From Wikisource
Jump to: navigation, search
Scriptorium Scriptorium (Help) Archives, Last archive
The Scriptorium is Wikisource's community discussion page. This subpage is especially designated for requests for help from more experienced Wikisourcers. Feel free to ask questions or leave comments. You may join any current discussion or a new one. Project members can often be found in the #wikisource IRC channel webclient.

This page is automatically archived by Wikisource-bot

Have you seen our help pages and FAQs?

Does formatting have to be fully faithful to the original?[edit]

I ask because I've already done partial digitization of a book elsewhere. I want to continue it here but my work reformats the original slightly to be more legible (IMO) for the 21st century: link vs. link. Suzukaze-c (talk) 21:10, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes and No:
  • When we transcribe in the Page namespace, as you are currently doing, we want to match the formatting of the original as closely as is possible and reasonable. The faithful transcriptions are then transcluded into the Main namespace to provide a text that matches the original.
  • However, we do allow for "annotated" versions (policy details are still under review), and I think it would be reasonable to create a second "annotated" version using the friendlier formatting. This would not use the transcription in the Page namespace directly, but would be copy-pasted to a new location in the Main namespace as a second copy of the work. The second copy would have notes in the header of each page explaining exactly how (and why) the formatting differs from the original.
  • Also: Please note that we strip the Google notice page from the front of works which we host. The notice is neither part of the original, nor presents any supportable claim of copyright. It is better to have this change made before editing individual pages, since it will affect page numbering.
--EncycloPetey (talk) 21:54, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Re: Encyclopetey's "we match the formatting of the original as closely as it possible", I would add that we try to capture the intent of the author while ignoring the contribution of the typographer. We don't care what font was chosen, we don't care about line breaks, etc. Hesperian 23:52, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Legibility and faithfulness to the text are our drivers. So allowing the user's browser, in the user's viewing platform (wide monitor or small telephone) to do the work! Within that we may use a template like {{blackletter}} (blackletter) to represent some part of the work, we wouldn't force a change from how a user has set their default browser typeface nor size, with all our text sizing being relative proportional. — billinghurst sDrewth 02:50, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for the answers. I suppose I'll try to match the original for now. (also, what software should I use to remove the Google notice...) Suzukaze-c (talk) 01:42, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
I've never learned how to manipulate a DjVu file myself, and unless you know how to edit DjVu files properly (it can be tricky), then it's best to post a request for someone's assistance. We have a few skilled hands here who can help with that. Learning how to do this might make for a good talk at a Wikisource gathering. --EncycloPetey (talk) 02:15, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
I notice there's a section for requests of this sort at Help:Internet_Archive#Google_Books that seems to be rather neglected. Suzukaze-c (talk) 02:50, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Vast bulk of people here are neither net nor image geeks, they are interested in the magic of the word, and its transcription. Predominantly none of us has worried about the image scans having the Google component, and as it doesn't affect our transcription and presentation, we politely ignore it. Noting that I do have a little search and replace script that deletes that component on the occasions that it gets reproduced by the OCR which I use as part of my general text clean-up when proofreading. — billinghurst sDrewth 03:03, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
(forest and trees <sigh>) Oh, you mean the front notice page. I blank the text, and mark it as a blank page. I have been gently asking for some time for someone to build a labs tool that could excise the front page, and replace it with a blank page. No-one has considered it of sufficient importance to progress. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:47, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: Could we use User:Wikisource-bot at Commons? It would be possible to tag the djvu page with some template and let the bot run periodically on tagged pages?— Mpaa (talk) 14:40, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
@Mpaa: I had thought that Commons would like to do something similar to rotatebot, so I had thought a new tool. That said, I see no reason why we couldn't use Wikisource-bot. I don't see an issue and we are not necessarily needing bot permissions (overt editing is okay) and as long as we show how we are going to prevent/manage abuse, so presumably some template tagging and/or an oauth permission. <shrug> — billinghurst sDrewth 22:43, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
If you're willing to try it, the easiest way to do it is with DjView, see Help:DjVu files#Removing a copyright page, though that description could do to be fleshed out a bit. The best place to ask for someone to do it for you is probably the Repairs (and moves) section of the Scriptorium. Also: while we don't really care if the page is present here on Wikisource, I have seen the folks on Wikimedia Commons flag files for deletion if they contain this file, so that is also something to keep in mind. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 03:13, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
@Beleg Tâl: I think that I have complained sufficiently that they have stopped deleting those works. I went through the argument that an author's work that is in the public domain should not be prevented due to Google slapping a generic page on the front. The deletions and nominations have seemed to have stopped. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:50, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Apropos removing the Google frontsheet. The most practical way is to ignore it and treat it as without text. But some editors may still want its removal. This should not hinder proofreading, because it can be later replaced with a blank. Some of us can do it, e.g. User:Mpaa, User:Jpez and myself. I suggest putting up a list of such books at some place, so that when someone capable wants to do it, he/she can gradually progress through the list. Hrishikes (talk) 06:56, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Personally, I prefer having the page removed rather than replaced. Its presence affects the numbering such that odd page numbers in the work appear on even page numbers in the file (and vice versa), and this becomes confusing in a work of any length. --EncycloPetey (talk) 13:37, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
The quickest method (IMO) is to use the command line DjVuLibre tools, as so: [1]. Download the tools, put djvm.exe in the same folder as the DjVu file, and run djvm.exe -d foo.djvu 1 in a command prompt, where foo.djvu is the name of your file. (Edit: ah, this exact method is laid out at Help:DjVu files#Removing a copyright page.) clpo13(talk) 23:44, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

What about Page:An alphabetic dictionary of the Chinese language in the Foochow dialect.djvu/31, where Chinese text couldn't be placed inline due to technical difficulties during printing and had to be moved to the footer? Suzukaze-c (talk) 08:43, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I would preserve this formatting; it should be straightforward using footnotes. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:18, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Adding a work without a scan[edit]

Hi, I want to add the poem "The Lark Ascending" by George Meredith. It's public domain, since Meredith died in 1909. Here's a link to the text. Do I need to find a paper copy to scan, or can I work off of the online version? Thanks, Icebob99 (talk) 03:01, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

It is permitted to add works without a scan,. However, scans of "The Lark Ascending" are readily available, so I strongly urge you to use one of them. The link you point to is from A Victorian Anthology, 1837–1895 ed. Edmund Clarence Stedman, which has several scans: [2] [3]. You may find this collection more manageable :) —Beleg Tâl (talk) 03:51, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
... and I've started off Index:Poems and lyrics of the joy of earth.djvu so that we can get a scan-backed copy. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 04:01, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
... and here's where you can add the poem: Page:Poems and lyrics of the joy of earth.djvu/80Beleg Tâl (talk) 04:13, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

/*Cassell's Illustrated History of England vol 5 */[edit]

I and two others cannot fix the 1st page marked in Problematic-Purple on Index:Cassell's Illustrated History of England vol 5.djvu . It is very short, probably needs something like text float over the image. Will someone smarter than us please assist with this? —Maury (talk) 21:50, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

I want to personally THANK whoever fixed the above problem. It is very kind of you and you also aided Wikisource itself. I had thought nobody would help with it. Kindest regards, Maury —Maury (talk) 13:30, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
A 2nd complicated image has reared its head and caused confusion and stress. It is similar to the above. Will someone please take on this one? It is the only one marked purple for problematic.

Volume 5 —Maury (talk) 01:14, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

That one I would just float in the center with no text wrapping, at any appropriate gap in the text. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 03:44, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Help with MediaWiki:PageNumbers.js[edit]

@George Orwell III: @Hesperian: Hi! I've imported dynamic layouts to Ukrainian Wikisource and it's mostly works but I have following problem. Dynamic layout applying for Ukrainian version of Help:Beginner's guide to reliability. I'm understanding that layout applying because this page including Template:PageStatus that create the table used as indicator of ability apply dynamic layout, but in English Wikisource there are no dynamic layout in Help: namespace. Could you please explain in which way unexpected dynamic layout disabled in Help here? Just for note: in Ukrainian Wikisource we have the same namespace with the same index, code was mostly copy-pasted (and localized for Ukrainian). Artem.komisarenko (talk) 14:01, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Index pages which is not linked with Authors page[edit]

I need small help from you. I need a maintenance category of a list Index pages which is not linked with Authors page. Normally we add each index page linked with {{small scan link|}} template in authors page. Can it be possible to add some code in Mediawiki:Proofreadpage index template, to create this category?? Jayantanth (talk) 06:36, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Except some people use {{scan}}... --Mukkakukaku (talk) 08:09, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Black letter Heading[edit]

The Authour's Apology for his Book. : 0

The Authour's Apology for his Book. : 1

The Authour's Apology for his Book. : 2

The Authour's Apology for his Book. : 3

The Authour's Apology for his Book. : 4

The actual heading on Page:The Pilgrim's Progress, the Holy War, Grace Abounding Chunk1.djvu/9 uses a modern style stroked k glyph. Suggestions or do I just ignore this? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:48, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Needed to update my version of the underlying fonts (blush), But the {{blackletter }} template doesn't account for the character variant uppercase A used in the work. Can someone technical look into this, and the issue or the routnda r used in {{rr}} ? Thanks.
Blackletter will look slightly different depending upon the locally selected font used by the viewer's browser. And forcing a particular font from our end is rather counter to what we try to do. I wouldn't worry about it. After all, we're not preserving the line indentations at the start of each stanza, nor the amount of space between stanzas, so fuss over the typographical style of a lowercase "k" is a minor issue. --EncycloPetey (talk) 12:33, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:06, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

The upper case issue would seem to need cv04 , If I am reading the font's documentation correctly. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:10, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Which I can't seem to get working using the documentation provided. Suggestions?ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:53, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
I agree with User:EncycloPetey. Every blackletter font is different, and there is no point worrying about the individual glyphs. A and k should be sufficient in the vast majority of cases regardless of what the original scan's A and k look like.
The only time it would matter, is when the text is deliberately choosing one form over the other. For example, say a book on calligraphy that wants to demonstrate the difference between blackletter forms of A, or in which the author states that they deliberately chose one form of glyph over another for some reason or other. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:16, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Like with the facsimile edition elswhere on Wikisource which is why I asked about {{rr}} as well :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:20, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
No, not like a facsimile edition. A facsimile is trying to reproduce every feature of a work, including margins, spacing, alignment, fonts, and all the things we don't preserve on Wikisource. There are some features over which we simply have no control. There are some features we can try to preserve, but at some point we have to admit that we can't control font and typography to such a degree in an electronic medium. Which is why we don't usually worry about ligatures other than æ and œ, for example. If you're not preserving the spacing between stanzas or the line indentation, then the shape of select uses of "r" shouldn't really be of concern, should they? --EncycloPetey (talk) 15:17, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
You misunderstood, I was refering to a very specfic edition where the point Beleg Tâl made DID apply in that one specfic instance. Generally of course you point is fully undderstood. ShakespeareFan00 (talk)
Facsimile editions are an odd case. We do not try to produce facsimiles on Wikisource. Preserving line breaks, fonts, indents, and other items that are against WS:MOS are not done when transcribing facsimiles. Items like {{ls}} or {{rr}} are a bit different; some editors would replace with an s or r, but there is no consensus against using ſ or ꝛ. In the case of the Pilgrims Progress project, the author points out the fact that he uses ꝛ in certain places, so in that case the use of ꝛ is more appropriate. However, he also states that he is deliberately using a font similar to the original, and paper that is similar to the original, neither of which makes sense to try to preserve. Since he says nothing about choosing A over A or k over k, which are essentially differences of font, I would avoid worrying about which to use. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 16:20, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
For the sake of readability, can we just leave the heading as a normal font? Is there a reason in this case to use blackletter, especially since we're not supposed to be producing facsimiles, as pointed out by Beleg Tâl? Because the variant chosen now appears to read -- on my computer and browser, at least -- "The Author's Apology for his Boot." --Mukkakukaku (talk) 18:55, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
I think that avoiding blackletter altogether is a bit much; however, your comment is exactly why {{blackletter}} substitutes glyphs with more readable ones by default. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 20:59, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

lay out of index[edit]

Hello, can anyone please help me with the index on this page (and the following) of A Treatise of Taxes and Contributions by William Petty. I can't find out how I can get the page numbers on the same line as the text. What mistake do I make? Just the hint, please! Thanks, --Dick Bos (talk) 10:55, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I've updated the page. You want to use {{float right}} to have the element float to the right of the line, instead of {{right}} which creates a new right-aligned paragraph. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:42, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
Thank you very much, User:Beleg Tâl! That was exactly what I was looking for. Greetings, --Dick Bos (talk) 10:10, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

NOP template[edit]

I have a request to make. Is it at all possible that the documentation for this template can be adjusted to include some mention when using the <poem> and </poem> tags. I knew there was something somewhere where someone had mentioned at some time about the correct procedure to ensure breaks between stanzas. I have been struggling with my recent validation by putting <br/> on the second page. I knew this was not really right, although it worked. I finally asked "the right question" in search and found the answer on a userpage Sept 2016.

Also by monitoring userpage talks, I learned that NOP has to be on a line by itself, yet documentation does not state this. For newcomers, relying on Scriptorium help and userpages for information may not be the easiest way to process transcription. Unless all you who have been for a while really like repeating yourselves over and over again on the same issues(?) Humbug26 (talk) 23:01, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

As far as I have seen, the nop template has following uses:
  1. End of first page, for page-spanning paragraph breaks
  2. Blank line + nop at end of first page, for page-spanning stanza breaks in poems
  3. Start of second page, for page-spanning tables
  4. After line-break causing template (center, block center, image placement templates etc.) at the end of a page, otherwise page number on left margin may not be displayed on transclusion.
There is one more use I have seen, but right now I cannot remember. Hrishikes (talk) 01:51, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
The stanza break for poetry was discussed here, in case you were curious; Wikisource:Scriptorium/Help/Archives/2014#Poems and page breaks. It's just one of those magic templates that you start putting everywhere when things just aren't looking the way they're supposed to. </joke> --Mukkakukaku (talk) 01:57, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
There's some info on {{nop}} and <poem /> on Help:Poetry#Poem_extension, and I've added a link to this in the nop template docs. Feel free to expand with anything that's missing. Sam Wilson 02:01, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
template:nop is essentially a disruptive template to mediawiki's wish to crunch whitespace and everything. Essentially we utilise it as a placeholder of whitespace, and is needed more at the Wikisources due to our corruption of the main editing pane for our evil purposes. — billinghurst sDrewth 06:06, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
Thank you all for the excellent info. I didn't realize that the Help:Poetry had been changed recently to show a solution to the issue I was having (just about the same time as I was grappling with the issue...hmmm). As always there are a number of ways to process this; everybody has their favourite. Thanks for updating NOP documentation with a link. Humbug26 (talk) 19:17, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Which type of page?[edit]

It is requested to see pages Page:Indian Copyright Act 1957.djvu/1 and Page:Indian Copyright Act 1957.djvu/2. I have made edits/proofreading of these pages differently. The first one is in the wiki format type. The page 2 is a normal proof reading without wiki formatting.

Please communicate as what type of page is preferred here. Type /1 or type /2 , so that I can go ahead with that type of editing/proofreading.


--V.narsikar (talk) 12:01, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

@V.narsikar: We try to be truer to the work, and not use wiki-headings, so more the second page, than the first. If you have a look at Help:Templates you will see the templates that we predominantly use. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:47, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Tables across page breaks[edit]

I noticed a problem of displaying tables across page breaks: if trying to apply all formatting as described in the Help:Page breaks#Tables_across_page_breaks,—as I have done, for example, on pages of Index:Special 301 Report 2010.pdf: page 53 (as in index) / 49 (as in the report itself) and page 54 / 50,—then such problems are present—as on the transcluded page Special 301 Report/2010/Annex 2:

  • the page link [ 50 ] should point to the page 54 / 50, but instead of this the link points to;
  • the top row of the second part of the table, which is on the second page, is "eaten up" and not displayed: page 54 / 50—the top row is "Portugal March 2010", on the transclusion it should be after "Netherlands March 2010" (the bottom row of the previous page 53 / 49) and before "Spain March 2010", but on the transcluded page the row "Portugal March 2010" is absent (while displaying).

The same problems I saw also on other pages, and today I tried fixed them, for example—on the front page of the same 2010 Special 301 Report, in edits: first page and second page, and it seems that this works—now the frint page is displayed properly.

Are these issues some problems of the Mediawiki engine? If so—may someone register bug on the Mediawiki developers (if it has not been registered yet)? Or Mediawiki works fine, but the help page Help:Page breaks is somewhat obsolete and needs to be updated, or it's just me that I missed something and did something wrong on that formatting? --Nigmont (talk) 12:11, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

@Nigmont: I am guessing (without looking) that you have row markers at the end of the body page. If you just end a table with last bit of text (then close it out in the footer after a blank line), then start the new body with

|text text text

then you should have no problems. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:51, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

"@Nigmont: <grrr> some have been asked to change their text due to that fault, and seem to have failed to amend. I have amended the help page. (The page is still pretty busy.) — billinghurst sDrewth 13:05, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

  • @Billinghurst: thank you very much! In particular, thanks for the hint that a blank line is to be inserted in the footer before "|}", instead of adding "|-" wrapped in "noinclude" at the end of main body of the page as I did; and also thanks for updating the help page. --Nigmont (talk) 13:52, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Sacred Books of the East header[edit]

Anyone who has more ability in this matter want to try to construct a header for the above books, like for instance the page at Page:Sacred Books of the East - Volume 1.djvu/426? I think it is probably beyond me, unfortunately. John Carter (talk) 15:05, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

@John Carter: Done. In this book, J of current standard is written G (italic G) and Ṁ (w:Anusvara) as M (italic M). Hrishikes (talk) 15:25, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
The page header looks fine to me. (sorry, saw it after Hrishikes' edit) On an unrelated note, however, is there a reason you are using two line breaks instead of a paragraph break between paragraphs? —Beleg Tâl (talk) 15:22, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
Because I couldn't get anything else to work correctly, he responded sheepishly? John Carter (talk) 16:21, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
Normal paragraphs should work correctly. I've put them on the page in question. Where does it cause problems? —Beleg Tâl (talk) 17:49, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Template:Right sidenote[edit]

The Template:Right sidenote is not working properly I suppose. OR there may be something I am missing. Can anyone fix-up the issue of display of the pages in Page:Indian Copyright Act 1957.djvu/5 and Page:Indian Copyright Act 1957.djvu/5. The scanned copy gets mixed up with the matter.While previewing it looks alright but after saving it gets mixed up. Please help.

--V.narsikar (talk) 13:26, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

The right sidenote has never displayed properly in the Page: namespace. It should look fine when transcluded.
However, I notice you've added hard line breaks at some very odd locations, and have not joined up hyphenated words. Please see Help:Beginner's guide to typography. --EncycloPetey (talk) 14:06, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
The use of left and right sidenotes gets really ugly when transcluded — saw-tooth effect. You can use the {{RL sidenote}} variation which puts in the right in Page: ns, and repositions when transcluded to main ns. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:21, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Thanks everybody for helping and guiding.

--V.narsikar (talk) 14:04, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Help needed from ro.wikisource[edit]

Hi. I decided to write here since on ro.wikisource there is virtually no sysop (or any experimented active user). My intention is to transcript a law. At ro.wikipedia a sysop suggested there is a transcription mechanism in which you get to have the scanned page you want to transcript on the left and the editor on the right. However, he didn't know how to use it. And that brings me to ask you for a little help. How do I use the transcription mechanism? Thank you! Wintereu 23:40, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

We have two articles with instructions that would be useful to you:
Those should tell you everything you need to know. We will be happy to answer any questions. For examples on ro.wikisource, see ro:Categorie:Index. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 23:53, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Presidential Executive Orders[edit]

I am making a list of presidential executive orders that include unnumbered executive orders. Can anyone help memake this article a full and complete list. Here is the link to the edit page. I have the first four executive orders of Washington so far. Here's the link to edit:

unsigned comment by PoliticalBuff (talk) .

This needs to be in the Portal: namespace rather than the Main: namespace. This is because List of … is not a published work. There already is a Portal:Executive Orders that could be expanded. I note there is also a Wikiproject for the Executive Orders. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 17:23, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
@PoliticalBuff: As pointed out above, there are already some editors who have been working on that (myself included--I also work on Commons and Wikipedia on the topic). I'll be happy to work with you. For what it's worth, all executive orders are numbered and published in the Federal Register. You may be thinking of presidential memoranda or proclamations, which are not always numbered (although memoranda are if they are published in the Federal Register). —Justin (koavf)TCM 18:12, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
I think that it is worth also mentioning Wikisource:For Wikipediansbillinghurst sDrewth 22:44, 11 February 2017 (UTC)