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How to upload a local copy of File:Hector Macpherson - Herschel (1919).djvu?[edit]

When I worked on this, I thought it was a US-only publication, so no problem having it on Commons. However, it turns out that it was by a British author who died less than 70 years ago, so @ShakespeareFan00: nominated for deletion on Commons. I just tried uploading a copy here, but I get the message "A file with this name exists already in the shared file repository. If you still want to upload your file, please go back and use a new name." - but uploading with a new name would presumably break the link with the proofread pages. Can someone help sort this out, please? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:10, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Because you are aware of the issue, I've withdrawn the deletion nomination, Once localised the file can be removed on Commons. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:33, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
@Mike Peel: usually asking on WS:S and often adding a ping to me. I have moved the file here, so please pop into the file and update it for local conditions, and add a {{do not move to commons|expiry=year of death + 71}}billinghurst sDrewth 11:01, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you! Mike Peel (talk) 18:49, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Table in footnote[edit]

Does anyone have a solution to make the table appear in the footnote on Page:America's Highways 1776–1976.djvu/56? I can get a table to embed within normal reference tags, but because there's a endnote reference within that footnote, I need to use {{#tag:ref|...|group=N}} for the footnote. Imzadi 1979  09:10, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

@Imzadi1979: mw:Extension:Cite can be such an ugly beast and a source of constant frustration with its ordering of how it (mis)handles wikitext. In that situation it takes the pipe in the open table statement as a pipe in the #tag, rather than dealing with the table first. The means to force this is to use {{!}} which the system interprets as a | and gets through the wiki fight. I did the replacement, though did not check that I had it perfect, so will leave you to review that. — billinghurst sDrewth 14:23, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: thank you! I'd have eventually thought of that someday, and now I'll definitely remember that solution should this arrise again in any of the remaining hundreds of pages in the book. Imzadi 1979  22:32, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
@Imzadi1979: no point in you getting the same scarred forehead. It is not that usual a required solution thankfully. — billinghurst sDrewth 07:40, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Anonymous/unknown UK copyrights; whether to include interesting back matter[edit]

I am interested in transcribing The Gallows and the Lash (1897) by Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner, published in London. You can see it on HathiTrust, although I don't have HT membership so would be downloading the PDF from Google Books for convenience.

The work itself is {{PD-old-70-1923}}, so fine on Commons. But included at the end, on pages 46 and 47, are two manifestos by the Humanitarian League. These are attributed to the League, not any named person or persons. I could not find any named authors from a basic Google search. They are not part of Bonner's work, but are interesting and relevant to it, and are included in the book because it was published by the League. My questions are:

  1. Should the manifestos be included with the final transcluded work? (If not, I can delete those pages from the scan and upload everything to Commons, fine.)
  2. If so, are they PD in the UK as e.g. c:Template:PD-UK-unknown? (So the scan can go on Commons) or should I just upload locally as PD-1923?

Thanks in advance. --BethNaught (talk) 19:28, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Anonymous works published in the UK are PD 95 years after publication. I might include them as a separate transcluded work with the appropriate license on their own. --EncycloPetey (talk) 21:20, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Could you point me to the appropriate license tags for that please? BethNaught (talk) 07:40, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think {{PD-anon-1923}} applies. Although honestly I’d agree with Prosfilaes and simply include the section with the full work since that’s how it was published. χchi (talk) 11:51, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure it does apply; UK anonymous copyright law is more complicated than usual. I'll see what I can make of CDPA 1988 (text Crown Copyright, OGL v3):
  • §9 provides:

(4) For the purposes of this Part a work is of “unknown authorship” if the identity of the author is unknown or, in the case of a work of joint authorship, if the identity of none of the authors is known.
(5) For the purposes of this Part the identity of an author shall be regarded as unknown if it is not possible for a person to ascertain his identity by reasonable inquiry; but if his identity is once known it shall not subsequently be regarded as unknown.

  • §10:

(1)In this Part a “work of joint authorship” means a work produced by the collaboration of two or more authors in which the contribution of each author is not distinct from that of the other author or authors.
(3)References in this Part to the author of a work shall, except as otherwise provided, be construed in relation to a work of joint authorship as references to all the authors of the work.

  • §12:

(2)Copyright expires at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the author dies, subject as follows.
(3)If the work is of unknown authorship, copyright expires— (a)at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was made, or (b)if during that period the work is made available to the public, at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which it is first so made available, subject as follows.
(4)Subsection (2) applies if the identity of the author becomes known before the end of the period specified in paragraph (a) or (b) of subsection (3).
(8)The provisions of this section are adapted as follows in relation to a work of joint authorship or a work of co-authorship—(a)the reference in subsection (2) to the death of the author shall be construed—(i)if the identity of all the authors is known, as a reference to the death of the last of them to die, and (ii)if the identity of one or more of the authors is known and the identity of one or more others is not, as a reference to the death of the last whose identity is known; (b)the reference in subsection (4) to the identity of the author becoming known shall be construed as a reference to the identity of any of the authors becoming known;...

The first hurdle is making a "reasonable inquiry". IANAL so I don't know if moderate online research counts, but I'd be surprised if would stand up in court.
If we assume the author(s) are unknown, then indeed the works are PD in the UK.
If we assume that (some of) the people listed as founding members at w:Humanitarian League are co-authors of The Manifesto of the Humanitarian League, but there are no known other authors, then since they all died >70 years ago, it is PD.
The same considerations apply to the Manifesto of the Criminal Law and Prisons Department, except that we do not have any hints from Wikipedia about who the authors might be.
This is such a mess. As a Brit, I now wouldn't feel comfortable uploading or working on the manifestos, but it seems people prefer I not exclude them either. I guess I won't be working on this any time soon. Sorry for wasting people's time on this. BethNaught (talk) 18:46, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
I'd include them with the full work as part of the full work as published.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:15, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
+1 — billinghurst sDrewth 13:09, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Template for dotted lines with multiple columns?[edit]

Hi, could anybody suggest a more useful template than {{dotted TOC line}} (which is obviously not designed for this purpose, but is the closest thing I know of) for this text? As in, one that permits two different columns at the right-hand end? (Note, the use of the template is about halfway down, there are many changes in that one edit). -Pete (talk) 22:26, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Not sure if it's the best way, but you could do the table using ordinary table syntax and use {{dotted cell}} where needed. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 02:02, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
See Special:Diff/7353903 for my suggestion using the col4 parameters. However, this is a bit of a hack since it’s not actually a TOC. Beleg Tâl’s suggestion is probably better: Special:Diff/7353945. [[User:|χchi]] (talk) 12:01, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
Or just don't fuss trying to do dot leaders. They an unnecessary complication and we have never required their reproduction. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:06, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you User:Beleg Tâl & User:billinghurst. Looks like there's lots to learn about how this family of templates works, but by copying your example I was able to "fake it" and I think the results, if not perfect, are pretty good. If you have a moment please take a look at the tables here? Report of the Park Board, Portland, Oregon (1903)/Annual report of the Park Board One detail I'd like to address would be to specify the column width, so that when one table closely follows another, the columns in the two tables align. A small detail, but I think it would make the document more readable. -Pete (talk) 20:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

I should be a little more specific. I do (sort of) understand how to use the width parameters of {{ts}} or in cells that do not use {{ts}}. But the specific collection of tables in this document presents a rather challenging case. For instance, see how the tables align in the original on this page. The table that begins "Warrants drawn..." introduces a third column of numbers, which butts into the text column, so that all the numerical columns align in a certain way. How can we replicate that characteristic, without rigidly specifying the width in pixels (which I think is something we should generally avoid)? -Pete (talk) 20:35, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
To me, it isn't a series of tables to me it looks like one looooong table with the formatting of financials. I would have looked to set it that way, and then used colspans. Then again I could just be crazy. — billinghurst sDrewth 02:31, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Not a bad idea @Billinghurst:, I might give that a try! Also...meant to ping @Χ: before as well, but missed you. -Pete (talk) 02:37, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
That worked really well, @Billinghurst:. Thanks again for the suggestion. Just wrapped this up and added to "new texts." -Pete (talk) 18:38, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

This page needs help with a chemical formula correction[edit]

Thanks in advance. — Ineuw talk 04:40, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

There is no particularly "good" way of entering structural formulae within the restrictions of <ce> (much better to use an image approach.) Old-fashioned <math> can help a bit:
     &\,|      \\

looks thus:

- not great but a bit better? 06:13, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
It is great!. Thank you, whoever you are mysterious stranger. — Ineuw talk 07:01, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Very clever! Furthermore, in a math tag, to avoid italics, you can do \text{CH}. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 07:05, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

DjVu from Internet Archive[edit]

The scans for Index:A History Of Mathematical Notations Vol I (1928).djvu are often cropped which hides a part of the text (see this page). I found another version at but I don't know how to get the DjVu file. Can someone help me? χchi (talk) 14:10, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

@X:, there is a "show all" link you may not have seen at the bottom of the list of files. It'll take you to this page, where you will see the DJVU file. -Pete (talk) 14:49, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
But the only files I can see are djvu.txt and djvu.xml. Which one should be used? χchi (talk) 15:13, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
@Χ: There is no djvu there. You have three options. You can download the pdf and create djvu offline; and then overwrite the currently uploaded file with the new one. Second, you can shift the file from IA to Commons with the IA upload tool under a new name; djvu will be created in transit; then the current index will need deletion. Third, you can shift the pdf to Commons using the url2commons tool. Hrishikes (talk) 15:29, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Sorry @X:, I didn't look closely enough before answering. Looks like you got a good answer from Hrishikes though. -Pete (talk) 20:01, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks @Peteforsyth, @Hrishikes: Is it possible to replace File:A History Of Mathematical Notations Vol I (1928).djvu with the new File:History Of Mathematical Notations Vol I (1928).djvu and move the Pages accordingly? The Pages should be incremented by 1. χchi (talk) 13:30, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@Χ:, you might consider uploading the new DJVU file as a "new upload" to the original file name, rather than creating a separate file on Commons, if the new file is overall an improvement. (Or if you don't, you might want to nominate the old file for deletion at Commons.) As far as incrementing, it's my understanding that there's no automated way to do that (or at least, no easy automated method). Since you only have about a dozen pages transcribed so far, I think just moving them manually might be the easiest thing. -Pete (talk) 14:09, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Sounds good, I’ll do that. Thanks for the feedback. χchi (talk) 14:16, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Hmm, the problem is that the OCR is still from the previous scan. How should it be updated? χchi (talk) 14:21, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@Χ: Possibly @Mpaa: can help with this incremental page move? Hrishikes (talk) 14:31, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@Χ: Oh, I understand. That's a tricky one, and I suppose a problem with the underlying file, not with anything on Wikimedia. So I think you'll have to fix the file first, and then upload a new version. (Or else, just use the "OCR" button on each page as you edit, to have Wikisource generate its own OCR...but that will be a hassle.) I don't know a thing about editing DJVU files, unfortunately. There are a number of OCR-related tips at Help:DjVu files, but I can't vouch for any of them. I'd be interested to hear if anybody knows an easy answer to this though, it would be good to know how to deal with issues like this. -Pete (talk) 14:46, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment(ec) Upload a new djvu file via IAupload, to a new file name. When you need pages moved, generate a paired list of before and after (names of files, and whether we are going from /1 to /1, /2 to /2, ..., or an offset, or generate a mapped list and link to it from a request at WS:BR. Numbers of us can do something from there. Just make our job as easily as possible by clarity of task. — billinghurst sDrewth 14:49, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

@Billinghurst:, does this entail first uploading the new/corrected DJVU file to IA? -Pete (talk) 15:01, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Isn't that what I have said? iaupload takes the jp2000 images of the file, and pairs them with the djvu.xml layer for the file (as I understand the process). Then you are wanting an admin to move the proofread pages into place according to the provided mapping. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:49, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
It sounds like the answer is no -- you're saying that ia-upload will generate a DJVU file on the fly from the source files, rather than uploading the existing DJVU file. So, no need to upload a corrected DJVU to IA prior to uploading to Commons. Thanks for clarifying. -Pete (talk) 23:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@Peteforsyth: It is not like that. If a djvu file exists, IAupload will upload that only. If it does not exist, then IAupload will create a new one. Moreover, if a file was previously added to Commons using IAupload from the same IA address, you cannot reupload from the same address using IAupload, even to a new file name; IAupload will refuse it. Hrishikes (talk) 04:42, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the info, Hrishikes (talkcontribs). FWIW I also found this bit of info about the tool, which I had overlooked prior to the present discussion. -Pete (talk) 17:25, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Template / custom toolbar[edit]


I could really do with creating a custom list of templates in one toolbar or markup list for a mathematical document.

I am mainly using centered <math>, and references. There is a user section in the templates lists, but I can't figure out how to edit it.

Any tips? unsigned comment by Natty Stott (talk) 14:08, 7 April 2018 (UTC).

If you mean the CharInsert menu at the bottom of the edit window, it can be modified by adding to your user JS: Special:MyPage/common.js. Full instructions for adding to it are at CharInsert, but essentially, you may want something like this:
// Add custom CharInsert entries
window.charinsertCustom = {
 "User": ' Math: \alpha \beta',
Hope that helps, Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 11:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC). Yes that's it, thanks Natty Stott (talk)

Would it be ok for to scan and publish some historical paper documents in this space?[edit]

Would it be ok for to scan and publish some historical paper documents in this space? We want to digitally flesh out our history and make reference material available to support our WP article. ThanksCgsstl (talk) 14:16, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

@Cgsstl: Yes, if ... They need to be within scope, see WS:WWI. That if there are copyright issues that you are the copyright holder directly or indirectly and able to step through the OTRS| process. If unpublished, and simply historical, then we would usually apply Wikipedia's notability requirement as a rule of thumb. If they are published works and not in copyright, then that is an easy yes. If they are not published, and in copyright and not notable people, then unlikely. We are always happy to explore where they fall on that continuum, and generally would look to see how we can include wherever reasonable. — billinghurst sDrewth 14:35, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

DJVU and index/OCR offset by one page[edit]

I may have done something wrong. At Index:Women of Ohio; a record of their achievements in the history of the state (Vol. I).djvu, the index pages (and OCR scans) do not align. They are off by one page (see for instance page "9"). For reference the commons file is here and the source file is located here. Please advise, thanks! Animalparty (talk) 21:39, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Note: It has occurred to me that the problem might lie with the original DJVU. When I uploaded it to commons, a "page zero" preceding the cover image seems to have been added, displaying the scanning color palette and rulers. This page is not present in (or at least not visible) in the version, nor the PDF version from It’s possible that a re-upload of the DJVU file with the first page omitted might fix the problem. Animalparty (talk) 22:33, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Animalparty: There are times when there is a glitch in a file that has the text layer and the image layer get out of place. Is there another version available to upload (overload). Not certain whether it can be rederived at source, or post source. djvu innards are black magic. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:19, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: I transferred the .djvu directly from Internet Archive using the IA Upload tool. I don’t even see an option to download full djvu files from the source (at least nothing like the ~100 mb file already uploaded). Preliminary evidence suggests the OCR alignment problem also exists in File:Women of Ohio; a record of their achievements in the history of the state (Vol. II).djvu and File:Women of Ohio; a record of their achievements in the history of the state (Vol. II).1.djvu (I made but didn't save drafts of Index pages, and the same issue appears). I suppose I could try the PDF version (circa 41 mb, and text appears OCR compatible), but I'm leery about uploading too many files. Do you know of a way to diagnose OCR in PDFs (or .djvu) prior to uploading or should I just give it a shot? -Animalparty (talk) 23:41, 17 April 2018 (UTC) -Addition: I just noticed the above discussion DjVu from Internet Archive. I’ll try converting a PDF to a DJVU and overwriting existing files first. --Animalparty (talk) 00:15, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
As mentioned, I don't know beyond the basics about DjVu files. In this situation trying alternatives is fine, and if we need to a tidy up here and/or at Commons, then just ping me or one of the other dual admin rightsholders, and we will assist. — billinghurst sDrewth 01:36, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Update: It appears I’ve fixed the OCR alignment by uploading a new DJVU file converted from a PDF file. Thanks @Billinghurst: and @ShakespeareFan00:. --Animalparty (talk) 05:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Frown & Smile Overlay[edit]

Advice requested, thanks! I need to overlay two characters: a FROWN ⁀ and a SMILE ‿

2322 ⌢ FROWN

           →       2040 ⁀ character tie

2323 ⌣ SMILE

           →       203F ‿ undertie

Klarm768 (talk) 11:43, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Why not use U+2050 ⁐ CLOSE UP ? —Beleg Tâl (talk) 11:47, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
Perfect! I thank you! Galileo's Saturn o⁐o thanks you! You astound... and so quickly! Where might a person who's never heard of it have gone to discover CLOSE UP herself? Klarm768 (talk) 12:08, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
I was checking the Wikipedia article on w:Tie (typography)#Encoding to see if there was a combining diacritic that could be used for the purpose, and CLOSE UP was listed under similar characters. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 15:03, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Seeing as the terms FROWN and SMILE were used in the initial query:
works thus: oo. May not be appropriate to the context of Klarm768's intended use? 22:59, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
You are correct. If I had gotten what I asked for, it would not been as good as CLOSE UP. Here's a snapshot 'text' to to be emulated:
illustration of Saturn by Galileo
Klarm768 (talk) 00:03, 19 April 2018 (UTC)