Wikisource:Copyright discussions

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Copyright discussions
This page hosts discussions on works that may violate Wikisource's copyright policy. You may join any current discussion or start a new one.

Note that works which are a clear copyright violation may now be speedy deleted under criteria for speedy deletion G6. To protect the legal interests of the Wikimedia Foundation, these will be deleted unless there are strong reasons to keep them within at least two weeks. If there is reasonable doubt, they will be deleted.

When you add a work to this page, please add {{copyvio}} after the header which blanks the work. If you believe a work should be deleted for any reason except copyright violation, see Proposed deletions.

If you are at least somewhat familiar with U. S. copyright regulations, Stanford Copyright Renewal Database as well as University of Pennsylvania's information about the Catalog of Copyright Entries may be helpful in determining the copyright status of the work. A search through Archive.org or Google Books may also be useful to determine if the complete texts are available due to expired copyright. Help:Public domain can help users determine whether a given work is in the public domain.

Quick reference to copyright term

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Discussions[edit]

Index:To the Victor Belongs the Spoils.djvu[edit]

Raised a concern here https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/User_talk:John_Vandenberg#Index:To_the_Victor_Belongs_the_Spoils.djvu back in 2014. and not much happened since then.

Bringing it here, so that there is at least a disscussion.

The problem is the inclusion of 'third-party' images which are NOT necessarily under the same Creative Commons license as the text. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:37, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Australian photographs taken before 1955 are public domain now. Carl Lindberg (talk) 00:42, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
Wrong country: Wikisource is hosted in the United States, not in Australia. It says that the document was published in 1999, and if this was when the photographs were first published, then they will be unfree for several more decades in the United States. I can also not find any evidence that the Creative Commons licence claim for the text is valid. --Stefan2 (talk) 00:50, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
My recollection is that the uploader of the original PDF, which was then moved to Common and converted to DJVU because the PDF wouldn't display, said his contribution was CC. This probably need someone with admin access at Commons and English Wikisource to do trace back what the originals were linking to. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 01:50, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
Australian photographs created before 1946 were public domain in Australia in 1996 and would not have been restored by the URAA in the U.S. It is unlikely that photographs taken from external sources would have been first published in that paper. If the Creative Commons license is not valid, that is another matter. Carl Lindberg (talk) 01:11, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
Australian photographs were in the public domain 50 years after the making of the negative, nothing to do with publication.section "Provisions as to photographs" Again having and researching an evidence base for any argument would be useful. — billinghurst sDrewth 01:40, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
When you state that something is in the public domain, you must also state in which country it is in the public domain. This is in particular important in countries which do not use the rule of the shorter term, such as the United States. No Australian photographs created before 1955 entered the public domain in the United States 50 years after creation of the negative. That's when the copyright expired in Australia, but USA uses different rules. --Stefan2 (talk) 02:06, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
The vast majority of such works expired in the U.S. when they were published without a copyright notice. Photos created 1946 and later could well have an issue though. Carl Lindberg (talk) 02:57, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
Right. Australian photographs which were published usually entered the public domain either immediately upon publication (no notice) or 28 years after publication (no renewal). There could be some which were published with notice and renewal, but I suppose that's uncommon for non-US works. The main problems are photos not published until after 1963 (no renewal needed) and photos created after 1945 (URAA automatically added any missing notices and submitted any missing renewals). In either case, the copyright didn't expire in the United States 50 years after creation; that was only the case in Australia and in countries which recognise the rule of the shorter term. --Stefan2 (talk) 14:40, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
Unless there is some evidence that a photo was kept unpublished for some time, the usual assumption for foreign photos is publication without notice. That also precludes renewals being an issue, though that is also a fallback sometimes if it turns out there was a notice. But yes, the main problem would be photos created after 1945 -- those would have had their U.S. copyright restored. Carl Lindberg (talk) 11:21, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
Newspaper photographers seem to take lots of photographs of each event but only end up publishing one or two of them. Family photographs are also usually unpublished. Some of these unpublished photographs might later end up somewhere and become published a lot later. Therefore, it seems that most photographs are unpublished and that we can't assume that a photograph is published unless we have some indication that this is the case. Also, it does not seem safe to assume that a photograph was published without a notice, in particular not after many countries started signing the Universal Copyright Convention which mentions copyright notices. Most European publications currently contain a copyright notice, although this was a lot less common in the past. The only thing we can safely assume is that pictures were published without a renewal as there should have been very few people outside the United States who bothered submitting a renewal to the United States authorities. --Stefan2 (talk) 15:11, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Some of the images post-date 1955. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 02:53, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

US-specific notices in non-US copyright tags[edit]

I've brought up a few times some works that are hosted under a non-US copyright tag, like {{PD-INGov}} or {{PD-Israel}}. These tags indicate that a work is PD in the source country, but don't indicate whether a work is PD in the USA.

I would like to add a little notice on the end of all of these tags based on the one used at {{PD-Russia}}, saying something to the effect of:

This work is also in the public domain in the U.S.A. because it was in the public domain in (country) in 1996, and no copyright was registered in the U.S.A. (This is the combined effect of (country)'s joining the Berne Convention in (year), and of 17 USC 104A with its critical date of January 1, 1996.)

Or, in the case of foreign government edicts:

This work is also in the public domain in the U.S.A. because it is an edict of a government, local or foreign. See § 206.01 of the Compendium II: Copyright Office Practices. Such documents include "judicial opinions, administrative rulings, legislative enactments, public ordinances, and similar official legal documents."

That way, the copyright tags can indicate both the information about source country copyright, but also the crucial US copyright status that allows the text to be hosted here. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 16:47, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

The only license that we require is the US license, the additional licenses are niceties, not requirements. If people wish to double license, then they should be wrapped in Template:license container begin and "... end". — billinghurst sDrewth 02:39, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
The problem that I wish to address is that works get uploaded with non-US tags but don't have a US tag added. I think that the non-US tags should either be able to function as US tags also, or have a warning saying that a US tag must also be provided. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 12:03, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
We are not catching their absence during patrolling? — billinghurst sDrewth 12:44, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: I'm finding quite a few that have been here for years by digging through various maintenance categories, which is why I'm bringing it up. Already there are discussions in progress on this page regarding works that have been uploaded under {{Legislation-CAGov}} and {{PD-INGov}} and {{PD-Israel}}, and I expect to find quite a few more. I just want to generalize our approach so that I don't need to make a new discussion every time I find another one.—Beleg Tâl (talk) 12:55, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Symbol support vote.svg Support the thought to retrofit.--Jusjih (talk) 04:10, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

All works under Category:PD-IndonesianGov[edit]

The license {{PD-IndonesianGov}} (not to be confused with {{PD-EdictGovIndonesian}}) is explicitly nonderivative and therefore unacceptable here. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 17:45, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

How many of these works have the correct license? Are there any of the works that ought to have a different license? Otherwise, I agree that we cannot / should not host works under the stated tag. --EncycloPetey (talk) 18:50, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
Some of them are listed with multiple license tags and can be kept. Some of them I'm not sure. Maybe we should discuss each individually. I'd delete the license tag though, or at least make a note on it that works cannot be hosted under the license unless they are PD in the US for some other reason. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 15:37, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

A Tryst With Destiny[edit]

See w:A Tryst With Destiny. This is a 1947 speech by Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India. Current copyright law in India gives it a copyright as a government work of 60 years, so it would be out of copyright in India in 2008. (Or so sayth Wikipedia.) I don't see it as PD in the US, though.--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:39, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Unless it was published in the U.S. within 30 days. Carl Lindberg (talk) 07:07, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
@Koavf: Move to BiblioWiki? I am no longer able to do it.--Jusjih (talk) 22:36, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Nobel speeches/lectures[edit]

According to https://www.nobelprize.org/faq/questions_in_category.php?id=5:

Can I use or translate a Nobel Lecture, speech or a biography?

Nobel Media administrates the publishing rights of the Nobel Lectures, speeches and biographies on Nobelprize.org on behalf of the Nobel Foundation who hold copyright. For information on how to license these, please contact media@nobel.se.

This is further confirmed on https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_organizations/nobelmedia/nobelprize_org/copyright/legal_notice.pdf

Nobel Lectures, Speeches and Biographies

To use or translate a Nobel Lecture, a presentation speech, a banquet speech or a biography, permission has to be granted by the Nobel Foundation.

If granted, "© The Nobel Foundation" and relevant year must be stated, the text correctly quoted and the author identified as the sole author of the text.

All Nobel Lectures, presentation speeches, banquet speeches and biographies are also published in the book series "Les Prix Nobel" and "Nobel Lectures."

This brings into question the following works:

-Einstein95 (talk) 04:11, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Roosevelt's speech is out of copyright because it was published before 1923. I don't see any reason why Al Gore's speech would be out of copyright, given he wasn't in a federal office in 2007. Barack Obama was President at the time of his speech, and we've generally read the copyright law to put pretty much everything the President creates into the public domain. (And it's possible it was written for him by a White House official.) But accepting the Noble Prize is generally not a Presidential duty, so...? I'm leaning towards it being a work of the US government. Faulkner's speech in 1950 may not have been copyrighted and renewed, and the URAA didn't restore copyrights of Americans like Faulkner, so that's probably in the PD.--Prosfilaes (talk) 08:04, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Gore Symbol delete vote.svg Delete contributor is also known to be open-minded with their interpretation of copyright; Obama Symbol keep vote.svg Keep, we have called USGov; Roosevelt Symbol keep vote.svg Keep pre-1923; Faulkner, ??? was it published in the US, and within 30 days?. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:43, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
The URAA doesn't restore works that are solely by Americans. There has to be at least one author who is from an eligible nation, which explicitly excludes the US. I can't find a renewal, but I don't know when it was first published. If it hit the New York Times via telegraph, it could have been published within 30 days in a renewed work.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:00, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
I think the URAA would restore works by Americans if they were actually residing overseas at the time. But Faulkner would not qualify. Carl Lindberg (talk) 05:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, domiciled. Which I supposed mitigates against the undeletion of Three Stories and Ten Poems based on my proposal.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Deleted Gore's speech. @Koavf: move Faulkner's speech to BiblioWiki?--Jusjih (talk) 22:56, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

The Exilarch's Letter[edit]

I can't find any source for the English translation (Sod Ha'ibur by Richard Fiedler (2014) copies Wikisource). The Aramaic text should probably go to the main Wikisource, though it would be nice to have a source for that, too. We could make a local translation, if necessary; it's pretty short, but Aramaic is not a widely-known language.--Prosfilaes (talk) 10:45, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Onceinawhile wrote on my talk page that "The Aramaic comes from Mann in 1922:[1]. Published in the UK, and confirmed as being out of copyright by IA / Cornell. The English translation is from the same time period but I can’t find the source online (I think I took it from a library); this was five years ago." I wasn't truly worried about the Aramaic, but given that one year later is still in copyright, "from the same time period" isn't much help.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:37, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

On Succession to the Crown[edit]

Is there any reason to consider this out of copyright? —Beleg Tâl (talk) 02:41, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

It really depends on Australian law regarding speeches by elected officials in the course of their debate in the national government. I'm not familiar with Australian law, but this is a speech in the Australian lower house (national) by an elected official to that representative body. --EncycloPetey (talk) 16:59, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Typically work of the parliament belongs to the parliament[2], though Jill Hennessy may be able to release a copy of the work to the public domain. I have pinged the contributor to ask them to contact the author whether they are able to release a copy under a suitable creative commons license. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:58, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Selected Essays by Karl Marx translated by Henry James Stenning[edit]

Set of translated works by Marc that have been held by us for a long period. They are noted as the translations being published in 1926, and confirmed as first published, and the author having died 1971 (FreeBMD date). Author is British, and the linked archive.org reprint was during the life of the author, so not a sign that the reprint was able due to no copyright. Archive.org has numbers of Stenning's works[3], though they would all appear to be in copyright.

It would appear that unfortunately that these works are copyright in UK, and US and not out of copyright until at least 95 years after publication (2021). — billinghurst sDrewth 04:28, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

It seems that the 1926 edition was a US publication (New York, International publishers, 1926); was its copyright renewed? Or, maybe, there wa an older British-only publication? Ankry (talk) 19:35, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Nope, I can see a book review in Marxian Essays. — Aberdeen Press and Journal (Aberdeen, Scotland), Thursday, April 01, 1926; pg. 3; Issue 1040.billinghurst sDrewth 01:01, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Index:The maritime provinces of British North America and the American Revolution.djvu[edit]

Querying this as the original is undated, and commentstext would suggest it's post 1923. The author died in 1950, but I've not found any-more details. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:53, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Googling it gives a few results dating the text to 1941. Could be {{PD-US-no-notice}}, unless the scan we have is deficient and missing a copyright notice that was there originally. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 12:01, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Assuming the scan is deficient (I find it odd there is no title page) searching Stanford turns up nothing, so possibly PD due to no renewal? BethNaught (talk) 16:39, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
There's a HathiTrust scan at mdp.39015027930448, which does have a title page. Looks like it was published in Canada, so it was in copyright there in 1996 (life+70), so it's 95 years from publication (i.e. 2036). Unless our version is a US edition, in which case, no renewal should mean PD. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 17:46, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Symbol delete vote.svg Delete Can you see the HathiTrust scan? It just blocks me as copyrighted. [4] offers me "associate professor of history at the University of Buffalo for 25 years", but that doesn't mean she wasn't a Canadian national at the time, and could have even lived in Canada. Even if we have a US version, we have to establish that it was legally published less than 30 days after the first publication; if the Canadian one was first by a couple months, then the URAA would have restored it. I think we have to delete. But Canada is life+50, not +70, so it is fair game for Canadian text publishers.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:52, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Here's a review of the book, it's definitely a Canadian publication, and the contents are "reprinted from a series of articles in the Maritime Advocate" (also a Canadian publication). This looks like a candidate to be moved to Bibliowiki. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 23:59, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
But for Canada, won't it remain under copyright until 2021 (copyright for 70 years after the death of the author?) --EncycloPetey (talk) 00:53, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Canada is life + 50 so it's been PD up here since 2001 (assuming the year of death is correct). —Beleg Tâl (talk) 01:51, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Symbol delete vote.svg Delete and I would call it 2036 resurrection as whichever way it is 95 years post publication, not pma related. Not worth us worrying about bibliowiki, there is nothing for us to move. Inform uploader of the situation. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:30, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Question on upload policy[edit]

Is it permissible to upload a djvu source file to Wikisource if it contains material which is in the public domain in the US, but not in the country of its original publication? I'm asking because such files cannot be uploaded to Commons, and I have one which I would like to upload here if it's permissible to do so.
David Wilson (talk) 01:51, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, as long as all the content is PD in the US. We allow local uploads to English Wikisource for such works if they are not PD in their country of origin, but are PD in the US. Commons requires PD for both, but en-WS makes the allowance for PD-US works. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:57, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Works translated by Robert Elsie[edit]

Albanian poems translated by Robert Elsie (1950–2017). Based on the source information provided, the first and last listed could be speedied. The others could hypothetically be PD based on the information available to me, but I think it's unlikely and I have no evidence for that. BethNaught (talk) 18:33, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Poems by Andreas Gryphius[edit]

These are translations of two 17th-century poems. The translations are attributed to "Scott Horton", and match this 2007 Harpers' post by w:Scott Horton (attorney) (possibly born 1955, alive as of August 2016). I think this is reasonably clear, but I'm wary of unilaterally speedying copyvios in case there's something I've missed. Thanks, BethNaught (talk) 19:28, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

  • Symbol delete vote.svg Delete seems evident, and without source material pointing elsewhere. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:50, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

The Plays of Roswitha[edit]

Could people assist to determine whether (External scan) is out of copyright in the United States? The translator died in 1960, so it's still protected in the UK, but I'm unsure whether the book was registered for copyright in the US, and whether or not there was a renewal. It seems to have been published only from London, and anything post 1922 is confusing for me. --EncycloPetey (talk) 03:02, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Addendum: The translator is Christabel Marshall, who published under the pen names of Christopher St John and Christopher Marie St John. I do not know which of these names the copyright might (or might not) have been registered under. --EncycloPetey (talk) 03:04, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

I can't see why it would be PD in the US. (It is PD in Canada, which is why the University of Toronto may have felt fine about uploading it.) There's basically just two rules for restoration; it had not to be PD in its source nation in 1996 (or later if the nation joined WTO or Berne later, or is Vietnam, but 1996 for most of Europe) and "has at least one author or rightholder who was, at the time the work was created, a national or domiciliary of an eligible country, and if published, was first published in an eligible country and not published in the United States during the 30-day period following publication in such eligible country." So it wasn't PD in the UK in 1996, the translator lived in the UK and it was published in UK with no following publication in the US.
Short of finding it was printed in the US at the same time, we'll have to wait until next year.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:50, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
If you think it's useful, I would like to kickstart 2019 with a collection of books that are newly freed into the public domain in the US (i.e. works from 1923), and this would certainly be an option.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:36, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
@Prosfilaes: I would think that this would be best considered as a subpage to WS:RT or a rejig of those pages. And to that we should also consider how we would list works that we have deleted that could be undeleted as coming out of copyright. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:48, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
@Prosfilaes: This would definitely be useful. We have no medieval plays at all, or any works by Hrosvitha (except for the one I found that was in PD). Hrosvitha is the earliest post-Roman playwright whose works survive, and the first female playwright (we know of) from anywhere in the world. --EncycloPetey (talk) 00:56, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: To some extent, WS:RT could work, but I also want a big bang on 2019-01-01, and that's going to take more off-wiki work and more preparation than WS:RT is usually associated with. I've been working on transcription projects for close to 20 years, starting not too long after the US PD was basically frozen. This is a huge deal to me.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:23, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Karl Marx: A Brief Biographical Sketch With an Exposition of Marxism[edit]

I took this here, but there's also some serious WS:PD issues here. This has no source, and only the preface. The table of contents includes articles that according to the lengthy header description weren't published until 1925, and then in Russian. There's absolutely no source information for the translation. I can see cases where this is PD in the US, but then WS:PD comes in; there's only a paragraph long Preface here (Karl Marx: A Brief Biographical Sketch With an Exposition of Marxism/Preface).--Prosfilaes (talk) 20:26, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Symbol delete vote.svg Delete no source, no evidence of copyright, abandoned with no ready ability to be continued. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:45, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

DNC Lawsuit against Russia, Wikileaks et al..?[edit]

Firstly is this in scope: ? http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/politics/the-dncs-lawsuit-against-the-russian-government-trump-campaign-and-wikileaks/2914/

Secondly who is this copyright to? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Why would you think that it is not under copyright? — billinghurst sDrewth 23:13, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
It's a formal submission to a US court. I wanted a second view on whether these are copyright (assumed) or not as public record. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:20, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
Copyrighted documents can be submitted to court and added to public record; they do not lose their copyright status when this happens. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 15:26, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
One of the more famous examples of a copyrighted work being included in a court decision (not just public record, the court decision itself) is a court decision about Superman that includes the entirety of Action Comics #1. That's generally been argued as not being repostable except in rare cases preserving maximum fair use aspect.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:53, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm assuming, that in the absence of anything saying otherwise that it is copyright, and thus can't be on Wikisource. Thanks ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:21, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
This is correct. All works created in the USA since 1978 are automatically copyrighted (with exceptions such as government works) and need to be explicitly released in order for us to host them. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 15:26, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

1934 Interview with Joseph Stalin[edit]

Pulled from the web, but I cannot access the source location. Is this in PD, or still under copyright? --EncycloPetey (talk) 20:47, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Here's a scan of an early publication (for reference) —Beleg Tâl (talk) 21:40, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
That's a British work from 1934, so it will be PD-US in 2030. Wells died in 1946, and Stalin in 1953, so it's okay for Bibliowiki.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:08, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

The Devil with the Three Golden Hairs[edit]

This is an unsourced translation of one of the Grimm's Household Tales that is available various places on the internet. It is based on the public domain Margaret Hunt translation, but there are many changes, such as "luck-child" is changed to "child of good fortune", and "laid his head in his grandmother's lap, and before long he was fast asleep" gets translated more completely as "laid his head in his grandmother's lap, and told her she should louse him a little. It was not long before he was fast asleep". The earliest publication I can find of this version is a 1997 Wordsworth edition, which gives no translator. The transcription here is a bit odd, as all the quotation marks are removed, the semicolons removed, King/Queen decapitalized, etc. Should I replace the contents of this page with a versions/translations page linking to the verifiably public domain translations that we have? Mudbringer (talk) 03:53, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

HathiTrust won't show me the scans, but it claims that text can be found in several editions, with the first in 1944, which it lists as "Revised, corrected and completed by James Stern" (w:James Stern?). A search of Gutenberg's copy of the renewals (11800) says that this was renewed, R529103. I can't speak with certainty, but the preponderance of evidence leads me to say that this is still under copyright in the US and will be until 2040. So yes, deletion seems called for.--Prosfilaes (talk) 05:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Thank you very much, it's good to know who made the revisions. Didn't realize how useful HathiTrust is for this kind of investigation. Mudbringer (talk) 05:11, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
I changed the contents of the page, but should the page actually be deleted first? Mudbringer (talk) 05:27, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
I've deleted the older revisions. Normally it's better to leave it as until there's a little more time for discussion, but it's easy enough to undo if anyone objects.--Prosfilaes (talk) 08:20, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Symbol delete vote.svg Delete per the info provided by Prosfilaes. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 10:34, 14 May 2018 (UTC)