Index talk:Mars - Lowell.djvu

2nd edition

What's up with using {{gap}} for paragraphs? --Spangineer^wp (háblame) 15:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Some newer users got the impression it ought to be added, one I discussed it with agreed that preserving this part of formatting was pointless. The creator deprecated this application of the template. I could plod through with a simple script, I suspect those who are able to wrangle sophisticated scripting could fly through the index and replace it with nothing, where appropriate. Cygnis insignis (talk) 16:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, great. I'll hit it with AWB in a couple days if no one objects and no one beats me to it. --Spangineer^wp (háblame) 16:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I was following the guidelines for Popular Science Monthly, which is the most complete guide to proofreading and formatting that I've managed to find. That says to use {{gap}} at the start of paragraphs. I know it is redundant considering the two lines present, but I would like to see it kept as I prefer that formatting when reading the final text - it makes it a lot easier to spot the paragraph start. Perhaps this could be done in CSS rather than using the template, though? Mike Peel (talk) 21:14, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The vast, vast majority of texts here don't indent paragraphs and never have, and I for one rather hope it stays that way. How does it make the paragraph start easier to identify? I'd think a line break is easily noticed. Anyway, we should get User:Ineuw in on this discussion, since it looks like he added this to PSM guidelines a couple months ago. —Spangineer^wp (háblame) 22:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

⁠Hi Spangineer. Read your note regarding this template. I think it really distinguishes a paragraph, and even though it's very old style, it's still used these days. It adds a touch of reminiscence to the original document and is a very useful also for inline spacing, like a short verse, or offset text. It's spacing is variable.

⁠I do this kind of work offline in a text editor with keyboard macros which eliminate the tedious repetition, typos, and is extremely quick. Formatting and proofreading a text page takes about ~5 minutes. In Wikisource, I use this TOOLBAR with various modifications, to suit the need of the moment, although this is a slow process. I hope this helps. — Ineuw (talk) 00:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

⁠Sorry, I posted this first on Spangineer's talk page.

I removed the new section header to illustrate a point, on a talk page mind you, the postscript immediately above was missing its leading gap so I added it. How does this look now? Try this thought experiment: how would the wikipedia community react to set of articles having the empty line and a gap for each new line? Cygnis insignis (talk) 02:33, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Along these lines, I'm confident that I've never seen a published work that was single spaced with empty lines between indented paragraphs. Could you provide an example of this "old style"? The one work from popular science that I proofed didn't do this (see Page:Popular Science Monthly Volume 30.djvu/306). I would understand if it was meant to more closely match the original, but in that case we should be eliminating the empty lines between paragraphs as well.

I'm not sure what you mean when you bring up macros and js buttons; I use various tools myself, but I'm not sure how it's relevant to this display issue.

Incidentally, I have no problem with using {{gap}} for poetry or any number of other reasons related to conveying special formatting in wikisource. If there's an argument to be made for a specific work being displayed in typical book formatting (indents and no paragraph spacing), I wouldn't automatically object. But it's standard practice on every wiki and throughout the internet that new paragraphs are not indented when preceded by an empty line, and it seems strange and inconsistent to begin implementing it here. —Spangineer^wp (háblame) 04:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

FWIW: I have seen a few, very few, texts that have both, a transitional thing to modern formats I suppose. The publishers did it to squeeze as much type on the page as possible, not so problematic with a small chunk of text, but reproducing parts of archaic formats doesn't allow us to do that with the full article splayed out. Poetry formats are (arguably) meaningful content, other uses of gap actually assist the reader or have no detrimental effect. Anyway, these are all a moot points because our witty and likeable colleague is merely advertising the PSM subproject (by their own admission elsewhere), intriguing people with the actual content would be a more productive strategy. The PSM guidelines are very helpful, up to a point. Cygnis insignis (talk) 05:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Those who like indented paragraphs should feel free to indent their paragraphs. The issue for me is that {{gap}} is a hideous way to implement that. If I had anticipated this abuse of the template, I would not have created it. If you want your text indented, use CSS text indentation. That's what it was invented for:

<div style="text-indent:1em; ">

You can wrap this around multiple paragraphs: you don't need to wrap each paragraph separately.

Here's an example: [1]. Isn't that a gazillion times better? Cleaner, simply, more principled.

Hesperian 06:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Hesperian, this is very interesting, thank you! However, my resistance of using this (in PSM in particular), is manifold.

1. First and most important is the time saved: <div style="text-indent:1em; "> is to be placed in the header of each page, which has to be opened & where javascript editing buttons don't work, at least not for me.

Default your page header to be open through your gadgets, and this also allows for page heading details to be added anyway, and with use of the regex tool this becomes easy

1. Since there are an average of two paragraph indents per page or less, (being somewhat of a statistics freak), this negates the use of an HTML tag.

this doesn't make it ideal or proper means to code, again see previous

1. For my concept of programming here, one template is worth 10 HTML tags. Gap has it's multifold uses on a page with a single click.

great, use regex and have a single click

1. The final result is what is most important, and in an environment with users having so many divergent interests in the components of proofreading, elegance has nothing to do with it.— Ineuw (talk) 15:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

until someone comes along and upgrades Gap to improve its function for the proper and determined use and it breaks all your pages, and someone has to do a clean-up

Plus, it is counter-productive to use it within other formatting templates. While it may be okay to try out a formatting means on a template, one shouldn't rely on a template to remain that static if one wishes to maintain a specific formatting look. Basic rule is if you want to have formatting that conforms to a look then use hard formatting code. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)