Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2023-09

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This is a discussion archive first created in , although the comments contained were likely posted before and after this date.
See current discussion or the archives index.

FYI: Hot Off the Press on Copyright Renewals

https://blog.pgdp.net/2023/09/01/copyright-renewals/ —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:12, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Riegle Report

There is an interesting offer at Talk:Riegle Report, but I am not sure whether such an unpublished document containing published text is in our scope. It would be good if anybody who understands it better could answer there. -- Jan Kameníček (talk) 17:39, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Depends on what it is, and that isn't noted. WS:WWI is the guidance here. With an unpublished records (note not documents), is it covered by copyright or available, does its subject matter have notability to impart onto notability? There has to be something about the record to make it worthy of publishing. — billinghurst sDrewth 21:32, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Problem with 'Previous page {{nop}}' tool

I make reasonably frequent use of this tool and generally have no problem with it. However, it occasionally seems not to work correctly. As an example:-

Page:The life and opinions of Tristram Shandy (Volume 4).pdf/127 ends at the end of a paragraph, hence I inserted {{nop}} (for which I use the 'wiki markup' toolbar).

Page:The life and opinions of Tristram Shandy (Volume 4).pdf/128 starts with a new paragraph. When checking this page I happened to run the 'Previous page' tool and it said there was no {{nop}}, although there definitely is.

I've tried a number of things with page 127, such as varying the spacing between the text and the {{nop}}, removing the terminal em-dash, removing the footer text, but nothing I've tried changes the output from the tool. Chrisguise (talk) 06:28, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

This is a bug in the NopInserter Gadget that is getting confused by the section label markup on /127. I'm looking into a fix, but not sure how quickly I'll get to it. Xover (talk) 07:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know. Chrisguise (talk) 10:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Tech News: 2023-36

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

Problems

  • The LoginNotify extension was not sending notifications since January. It has now been fixed, so going forward, you may see notifications for failed login attempts, and successful login attempts from a new device. [5]

Changes later this week

  • The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 5 September. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 6 September. It will be on all wikis from 7 September (calendar).
  • Starting on Wednesday, a new set of Wikipedias will get "Add a link" (Eastern Mari Wikipedia, Maori Wikipedia, Minangkabau Wikipedia, Macedonian Wikipedia, Malayalam Wikipedia, Mongolian Wikipedia, Marathi Wikipedia, Western Mari Wikipedia, Malay Wikipedia, Maltese Wikipedia, Mirandese Wikipedia, Erzya Wikipedia, Mazanderani Wikipedia, Nāhuatl Wikipedia, Neapolitan Wikipedia, Low German Wikipedia, Low Saxon Wikipedia, Nepali Wikipedia, Newari Wikipedia, Norwegian Nynorsk Wikipedia, Novial Wikipedia, N'Ko Wikipedia, Nouormand Wikipedia, Northern Sotho Wikipedia, Navajo Wikipedia, Nyanja Wikipedia, Occitan Wikipedia, Livvi-Karelian Wikipedia, Oromo Wikipedia, Oriya Wikipedia, Ossetic Wikipedia, Punjabi Wikipedia, Pangasinan Wikipedia, Pampanga Wikipedia, Papiamento Wikipedia, Picard Wikipedia, Pennsylvania German Wikipedia, Palatine German Wikipedia, Norfuk / Pitkern Wikipedia, Piedmontese Wikipedia, Western Punjabi Wikipedia, Pontic Wikipedia, Pashto Wikipedia). This is part of the progressive deployment of this tool to more Wikipedias. The communities can configure how this feature works locally. [6][7]

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

MediaWiki message delivery 23:33, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Everyone may want to particularly notice that the new "Edit in Sequence" feature that was briefly enabled by default has now moved behind a feature flag as a Beta Feature in your preferences. I encourage everyone to try it out, but be aware that it currently has some limitations (notably, not preloading the text layer) that may make it less useful for power users (who are the main target audience of the feature). Our local Gadgets have also not yet been adapted to work with it. It is being actively worked on so these issues will get addressed, but if you can only spare the time to look at it in depth once you may want to wait. If you can do some testing though, getting feedback while the feature is still in main development would be very useful.
If you're not a particularly technical user feel free to leave feedback in a new thread here on the Scriptorium. I'll try to facilitate as I'm able, and I know the developer does try to watch for relevant threads here on enWS. Xover (talk) 07:15, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
Please take a note of m:Talk:Wikisource EditInSequence#Issues with status change and OCR Ciridae (talk) 10:52, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Works by year listings

For years up to Wikisource:Works/2021, the numbering is cumulative month by month over the whole year. However, for Wikisource:Works/2022 and 2023 it restarts each month. Anyone understand why ? Beardo (talk) 10:06, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@Beardo: It looks like most years were manually setting the item counts so they wouldn't reset across sections, e.g. {{New texts/2021/02}} starts out with #<includeonly><li value=65></includeonly>. —CalendulaAsteraceae (talk • contribs) 10:25, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
@CalendulaAsteraceae - oh, I see. Should we extend that so the last couple of years are like that too ? Or are we happy to leave it as inconsistent ? -- Beardo (talk) 10:37, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
@Beardo: I don't really interact with these listings, so I'll leave it up to the people who do to weigh in. —CalendulaAsteraceae (talk • contribs) 02:05, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Done — billinghurst sDrewth 11:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

This section was archived on a request by: — billinghurst sDrewth 11:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Index page spelling

Index:United States Constitution Broadsid Printed by John Carter Rhode Island Providence seems to have spelled "Broadsid" incorrectly. I now understand that renaming or moving Index pages is rather involved, but should something be done here? Daniel Quinlan (talk) 22:58, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

@Daniel Quinlan: Usually we do not bother; the important part is the user-facing page in mainspace, so for the hassle of moving we can live with typos and such in the project-internal namespaces (Index:, Page:, File:). However, as it was only two pages and you brought it up I have moved them to a new page name. There were link to the old page name for the index so I've left a redirect behind there. Xover (talk) 10:50, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
Thanks. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 14:20, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Two questions about bots

I have read w:en:Wikipedia:Bots. I have two questions:

  1. I am adding the text of Stephen Batman's translation of De proprietatibus rerum by Bartolomeus Anglicus. But I already have a transcription, because the University of Michigan has the whole text on their Early English site. The transcription is mostly correct, but I've found errors, so of course I'm checking everything. It is far far easier for me to split UMich's transcription into pages, then check them visually on my laptop, than to use Wikisource's UI. I would like to set up a pywikpedia bot to upload them as I finish them. I can't tell from the bots policy page whether this is an acceptable use.
  2. The page says that people should ask for bot permission here on the Scriptorium. But it's not clear whether Scriptorium#Bot approval requests is the place to add a subheading, or whether it's just a restatement of the policy and you're expected to ask below like any other question.

Thank you! Marnanel (talk) 02:23, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Just to be clear, you've linked to a Wikipedia policy (and I revised that link). Did you mean Wikisource:Bots? Have you read our local policy? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:06, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
@Marnanel: The bot policy primarily covers unattended tasks and other such cases where the difference between a human and a bot matters. If you plan to actually watch the page changes as your bot edits, it doesn't really matter very much whether your editing using the web interface and Chrome or from the command line using Pywikibot. Keep the rate and volume of edits low enough that you do not flood recent changes, and make sure you check the quality of your edits, and you should be fine.
However, I'll caution you that the reason for the Proofread Page system of proofreading is that other approaches have been shown to lead to quite a lot of transcription errors (some subtle, som less so). We strongly recommend interactively using the side-by-side proofreading interface for this reason. Xover (talk) 11:54, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
@Marnanel: Please ensure that any work where you would be looking to inject text is the same edition as the scan, we have had situations where people have put a scan of a different edition against an existing text.

Putting in the text layers with a bot is not particularly an issue, though some additional things to note above what Xover mentioned. 1) It is not a normal wikipage, different content-type, so are you creating pages or using existing pages? 2) there are header and footer components to navigate, so you are essentially inserting text between a couple of set of tags; 3) proofreading status: poking in the text with the bot in a reproducible means is fine, especially if you are leaving a page status unchanged; if you are looking to change the status then that is a different call, and should have a conversation. If you are not changing the status then are you then manually opening and editing the pages and changing the status? — billinghurst sDrewth 01:58, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Tech News: 2023-37

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

  • ORES, the revision evaluation service, is now using a new open-source infrastructure on all wikis except for English Wikipedia and Wikidata. These two will follow this week. If you notice any unusual results from the Recent Changes filters that are related to ORES (for example, "Contribution quality predictions" and "User intent predictions"), please report them. [8]
  • When you are logged in on one Wikimedia wiki and visit a different Wikimedia wiki, the system tries to log you in there automatically. This has been unreliable for a long time. You can now visit the login page to make the system try extra hard. If you feel that made logging in better or worse than it used to be, your feedback is appreciated. [9]

Changes later this week

  • The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 12 September. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 13 September. It will be on all wikis from 14 September (calendar).
  • The Technical Decision-Making Forum Retrospective team invites anyone involved in the technical field of Wikimedia projects to signup to and join one of their listening sessions on 13 September. Another date will be scheduled later. The goal is to improve the technical decision-making processes.
  • As part of the changes for the Better diff handling of paragraph splits wishlist proposal, the inline switch widget in diff pages is being rolled out this week to all wikis. The inline switch will allow viewers to toggle between a unified inline or two-column diff wikitext format. [10]

Future changes

  • All wikis will be read-only for a few minutes on 20 September. This is planned at 14:00 UTC. More information will be published in Tech News and will also be posted on individual wikis in the coming weeks. [11]
  • The Enterprise API is launching a new feature called "breaking news". Currently in BETA, this attempts to identify likely "newsworthy" topics as they are currently being written about in any Wikipedia. Your help is requested to improve the accuracy of its detection model, especially on smaller language editions, by recommending templates or identifiable editing patterns. See more information at the documentation page on MediaWiki or the FAQ on Meta.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

MediaWiki message delivery 21:07, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Problem with Template:Bar

On Cheery and the Chum/Chapter 3#25 — "because I said, 'I'm cheery,' they got to calling me that, and——"", uses {{bar|2}}, and it displays properly in the Page namespace (see Page:Cheery and the chum (IA cheerychum00yate).pdf/31), but it doesn't appear correctly in the mainspace. Anyone know why? In this particular instance, because there are quite a few on the previous chapter that show up right. PseudoSkull (talk) 02:02, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: This is a fun one! The problem resolved when I changed the "previous" link from [[../Chapter 2|Mr. M{{bar|2}} and Brother]] to [[../Chapter 2|Mr. M— and Brother]]. The problem is caused by the {{bar}} stylesheet not getting transcluded properly if it's first used inside a link, and subsequent instances still being deduplicated and not used. In the sandbox, this displays correctly:
{{bar|2}}[[Cheery and the Chum/Chapter 2|test{{bar|2}}test]]{{bar|2}}
with the stylesheet as
<style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r11476552">.mw-parser-output .wst-bar{text-decoration:line-through}.mw-parser-output .wst-bar-inner{color:transparent}</style>
and this doesn't:
[[Cheery and the Chum/Chapter 2|test{{bar|2}}test]]{{bar|2}}
with the stylesheet as
<style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r11476552">?'"`UNIQ--templatestyles-00000005-QINU`"'?</style>
—CalendulaAsteraceae (talk • contribs) 05:01, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, TemplateStyles inside wikilink markup is a known issue, and ultimately caused by the bone-stupid decision to have TemplateStyles get transcluded willy-nilly at the point of template use, making the giant assumption that the style element will be valid there, instead of extracting them and serving them in the HTML head. Unfortunately for us, Wikipedia almost never has uses for templates inside links, and has easy workarounds for most of the remaining cases, so we're likely to be stuck with this problem indefinitely. The simple workaround is to move the template outside the link. When that's not possible all the alternatives get… inelegant.
In the case of {{bar}} the only thing I can think of ottomh is to essentially subst: it and put the styles on the two spans' style attribute, or make do with just an em-dash as you've done here. Xover (talk) 05:31, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
FTR I stuck a <templatestyles src="Bar/styles.css" /> at the top of the page and that fixed things. —CalendulaAsteraceae (talk • contribs) 03:26, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Reference button, again

Dear Friends, again I want to ask about the reference button that has disappeared some time ago (on the English Wikisource, but also on the Dutch). Where has it gone? Can I get it back? Is there an easy alternative? Thanks for helping me. --Dick Bos (talk) 06:56, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Your wiki will be in read-only soon

Read this message in another language • Please help translate to your language

The Wikimedia Foundation will switch the traffic between its data centers. This will make sure that Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia wikis can stay online even after a disaster. To make sure everything is working, the Wikimedia Technology department needs to do a planned test. This test will show if they can reliably switch from one data centre to the other. It requires many teams to prepare for the test and to be available to fix any unexpected problems.

All traffic will switch on 20 September. The test will start at 14:00 UTC.

Unfortunately, because of some limitations in MediaWiki, all editing must stop while the switch is made. We apologize for this disruption, and we are working to minimize it in the future.

You will be able to read, but not edit, all wikis for a short period of time.

  • You will not be able to edit for up to an hour on Wednesday 20 September 2023.
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This project may be postponed if necessary. You can read the schedule at wikitech.wikimedia.org. Any changes will be announced in the schedule. There will be more notifications about this. A banner will be displayed on all wikis 30 minutes before this operation happens. Please share this information with your community.

Trizek_(WMF) (talk) 09:23, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Block right

The {{block right}} template creates an empty line behind it, see here. Could it be removed, please? -- Jan Kameníček (talk) 18:47, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: Done Xover (talk) 19:35, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Tech News: 2023-38

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

  • MediaWiki now has a stable interface policy for frontend code that more clearly defines how we deprecate MediaWiki code and wiki-based code (e.g. gadgets and user scripts). Thank you to everyone who contributed to the content and discussions. [12][13]

Changes later this week

  • The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 19 September. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 20 September. It will be on all wikis from 21 September (calendar).
  • All wikis will be read-only for a few minutes on September 20. This is planned at 14:00 UTC. [14]
  • All wikis will have a link in the sidebar that provides a short URL of that page, using the Wikimedia URL Shortener. [15]

Future changes

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MediaWiki message delivery 19:19, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Ocellus Lucanus

We have Author:Ocellus Lucanus where the author seems to have no surviving works (see w:Ocellus Lucanus). There is a work which was "was attributed to him, and the citation of its author nowadays appears as Pseudo-Ocellus Lucanus". Should we include that work on the Ocellus Lucanus page ? Should we have a page for "Pseudo-Ocellus Lucanus" ? -- Beardo (talk) 07:43, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

The Mythology of All Races - Volume 4?

This is noted as a 1927 publication, Would that have now expired? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:44, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: Yes. Except for sound recordings, all works published before 1928 are in the public domain in the US. —CalendulaAsteraceae (talk • contribs) 10:29, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
The next question : Is there a scan of this consistent with the other volumes we have? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 07:25, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
@ShakespeareFan00: See IA Ciridae (talk) 11:06, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
Thanks - I tried to upload that file , and found after having made the index Index:The_Mythology_of_All_Races_Vol_4_(Finno-Ugric_and_Siberian).djvu that the text-layer had become misaligned. Perhaps someone here with the appropriate skills is able to make a hi-quality scanset for this? ( I get the impression here that PDF is problematic for Wikisource purposes.) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:50, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
You should ask on WS:Scan Lab. Ciridae (talk) 11:16, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Ocellus Lucanus

We have Author:Ocellus Lucanus where the author seems to have no surviving works (see w:Ocellus Lucanus). There is a work which was "was attributed to him, and the citation of its author nowadays appears as Pseudo-Ocellus Lucanus". Should we include that work on the Ocellus Lucanus page ? Should we have a page for "Pseudo-Ocellus Lucanus" ? -- Beardo (talk) 07:43, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Ger:Index:Die Gola-Sprache in Liberia&

Is the format of this page name correct ? I haven't seen anything like that before. Neither the Ger: at the start nor the & at the end. -- Beardo (talk) 12:36, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I've deleted it; it was clearly intended for a German work that is out of scope here.--Prosfilaes (talk) 19:37, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Cheers -- Beardo (talk) 22:15, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Nougat: open-source OCR for mathematic/scientific notations

This Twitter thread describes:

Nougat: an open-source OCR model that accurately scans books with heavy math/scientific notations. It's ages ahead of other open OCR options.

It looks promising. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:45, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing: interresting, do we have a lot of book with math/scientific notations? (obviously I'm thinking about Russell & Whitehead's Principia Mathematica, but due to the 70/95 years delay ofr entering public domain, I don't know how much there actually is).
@SWilson (WMF): you may be interrested in that.
Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 13:52, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Yes. Not every book with math/scientific notations is a book about mathematics. Example: [16]. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:29, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

how did english wikisource get there search result links to correctly display the website?

Hi. I'm coming as an active user on the Hebrew Wikisource website. I've noticed a curiuos thing. Google search results for pages on Hebrew Wikource (he.wikisource.org) appear in google search results as being pages on WIKIPEDIA (see sample screnn shot here). Yet for the English Wikisource - i don't see this problem. Rather the source shows correctly WIKISOURCE.

Can somone point me in the right direction how i can remedy this problem on the hebrew wikisource site? many thanks in advance. Roxette5 (talk) 18:57, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

@Roxette5: The page title is set using MediaWiki:Pagetitle (he). If that system message does not exist a default is used, which is currently $1 - {{SITENAME}}, where $1 is the wikipage title (i.e. the "article name" in Wikipedia terms) and {{SITENAME}} is the value of that configuration variable in MediaWiki's LocalConfig.php. For heWS that variable is currently "ויקיטקסט" (on heWP it is "ויקיפדיה").
Since I do not read Hebrew I can't really tell whether this looks correct. If it is not correct you need to file a request to have it fixed (only WMF can change LocalSettings.php). If these values do look correct you'll probably have to request assistance figuring out what's wrong. Either way it'll be on Pabricator (which is a tool primarily intended for developers, so if you are not a technical person you may want to find one on heWS or heWP to assist). Xover (talk) 21:01, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
Many many thanks!--Roxette5 (talk) 06:43, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Tech News: 2023-39

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

  • The Vector 2022 skin will now remember the pinned/unpinned status for the Table of Contents for all logged-out users. [17]

Changes later this week

  • The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 26 September. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 27 September. It will be on all wikis from 28 September (calendar).
  • The ResourceLoader mediawiki.ui modules are now deprecated as part of the move to Vue.js and Codex. There is a guide for migrating from MediaWiki UI to Codex for any tools that use it. More details are available in the task and your questions are welcome there.
  • Gadget definitions will have a new "namespaces" option. The option takes a list of namespace IDs. Gadgets that use this option will only load on pages in the given namespaces.

Future changes

  • New variables will be added to AbuseFilter: global_account_groups and global_account_editcount. They are available only when an account is being created. You can use them to prevent blocking automatic creation of accounts when users with many edits elsewhere visit your wiki for the first time. [18][19]

Meetings

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MediaWiki message delivery 16:51, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Index:Inscriptions de l'Orkhon déchiffrées.djvu

The previous comment Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2022-11#Index:Inscriptions_de_l'Orkhon_déchiffrées.djvu_to_French_Wikisource has been archived without comment.

The French text is still being worked upon here. -- Beardo (talk) 16:05, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek - you raised this issue previously. What do you think should be done if nobody can assist ? -- Beardo (talk) 07:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
@VIGNERON: Perhaps you can assist here? cf. the archived thread this appears to be a French-language text that is currently being worked on at enWS, and it needs to be imported at frWS and the contributor guided to continue work there. Xover (talk) 09:42, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Thanks @Xover: for the ping. If I understand it right: we need to import from en.ws to fr.ws (and then delete on en.ws), is it correct? If so, I can do it with Special:Import (it may take a little while). Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 13:06, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
@VIGNERON: That's it, yes. If you let us know when the text has been migrated to frWS we'll take care of deleting the stuff here on enWS. Xover (talk) 14:50, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
@Xover: done for the import to fr.ws (it's all here now fr:Index:Inscriptions_de_l'Orkhon_déchiffrées.djvu). Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 16:38, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
@VIGNERON: Thanks. I've now deleted the pages here, and pointed the contributor at the new location.
@Beardo: Thanks for following up on this. In future, please don't hesitate to bug the admins about such issues at WS:AN; or grab any individual active admin to ask for assistance (they may not be able to help directly for any number of reasons, but should usually be able to point you in the right direction). Xover (talk) 06:55, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
@Xover - thanks. -- Beardo (talk) 13:36, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

The New Monthly Magazine series

Hi! Currently, The New Monthly Magazine lists volumes 1 to 105, with filenames such as Index:The New Monthly Magazine - Volume 007.djvu. These are the volumes of the second series (1821–1884), with one exception: volume 11 (Index:The New Monthly Magazine - Volume 011.djvu) is from the first series (1814–1820). This was my mistake when I uploaded that scan back in 2013.

I'm planning to upload volume 11 of the second series (1824), but as the filename Index:The New Monthly Magazine - Volume 011.djvu is already taken, I think there are a few options:

I can't do any moves without leaving redirects behind, but also don't want to go ahead and upload with a new name, and start proofreading series 2 volume 11 if it would end up causing more of a headache later on, without checking what everyone else thinks is the best way to resolve this first. Either way, once the decision is made, I'll add series 1 to The New Monthly Magazine and {{NMM volumes}}! Apologies for the hassle; any advice on the best way to resolve this would be appreciated! --YodinT 13:33, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

You might consider using The New Monthly Magazine and Universal Register for the first series and the transclusion., while keeping The New Monthly Magazine for the second, with redirects from the various namings (e.g. The New Monthly Magazine and Humorist). That would avoid having to do renaming on the transclusion side as well (e.g. The New Monthly Magazine/Volume 7). MarkLSteadman (talk) 13:58, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Hadn't thought of that! 👍 --YodinT 14:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Following MarkLSteadman's suggestion, I've made a bot request to move the existing file, index, and all pages, to make way for the volume 11 of the second series to be uploaded. --YodinT 11:05, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

header ; footer field not editable

the header and footer field are not open to edit, when i hit the edit button. this will stop proofreading for pages for fields that are not automatically generated.

apparently it is a setting, since the problem does to show while logged out.
it happens in vector 2022, vector and timeless skin.
apparently, in order to check the "Preferences > Editing > Proofreading interface options > Show header and footer fields toggle the visibility of the noinclude header and footer sections when editing in the Page namespace" the editor must first uncheck the "2010 wikitext editor", or it is invisible. - that is bad UX design. Slowking4 ‽ digitaleffie's ghost 14:01, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
@Slowking4: The way it should be working is that if you have the toolbar turned on then you can toggle the header and footer via the button there, and if you have the toolbar turned off then you have to go to preferences to toggle it (the preference label is "Show header and footer fields toggle the visibility of the noinclude header and footer sections when editing in the Page namespace"). Is that not what you're seeing? Sam Wilson 09:55, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
IMHO, it's best for a user to set first the universally relevant preferences, and then set the site exceptions, par site. — ineuw (talk) 03:11, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposal that all works have dates

I propose that: Every edition of a work should have its publication date in the header.

This is a straightforward and simple proposal in response to the removal of dates from headers, which is a practice I strongly disagree with. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:11, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

  • EncycloPetey: What do you mean by “edition of a work”? Is it just like when you use versions, you want the date to be on each item, as opposed to on the versions page? TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 01:17, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
    I guess the biggest issue is that dates are being removed from editions that are published as part of a collection. The date of publication is important, and readers should be able to find full basic citation infomation without having to go hunting. For example, use of the <header> tag will pull in the title, authors, editors, place of publication, publisher, and pages. But it won't pull in the date. And the immediate impetus is the continued stripping of dates from things like the English translations of Seneca's plays. For translations, and for any works with multiple differing editions, the date of publication is essential information for distinguishing one from another. Right now, collections of works will likely have a date only on the primary page, but perhaps not on the works themselves. And in some cases, where I have put in the dates, others are going in and removing them. I disagree with stripping that kind of core information from editions of works. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:35, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
    Concrete examples of why this is relevant:
    • Alfred Tennyson had two separate collecions of poetry published under the title Poems. A person arriving at a poem in one of those collections will not know which collection it's in without them having to navigate to the primary page to find a date. Right now, the issue is kludgingly solved by having the date as part of the base page title and displaying the page name in the title field as on Poems (Tennyson, 1843)/Volume 1/Song—The Owl. I would rather the date field be populated with 1843.
    • Thyestes (1907 translation) versus Thyestes (1902 translation). Or Prometheus Bound and Prometheus Bound, both translations by Elizabeth Barrett Browning that differ from each other. Knowing the date of the translation is often critically useful to persons comparing, or even making use of, multiple translations. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:51, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
    • EncycloPetey: I tend to remove dates from versions pages, because that’s a bad place for them; but I do think that they should be on the individual pages. (By the way, I picked up his Poems, chiefly lyrical, and should be able to scan it in the next week or so.) TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 02:50, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
      This proposal does not cover versions pages, since versions pages are not themselves editions. That is a separate discussion. --EncycloPetey (talk) 17:13, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Is there a standard way of indicating dates in the headers when the dates are uncertain or unknown? E.g. I know we had a major effort around digitization of chapbooks which are 18th / 19th century-ish? Similarly, if it is something like 1923/1924? I know for authors we pull the dates from wikidata which has logic around such cases but if we plan to explicitly not pull the data from wikidata but copy it into the headers what is the expectation here? In general, I would prefer having the data in wikidata rather than forcing copying over the data. MarkLSteadman (talk) 21:45, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
  • I do not know whether we have a standard for that, or have the mechanism yet for pulling dates from Wikidata. An alarming number of our contributions here do not have their own Wikidata items, but are housed on the principal page for the "work" rather than for the specific "edition". So, I suspect we're not ready to implement Wikidata-pulled dates. We might want to have that discussion, and determine what it would take to implement that, and how feasible it would be to accomplish in a reasonable span of time. --EncycloPetey (talk) 03:35, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
    Wikidata would love to have more input from client projects about which pages should have their own Wikidata items and which should not. Our current notability criteria say (in relevant part): "On Wikisource, items for mainspace pages, Author pages, Translation pages, and Portal pages are valid, along with items for namespaces that exist on other Wikimedia sites (Category, Project...). Pages in the Index and Page namespaces are not considered valid. The status of subpages of mainspace pages (for example, individual chapters) is undetermined." If I understand correctly, these editions typically appear as subpages of mainspace pages (like chapters) and so fall into the unfortunate "undetermined" bucket. Bovlb (talk) 18:41, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
    I suspect that is in reference to having, say, a 1920 edition of a play by Shakespeare linked to the main play page in WD such that when pulling the date we would pull the 17th century date instead of 1920. This can be cases for subpages being a problem: works such as poems / stories that are then published in a book collection several years later after being published in a periodical or especially works published in multiple volumes where sometimes they mix between editions or dates, but it is not exclusively issues around subpages. MarkLSteadman (talk) 05:27, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
@Bovlb: As for the status of Wikidata items on Wikisource, subpages are allowed and regularly used if those subpages represent works in their own right. For example, if you have a poetry collection, the poetry collection is a work, as well as every single poem contained within. On Wikidata, each subpage of that collection would be linked to a "version, edition, or translation", which would itself be attached to "work" items for the individual poems. The work items for these poems are important since they represent the concept of the poem, as the poem might appear in other collections or periodicals, and our poetry collection only represents one version of that poem. Sequential chapter subpages ("Chapter 1", "Chapter 2", etc.) are a little more of iffy territory though IMO, and I haven't created Wikidata items for sequential chapters of novels or similar types of books. It has been done before, albeit rarely, but it might be going a little too far, since sequential chapters aren't really works in their own right. PseudoSkull (talk) 04:33, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Module:License Wikidata and Module:Author have code relevant to getting a work's publication year from its Wikidata item, and we could check whether the Wikidata item is an instance of a "version, edition, or translation" before pulling dates. I also expect it would be possible to get the Wikidata ID of the main page even if a subpage doesn't have its own item. (Now, have I tried this? No, I have not. But it really does seem like it should be possible.) —CalendulaAsteraceae (talk • contribs) 05:16, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
I don't know about making this an official policy ... but I will add that I personally always add the date to subpages if it is missing -- Beleg Âlt (talk) 13:41, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
  •  Support. Yet per Beleg Âlt I see no need to make it a hard policy.--Jusjih (talk) 03:23, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
  •  Comment When we know the year of publication of a work then it should be added to the top level of a work by use of the "year" field. There is zero need for subpages to have that added when the year applies to all subpages of the work, and they should not be added. We should not be adding dates where we cannot determine the year of publication.

    MarkLSteadman Template:header explains the alternative ways to add dates, and I will also note that we can use a decade eg. 1820sin a year field and it displays and categorises fine. — billinghurst sDrewth 14:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

     Comment I personally strongly disagree that "they should not be added". While it may not be necessary to have the year info on a subpage, it is certainly useful (especially in anthologies and other collections where the subpages are also works per se). In my opinion, you could just as well argue that there is zero need for subpages to contain the work's title and author, when those fields apply to all subpages of the work. —Beleg Âlt BT (talk) 14:42, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
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