User talk:JustinCB

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Welcome yee to Wikisource[edit]


Hello, JustinCB, and welcome to Wikisource! Thank you for joining the project. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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Again, welcome! Beeswaxcandle (talk) 19:55, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you(the title is mine for finding on mobile) JustinCB (talk) 12:29, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Recent Edits to the Bible Translation[edit]

Hey, welcome to the Bible translation project. The project is basically starved for editors at the moment, so it's encouraging to see a new one show up. When you add new text or make an edit that changes wording in any significant way, could you leave an edit summary? That'll make things a bit easier for other editors to follow.

Another question -- I noticed that you're working from the Clementine Vulgate. In cases where place-names as spelled in the Vulgate differ from the spelling that is usually used in modern Bible translations, do you have any objection if I replace the Vulgate-specific name with the common modern equivalent -- (Ai instead of Hay, Ebal instead of Hebal, etc.)?

Feel free to drop a line on my talk page if you have any questions or comments. Alephb (talk) 03:22, 13 October 2017 (UTC)



Since we've been working together quite a bit, I thought I let you know, so you aren't left wondering, that I'm going to be taking a bit of a break from Wiki editing. I've got some things that are demanding a bit more of my time out in the real world. Alephb (talk) 06:02, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

OK, let me know when(if) you decide to come back from your wikibreak. I don't want to be nosy(and you don't need to answer or be specific), but what is it that is causing you to take the wikibreak? JustinCB (talk) 15:58, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Nothing to do with Wikisource/Wikipedia. Off in personal life I've got some new work responsibilities and family responsibilities that have hit simultaneously, and I'd like to get some of those things under control before coming back. Basically, I've got some aging grandparents that are going to require a bit more of my time, and a new job where I'm in the early learning stages, and a move to a new place that starts this weekend. I'm trying to establish a new set of daily/weekly routines (I'm one of those people that is best at consistently doing things if I make them a habit and can more or less do them on autopilot), and once I feel I've got my feet on more solid footing, I should be ready to get back to this stuff, probably on a somewhat more scheduled sort of a basis, maybe less so than now but still at least weekly. Most Wikipedians have been a pleasure to work with, and you are definitely included there. I continue to think the Wikipedia/Wikisource etc. set of projects is one of the most interesting things out there, and well worth a reasonable amount of my time.
I've set up email alerts so that I can respond to anything directly posted on my talk page, and I'm not saying I'll be 100% away over the coming few days / weeks / hopefully not as long as a couple months, but if I'll probably not be responding to much on the pages I usually frequent. Alephb (talk) 02:23, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
PS. In the meantime I'll still make sure to add at least a verse of text every two weeks, so as not to let my membership on the Wikisource Bible Project. By the way, have you considered adding your name to the list of contributors here: [1]? Given the amount you've done here, it seems a bit odd for me to be the only listed member of the project. Putting your name on the list wouldn't amount to any specific commitment -- it just means you've been working on the project, and any of us will automatically go "inactive" if we just don't make an edit to any of the project pages for a month. If you don't want your name on the list, that's fine too. Just wanted to make sure you knew it existed. Alephb (talk) 02:27, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Hey Justin, I'm back. At present, I think my editing will be restriction to a very brief check-in some mornings, and then maybe to a slot of an hour or two at most in the evenings. I'll try to contribute something at least a couple times a week, as life allows. Alephb (talk) 01:31, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
OK, is there something that you want to work on(perhaps continue with 2 Kings)? JustinCB (talk) 15:51, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Continuing with 2 Kings is the plan, then Chronicles, and then through the various books that have a lot of poetic content. I've put off the poetry, which is harder to translate. Alephb (talk) 17:47, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I meant 2 SAMUEL, not 2 Kings(again, the strong venjaunce of Latin). JustinCB (talk) 18:54, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
And I meant 1 Kings, not 2 Kings. We are a disaster. Alephb (talk) 23:45, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I thought you were working on 2 Samuel(I haven't been working on it since I did chapters 2,3,12, and 21).
Ah, I'd skipped ahead to stay out of your way earlier, but if you're done with it for now, I'll go back to 2 Samuel. Alephb (talk) 12:02, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
I've been mainly working on incomplete chapters not claimed by you and chapters contiguous with them not in chunks(they look done in the Table of Contents and on mobile). I've done a little work on the vulgate prologue(the Latin is more complex then anywhere else in the vulgate that I've before done[it's as the mideval belief that translations from french have french eloquence: translations from hebrew have the less gramatical complexity of hebrew]). JustinCB (talk) 12:18, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
The Hebrew syntax is interesting. It's fully capable of complex sentences with big subordinate clauses -- they show up in some legal legislation, for example. But in narrative sections -- most of the Bible -- there's this style that goes, "And this happened, and that happened, and this happened, and that happened, and so on . . ." I kind of like it; it looks to me like an integral part of how storytelling was done in ancient Hebrew literature. But I'd bet dollars to donuts that sooner or later some editor will come along and complexify the syntax. I'll probably just put up a really mild protest and let them do it. Alephb (talk) 12:43, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
Hebrew(indeed, most languages) are capable of long sentences, but the Latins seem to try to use all of the cases in pretty much every sentence(unlike Hebrew and English, that don't hardly have cases at all). As for that kind of storytelling, I my self like to tell storys that way(& pretty much every story is told like that). JustinCB (talk) 15:46, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Some guidance[edit]

The community looks to have missed given some guidance to align to the style guide, and to make things easier to edit. It is a truly guiding document and it is necessary reading to what we find important.

Some key things to note.

  • Relative links— please use relative links in headers, so if pages are moved they don't need to be individually corrected
  • no requirement to place in all the html code, in fact there is a preference to minimise code, and instead to use the templates that we have developed over the years to make things easier. So no need to do <p> simple putting in a double return will have the system do that. Use of {{center}} for centered text. See Help:templates for a fuller list.

One of the true advantages of templated code is that we are able to update code more easily as html and css advances and as the mediawiki software requires. Similarly we are more likely to avoid coding errors and omissions. Noting that code such as <center> is now deprecated, and we do like to avoid adding more cases of it.

Many of these things will be covered in the above links, however, please do refer to the community if you are unsure. The community is always there to answer questions at WS:Scriptorium or WS:Scriptorium/Help. Anyway, I will be/have updated some of recent additions. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:44, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Sorry. I was manually(and with find/replace) "converting" a HTML document of the entire Wycliffe bible into wikisource formatting, and in this doing I didn't bother to convert some formatting that worked for both. JustinCB (talk) 23:02, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
You have upper and lower case thorn issues Bible (Early Wycliffe) in the page names. You will need to work out whether the pages need to be moved, or whether it is a simple ToC fix — billinghurst sDrewth 23:34, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Edition issues. We work on editions, and this Toc component Introduction to this Edition says that this is not the 1380s edition. So that means that we need to add "editor" detail to the front page, and update the year to the year of this edition. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:37, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Can you please add the source and edition data that you have to Talk:Bible (Early Wycliffe). As hinted above, edition and provenance data is vital to Wikisource so that any errors and proofreading can take place as required. This is predominantly why we use scans rather than just take other people's work. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:39, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

By the way, I've added the information. The majority of the editing was done by me. Does that mean I have to release my edits or something? JustinCB (talk) 23:59, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

By the way, your edits caused the "thorn issues"(see your talk page). JustinCB (talk) 00:20, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

I fixed the capitalisation by replacing the thorns that should be lowercase with the lowercase thorn entity. JustinCB (talk) 00:54, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Unilateral Float right changes...[edit]

If you are going to make a drastic change like this :

to a widely used template, PLEASE consult first, and see where and how the template is actually used.

{{fr}} is called from inside a number of other span based templates, possibly in error.. Converting it to a DIV unilaterally causes those uses to break, and requires additional effort to repair...

A simmilar concern would apply to {{float-left}} ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:38, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

The same caution applies to other widely used templates such as the 1911EB fine print template. Simply switching the kind of tag does not solve the issue, but creates new problems. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:03, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
You will be blocked if you do that again. You just broke the template across all of Wikisource. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:20, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

anchor versus span id[edit]

You do realize tht {{anchor}} does not do the same thing as <span id= >. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:02, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Template adjustments and paragraph breaks[edit]

Some of the changes you're performing are changing paragraph breaks within the page and with the page transcluded into the main namespace, e.g. Page:On the expression of a number in the form 𝑎𝑥²+𝑏𝑦²+𝑐𝑧²+𝑑𝑢².djvu/11 or Atharva-Veda Samhita/Book XV/Paryaya 5. Could you look into that before continuing? Thanks. Prosody (talk) 01:47, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Page:Women of distinction.djvu/246[edit]

Slow down and consider that the smaller blocks for example might be part of a runs of content on other pages, whcih form part of a transclusion.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:59, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I appreciate that this and others are in good faith, but would strongly suggest:
  • Don't attempt "fixes" to more pages right now.
  • Carefully review ALL your efforts in Page: namespace, carefully considering the full context of where a Page: might be used, such as in a transclusion.
  • If you find a template you think is actually broken internally or is coming up against the DIV inside a span, note it in a list in your userspace.
  • Slow down considerably! If it's taking less than 10 secs to fix pages, that's maybe going too fast. Pause between saves if needed.
  • Do any changes grouped by Index.. (I will consider raising a ticket asking for grouped or filtered Linter reports).
  • Concentrate on getting a single Index (and transclusion.) fixed before doing another one.
  • Don't worry about the backlog, we all know it exists, trying to reduce it isn't necessarily the priority, getting stable and consistent fixes that work in the context of a Page: and a tranclusion is higher than reduction of the backlog..
  • Consider creating a list of the affected Index: so that you have some idea of the works affected in their entirity not just random pages that Linter's reports generate.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:32, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment we need to look at the collection of pages of a work collectively, not in isolation. The Lint tools are not helpful to be collective, as they were not designed for our site and the inter-relatedness. I would suggest that at this stage it would be useful to look at each work, and then on the "Index talk:" page of the work look to make notes of the fix, and when fixing the things for which we need to be mindful. We don't want to have a work look like a hotchpotch if different people fix things differently; and at least if things break from the new renderer they should break uniformly. If these fixes only get done after the renderer, then while less than perfect, is still okay, and better than a messed up work. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:13, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

A Work in Scots...[edit]

As you have some working with Scots - I thought this might appeal - Index:The Laws and Acts of Parliament of Scotland.djvu

once you've sorted out Linter concerns.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:14, 25 January 2018 (UTC)


A note.. Doing the side titles/marginal citations as sidenotes might not be appropriate for mobile... (Another complication.)

Did you get a chance to look at the Github page I linked from the Scriptorum a few days ago? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:00, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

I look'd at it, but I'm not entirely convinced that it(be it never so official) is the best way to present the documents electronically. I'm using a mobile device that displays many pages incorrectly, but it displays margin notes(at the current 5em width) correctly. The template I made to handle the layout argument(resolves it to either left or right), however, needs a minor edit to handle it being empty correctly. JustinCB (talk) 23:37, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
And I fix'd it JustinCB (talk) 00:28, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Something just occured to me... Can you do a test with the cl-act-paragraph as currently written, but converting P into DIV? That might solve one of the current issues. It won't solve the issue of side titles that need to have block based formating like P breaks though..ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:54, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

The issue of whitespace interactions is going to take a while.. And we need to centralise the disscusions on this. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:54, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

User:JustinCB/cl-act-p is using <div> now. JustinCB (talk) 23:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC) - If you can get these working, it's time to take a break :) 23:20, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Hmm.. SO I am wondering why in your version the table handling worked, and in my versions ( both of them it didn't.). Based on my own investigations it's down to whitespace handling or to the collapsing cell problem I mention elsewhere.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:36, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Given the concerns expressed elsewhere, I'd personally be inclined to abandon a complex template like this entirely. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:20, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Earlier you asked about undocumented stuff... Found something - Page:Ruffhead - The Statutes at Large - vol 9.djvu/594 the pre-text parameter, which in this instance was being used to add a " or ' prior to the section number formating.. Either this can be added directly, or we have a disscusion about how to mark nominally quoted passages like that. (Not a current use case but should be considered, as would the need to underline the contents of a block for example). Also again not a current use case, but it would be reasonable to consider how to mark a passage as greyed out (because it had ceased to be in force for example, based on a preference setting... hmm).. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:38, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Also the test case stopped working ... hmmm.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Also we are now back to the collapsing row situation on table one, and no wiki-table formatting on the second.. Seriously it's time to say this can't be done :( ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:00, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Close but a different issue on the last round, there's a need for something that isn't whitspace dependent.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:11, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
It's working! I found out, that spurious whitespace in my template caused "|-" to act like " |-", or "
|-", which caused it to not be interpreted as wiki markup. JustinCB (talk) 23:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Check your templates for any whitespace when handling tables. It might be extra whitespace, not missing whitespace that's causing your problems. JustinCB (talk) 23:42, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Congratulations! Now find something to ruthlessly test it against.... Margin note still uses SPAN so something I did in Railways Act 1921 was NEVER going to work long term, so I removed that code as it wasn't critical to the text's understanding anyway. You might want to have a look as to whether you templates work with that work.. Or alternatively find a short thing to work with...
I'll add one more test case, because that might be what causes some issues, in page: transclusion...ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:55, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Oh and don't forget to right a verbose Help: page on how to use these. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:19, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
See the added test cases... Getting it work with both the new instance and legacy cases will be crazy time... Let's leave till Monday Morning? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:28, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

A work on another wiki. la:Liber:Ruffhead - The Statutes at Large, 1763.djvu[edit]

The English language companion being: Index:Ruffhead - The Statutes at Large, 1763.djvu has a split presentation in places.

This has some very old statutes, and some portions do not seem to have been translated. Translating Mediaeval legal latin is probably a specialism though

And addding the sidenoting/ side titles is probably going to be tiresome.. ( I'd strongly suggest putting a series <ref></ref> in a sidenote/side title on this, if the cl-act-paragraph replacement can be adapted for ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:38, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00:Can you verify that the people doing the ruffhead want that(in ref tags) & not this(somewhat accurately reproducing original formatting)? JustinCB (talk) 21:34, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm the sole contributor, so far, at least on the la side of things so in effect we can make a decision almost unilatteraly re the first volume. :) , It gets more complex due to the dual language nature of portions of it. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:35, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
On other volumes ( there's 9 of them in total) there may be some other contributors... Volume 2/3 possibly..ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:42, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: I might be able to translate the Latin & Norman/Law French, & certainly any Middle/Early Modern English/Scots(if neccessary). I'm more interested in the ENGLISH version right now, what do they want, for, to copy this to Latin Wikisource, it should first be working on the English one: am I clear? JustinCB (talk) 22:04, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

As I said, I'm the sole contributor on this... The Latin is the original, and the English presented the (for the date) "smei-official" translation I think). Ideally both portions should be present, if this is on Wikisource. If cl-act-paragraph's replacement can be made to work consistently with this feel free. I'm not sure if any portions of it are translcuded into main-space yet. Although some portions may have been manually transcribed. I'll have to check some VERY early contributions of mine. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:20, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
There are portions that are not presented with a translation, typically really archaic portions. Volume 1 is (currently) split between English/Latin and French Wikisource owing to back in 2008 or that being the consensus. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:20, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
If you can get the English side of things nicely formatted using your cl-act-paragraph replacement in testing, it might be useful. Quite a lot of it is essentially single paragraphs in the early chapter so essentially cl-act-paragraph/x's. I was currently using refs because of the need to smallrefs after each chapter, and because based on the respective typesetting arrangments the sidetitles as shown overun vertically the original main text. There is nothing to stop what are essentialy notes on where something was later cited I think, being a single reference in a side title, though. Do some testing and let me know? I'm going to search my back contributions, to see if anything was transcluded from volume 1

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:20, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Statutes at Large[edit]

This is what I was able to uncover by examining past contributions...

The first list is some of my very very early efforts at Wikisource:

The second list is what's using transclusions from page name-space.

You if interested might want to look into this in more detail when you have spare time..

The next question is presumably is this at the stage given the size of a project like this asking someone (other than myself) to start a Wikiproject, and have a style guide before we continue? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:00, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Not main namespace[edit]

Think that you had some contributions that were not for main namespace ending up there. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:33, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: How am I supposed to add a css file? I'm trying to add a file that will cause an image within a frame to not be wider than the frame, but I can't figure out how to create a css file. JustinCB (talk) 13:37, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
At this point in time you cannot add .css files. Don't get too caught up with the printed book, the typography and compository work are interesting, and not mandated by our guidance. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:40, 20 February 2018 (UTC)