Wikisource:Administrators' noticeboard

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Administrators' noticeboard
This is a discussion page for coordinating and discussing administrative tasks on Wikisource. Although its target audience is administrators, any user is welcome to leave a message or join the discussion here. This is also the place to report vandalism or request an administrator's help.
  • Please make your comments concise. Editors and administrators are less likely to pay attention to long diatribes.
  • This is not the place for general discussion. For that, see the community discussion page.
  • Administrators please use template {{closed}} to identify completed discussions that can be archived
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Wikisource snapshot

No. of pages = 2,786,755
No. of articles = 757,051
No. of files = 22,894
No. of edits = 9,648,526

No. of pages in Main = 451,002
No. of pages in Page: = 1,964,993
No. validated in Page: = 409,216
No. proofread in Page: = 651,801
No. not proofread in Page: = 720,322
No. problematic in Page: = 29,488
No. of validated works = 3,340
No. of proofread only works = 2,344
No. of pages in Main
with transclusions = 243,265
% transcluded pages in Main = 53.94
Σ pages in Main

No. of users = 2,915,403
No. of active users = 366
No. of group:autopatrolled = 461
No. in group:sysop = 28
No. in group:bureaucrat = 2
No. in group:bot = 21

Checkuser requests[edit]

  • Wikisource:checkuser policy
  • At this point of time, English Wikisource has no checkusers and requests need to undertaken by stewards
    • it would be expected that requests on authentic users would be discussed on this wiki prior to progressing to stewards
    • requests by administrators for identification and blocking of IP ranges to manage spambots and longer term nuisance-only editing can be progressed directly to the stewards
    • requests for checkuser

Bureaucrat requests[edit]

Page (un)protection requests[edit]

Request protection of Main Page templates[edit]

According to the very first point under Wikisource:Protection_policy#Special_cases “The main page should always be protected…”, yet this edit took place today. Some care and attention, please? (Normally Phe-bot is the sole updater of Template:ALL TEXTS!) 17:57, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I have place soft protection on the page. — billinghurst sDrewth 20:09, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment To fellow administrators, I have up'd the protection on a couple of templates that won't need updating. I have a question about Template:Highlights, should this be sitting at semi/soft? If we are unlikely to change it, then we should be protecting it further. — billinghurst sDrewth 20:27, 15 October 2018 (UTC)


Resource Loader issue needs outside guidance[edit]

The more I read up on this RL change and the subsequent actions needed (or taken?), the more I get the feeling some of my approach to site wide & gadget .js/.css organization over the months is going to behind this week's latest problems. If that winds up to be the case, then I'm truly, truly sorry for that. Let me try to document those steps and the reasoning behind them in hopes someone (@Krinkle:) can made sense of our current state and put us on the right path post RL change(s).

Originally, we not only had a ridiculous amount of scripting and .css definitions in our primary site-wide MediaWiki files to begin with but also called a number of stand-alone .js/.css files within those primary MediaWiki files called unnecessarily in addition to calls to various sub-scripts on top of any User: selected gadgets being called -- some of which eventually became default loaded per concensus, etc..

A simple depiction of the key files mentioned minus any Gadgets basically went like this...

Over several months with help of other folks, I began to consolidate and/or eliminate as much scripting calls as I could -- creating optional Gadgets whenever possible -- and tried much the same for the .css class definitions. The rationale behind doing this can be found in several places, most importantly: Wikipedia. The premise to keep the MediaWiki site-wide files "lean" goes like this....

 * Keep code in MediaWiki:Common.js to a minimum as it is unconditionally
 * loaded for all users on every wiki page. If possible create a gadget that is
 * enabled by default instead of adding it here (since gadgets are fully
 * optimized ResourceLoader modules with possibility to add dependencies etc.)
 * Since Common.js isn't a gadget, there is no place to declare its
 * dependencies, so we have to lazy load them with mw.loader.using on demand and
 * then execute the rest in the callback. In most cases these dependencies will
 * be loaded (or loading) already and the callback will not be delayed. In case a
 * dependency hasn't arrived yet it'll make sure those are loaded before this.

The result of that effort as it stands today can be depicted basically like this....

The predominant change in order to move towards the previously cited rationale & approach is that the bulk of the scripting and class definitions now reside in the default-enabled Site gadget files, MediaWiki:Gadget-Site.js & MediaWiki:Gadget-Site.css. And by no means is the current state the desired final approach; its been a work in progress as time allowed over several months.

Obviously, now with the recent change to Gadgets and ResourceLoader, either the existing rationale or my attempts (or both) are no longer in harmony -- if they ever were. In my view, we need someone like Krinkle (or maybe the collective minds of Wikitech-l?) to take the time and attention needed to come in here and straighten all this out -- one way or the other. My gut tells me THAT will resolve the reported loss of one thing or another post-RL change(s). Again, if I'm right about my actions exacerbating problems for other, I apologize and take full responsibility. -- George Orwell III (talk) 20:54, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I've made a few minor changes in addition to yours that hopefully make things work a bit more like you intended. I'm happy to provide further guidance but that probably works better for a more specific need or question. Perhaps bring it up on Wikitech-l or on IRC so we I can help you move forward with any unresolved issues. Krinkle (talk) 21:37, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Interface administrators[edit]

Hi. Please see I do not remember if this was already discussed and how it is going to be addressed. Comments and suggestions welcome. Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment As far as I am concerned I would trust any admin who feels skilled and confident enough to tackle such edits.— Mpaa (talk) 21:05, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

I can handle the technical aspects of it. However, it can take me a while to get around to tasks that take longer than a few minutes, so I don't want to create a false expectation of being able to handle time sensitive matters on my own. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 02:35, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

We should decide how to address the fact that EnWS has no m:interface administrators. I see basically the following options. Please add/amend as you feel appropriate.

Option A - Assign right on demand when needed

Option B - Assign right permanently to willing Admins, to be reviewed in the confirmation process

As I said above, I am for the simplest one.— Mpaa (talk) 21:28, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Option C - Assign right permanently to selected Admins, after approval process, to be reviewed in the confirmation process

Option C sounds like you're being volunteered (based on the lack of the word 'willing'). ;) --Mukkakukaku (talk) 06:27, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Option D - assign the rights to all the admins, who have already been vetted for community approval, and then whoever has the ability and desire can make use of it as they will and as needed. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:33, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Option D would make the most sense for us. For anyone to get themselves to the point that we trust them with the admin tools just so that they can mess around in the interface, they would be playing a very long game. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 22:05, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Beeswaxcandle, Option D, although I would also be fine with the right only going to admins who express an interest. BD2412 T 23:00, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
It is so rare I disagree with Beeswaxcandle but this must be one of those times. The whole point of this change is to prevent the ignorant from accidentally screwing up - insulting as the implications undoubtedly are! As such under the new regime trust is no longer enough; perhaps somebody ought to draw up some kind of eligibility examination…? 23:03, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
That hasn't been an issue for us yet, and accidental changes are easily reversed. If we had more users it would be more of a problem, but as it stands this kind of distinction is more cumbersome than helpful in my opinion. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 00:08, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
As much as I like the idea of making all existing admin interface admin, IA were separated from regular adminship specifically to reduce attack surface(from hackers), and it was pretty dangerous if the access fell into the wrong hand, I'd rather propose having existing admin request right from bureaucrat and could be granted at the bureaucrat's discretion, and should be automatically removed if no action after two month.Viztor (talk) 02:13, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment we discussed it when the rights were split, and it was agreed that it could be assigned on a needs basis. That has been done at least once for me with the temporary assignation of the IA rights. — billinghurst sDrewth 05:58, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
    Note that WMF Legal requires 2FA to be enabled for users who are to be assigned this right, so bureaucrats will have to verify this before doing so. MediaWiki's 2FA implementation is also sufficiently finicky that one may not want to enable it without proper consideration. --Xover (talk) 08:21, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
    What's wrong with the 2FA implementation? I haven't had any issues with it at all. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 22:17, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
    Ah, sorry, I should have been more clear. I am going on hearsay, mostly from admins on enwp (a crotchety bunch if ever there was one), and my own assessment of the documentation at meta. The main complaints are that the implementation in general is a little bit primitive (as is to be expected since WMF rolled their own instead of federating with one of the big providers), and that there is no way to regain access to your account if something goes wrong with the 2FA stuff (if your phone is stolen etc.) unless you happen to know one of the developers personally. None of these are in themselves showstoppers, and many people are using it entirely without issue. The phrasing sufficiently finicky that one may not want to enable it without proper consideration was not intended to discourage use, but merely to suggest that it is worthwhile actually giving it a little thought before requesting it be turned on. --Xover (talk) 17:52, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
    Okay, gotcha. As it happens, Wikimedia 2FA does include emergency access codes for use when your phone is unavailable. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 19:56, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Obligations / expectations of administrators[edit]

In light of recents matters where it might have helped if there were clear community guidelines on what our expectations of administrators are, I have rewritten Wikisource:Adminship#Obligations of administrators to express my own view of the matter.[1] This is of course merely a conversation starter. Please feel free to revert, edit, but most importantly, discuss. Hesperian 00:52, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

@Hesperian: The way your additions are worded put them in conflict with some established policies, such as the Wikisource:Blocking policy, specifically regarding unblocking. Your added text would change policy so that if any established user challenges a block, then the blocked account must be unblocked and cannot be blocked until a community discussion is held to obtain consensus, even in cases where the blocking admin has additional (even sensitive) information. It also strains against the blocking policy's guidelines for controversial blocks.
I would disagree with a single opposition constituting a failure of consensus and the need to obtain consensus. Two established editors, perhaps, but not just one. We have a number of policies and decisions established by consensus for which there are lone voices of dissent. And as we have no ground rules rule for deciding "consensus" in a discussion, where typically there are often only two or three voices doing the discussing, I can see a path down which every decision could be challenged, rendering sysops impotent. Look through most deletion discussions, where the rules are well defined: yet deletion discussions have few participants, and can drag on for months without reaching any clear decision.
I would recommend starting a discussion to gather input and iron out the phraseology before adding the text, particularly as there has not been strong support of your view expressed in any of the discussion thus far. --EncycloPetey (talk) 02:08, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
I've made a few alterations to try to account for the fact that policies are the result of community consensus, and that some actions follow discussion. I'm still not sure about "Administrators should not use their rights in disputed matters in which they are involved" because "involved" could mean almost anything. On Wikipedia, the very fact that an administrator has stepped in means they are "involved", so the limitation becomes self-referential. On Wikisource, it is also much rarer to find any situation where active admins are not "involved" because we are a much smaller community than Wikipedias. Any active admin is going to be "involved" in most situations. --EncycloPetey (talk) 02:48, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Petey, I don't see a substantive conflict with the blocking policy. Let us say that an established editor engages in disruptive behaviour, and that an administrator blocks them in accordance with the blocking policy. Your concern is that the established editor who has been blocked would immediately object to the block, and that the blocker would be obliged immediately to unblock. I can appreciate your concern that this would render the blocking policy toothless. However, my response is that blocking an established editor is always a highly contentious action, even when in accordance with policy; and that the blocker, upon applying the block, ought immediately to advise the community what they had done and why. Having done so, it would very soon become clear whether the block had broad community support or not. If the block turns out to be contentious, then yes, the block should be lifted. If the blocking admin is so silly as to block an established editor and not immediately lay their rationale before the community, then yes, the block should be lifted as soon as the established editor objects.

The over-riding principle is that the administrator uses their tools to enact the will of the community, rather than their own will. If they act unilaterally and fail to check that the will of the community is what they think it is, they may find they have to undo what they've done.

What I want to move us away from is the situation where administrators take unilateral actions that turn out to be contentious, then argue down the community until we all get sick of the drama and move on, until the next contentious unilateral use of the tools.

Hesperian 03:08, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

The way your additions were originally worded, any objection by any established editor would overturn any sysop action, even if there is clear policy (established by consensus) or even if there had just been a discussion which had reached consensus. Even if there was clear policy, established by consensus. This isn't about "will", it's about the fact that policies and discussions can exist where there has been consensus reached. If any objection by anyone can overturn policy and consensus discussions, then consensus is meaningless. If someone has an objection to policy or a closed discussion, then that person should initiate a discussion to reverse previous decision or to change policy. It should not be within the power of any individual to override policies and community decisions. --EncycloPetey (talk) 03:18, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Well, I disagree with your changes, which pretty much give administrators a free pass if their actions are in accordance with their reading of policy. I would say that 99% of disputes over administrative actions are essentially disputes over whether policy applies / has been properly interpreted / has been properly applied. How are these disputes resolved?: by testing community consensus. How do you know that your application of policy may not be quite in accordance with community consensus? — the first sign is that an established editor objects to what you have done.
It is the will of the community that rules. Policy merely provides excellent guidance in figuring out what the will of the community is.
Hesperian 03:20, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

I appreciate we're editing forward on this, instead of reverting each other, despite coming from quite different viewpoints. I have made further edits that hopefully encompass both our perspectives. Hesperian 03:35, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

@Hesperian: Just to be the obligatory pedantic contrarian that rains on everyone's parade: I don't appreciate it… in that you are having the discussion in a public facing page that carries authority similar to policy. Such pages should be stable (barring trivial changes) until a consensus is established for change. And it doesn't help that the discussion isn't neutral: it is triggered by a specific issue that is the subject of controversy, and as such all observers will be coloured by that context. In other words, the discussion should be had here and Wikisource:Adminship#Obligations of administrators changed only when consensus for that change is reached. In fact, I feel so strongly about that that were I not a relative newbie both to WS and the bit I would have been inclined to revert the page to the status quo pending a consensus forming here.
And I think that issue is somewhat symptomatic of the underlying problem: enWS has a bit of an aversion to what is perceived as "bureaucracy" (process and policy), wanting instead to deal with stuff ad hoc, leading to conflicting guidance, guidance that is a moving target, and subjective judgement on what the policy is, how it is to be interpreted, and "everyone just knows" issues. It also leaves us vulnerable to transient outrage, enthusiasm, or personal antipathy or affinity deciding the outcome of an issue. Not even Solomon would be able to legislate wisely from a single controversial issue, and a wise judgement on that single issue is impossible if there is no existing legislation to cover it. Nemo censetur ignorare legem obligates the legislature more than it does those subject to the legislation.
I also have some thoughts on the substance of this discussion, but those had better be allowed to mature a bit before chiming in. --Xover (talk) 08:38, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
I don't care for the way this is framed. There is recognition of the overarching concerns, but failure to see these actions facilitating discussion and any solutions. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 10:12, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
@Cygnis insignis: I apologise, but I'm afraid I don't understand what it is you are objecting to. Perhaps if you could be a bit more specific I might be able to amend it to remove the grounds for the objection? --Xover (talk) 13:01, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Because it suggests that this is a reaction to a single incident, and that the discussion is not neutral. Even Solomon … just say what you think it should allow you to do. The purpose of sysops at wikipedia, in stark contrast to what was historically a borstel here, is to facilitate the creation of content only. Contribute some solutions, the insinuations are how every other attempt has been stifled. That is how I read the comment, what is "not appreciated" by you for some reason. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 13:39, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
@Cygnis insignis: Hmm. I seem to have failed to communicate my intent clearly. My apologies. I am all for the discussion taking place above, and for making the obligations and expectations of administrators clear, detailed, and as aligned with community consensus as humanly possible. What I objected to was doing that by making edits directly in the published page instead of copying the text here and making drafts for comments and discussion. I also don't think it is a good idea to rush to make such changes directly from a contentious issue, not because the discussion here is necessarily non-neutral, but because we will all weigh the immediate issue too heavily at the expense of wider and more general concerns (i.e. we will tend to address the last problem we had, not the next one). That wasn't an argument against having the discussion already started, but rather an argument that for the future we should try to make policy and guidance before we end up in the contentious situations, and by doing so preferably avoid getting into those situations in the first place. That is, my entire comment was about the meta-issue of how to do/don't go about it. The specifics of what is being discussed is something I will need to mull over a little more before I have anything sensible to contribute. Was that any clearer? Did it remove some or even all of your objections? --Xover (talk) 15:27, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Pretty much, thanks for the response. If you are not informed in the usual way, I was a sysop here and there is a tale in that. I love wikisource, and think I helped others who were interested in its objectives, my passion for that is turned to heart-break and have come to some conclusions after many years of careful consideration. Outlining my last attempt to discuss matters might illuminate where I am coming from, or the first, or any in between. There is some pretty iffy activity in the history of this site, don't expect to hear much about that. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 15:47, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Xover, I believe I understand our culture and can correctly express consensus on this matter with minimal discussion beforehand, which is why I edited boldly. I accept that I may be mistaken, which is why I invited others to revert if they disagree. There has been no revert; only constructive editing towards consensus. That part of this process has succeeded; it has yielded all of the value that has come from this; the value of this discussion is tending towards zero.

You're an established member of our editing community and entitled to revert (whether or not I invited you to do so) but I confess I'll be pissed off if you revert constructive edits just because you don't like the process.

Hesperian 01:30, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

@Hesperian: I won't belabour the point since this digression was about a meta-issue. I also adduce that there are obviously some changes that are so trivial or uncontroversial that even in policy and policy guidance pages they should just be boldly made, and that you are certainly far better qualified than myself to judge when that applies.
However, I'll point out that in the above discussion you argue (I think) that admins should be so sensitive to community opinion that all admin actions should be immediately self-reversed if anyone objects, but here when it comes to changing community-wide guidance for admins you feel comfortable changing it unilaterally and suggest further tweaking instead of reverting. To me these stances are incongruous and, in fact, my immediate thought is that they should be the other way around: more weight should be given to seeking and assessing community consensus before changing policy and guidance than what is needed a priori for individual admin actions: if the policy and guidance is good, most admin actions will be good, and individual mistakes can be handled (overturned) after the fact. Or put another way, admins have been vetted through nomination and confirmation—and are subject to votes of confidence—and their individual actions must be presumed to have been in accordance with policy until a consensus determines that they have made a mistake. But a change to policy or guidance cannot be presumed to have consensus until such is sought and assessed: regardless of how trusted and qualified the proposer is.
Such policy and guidance is what guides all admin actions and the community's expectation of admins; it would be illogical to be less thorough in assessing consensus for this than for a single individual admin action.
But this is all a general point and on a meta-issue. None of it should be taken as applying to any of the substance of the above discussion (it is only about the process). --Xover (talk) 07:22, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Some thoughts from Xover[edit]

Ok, I'm not sure I've fully grasped all the factors playing in here, nor sufficiently pondered the implications. But here are some initial thoughts, deliberately as comments here rather than edits to the page for several reasons (only partly related to the process digression above).

  • The term "involved" must be better defined. For example, an admin acting in their administrative capacity does not become involved by those actions. If I patrol recent changes, see someone editing against policy, attempt to guide that editor but is ignored or rebuffed, and then take some admin action like locking a page or blocking the editor, then that does not constitute being involved. The prior actions were all in my capacity as an admin, I was just using softer and non-technical means then the tools that require the +sysop bit. The actions may still turn out to be incorrect for some other reason, but they would not be a violation of the "involved" principle. Absent a definition then the view I saw expressed recently that by stepping in as an admin I ipso facto become involved will obtain, and there will be a disincentive to admins trying softer means first if discussing can be argued to be grounds for considering them involved (safer to jump straight to using the tools that are unequivocally admin actions).
  • The bullet point list seems to be doing multiple things: it is listing criteria for using the tools, and establishing primacy of sources of authority for their use, and regulating oversight and recourse for their use. I think that is probably too much work for one short list, without overloading it with subsections and modifiers. Perhaps it would be better to boil it down to something like "All use of tools must be founded in policy or by (consensus) instruction from the community" but that some policy provides room for application of discretion. I have difficulty seeing the specifically admin issue that it would make sense to seek a priori consensus for: all such are really community issues that only incidentally bear on admins in some way (i.e. if the community decides to ban someone or permanently lock a page or class of pages, then that isn't an admin issue except that you need an admin to implement the decision). An admin initiating such a discussion isn't really acting as an admin but as a community member, and for some such cases the output is new policy (all template: pages should be protected, say) that will guide admins. And I'm not sure we want the "is otherwise confident that there is community consensus" point. Isn't the goal to reduce unilateral decisions from admins?
  • I'm not sure I agree with the presumption of lack of authority for admin actions inherent in requiring admin actions to be preemptively reversed on objection rather than retroactively on consensus. For admins to be effective there must be some presumption that they have acted correctly until the community has reached a consensus otherwise. The current text presumes all admin actions are incorrect until confirmed by the community. This assumes all actors are acting constructively and in good faith (most blocked editors here do not fall into those categories), and that human beings will not have human failings (frustration and outrage can blind all of us in the short term) when a specific contentious issue is "hot". Policy is (ideally) made when all heads are cool, and an admin acting in accordance with that policy is acting correctly and on established community consensus even if someone disagrees with that policy once an individual application of it has come up. The focus then should be on judging community consensus for changing the policy, not on castigating the admin that acted on the policy the community had given him.
  • I think it needs to be made clear that admins have been vetted through nomination, periodic confirmation, and are subject to strictures and oversight in excess of the regular editor, and as such are presumed to have some measure of extra trust. A failed vote of confidence or a failed reconfirmation is an expression that that trust has been lost, which in turn implies that that trust existed in the first place. This bears on the previous point: there needs to be a presumption that they act in accordance with policy until the community decides otherwise. All the admin actions relevant in this context are inherently controversial (otherwise the tools wouldn't have been needed), so if the bar is that low then we might as well say that all admin actions should go to the community first.

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with the goals of the changes made so far (provided I understand them correctly); but I think there some issues with the text as it stands that will have unintended consequences. --Xover (talk) 10:02, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Reverted to stable version[edit]

Since my edits have been objected to[2], I have reverted back to the stable version. In my opinion all of the feedback provided so far could have been dealt with by collaboratively editing forward. I consider the objections that have led me to revert the text are pure process wonkery. An opportunity has been lost, and my appetite to participate further is zero. Hesperian 00:00, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Hmm. That is indeed a little… well, what enwp would call POINTy. Petey is entirely correct: your proposed text does open all admins up to such gaming of their every action. I suggest you try to take the frustration you (I'm assuming) feel and try to view it as "This is what Petey is worried about will happen" rather than as a cause for despair about effecting desirable changes. Their concerns are valid, so lets try to figure out how to best balance all concerns.
I have objected to the process and not the substance of the changes; and I would more characterise my comments on that as arguments in favour of a particular form of process more than an objection, per se, to the current process. If the current process (collaboratively editing the live document) is the only palatable way to progress this discussion I am entirely willing to withdraw my objection, such as it was, to facilitate progress, and to rather reserve it for some future opportunity to get up on my soapbox elsewhere.
My only comments on the actual substance of the changes is in the #Some thoughts from Xover section above, and they are there instead of edits to the live page because 1) they are insufficiently formed to be reasonable to attempt to edit in, and 2) I am sufficiently uncertain that they make sense that I feel they need honing in discussion and vetting by the community first. And, they are relative to the edited text before your revert. --Xover (talk) 05:09, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
That you have been impugning, not assuming, and I see these replies as redundant at best. I honestly thought Petey was joking with his test comment in his trolling reply elsewhere, because any "established editor" could have made a change or reverted at this page. And isn't that the substance of actual disputes involving tools, when used carelessly or with outright vindictiveness. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 06:15, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
@Hesperian, @Cygnis insignis: I started to write a reply here, but have deleted it. Let me instead check: is my input in this discussion unwelcome? I don't mean unwelcome in general or anything like that; but do you feel my contributions to this particular discussion have been unconstructive, derailing, tedious, merely stating the obvious, repeating myself, failing to understand context, or similar? I intend no accusation by that question: I just don't sense anyone engaging with what I write except in ways that signal disapproval or frustration. Since I offer my participation because I imagine it to have some value, I would refrain if that were not the case. --Xover (talk) 08:39, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
For myself, I prefer a solution. Clarity, brevity, edit the page or propose changes. What seems to be happening is bogging this down with blather, assertion and process and keeping the fairly simple clarification to admin actions from being enacted. Why do you think it would be any different to wikipedia, that being an admin imbues one some overriding authority, if they screw some lesser user around that is their business. You have been as rude af in your assumptions and aspersions, also discouraging to any solution. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 09:15, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a mess; we should not be using them as a model or standard. We can be better. --EncycloPetey (talk) 03:16, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia has its issues arising in part from the sheer size and scope of the project, and the vast potential for bias and abuse to enter into the system. I think we can be better than that here, given the rather clear boundaries of this project. BD2412 T 03:19, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
@BD2412: would you be willing to revert to the use of "straight" (un-differentiated) quotation marks, if two "established users" or indeed established with 'additional access' were in dispute about which should be used? CYGNIS INSIGNIS 16:08, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Haven't I been using straight quotation marks, generally? I don't think I have a preference, although I can see an argument for using curly apostrophes to avoid conflicting with the straight apostrophes we use for formatting, and could see an argument from there to use a style of quotation marks that matches those apostrophes. BD2412 T 16:16, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
I honestly don't know and that is why I chose the example. I should have made this clear but the query is and is not hypothetical, Everyone has an opinion on their own use, if they are an admin are they more correct. EP thinks that italic serif font should be imposed, or at least he doesn't mind that is packaged into the display preference he applies (layout 2), but only on the works he is doing afaik. If someone else decides to impose that layout on other documents, based on the fact that an admin has used it extensively, should they be able to do that without objection? My contention is that the past practices and assumptions of what one can do when they are granted additional tools has created a situation that is not conducive to collaboration and will attract an undesirable and unproductive amount of disruption by assertions and counter assertions. If you see where I am going with this, and it is not much to do with the conduct of EP or yourself. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 19:20, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
I don't understand your comment concerning: "EP thinks that italic font should be imposed". Where did that come from? I have never pushed for "italic font", and Layout 2 has nothing to do with italics. I also can't see how the issue might pertain to the current discussion. --EncycloPetey (talk) 21:01, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
I meant a serif font, and fixed that. The discussion is, in part, how "we can be better". It was not an 'issue', it is an example for anyone to demonstrate how a very probable situation could be resolved. My recollection is that you prefer that layout, so make it the default display, the inclusion of a serif font is incidental. In a hypothetical situation User X thinks that other documents should be displayed in serifs, arguing they must emulate the printed page, that it is already widely used and is [obviously] an improvement. The point is how this becomes resolved, not the myriad of possibilities where users will disagree, I know well how it plays out in practice. This is not about any particular situation, if it were I would be discussing the use of differentiated (curly) quotation marks as an example of a little things continuing to create discord. What is the current discussion in your view? CYGNIS INSIGNIS 05:30, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

{{section resolved|1=— [[user:billinghurst|billinghurst]] ''<span style="font-size:smaller">[[user talk:billinghurst|sDrewth]]</span>'' 23:18, 27 September 2019 (UTC)}}

While I sympathise with the desire to close a somewhat ignoble chapter, the wording of {{section resolved}} implies a resolution has been achieved—where in this instance the warring parties have simply exhausted their ammunition with no apparent achievement of (or even attempt to acquire) any kind of consensus.
If I am I wrong please insert some kind of evidence (a pointer to external discussion is entirely acceptable) that usable lessons have been learned.
There is no proposal, there is comment, and the comment has come to a conclusion, so what more is expected. In lieu of a proposal, it would seem that there is resolution. — billinghurst sDrewth 01:54, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: O.K. It would appear we are operating under a misunderstanding: your definition of resolution is closer to how I would use the term exhaustion. I have no objections to closing this discussion whatsoever. However it would have been nice to have been able to point to lessons learned, or a pre-existing unchallenged policy—neither of which are particularly obvious to me in this instance. Go ahead and close it anyway. I reluctantly withdraw the objection. 05:23, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
Resolved for the purposes of archiving. I have amended the template's text. I would suggest that having a conversation on the talk page would be the appropriate way to progress with a notification here of that further discussion. I added a note to this conversation on that talk page. — billinghurst sDrewth 08:51, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
Checkmark This section is considered resolved, for the purposes of archiving. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. — billinghurst sDrewth (nil all draw, bruises sustained, participants returned to status quo.)


I dunno where else to post this but can someone please block this user while we wait for a glock? It's an xwiki LTA. Praxidicae (talk) 19:57, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done , thanks for posting it here —Beleg Tâl (talk) 20:08, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Here's another needing a block: user: -Pete (talk) 23:51, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

^^^ There's some urgency to this one, they seem to be proceeding at breakneck speed. -Pete (talk) 00:08, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

OK. Same person has used addresses in these ranges so far: 159.146 (global range block to 13/9); 188.58 (three local blocks for up to 72 hours); and 5.24 (local range block for 24 hours with a narrower range on global). Total edits across the past 24 hours are well in excess of 500. Based in Turkey. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 04:40, 7 September 2019 (UTC)


Can someone please take a look at all of the pages created by Thanks, --DannyS712 (talk) 17:10, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

(non admin view) It seems to a 'purely vandalism' IP. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:35, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done , thanks for your vigilance —Beleg Tâl (talk) 17:40, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Could an oversight/revdel of the edits they made in other namspaces also be done? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:42, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
(non admin view) They've moved Special:Contributions/ but continuing the same pattern. Is this linked to the LTA above? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:50, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Blocked and nuked. Probably same individual. If they keep hopping IPs we should start considering a /16 anon-only rangeblock until they get bored. --Xover (talk) 18:32, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment Can someone please kick phab:T231750 and ask them to implement the damn abusefilter request, it would make this sort of abuse readily stoppable and quickly. I don't have my phab login with me, and I am less than polite about their thinking that I/we need to jump through hoops for a reasonable request, so my manners have been waning. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:51, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

It has been kicked, and the ability to block via abusefilter is now available. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 20:06, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

another vandal[edit]

See Page talk:United States Statutes at Large Volume 26.djvu/356 and many others. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 18:25, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: Yes check.svg Done Blocked and nuked. Probably same individual as the thread above. --Xover (talk) 18:30, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

And another one Special:Contributions/ , Range Block time? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:49, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

And can someone also do something about the talk pages for these vandals? and revoke talk page access for these IP's?

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:58, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

And they hop again , this time to Special:Contributions/ (sigh) :( , I am wondering if it's vandal script.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:13, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Now Special:Contributions/ - I think a range block is needed, with a suitably worded block notice ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:20, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
A different ISP?, but the same pattern. Special:Contributions/ ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:27, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Special:Contributions/ . ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:34, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Special:Contributions/, We might need another range block? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:42, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Special:Contributions/ ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:47, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Arbitary break[edit]

Special:Contributions/ Is WMF T&S or Legal aware? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:56, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
The Stewards seem to be dealing with it. The current wave of petty vandalism doesn't rise to T&S/Legal levels of intervention. It's mainly just annoying. --Xover (talk) 21:05, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Special:Contributions/ - As I said is WMF Legal aware? This is getting silly. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:06, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Special:Contributions/ ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:13, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
@Billinghurst, @Beleg Tâl: as other admins who have edited in the last hour while this was happening. Seems like numerous /16 rangeblocks will be necessary. Mahir256 (talk) 21:26, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Special:Contributions/ ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:51, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Special:Contributions/ Is there a way to block an entire provider? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:58, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Rangeblock for multiple large ranges (/22, /17, /18, /19) placed[edit]

To slow down the individual IP-hopping around in the above two threads, I have placed a 24-hour rangeblock on (that's every IP address from to The range belongs to TurkNet Iletisim Hizmetleri A.S (a Turkish ISP), and will affect all their customers in this range. They also own an adjacent range that was used in this latest episode (see thread above), so if they start up again from that range we can add a block for The route for this ISP is but blocking a /17 is essentially the nuclear option so let's try to avoid that if at all possible. --Xover (talk) 20:32, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Heh. Nevermind. The Stewards on meta are less gunshy than I and have placed a week-long global rangeblock for that /17. That ought to take care of it. --Xover (talk) 20:35, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Since they've switched to their phone and are hopping all over that range I've added a 24-hour rangeblock on too. This mobile operator has further ranges, but /17 is 32k IP addresses already so the potential for collateral damage is pretty bad already. --Xover (talk) 20:54, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  • And (a different Turkish mobile operator). --Xover (talk) 21:02, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  • --Xover (talk) 21:09, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Note that I'm going to have to log out soon, so any new jumps will have to be dealt with by one of the other admins that have been playing whack-a-mole this fine day. --Xover (talk) 21:14, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. I have added a couple of other blocks (all in Special:log/block). I have also kicked the global filter that is in place to disallow the edits (special:abuselog).
The user has been blocked for two weeks over at en.wikiquote so now he has moved here inserting text on different pages. Would you also consider blocking,,,, and for two weeks? -- Tegel (talk) 22:02, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
@Tegel: I am more tempted to implement a filter that disallows, and temporarily blocks the editing IP address for the known vandalism. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:38, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
In fact as a temporary relieving measure special:abusefilter/38 implemented (local import of m:special:abusefilter/219). tegel I think that for very specific abuse defence that we should be looking to update the global policy around global filters being able to temporarily block, though to have it as a minimal amount of time to allow local communities to deploy their defences. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:45, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
@Tegel: Think that there is probably scope for use of "ccnorm" in the filter. As messaged to you, I will have a play later. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:53, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

IP posting gibberish...[edit]

I'd like a second view from an administrator:- Special:Contributions/ ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:36, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

The user has been globally blocked.--Prosfilaes (talk) 18:06, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
So can an admin now handle the junk page creations? and oversight/revdel other edits to apply DENY, thanks..ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:26, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

WS:AIV request[edit] - Manually reported.

Mass creation of talk pages, with near identical pattern to an existing known LTA. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:48, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Now spamming 'junk' on their user talk page, please consider revoking talk page access. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:59, 25 September 2019 (UTC) - Manually reported.
Mass creation of talk pages, with near identical pattern to an existing known LTA.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:01, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Fixed, and some blocks in place. Thanks, and thanks for your clean up. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:40, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Temporary partial block on user:2405:9800:BC11:BD0D:F85D:7D62:6A92:28C9 and[edit]

Due to the user recreating deleted works under discussion at WS:CV, I have placed a partial block in place to restrict this user from editing in the main namespace. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:09, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

and I have just done the same to user: for the same reason. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:11, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Copy and paste vandal returned[edit]

Hi to all. Our copy and paste vandal is back, and we will simply need to be quick to shut down the Turkish IPs that are abusing. Not to be concerned about going to heavy for short periods of time. — billinghurst sDrewth 21:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment @Beeswaxcandle: special:abusefilter/39 and I have put some explanatory notes, and it is not not content-related. Whilst the blocks are in place it will only impact the single namespace. If they return at the expiry of the blocks, or if we remove the blocks, then we can see how the remainder work, I have batch tested, and tested against those flagged against the global filter. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:35, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Turkish IP addresses used for vandalism[edit]

Blocking these IP ranges for an extended period of time

We will need to be watching for valid editing requests on user talk pages, and manage the invalid editing. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:23, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Author:Sukavich Rangsitpol[edit]

I have just indef protected this author page and the corresponding Talk page from editing by anonymous editors. Both pages have been the target of multiple attempts to circumvent the copyvio decision made at WS:CV#Thailand PD Exempt and speeches. Billinghurst has attempted to explain multiple times to the various IP addresses being used that this behaviour is unacceptable. I have elected to go to the next stage. If another Admin feels I have been too hasty and would prefer to have another attempt at behaviour modification, I am happy for them to overturn the protection (or change its timeframe). Beeswaxcandle (talk) 09:58, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

No issue from me, the list has been built. When they continue, I am just going to start further restricting their access. There are only so many times they should need to be told. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:06, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
{{support}}, and thanks. I would have proposed this course of action had you not stepped in. If the problem escalates we might even consider proposing that all new texts for this author be pre-vetted by the community prior to creation. Most of their works are clearly not PD, but there are a few who could plausibly be so depending on exactly where you draw the line on EdictGov-type exemptions (see the one I recently felt should probably be undeleted). But the biggest problem there is that the information about the source of the text is completely missing or too poor to make good assessments. If we temporarily reverse the default (permitted unless some problem is identified) for texts by this author we can make those who wish to promote Rangsitpol's works do the legwork on finding the missing information to determine whether it is PD or not. As it's not an available approach under existing policy, something like that would presumably need to be put to the community for an ad hoc vote. --Xover (talk) 13:48, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Seeing the commentary and activity from other registered users, I am guessing that this is not a localised issue. The simple means to host these works is to get OTRS permission from the author for a creative commons license to be applied. At this point, the situation has been so problematic, that we set the bar for what we know is clearly okay. We don't need the grief. — billinghurst sDrewth 21:09, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Request for deletion[edit]

Delete Index:Bohemian Review, 1917–Czechoslovak Review, May 1919.djvu, please. There are some pages missing and it is going to be replaced by individual volumes, such as Index:The Bohemian Review, vol1, 1917.djvu. Thank you. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 22:06, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Will let you have managed at Commons. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:25, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Thank you very much. I think I will keep the file at Commons, as it has some other advantages, like coloured title pages, so it can be useful to have there both. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 06:27, 8 October 2019 (UTC)


Please remove talk page access. Thank you :) 大诺史 (talk) 16:20, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

@大诺史: Yes check.svg Done , and thanks. --Xover (talk) 16:29, 12 October 2019 (UTC)