth' of transcriptions from the original publications, with annotation given as above. Cygnis insignis (talk) 20:15, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Electicological??? :-P I don't think that sub-paging would solve the problem. A typical anthology is a collection of works which have all or mostly all been previously published in separate contexts. They are a derived source. We probably need a broader discussion about the position of anthologies in the hierarchy of any author's work. Eclecticology - the offended (talk) 22:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Apologies, I meant to type eclecticological :) Cygnis insignis (talk) 12:24, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- I do plan to more completely expand the 'wealth' of info. in the days ahead... It is slow-going being new to the formatting, etc. Thank you for the suggestions. Londonjackbooks (talk) 20:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- You're doing fine. Eclecticology - the offended (talk) 22:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Please allow me to add that removing the wikilink to the collection on the author page and letting the collection "float" without any link referring to it on any different page is not a satisfactory solution. If the work has an ISBN number, it's a published work and can be licensed. I don't think anyone here cares if Londonjackbooks is deciding to retain the copyright on the typesetting arrangement. In essence it would be a case of "some rights reserved". By the same token if you are adding more source info to your proposed public domain wikisource edition that's not a copyright concern either. I think the consequence of what Eclecticology was saying about Londonjackbooks anthology ordering being the result of "careful effort" is therefore that Londonjackbooks should either issue a license release of the ordering of the anthology, or remove the anthology page and contribute the poem titles in a generic manner on the author page, with any productive originality involved being automatically licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License 3.0. ResScholar (talk) 06:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- Anyone with the authority/ability to do so may permanently delete the Victi Resurgunt (2009)page... I have already listed the titles chronologically (as published) under "Fugitive verse" on the author page, and feel that is sufficient! Much thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 02:24, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you for patiently and considerately addressing our sometimes all-too-cumbersome licensing requirements. ResScholar (talk) 06:52, 10 November 2009 (UTC)