User talk:DivermanAU

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Hello, DivermanAU, and welcome to Wikisource! Thank you for joining the project. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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Again, welcome! — billinghurst sDrewth 10:09, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Doing nice work[edit]

Gday. You are doing some excellent proofreading on "The Dictionary of Australasian Biography". As a tip, with sections, I am not sure whether you are using the ## section name ## or the pair of <section begin="" /><section end="" /> … anyway, it would be lovely if you could insert the section names within double quote " ". It is a good practice as without the quotes it just sees the first word as the section name (it terminates on a space), so becomes problematic wherever a surname repeats on a page; whereas with the quotes, it takes the whole component as the tag name. Thanks. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:52, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback and tips;, I tried the ## section name ## method on one page and it didn't seem to work out, so more recently I've been using section begin/end. I'll remember to use " " for the ## method if I try it again. Diverman (talk) 21:19, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
You are doing a fantastic job, and you've got the transclusions spot on. As feedback about my original formatting for the work, I am still uncertain about the div formatting. Some of the smaller look RS when spread, and some of the larger don't need to be squashed. That said it looks good on my handheld devices.

If you are into hacking your js configuration pages, I have some good javascript shortcuts that help to take some of the tedium from editing, eg. section tags and transclusion. Some in the old toolbar, some in a sidebar. Call if you want assistance.

With wikilinks, we link 0) all works mentioned; and preferentially 1) articles within a work and especially with q.v.-type links, and with this work we use {{DAB lkpl}} (ie. link plain), 2) to Author pages where they exist or may exist, 3) to enWP. We have tended to underlink other components of works. If you are at enWP, then there we have {{cite Australasia}} that links back to the individual pieces of the work. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:28, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again for the feedback, I'm keen to try out the javascript shortcuts and would appreciate your guidance on how to install and use them.
I've used my first {{DAB lkpl}} link just recently, I'll try to keep using them where relevant. I've also used the {{cite Australasia}} link at WP, it's a good way to link those articles back to a primary source.Diverman (talk) 02:47, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
I should have noted that I am a bit of a dinosaur and 1) using the older style toolbar Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing and turning off the beta features as per Wikisource:Tools and scripts/More editing buttons; 2) sidebar regex tool Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets and you would need to modify the preferences to use these features. As an admin, I am able to edit your Special:MyPage/common.js file and can load some of these instances if that is helpful to you. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:34, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I have moved forward (if I understand your statements) and put in place the regex text components, and you will need to turn on your regex gadget. To see and use these components, when you edit you will see grey clickable text on the left had side of the edit pane, beneath the sidebar. Some are designed solely for certain namespace.

If this has worked, and you are ready for toolbar buttons, let me know. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:58, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Not sure how to turn on regex gadget, sorry. I'll need instructions, I'm not familiar with the gadgets. I didn't see any grey editable text yet.
As an aside, I have written a script (in AutoIt) to auto-generate the individual's entries in Australasian. I start with a CSV file that has the person's name and djvu page numbers. So when I proofread pages, I paste the data in Excel, then do a little massaging, save the CSV file and pass that as a parameter to the script. Then it auto-generates the text (one per entry) that transcludes that person's info. Then I paste that into Wikisource. Diverman (talk) 07:44, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets check the box for the text "Add a sidebar menu of user-defined regex tools, with a dynamic form for instant one-use regex (documentation)." and save it. This turns the tool on. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:28, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

RunningHeader Script "rh"[edit]

I've been using the "clean up" script when editing pages - it's very handy, thanks! (Just got to watch for valid hyphenated words split across lines like "Agent-General" where the hyphen vanishes.)

I haven't been able to get the {{rh}} script to work - it doesn't appear to do anything. Is there a technique for making it work? I've just been using the RunningHeader tempate manually. Diverman (talk) 11:15, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I would generally do {{hyphenated word start|Agent|Agent-General}} and {{hyphenated word end|General|Agent-General}}
For {{RunningHeader}}, you have a choice of three parameters {{RunningHeader|||}} which are $1 = left, $2 = center, or $3 = right. Alternatively you can use named parameters left=left text, right = right text, and center =center textbillinghurst sDrewth 15:02, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Woohoo! Congratulations[edit]

Fantastic job on the completion of The Dictionary of Australasian Biography. I think that you deserve the task of now editing this to Template:New texts. Again congrats. — billinghurst sDrewth 03:15, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

You need to add the {{new texts/item}} template to Template:New texts rather than to the work. Cheers, Beeswaxcandle (talk) 07:00, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that Beeswaxcandle, I wasn't sure where it should go and now fixed it up. Diverman (talk) 11:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations to you and Billinghurst on completing this work. It looks like it was a huge project which I'm sure you happy to see the back of. Thanks. Moondyne (talk) 09:44, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Moondyne, and thanks to Billinghurst for starting the project. Now I'm going to be adding info from the DAB to Wikipedia where appropriate for a while to come! Diverman (talk) 11:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Oh gee, and here I had in mind Strzelecki's Index:Physical Description of New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land.djvu :-))) — billinghurst sDrewth 14:30, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

{{DAB link}} is available for the fuller citations. — billinghurst sDrewth 01:54, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Wikisource User Group[edit]

Wikisource, the free digital library is moving towards better implementation of book management, proofreading and uploading. All language communities are very important in Wikisource. We would like to propose a Wikisource User Group, which would be a loose, volunteer organization to facilitate outreach and foster technical development, join if you feel like helping out. This would also give a better way to share and improve the tools used in the local Wikisources. You are invited to join the mailing list 'wikisource-l' (English), the IRC channel #wikisource, the facebook page or the Wikisource twitter. As a part of the Google Summer of Code 2013, there are four projects related to Wikisource. To get the best results out of these projects, we would like your comments about them. The projects are listed at Wikisource across projects. You can find the midpoint report for developmental work done during the IEG on Wikisource here.

Global message delivery, 23:21, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

New Proposal Notification - Replacement of common main-space header template[edit]

Announcing the listing of a new formal proposal recently added to the Scriptorium community-discussion page, Proposals section, titled:

Switch header template foundation from table-based to division-based

The proposal entails the replacement of the current Header template familiar to most with a structurally redesigned new Header template. Replacement is a needed first step in series of steps needed to properly address the long time deficiencies behind several issues as well as enhance our mobile device presence.

There should be no significant operational or visual differences between the existing and proposed Header templates under normal usage (i.e. Desktop view). The change is entirely structural -- moving away from the existing HTML all Table make-up to an all Div[ision] based one.

Please examine the testcases where the current template is compared to the proposed replacement. Don't forget to also check Mobile Mode from the testcases page -- which is where the differences between current header template & proposed header template will be hard to miss.

For those who are concerned over the possible impact replacement might have on specific works, you can test the replacement on your own by entering edit mode, substituting the header tag {{header with {{header/sandbox and then previewing the work with the change in place. Saving the page with the change in place should not be needed but if you opt to save the page instead of just previewing it, please remember to revert the change soon after your done inspecting the results.

Your questions or comments are welcomed. At the same time I personally urge participants to support this proposed change. -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:04, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

EB1911 updates[edit]

Thanks for the proofreading efforts in EB1911 page space. EB1911 needs a lot more attention and there aren't enough editors! However, you may be setting the rest of us a high bar with the typographical changes. In case you didn't see it, I re-opened that discussion at Wikisource talk:WikiProject 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica. DavidBrooks (talk) 19:42, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Added: I see you have been at this for a long time - longer than me. I apologize for not realizing that. Still, my comments are based on discussions with PBS and Bob Burkhart, and I understand they are well plugged-in to the consensus discussions. DavidBrooks (talk) 22:35, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
That's fine — I was just basing my work on that of others before me e.g. used “curly quotes” in 2011. I'd done previous work on the DNB, they didn't use "straight quotes" in their text then. One of the comments on the WikiProject page you mentioned was “We are aiming to reproduce the text as printed” (2006) — is that still the case? But happy to conform with consensus views. Diverman (talk) 22:52, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
I believe the consensus is more subtle now; it's more like "be faithful to the content but think like a contemporary printer". There are IMO already too many Talk pages to track in this project (not to mention Scriptorium where I dare not tread), but the most recent discussion is in Wikisource talk:WikiProject 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica/Style Manual, near the end of page. When I say "discussion", I mean I asked some questions and some of them were answered. And WS:MOS is the master consensus. I was happy with curly apostrophes (they are really easy to enter using the Win8 onscreen keyboard) but MOS seems to trend against them. My current rules are: no extraneous space markup, straight apos but curly quotes, polytonic for Greek. Feel free to enter the discussion. And this reminds me I intended to expand the images help text. DavidBrooks (talk) 03:40, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
hi, thanks for the work on EB1911 Page:EB1911 - Volume 04.djvu/701. volume 4 has articles already proofread in article space, and i’m copy pasting them over onto page space with a transclusion. volumes 14-28 need a lot of love. Slowking4Farmbrough's revenge 15:30, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
hi, thanks for the referencing at english wikipedia. only 5,789 articles to go. i would do more there, but an admin is reverting my references. i’ve moved on, but will try to work on wikisource EB articles periodically. Slowking4T A L K 12:41, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
Hi Slowking4, thanks also for your work on EB1911. Who is the admin on Wikipedia reverting your edits? Maybe I'll have a quiet work with them. DivermanAU (talk) 02:24, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
well , i have a list here [1] (the bottom of the list is put back by others) but i wouldn’t bother. he’s a vandal fighter, and beyond reason. Slowking4T A L K 02:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Contributor initials[edit]

Looking at your update to Page:EB1911 - Volume 04.djvu/113, you may not be aware of Template:EB1911 footer initials. In this case: {{EB1911 footer initials|Edmond Warre|E. Wa}}. That helps with consistent formatting. There's still a bug that I hope some HTML wizard can fix: it does leave a fairly large vertical margin, but if you include it on the same line as a Small Print section, the latter's line spacing can be broken. Also, someone started producing per-contributor templates (see Category:EB1911 contributor templates), but I think the community voted against continuing with them, and in any case they have ended up with redundant parentheses (I fixed a few). DavidBrooks (talk) 16:28, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the tip. I only became aware of the footer initials template recently. I added it to my User:Diverman page — where I have a few templates/tips for myself — shortly before your note. I'll make use of it.
For me, the best tip I read was one recently was to use the EB1911 text from Project Gutenberg (I right-click and choose "View Page Source") for use in the Wikisource EB1911 pages. I recorded a couple of macros in Notepad++ to automate the conversion of the HTML tags for: ’ ” <i>italic words</i> etc. into: ' ” ''italic words''. A little more formatting and you have a proofed page! Diverman (talk) 20:19, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed[edit]

23:24, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Diverman and DivermanAU[edit]

Just confirming that Diverman and DivermanAU are both my accounts in Wikipedia and in Wikisource. As explained I was prompted to change my account from Diverman, I didn't really want to, but I did anyway as I didn't think there was a choice. DivermanAU (talk) 02:20, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Greek, and hairspace[edit]

I noticed a couple of recent changes you made:

  • {{Greek}} to {{Polytonic}}: someone a few months ago (PBS?) pointed out that consensus was to use {{Greek}} (at least on wikisource) and the EB1911 Style manual calls for {{Greek}}, but I forget the rationale. The style manual discussion suggests either will do.
  • Replacing a literal n-dash with {{}}. I appreciate your preference for textual fidelity and introducing the hairspace. My concerns are consistency (I have written an awful lot of unadorned ndashes recently) and also that some others may mistake that for a template hyphen and try to copy your markup, resulting in the "clear both margins" operation. The same danger is present with a simple – character, but at least a hyphen is not such a bad substitute. Using &ndash; resolves that ambiguity, but again consensus is strongly against using html entities. Do you want to argue for consistent use of the template? See also a note by EncycloPetey on Wikisource talk:WikiProject 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica. DavidBrooks (talk) 22:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
ETA - yes, I use the {{}} template a lot (that's an mdash) because I find the hair-space stops the ink bleeding from the dash to the letters around it. But apparently the village pump is, or was, also discussing deprecation of that template. There is still not a full consensus on visual fidelity, but I would point out that photographic fidelity is not possible (who has that typeface in their browser?) and what's important is semantic fidelity. DavidBrooks (talk) 23:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi DavidBrooks, I was going on your advice from an earlier discussion (28 February 2015) on this page where you had as your rule "polytonic for Greek". I thought the use of polytonic was encouraged because it displays the accents etc. of Ancient Greek better. There's no indication on the Polytonic template page or discussion page that Greek should be used instead. I wasn't aware of the consensus change. I also wasn't aware of the other issues for the ndash and mdash templates. I thought the templates were there to solve issues. DivermanAU (talk) 07:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You should probably take these discussions back to the project talk page. I get the advice from PBS and EncycloPetey, who have been in this space a long time and are tuned into the wiki-wide discussions.
The Greek and Polytonic templates have the same purpose, to render using a more appropriate typeface and mark the language using lang html tags, and on my screen they have an identical result. The difference in implementation is that Polytonic embeds the font family list using {{Polytonic fonts}} (to my mind, this refactoring makes it more flexible, and the extra computing cost is negligible). As a result "Greek" uses style="font-family: DejaVu Sans, Athena, Gentium, Palatino Linotype, Arial Unicode MS, Lucida Sans Unicode, Lucida Grande, Code2000, sans-serif;", and "Polytonic fonts" uses "Athena, Gentium, 'Palatino Linotype', 'Arial Unicode MS', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', 'Lucida Grande', Code2000". I don't know what DejaVu adds; it's not on my Windows 8.1 box and I use Palatino Linotype. So, really, right now the choice of template seems to be personal preference, unless the community has plans to change one of them. Both names are slightly misleading. "Greek" is easier to type. "Polytonic" seems to imply "use polytonic characters" but actually the character code determines that. It's really "use the font that was conventional during the time before Monotonic became standard in Greece". DavidBrooks (talk) 13:50, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

EB1911 Fine Print size[edit]

Copied from Page:EB1911 - Volume 04.djvu/404 -

--font 100% --

See the articles on Arya, Samaj, Keshub Chunder Sen, Ram Mohan Roy. Also John Robson, Hinduism and Christianity; and the Theistic Quarterly Review (the organ of the Society since 1880).

-- EB1911 Fine Print (shown at original size of 85%)--

See the articles on Arya, Samaj, Keshub Chunder Sen, Ram Mohan Roy. Also John Robson, Hinduism and Christianity; and the Theistic Quarterly Review (the organ of the Society since 1880).

--fontsize 90 --

See the articles on Arya, Samaj, Keshub Chunder Sen, Ram Mohan Roy. Also John Robson, Hinduism and Christianity; and the Theistic Quarterly Review (the organ of the Society since 1880).

--fontsize 95 --

See the articles on Arya, Samaj, Keshub Chunder Sen, Ram Mohan Roy. Also John Robson, Hinduism and Christianity; and the Theistic Quarterly Review (the organ of the Society since 1880).

I believe the EB1911 Fine Print template shows the text too small (based on my measurements of the scanned book, the font size of the Fine Print is about 95%. DivermanAU (talk) 02:51, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Updated scripts[edit]

Hi DivermanAU. I edited your common.js to update you to the latest version of TemplateScript. You were using a much older version called regex menu framework, so you should notice a lot of improvements. A few of the big changes:

  regex menu framework TemplateScript
regex editor ✓ an improved regex editor which can save your patterns for later use
compatibility unknown ✓ compatible with all skins and modern browsers
custom scripts limited ✓ much better framework for writing scripts
supported views edit ✓ add templates and scripts for any view (edit, block, protect, etc)
keyboard shortcuts ✓ add keyboard shortcuts for your templates and scripts

Let me know if anything breaks. :) —Pathoschild 16:37, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

most templates don't handle an equals[edit]

With templates if you need to use an equals, then you need to do a little work with the sign. Either use the template {{=}} (and look how I have to do that in the code) or force the positional parameter, {{smaller|1=sometimes you need to force an = sign}} eg. sometimes you need to force an = sign. What is happening there is that the equals sign is telling the template that all the stuff before the equals is a parameter called 'whatever you had'. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:42, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

EB1911 Braces.[edit]

I just want to say thank you personally for starting the integration of braces to eb1911, it's one of the few projects I feel dedicated to work on. Some of the titles of articles run over the maximum length of braces, such as "andrew of Longjumeau" on page xxvi, along with others scattered throughout. I've made a temporary fix by simply shrinking the font, is there a better way that you can think of? Legofan94 (talk) 15:45, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi Legofan94, glad to see you noticed the braces. I saw you had made some brace additions too, so thanks! I had a look at djvu/25 - when I edited and removed the small font and previewed, "Andrew of Longjumeau" looked OK to me - it was still all on one line. I used both Chrome and IE11 on Windows 7 to do that and it looked OK on both. I’ve now used thinspaces "& thinsp;" for his entry to see if it make a difference for you. (Did you try different zoom levels in your browser?) I think the longer-term fix (if it’s an issue on some browsers) would be to edit "Template:EB1911 contributor table/entry" and change the width of the subjects column — it’s currently at 15em. (I think the Initials column also needs widening slightly as some four-letter initials do wrap-around; I have used the thinspace work-around on some of those.) I’ll take a look, I think I can use a width like 15.5em. Keep up the good work! 
I also had a go at having a large brace span multiple subject, rows see Page:EB1911 - Volume 01.djvu/24 (under author A. C. L.) it works OK but had to use the literal code from the template. I'll see if there’s another way. — DivermanAU (talk) 18:05, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Well Longjumeau's bracket looks alright, except since I'm using an Acer Chromebook with a roughly 10 inch screen, I have to scroll out to 67% to see it fully. And even when I'm zoomed out this far, it does nothing to affect some other longer titles, including "American War of Independence: Naval Operations". I agree; The best choice would be to manually edit the templates code and make it extend out a few centimeters to the left. Another thing, should the title of the first page be changed to a footnote? because I can't think of a way to keep the footnote and bottom running header seperate, while also keeping the header below. --Legofan94 (talk) 18:52, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Changes to Template:EB1911 Shoulder HeadingSmall[edit]

Please see Template talk:EB1911 Shoulder Heading#New optional parameters in it I have explained my change to {{EB1911 Shoulder HeadingSmall}} -- PBS (talk) 16:13, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


This template is for the modern form of the language, not for the polytonic script. For that, use {{polytonic}}. This is standard across several projects. --EncycloPetey (talk) 20:34, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Double table headers[edit]

Hi. With Template:EB1911 contributor table and Template:EB1911 contributor table B/entry there appears to be two heads to the table. They are being reported by the lint error function. It looks to be a serious template and not inviting to a casual fix. Would you mind reviewing. Thanks. — billinghurst sDrewth 08:46, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi, the first one Template:EB1911 contributor table looks OK to me, I can only see one header. I didn´t ceate that template, I just made one minor edit to it. The second one I also didn't create, I don't pretend to fully understand it, it's just a copy I made of Template:EB1911 contributor table/entry. It does contain a nested table (based on the comment "nested table to hold initials and name/bio" ) that's in there. That may explain why there are two headers, one nested inside another. DivermanAU (talk) 17:47, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

FYI only[edit]

This is nothing more than an FYI for your enWP editing. I have found and started on Index:Notable South Australians.djvu, most of the detail looks reasonable for us with regards to notability, though there may be edge cases. At this stage I am just transcribing rather than judging. Unfortunately all scan versions that I found had shitty reproduction of the photographs. {{frown}} I will give you a holler when I have got far enough to start transcluding. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:47, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Stolen images from another scan, not fabulous, images serviceable bar one. Started transcluding Notable South Australiansbillinghurst sDrewth 04:53, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Rather than revert, tell me the issue[edit]

The revert means that we have a strong of table headers being inserted and not compliant with the rendering system. So tell me the issue that you see with the changed code as I don't see a problem with the page, nor where it is transcluded. — billinghurst sDrewth 03:45, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi billinghurst, I did the revert because it looks you made the same change to that page Page:EB1911 - Volume 08.djvu/6 you made on 12 September which caused the same issue. When you removed elements on that page, it badly affected the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica/Vol 8/Table of contributors page (which transcludes the other page) and "broke" the table display. The page before and after page/6 were displaying OK but page/6 wasn't so that why I fixed it by reverting. DivermanAU (talk) 05:41, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Problem is that the existing breaks other things, and is showing up in lint errors that need resolving. Sometimes I hate these really complex templates that are so tricky to update. :-/ — billinghurst sDrewth 06:33, 8 December 2017 (UTC)