Index talk:Grimm's Fairy Tales.djvu

Formatting

I am considering going through this text (from the beginning) to help proofread/standardize the formatting. One question so far: How should title pages such as these be formatted? It is not currently consistent within the text.

Feel free to take over this index, I only did it for the versions and translations modelling, and, I think, the idea was to back existing texts with a scan. I didn't much like these versions, and did a poor job of what I have done...

OK. I might play around with formatting, etc., but let me know if you ever object to anything... My goal is to keep things consistent, however. Londonjackbooks (talk) 20:43, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Images

Do you have images waiting in the wings or do you add them as you go (I am aware of the Commons Cat page)? I wouldn't mind adding some images, but don't want to create images that you have already worked on, but perhaps just haven't uploaded to Commons yet. Londonjackbooks (talk) 13:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I had resolved to finish this for the reasons given above, and a kind of penance. Hesperian has already uploaded the high quality images, found in templates on pages marked 'problematic'. I usually download the jp2 files, since lost, H. has sourced the raw scan data. I usally add images as I go along, but if you keep to the naming scheme then you will bump into 'file exists' for any that are already in that category...

I noted some images are tagged with actual page numbers, and some with DJVU page numbers. I'll try to figure out what the standard is before I upload any more (I have created one so far). Thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 20:48, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

@Cygnis insignis: Finished adding images; will continue proofreading. Do you approve of image layout (frontispiece, etc.) in Main? I thought the title page illustration should be displayed somehow as part of the text, despite perforation damage. Also, should I add wikilinks to the list of illustrations? Lastly, I guess you have notes on [other] versions info for titles? or has that been exhausted already? Thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 10:26, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

If the front matter is untidy it can be sub-paged as a previous section; I usually aim to get the title page near the top, so /front_matter is anything before that, The ToC hopefully spills out below that, along with any prefatory material; as a reader I don't like that being sliced into little sections. I would link through the page number in the list of illustrations. I had or have a quick and dirty list of the Grimm tales in main on talk page somewhere, titles are amended with strike through when they have been sub-paged to their versions (many of older pages are attributed to "Pauli" or unsourced). You will notice that the 2 vol Hunt edition will have another version of every story here, though the titles and content might be quite different. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 13:26, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Just looked at your neat solution. I managed to get a double page spread to do something similar in main, but this allows a transcription of the second description. V. clever London, CYGNIS INSIGNIS 13:37, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Re front matter: I just followed your lead; can't take credit. Re list of Grimm tales/versions: all I could find were lists on this page, but nothing with strike throughs... I vaguely remember you editing such a page shortly after you came back to WS, but it was for different tales/author... Author talk:Hans Christian Andersen it was. I'll tackle the linking of images. Londonjackbooks (talk) 13:54, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Re removing page color: I think conversion to BW would take away from the illustrations; besides this, I think it would also accentuate (negatively) the perforations even more, don't you think? Londonjackbooks (talk) 14:40, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Not sure I want to take credit for the example you pointed out, a mess that needs fixing. Ta for finding that talk page, and it occurred to me later that I had got muddled about authors; you will encounter the same problems though, so I hope it was helpful in some way. I tried adjusting the colour levels on the frontispieces, hoping to keep the duotone and drop the page colour; maybe it can be done, but my results were horrible. Looking forward to seeing how this all turns out, CYGNIS INSIGNIS 18:49, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Unless I get a sudden burst of inspiration, I don't think much will change from the current MS layout. I may tweak some formatting/layout a bit. I didn't understand what you meant above by not liking something "being sliced into little sections". What part of the MS layout were you referring to? Please don't ever hesitate to give recommendations/criticism if you have a different vision for the work. Thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 21:18, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

P.S. I tried tinkering with the Briar Rose recto/verso images. I started from scratch, merged the images together to match sizes, flattened them as one image, and then separated them—similarly as I had done with the frontispieces. They should be similarly aligned/sized, but are not. Londonjackbooks (talk) 11:05, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

I was just blathering about how I would decide to slice sections in general, I hadn't looked at what you had done; it seems fine. My small sections moan is because I was recently using a text here to write something, and kept having to go back and forth between some short stories, and the intro, preface and title page. Gutenberg spill out the whole book on one page, which is much more convenient for reading and research than lots of little pages of text. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 17:08, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

They look a lot better, maybe a slightly closer crop on the left image will help the alignment. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 17:08, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Took your advice with cropping. It has helped, thanks! Londonjackbooks (talk) 18:10, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Text layer

I have a better text layer. I often download these from the source, because, for example, they contain paragraph breaks and don't have quotation marks rendered as code. Once these are in a good text editor you can find patterns to change in the whole file. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 14:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Version/translations notes

• The Twelve Brothers

• The Fisherman and His Wife
• Grimm's Household Tales, Volume 1/The Fisherman and His Wife

I remembered that the "alternate version" in the second item is a duplicate of the third (Hunt, 1884). CYGNIS INSIGNIS 14:42, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I haven't really looked closely into things yet, am just visiting what has already been done to get a better perspective. My first instinct is to convert the second item into a versions or translations page since it is unindexed/unsourced. I am sure I will have questions in the future, especially about using translations vice versions pages. I don't want to make a mess of things. More on this later. Thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 15:37, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

@Cygnis insignis: OK. Some questions/comments (reference title list below):

1. Re your comment above (the 2 vol Hunt edition will have another version of every story here, though the titles and content might be quite different): I am not familiar enough with Grimm's stories to know which titles those might be. Below there is a section of titles (the ones that link to the Edwardes' tales) that do not resemble titling in the Hunt volumes. You might be more familiar with titling/content and be able to match tales/titles.

2. Titles that have been struck already have versions pages.

3. See "The Wishing Table, & etc." and "Thumbling, & etc." entries below for questions.

4. Should I convert every "unindexed/unsourced text" page into a versions page? done

I think I have a handle on the rest; let me know if I am missing any tasks.

Thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 23:47, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

List of Edwardes titles

Sorted by to-do

The Wishing Table, The Gold Ass, and The Cudgel (links to Edwardes tale) Same story as Hunt's The Wishing-Table, the Gold-Ass, and the Cudgel in the Sack?
Thumbling the Dwarf and Thumbling the Giant (links to Edwardes tale; same as any of Hunt's Thumbling tales?) "Der junge Riese"

The following titles do not resemble titles in the Hunt volumes:
Fritz and his Friends (links to Edwardes tale) "Die treuen Thiere" (roughly, The Loyal Animals)
The Elfin Grove (links to Edwardes tale)
The Nose-Tree (links to Edwardes tale)
The Man in the Bag (links to Edwardes tale) "Die Rübe"
Karl Katz (links to Edwardes tale)
The Bear and the Skrattel (links to Edwardes tale)
Snow-Drop (links to Edwardes tale) "Snee-wittchen"
The Four Crafts-Men (links to Edwardes tale)
The Water Fairy (links to Edwardes tale)
The Three Crows (links to Edwardes tale) "Die Krähen"
The Elves and the Cobbler (links to Edwardes tale) Reference: The Elves and the Shoemaker and The Elves
Cherry the Frog-Bride (links to Edwardes tale) 'This is a translation of "Das Märchen von der Padde," from Büsching's Volks-Sagen: changing the heroine from "Petersilie" (Parsley) into Cherry.'
The Dancing Shoes (links to Edwardes tale) "Die zertanzten Schuhe"
Giant Golden-Beard (links to Edwardes tale)
Pee-Wit (links to Edwardes tale) "Kibitz"
Donkey-Wort (links to Edwardes tale) "Krautesel"

The Twelve Brothers (translations page)
Briar Rose (versions page)
The Raven The Raven (Grimm) (versions page)
Bearskin (versions page)
The Robber Bridegroom (versions page)
Ashputtel (redirects to Cinderella versions page)
The Three Spinning Fairies (redirects to The Three Spinners versions page)
Rumpel-Stilts-Ken (redirects to Rumpelstiltskin versions page)
Madam Holle Mother Holle (versions page)
The Goose Girl (redirects to The Goose-Girl versions page)
King Grizzle-Beard (redirects to King Thrushbeard versions page)
The Forbidden Room (redirects to Fitcher's Bird versions page)
The Changeling The Changeling (Grimm) (redirects to The Elves versions page)
Cat-skin (redirects to Catskin versions page)
The Frog-Prince The Frog-prince (links to The Frog-King, or Iron Henry versions page)
The King of the Golden Mountain (versions page)
The Golden Goose (links to Edwardes tale; also a Hunt title)
The Fisherman and his Wife The Fisherman and His Wife (links to unindexed/unsourced text) Hunt Vol 1
Jorinda and Jorindel (links to unindexed/unsourced text) Hunt Vol 1 as "Jorinda and Joringel"
The Water of Life (links to unindexed/unsourced text) Hunt Vol 2
The Blue Light (links to unindexed/unsourced text) Hunt Vol 2
The Two Brothers (links to unindexed/unsourced text)
The Mouse, the Bird, and the Sausage (need v. page; currently links to Hunt tale)
Hans in Luck (disambiguation page; should be versions page)
Tom Thumb (disambiguation page; need v. page as well?)
The Juniper Tree The Juniper-Tree (disambiguation pg.; should be a versions page?; see also The Juniper-Tree (Grimm/Edwardes) unindexed/unsourced)
The Brave Little Tailor (redirects to The Valiant Little Tailor; Edwardes' page needs to be added to versions page; also have The Brave Little Tailor (Lang))
Hansel and Grethel (redirects to Hänsel and Gretel translation page; need to fix/Edwardes' link in t. page, etc.)
The Fox's Brush (links to Edwardes tale) "Der Goldene Vogel" (The Golden Bird)
The Jew in the Bush (redirected to The Jew among Thorns)
Lily and the Lion (links to Edwardes tale) "Das singende springende Löweneckerchen" (The Singing, Soaring Lark)

Don't forget to check 'what links here', which will show any I have already created versions pages for. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 12:48, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I think I have accounted for your versions pages already created... Do you mean to check here? Thanks, Londonjackbooks (talk) 13:34, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Versions guide

{{Versions|
|title=Tale
|author=| override_author = {{al|Jacob Grimm}} and {{al|Wilhelm Grimm}}}} 

* "[[Grimm's Household Tales, Volume 1/Tale|Tale]]" in ''[[Grimm's Household Tales, Volume 1|Grimm's Household Tales]]'' Volume 1 (1884). [[Author:Margaret Hunt|Hunt, Margaret]], ''transl.''
* "[[Grimm's Household Tales, Volume 2/Tale|Tale]]" in ''[[Grimm's Household Tales, Volume 2|Grimm's Household Tales]]'' Volume 2 (1884). [[Author:Margaret Hunt|Hunt, Margaret]], ''transl.''
* "[[Grimm's Household Tales (Edwardes)/Tale|Tale]]" in ''[[Grimm's Household Tales (Edwardes)|Grimm's Household Tales]]'' (1912). [[Author:Marian Edwardes|Edwardes, Marian]] and [[Author:Edgar Taylor|Taylor, Edgar]], ''transl.'' [[Author:Robert Anning Bell|Bell, R. Anning]], ''illus.''

Karl Katz

This is not an original fairy tale by the Grimm Brothers. [1] It is a legend from the Kyffhäuser district, originally called the The Goatherd and was published in 1800 by Johann Karl Christoph Nachtigal aka Otmar in the book Volkssagen (folk tales). --Gunnar.Kaestle (talk) 23:03, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @Gunnar.Kaestle. I've added it along with other translations of the story to the translations page for Der Ziegenhirt. --Yodin^T 22:29, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Non-Taylor translations

Most of the stories are adapted from Edgar Taylor (and David Jardine)'s German Popular Stories translations (via Taylor's revised translations in Gammer Grethel, which also included one new story, "The Bear and the Skrattel"), but not all. Might be possible to trace whether Edwardes translated these from scratch, or if they're also based on previous translations, and if so, note who the original translators were.

• The Wishing Table, The Gold Ass, and The Cudgel
• The Twelve Brothers
• The Raven
• Bearskin
• The Three Spinning Fairies
• The Forbidden Room
• The Changeling
• The Water Fairy
• The Two Brothers

Edwardes also omitted some Taylor translations (perhaps not in Gammer Grethel):

• The Travelling Musicians, or The Waits of Bremen
• The Tom-Tit and the Bear
• The Grateful Beasts
• The Waggish Musician
• The Queen Bee
• The Dog and the Sparrow
• Frederick and Catherine
• The Three Children of Fortune
• The Adventures of Chanticleer and Partlet
• Old Sultan
• Mrs. Fox
• Hansel and Grettel
• The Fox and the Horse
• Faithful John
• Hans and his Wife Grettel
• The Five Servants
• The Three Sluggards
• The Seven Ravens

Remaining questions:

• Is "The Water Fairy" The Water Nixie? If so, can be added to Grimm's Household Tales, as a translations page with Hunt's translation (assuming she did one)
  • This is now correctly listed at The Nix of the Mill-Pond
• Is "Hansel and Grethel" purely from the same sources Taylor's "Roland and May-Bird"? It seems to be an expanded version if so, with additional paragraphs at the end: are these from the same three stories?

--Yodin^T 22:27, 21 September 2023 (UTC)