Wikisource:Copyright discussions/Archives/2021

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This is a discussion archive first created in 2021, although the comments contained were likely posted before and after this date.
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Summer (Abay) and Rysbekova[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
deleted as copyvio —Beleg Tâl (talk) 00:37, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

These translations of poems by Abay Qunanbayuli are from Selected Poems, published 1970 in Moscow. I could not find any indication of the dates of death of the individual translators (Dorian Rottenberg and Olga Shartse) and I suspect they are still living. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 22:08, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Symbol delete vote.svg Delete per nom. --Xover (talk) 08:31, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: —Beleg Tâl (talk) 00:37, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

License for Trump-Raffensperger Call Transcript[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Kept as {{PD-ineligible}}: the call consists entirely of off the cuff remarks which do not merit copyright protection, and the recording is unlikely to have independent copyright that concerns us.

Not sure about this one. It's a transcript of the call between you-know-who and the Secretary of State for Georgia. As a state official, Raffensperger's contribution isn't covered by {{PD-USgov}} (which applies to the federal government).

Courtesy ping to @Marcosoldfox: as the uploader. Also, could you indicate the source of the transcript? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 22:25, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I got it from CNN, from here "Read the full transcript and listen to Trump's audio call with Georgia secretary of state". . To be quite honest I thought that since it has become a public thing the copyright wouldn't be that much of an issue, but it's straight from CNN, which is a reputable news source. I copy-added the text into the transcript and added in the spacing and bold text afterwards. It's from here: "Read the full transcript and listen to Trump's audio call with Georgia secretary of state".  I'm not sure about the copyright issue, but I thought that since it's become a public thing, that it wouldn't matter that much. Plus, it's CNN so it's really verifiable. Marcosoldfox (talk) 22:40, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcosoldfox: if it had been a call between Trump and a senator, it would be unquestionably PD under US law. If the White House released the transcript, then I'm not sure where it would be. Copyright law is a bizarro world. Sadly for us, just because something is public, and by public officials in the course public duties doesn't necessarily make it public domain.
Thank you for the source! Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 22:54, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment You're welcome. I guess I should've actually added it was from CNN in the comments section somewhere, but I didn't know exactly where to put the references. Honestly it's a bummer it isn't considered in the public domain even though it was said by a public official, but I think it definitely should be, considered how public this is becoming as of lately. But if the page is to be deleted, then that would be completely understandable, to be quite honest. I do understand that it is an ongoing issue just like the Watergate back in the Nixon days but I think that CNN still holds the rights to it in some form, even if it was said by a public official. I think that if it's deleted it'd be OK, even though I'd still like if it could be up so that editors could use it as source for reference, writing, etc. Thanks for commenting.

@Marcosoldfox: We'll have a discussion about it first. I'm not 100% sure where this falls, since Trump + team's contributions are PD as they are all federal employees.
I do hope you're not too discouraged (If it helps, my first-ever WS contribution was summarily nuked over at deWS with much less discussion.) and we can persuade you to stick around for some other juicy political shenanigans? Perhaps The Pentagon Papers or many many smaller pieces around the place? I'm more than happy to faff about with scans and stuff for you to work with :-) Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 00:03, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment It is a conversation, it is not an artistic work, so my understanding is that copyright does not come into play. => {{PD-ineligible}} Works Not Fixed in a Tangible Form of Expression. Some could say that all words from Trump are a work of fiction, however, we have USGov employee to cover that at this time. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:32, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It would be great if some way to include this were found, but I am afraid PD-ineligible is probably not the right one: Unless recorded, an oral communication, such as a personal or telephone conversation, cannot be copyrighted. And our conversation was recorded. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are misinterpreting the statement, there is no direct inverse. Cannot be copyrighted in circumstance A, does not mean that all other circumstances are copyright, just that circumstance. The recording itself may have copyright for its recording value, but that does not copyright the words. — billinghurst sDrewth 07:54, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
True. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 09:14, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. A logical (like that counts for much with copyright!) view is that if the conversation cannot attract copyright on its own, then making a recording of it doesn't retrospectively conjure up a copyright of the conversation, but it could well create a copyright for the recording. In this case, the fact that a recording popped up some time later shouldn't (in a sane world) retroactively copyright the conversation that would have been PD-ineligible until the recording appeared. But, then again, URAA teaches us that snatching things back from the PD can happen sometimes. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment A couple of factors…
    First, as there are multiple people on the call, all in different roles and capacities, we would need to assess copyright individually for each of their contributions. And it is not at all clear what roles each participant is acting in in this call: it would be entirely reasonable to conclude that Trump cannot be acting as POTUS here, since election interference is a federal crime, and is thus not covered by PD-USGov exemptions. But that's mainly going to be irrelevant, because…
    This is a telephone conversation consisting entirely of off the cuff remarks (not even Meadows' opening spiel reads as if it was prepared in advance), so the conversation as such is ineligible for copyright. Straight audio recordings—which is the most likely way this was fixed in a tangible form—are also not eligible for independent copyright. And simply transcribing such a recording as text involves no creativity that would rise above mere mechanical reproduction. Barring truly exceptional circumstances then, there is nothing here that is eligible for copyright protection.
    However, there are non-copyright issues we need to consider. Where did CNN (or was it WaPo originally?) get this transcript? Is it actually a public record? Was the recording legal (states' laws and federal law vary on legal requirements for recordings of telephone conversations) in the first place? Was the path through which the media got the transcript a legal channel? The media have rights, protections, and legal defences that do not apply to us or our reusers. If this was illegally recorded or illegally leaked (think Manning), or if the transcript is considered classified, our reusers could end up hiding in the Ecuadorian embassy in London. I don't think any such factors apply here, but I haven't looked closely enough to feel at all certain about it.
    As a purely personal opinion, I think things like this should be out of scope for enWS as mere data rather than something that has been actually published and contextualised. It's not out of scope under current policy, so I won't belabour the point, but it is a bad fit for us in every way and we bring very little added value here. --Xover (talk) 09:02, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Yeah, bro, it's fine. I don't know about every non-copyright issue out there though so I don't know all of the little details on every issue about this sort of stuff. I mean, I literally put in the references on CNN and so it was reasonable to assume it would go but not with the copyright stuff. Most I was concerned though that they'd copyright-claim it like they'd on YouTube. I mean, I literally just copy-pasted it from CNN and it's referenced, and it's got no copyrighted images/video so it was reasonable to assume it'd go fine but I wasn't so sure about copyright; but hopefully they wouldn't copyright-claim or anything. If there are any non-copyright issues there then I can't know every single one of them; it came from CNN though and it's referenced. With copyright I'd justifiably think it's fine though but can never be too sure."Read the full transcript and listen to Trump's audio call with Georgia secretary of state".  The text comes straight copy-pasted from CNN and you can see it yourself. I mean, it was literally copy-pasted from CNN. I'm not sure though about all those problems that you mention but if it's that problematic with both copyright and non-copyright, then I'd think it'd be cool to delete it for the time being. I mean, other pages get deleted for much less all the time, wikipedia or otherwise.

If it's that problematic then put a deletion tag on it, please. Other articles/pages get that all the time that don't even deserve it sometimes. So if it could become that much of a problem then it's fine to delete it. I mean, I think it's fine too, but it's just a page for a hobby time killer after all; so if cause of copyright or other it gets taken down because it doesnt go with wikipedia policy or public domain, then that's fine. It's really too much time and effort spent just to pass the time either way. If you really feel like it is difficult to categorize it then I think it's reasonable to speedy-delete/G6. I mean, I'd think it'd go with what's acceptable to post on wikipedia but I don't know every issue that you mention -- ends up just making it a bore to post, respectfully. So if it really does pose so many hypothetical stuff as you're saying and there's little to add, then please delete it. If you really believe there's little value to add, then I'd appreciate it if you could put a speedy deletion for the time being. Thanks a lot --- I appreciate it.

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 11:33, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Revolutionary Nudism[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as clear copyvio.

IMO clear copyvio. The original English translation of the 1934 French Émile Armand’s text can be seen e. g. at There is written that the text was "retrieved on September 14, 2011 from", which is in French, so it means that the translation is only 9 years old. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 15:39, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 11:35, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-tung[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment It's unclear to me, but since the original book was compiled by the PLA Daily and originally published by the PLA General Political Department, does that make it a "government document"? The Foreign Languages Press is state-owned, so presumably it's a governmentally-commissioned translation. I have no earthly clue where that puts it though. If it is not a government work, the compilation by the government doesn't trump Mao's personal copyright, or the translation is not it's not in the Public Domain (which is particularly ironic in this case), as 廣九直通車 says, via the 1996 URAA restoration, and our descendants can revisit this in 2059. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 13:54, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nope, the Foreign Languages Press is a state-owned enterprise, as per their official website (外文出版社有限责任公司, Foreign Languages Press Limited). Also, not all Chinese government works are in local public domain, they are only limited to government edicts as per PD-PRC-exempt. Even if they qualified, they would have not pass the US copyright requirement of {{PD-EdictGov}} — still copyrightable in the US.
  • Also what I mean is that the copyright held by Mao (, his descendants) and the Foreign Languages Press don't fulfill the URAA limitation to enter US public domain. Per c:Template:PD-China, Mao's copyright enter's Chinese public domain after 50 years pma (i.e. 1976+50=2026), while the one held by Foreign Languages Press enters Chinese public domain 50 years after publish (i.e. 1966+50=2016). Both obviously exceeds the URAA year of 1996.
  • Hope these helps, thanks.廣九直通車 (talk) 03:46, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah, another similar copyright discussion has been found here, hope these also helps, regards.廣九直通車 (talk) 03:48, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Symbol delete vote.svg Delete Yes, you are right, the actual wording of Article 5 is laws, regulations, resolutions, decisions and orders of state organs; other documents of legislative, administrative or judicial nature; and their official translations;. Which I remember now that I've seen before. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 11:42, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 11:41, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On Spiritual Warfare[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Replaced by On The Spiritual Battle, an updated translation which does not contain quotes from non-free sources and which both the translator and the editor released into the public domain. The original page On Spiritual Warfare was changed into a redirect.

Tagged as no source, no license, unidentified translator since 2011.

However, on the talk page, MarkLSteadman identified the translation as [1]. The editor says:

This translation is under no copyright protection. It is my gift to you. You may freely copy, print, and transmit it, but please do not change or sell it.

This is self-contradictory and probably a misunderstanding of copyright: the translation is from 2009 so is copyrighted, and the statement includes no-derivatives and non-commercial clauses which are incompatible with our copyright policy. Additionally, to be nitpicky, the translator ought to grant any license in the translation, not the editor. Symbol delete vote.svg Delete BethNaught (talk) 00:19, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Could one argue that, if the translation is under no copyright protection, then derivatives and commercial use are permitted by law, and the stipulation to not change or sell it is a request that can be legally ignored? —Beleg Tâl (talk) 03:57, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Specifically to Beleg Tâl's point, it's not technically self-contradictory; one can make requests like "please do not change or sell it" without affecting the underlying public domain grant. But anyway you cut it, it's a dreadfully ambiguous license, and I feel it less than likely the intent was to put it in the public domain and not to restrict changing or selling it. If they were in a community that puts emphasis on open/free licenses, they would have written CC-Zero but we request you don't, or something like that. And does this work? In the US this might, though I think lawyers would much prefer "I, Joe Schmoe, place my translation in the public domain" to a statement that reads more like a (false) statement than a grant. My understanding is that EU law and most copyright law not based on US law dislikes the whole "dedicate to the public domain" thing, which is why CC-Zero is so much longer, so the fact the translator is Czech might be a problem.
And going back to BethNaught's point, did in fact the translator put it in the public domain? This whole thing is a careless sloppy mess, and I'm not really thrilled to have it here, unless someone can get clarification that the translator did in fact make that offer, and preferably a CC-0 license from the translator making their intent perfectly clear.--Prosfilaes (talk) 07:55, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and the document says "The source text for this translation is Eduard Petrů’s Little Writings (Drobné Spisy), published in 1966. I have used the New International Version (NIV) of the Bible except where the translation was closer in the King James (KJV)." So the source text has at best a complex relationship with the public domain, and the translation of the Bible most used is non-free.--Prosfilaes (talk) 07:57, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am trying to get contact to Charis Enns to ask for clarification.
As for the Bible translation, there are only short quotations, which I think is permitted by copyright laws. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 09:23, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Jan.Kamenicek: If you follow up there, make sure to use the OTRS process so we get all our p's and q's in order. --Xover (talk) 12:59, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The NIV has pretty broad rules about using verses from it, but I'd argue fair use is pretty weak on a substitutable work like a Bible translation where the author is saying nothing special about the NIV, and the real issue is we don't permit it.--Prosfilaes (talk) 19:23, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Prosfilaes: The right to quote has always been accepted by various world jurisdictions and e.g. Berne convention accepts it too. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 19:38, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure whether Fair Use and the Right to Quote are the same things, but e. g. Wikipedia does not allow fair use but allows quoting and I have never noticed there any copyright issues raised against it. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 19:42, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, now I have realized that English Wikipedia allows fair use, my mistake, but e. g. Czech Wikipedia does not while quoting is allowed there. I guess it is similar with other Wikipedias too. So that is why I assume that the right to quote is different from fair use. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 19:45, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's not separate in the US, and I don't think it was intended to be separate in Wikisource policy. (The legalities don't concern me as much, though unless you're following the NIV explicit permission, I'm concerned how much quoting is allowed in various countries, and in the US, you're using a very replaceable translation for its underlying work, not the translation itself, which would weaken fair use justifications.) I am concerned about Wikisource policy; it at best pushes the line to be reproducing a serious bit of a modern copyrighted translation here for any purpose.
Also, edition copyrights are hairy and unpleasant; we wouldn't generally reproduce a new edition produced in 1966, and while some editions are mild spelling changes and a few choice decisions about readings, you can get some pretty distinctive merging of seriously different originals in some cases, distinctiveness that would show up clearly through translation.--Prosfilaes (talk) 05:40, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Symbol delete vote.svg Delete per Prosfilaes. --Xover (talk) 12:59, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Symbol keep vote.svg Keep I have contacted the translator Charis Enns and both she and her co-worker Tom Lock have agreed to release the translation under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 licence. I can now take further steps and upload the PDF copy of the work to Commons and verify it through OTRS, but before doing so I would like to close this discussion reach agreement first because I do not want to do all the work and bother both translators with sending further emails to OTRS should this work be deleted in Wikisource anyway. Although I understand the concerns raised by Prosfilaes, I hope they are not a real obstacle for keeping this translation after the translators released their work under a free licence. Pinging also @BethNaught, @Xover:. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 16:30, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • If we can get it released under CC-BY-SA 3.0, that's great. Barring concerning evidence about the matter, I'm willing to drop worries about the underlying edition. But I'm still concerned about extensive quoting from non-free sources. We or they could switch to something like the American Standard Version or its recent updating the w:World English Bible / Bible (World English).--Prosfilaes (talk) 20:35, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • You've addressed my original concerns, but I'm still unsure about the NIV issues Prosfilaes raised. Firstly, the work does not reproduce the copyright statement required by the NIV licensing rules. Secondly, even if that were remedied, I'm still concerned about quoting so much non-free text: is it in line with our copyright policy? It's not fair use (which is forbidden) because, modulo the missing copyright statement, it seems to comply with the NIV license. But does that license impose too many restrictions on downstream users to be considered non-free according to our free content definition? BethNaught (talk) 11:40, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      After further discussing the issue with both the translator and editor of the text, they allowed me to replace the NIV quotations with those from the World English Bible, which I did. The editor also dropped out the note forbidding changes to the text and its commercial use, so now it is in public domain. I also found and corrected there a minor mistake in a quotation number, and one external link to a dead site was updated in a footnote. After checking it they published the updated text at (PDF here), so if you agree, I will upload the PDF file to Commons, found the page On The Spiritual Battle, change the current page On Spiritual Warfare into a redirect, and hide all non-free revisions of that page. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 11:56, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Prosfilaes, @BethNaught, @Xover: I think I did not perform the ping properly, so one more try. Apologies, if you get it twice. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 14:19, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Done, see On The Spiritual Battle. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 00:42, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Thank you! I'm happy with that. Only thing left is to verify permissions from Enns and Lock using OTRS, but I'm sure you have that in hand. BethNaught (talk) 09:27, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Tom Lock has granted the permission directly in the Editor’s note. I have asked Charis Enns to send a confirmation email to OTRS. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 11:44, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      So Charis Enns has written the confirmation email to OTRS, but she received an answer that they need not only her consent, but the consent of Petr Chelčický too :-D. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 16:54, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Confirmed in OTRS. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:51, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Jan Kameníček (talk) 13:19, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Governor's Speech at Farewell Ceremony of Hong Kong Handover 1997[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

The text is a speech made by Christopher Patten at 1997-06-30. As a Hong Kong official work (not a government edict, because it has no administrative/legislative/judicial purposes/functions), it is protected by government copyright according to Template:PD-HKGov, and as it is first made after the URAA date of 1996-01-01, the text is still copyrightable in the United States.廣九直通車 (talk) 11:39, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 12:57, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What is an Anarchist?[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Original is PD through expiry, translation is released under {{CC-BY-SA-3.0}}

Source seems which would imply expiry 95 years after publication (1925) of the original and the translation is CC-BY-SA which would imply it could be hosted correct? MarkLSteadman (talk) 16:47, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On upload they cited, which then referred elsewhere. If we can determine that this is the translator, then I would agree with you. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:04, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah references which references the link I posted. MarkLSteadman (talk) 22:49, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 21:17, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Life[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Not documentable as public domain.

Une vie (aka. L'Humble Vérité) is an 1883 French novel by Guy de Maupassant (1850–1893). It was first translated into English as A Woman's Life, and was included in multiple The Works of … collections up through about 1909. None of these, that I have found, identify the translator and I have found no third party source that discusses it.

Our text is titled A Life (arguably both better and more accurate) which is, aiui, a more modern (latter half of the 20th-century) translation of the title. It also has several features of being a modern text, looking not unlikely to have been copied from a modern ebook edition. Except my recent cleanup it has essentially no wiki formatting: it's just the raw text. But it's not OCR text, so whatever the source was it was formatted by humans. It also does not identify the translator, nor even assert a translation license.

Unless someone can identify the specific translation this is from, I think we'll have to assume it's a modern one and still in copyright. --Xover (talk) 18:55, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 20:53, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nature articles[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Original article as published is not freely licensed. If proper permissions under a compatible license is documented through OTRS it can be uploaded, but otherwise not.

In the paper I recently uploaded here it is part of a seminal science series which outlines the discussion and proposals of international changes to global species management. The first paper in the series was published in Nature, which is owned by Springer, published here. From my knowledge of Springer and the journal Nature, I am imagining there is no way this one will meet copywrite requirements here. Would I be correct in this? Cheers Faendalimas (talk) 18:56, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Faendalimas: I see no indication this article is compatibly licensed, no. However, for your project it may be worthwhile to contact the authors. Depending on their contract with Nature it is possible (unlikely given what little I know of those contracts, but possible) they retain sufficient rights to publish a copy under a compatible license. --Xover (talk) 19:14, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Xover: yeah thats what I suspected. I know the aithors they are my coauthors in other papers in this. I doubt Nature, or in reality the publisher Springer, left them with such rights, I have published there too. However I will ask the authors if they would contact Nature for permission in writing. See what happens. Nature were actually very happy with this series of papers, including the parts they did not publish, and may like to see all the parts of it together, so long as they get due credit for the one paper they published. If they say no nothing has changed. Its not uploaded yet I wont upload anything that breaches copywrite. Cheers Faendalimas (talk) 19:28, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Faendalimas: They can use the OTRS process described at c:COM:OTRS process. They can make permissions enWS if they so choose, or they can do Commons+. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:19, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 20:57, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Anthem of antioquia[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

The national anthem of Antioquia, originally a 19th-century poem now long out of copyright. However, I can find no provenance for this English translation. The anthem was officially adopted in 2010, and the text was added here the same year so it seems likely the translation was made that year. Absent specific information to the contrary it seems we can only conclude that this is a modern translation. --Xover (talk) 19:08, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 20:58, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Caracas Commitment[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

A resolution from the "First Latin American Meeting of the Encounter of Recovered Companies" which took place in 2005. From what I can tell the original was in one of the Latin American languages, and I can find no provenance for this translation. It was added in 2009 and 2011 by Toussaint (no longer active) and RayneVanDunem (still edits intermittently). Absent information to the contrary we must assume that both the original and the translation are still in copyright. --Xover (talk) 22:13, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 20:59, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

People's Daily Editorials[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as probable copyvio. Contributor was requested to provide licensing information over a year ago with no response.

Do we know if works of the People's Daily are copyrighted in the United States? I would guess that those before 1970 are copyright-free in China due to expiration but only those before 1946 when the URAA went into affect are copyright free in the US due to expiration? However, some of them may have been published in translation before 1964 and then covered by non-Renewal (e.g. by Foreign Language Press)? I don't think it counts as an official government work. Some works I found here are:

MarkLSteadman (talk) 23:41, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol delete vote.svg Delete{{PD-PRC-exempt}} doesn't cover official documents other than government edicts, and the fact that we don't even know the author and year of publication make determining whether the texts are in U.S. public domain almost impossible.廣九直通車 (talk) 07:45, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The author is presumably corporate as an editorial. The publication dates in China were Dec. 31 1962 (, March 4 1963 ( and April 5 1956 ( I would assume it would work as non-renewal if that came out within 30 days in the US of being published abroad? MarkLSteadman (talk) 18:22, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 21:25, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Remarks by President Biden in a CNN Town Hall with Anderson Cooper deleted[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Undelete declined. Interviewer's questions etc. are covered by copyright.

User:Billinghurst deleted this with the rationale that one of the two persons in the conversation is not a federal government employee. Is there a copyright for seemingly spontaneous comments that mostly cannot be copyright-able due to their length and lack of creative complexity? To see the conversation: Additionally, there are audience questions: it's not clear to me that these are copyright-able either. Does anyone have a perspective on this? If there is something that could be covered by copyright, maybe it's the introduction that could be something considered copyright-able for its length: if so, let's remove that and keep the question and answer portion. —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:27, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The previous commentary for interviews is that they have levels of preparation and scripted questions. Each interviewer and questioner owns the copyright to their component. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:32, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But you can't have a copyright on "And considering that hybrid and virtual school instruction have been in place for nearly a year now, what is the plan and recommendation to get students back into the brick-and-mortar buildings? As a parent of four children, I find it imperative that they get back to school as safely as possible." that is not sufficiently original or creative as a work. And questions like, "So when do you think that would be — K-through-8, at least five days a week if possible?" are both too short to copyright and are spontaneous speaking. What other than possibly the introductory material could be copyrighted? Even that is fairly brief and could be easily excised. What precedent is there that "What about the Uyghurs? What about the human rights abuses in China?" is something that can have a copyright in the United States? —Justin (koavf)TCM 01:27, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, yes you can. Length is not in itself determinative of eligibility for copyright. Interview questions and overall plan for the interview are inevitably prepared in advance; the interviewer will have researched the topics to prepare for the interview; and someone's perceived skill and popularity as an interviewer hinges in part on that preparation. Unless there is some novel factor in play here, this work is still in copyright and ineligible for hosting on Wikisource. --Xover (talk) 07:58, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To note: Author pages can have links to externally hosted works—when within our scope—that are published elsewhere and are not a breach of copyright. So fair use works, CC-NC licensed or where the author has published the work are acceptable. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:01, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Xover: "Length is not in itself determinative of eligibility for copyright" You are directly contradicted by the United States Copyright Office: "Words and short phrases [...] are uncopyrightable because they contain an insufficient amount of authorship. The Office will not register individual words or brief combina-tions of words, even if the word or short phrase is novel, distinctive, or lends itself to a play on words... Examples of names, titles, or short phrases that do not contain a sufficient amount of creativity to support a claim in copyright include... Mottos, slogans, or other short expressions". Where are you getting your information and why are you saying that this circular is incorrect? —Justin (koavf)TCM 04:37, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is rather more than "short expressions": Cooper's contributions are multiple sentences. A single sentence like "I saw a picture of you with your grandson recently." is almost certainly not copyrightable, but his entire contribution to this document is (since it's not an off-the-cuff conversation, c.f. Trump-Raffensperger Call Transcript, but a semi-scripted, pre-prepared event). The guidance you reference is more about disallowing slapping anyone using basic linguistic constructions with a copyright suit. It was a dark and stormy night. by itself probably wouldn't attract copyright, but the text of Paul Clifford would be (it were published today). It's an limitation of the principle that you can make a copyrighted text out of words, even if words themselves are public domain, to set the threshold above building blocks of language like phrases, and to avoid Marvel being able to sue anyone who dared to utter "You're not going alone!" because it was in one of their films.
Mottos and slogans can still be protected under trademark rules. Examples of where copyright doesn't apply, but trademark does is the Google wordmark. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 22:00, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, responding here by request, even though Inductiveload covers the essence above.
The Copyright Office's Circular 33 does not actually say that text that is shorter than an arbitrary length is ineligible for copyright. In addition to the distinction between what the law is and what are mere practices of the Copyright Office (which distinction is mainly academic), what they actually write is Words and short phrases, such as names, titles, and slogans, are uncopyrightable because they contain an insufficient amount of authorship. That is, what makes them uncopyrightable is not their length but their insufficient amount of authorship, and the length is just a proxy for that. The distinction is relevant because "short" can be quite subjective, as aptly demonstrated by the kinds of things they list as an example:
  • The name of an individual (including pseudonyms, pen names, or stage names)
  • The title or subtitle of a work, such as a book, a song, or a pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work
  • The name of a business or organization
  • The name of a band or performing group
  • The name of a product or service
  • A domain name or URL
  • The name of a character
  • Catchwords or catchphrases
  • Mottos, slogans, or other short expressions
That is, their intended interpretation is not the colloquial "short" but rather something like "extremely short". For the two latter bullets, think "Bazinga!" or "Stop the Steal!" rather than "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; / Or close the wall up with our English dead.". A Haiku, for example, is eminently copyrightable: "The west wind whispered, / And touched the eyelids of spring: / Her eyes, Primroses." And the questions in that interview are mostly into the haiku length rather than "Bazinga!".
But as Inductiveload points out above, that all is mostly irrelevant because you can't really separate out shorter and shorter pieces of a whole in order to call it uncopyrightable. You can't assess a single sentence out of a book as too short and cumulatively end up with a whole novel that is uncopyrightable. The questions exist in a context and make up part of a whole; so for copyright purposes we have to assess the work as a whole. --Xover (talk) 11:36, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Xover: Of course, I am not suggesting that you can cut any copyrighted text into individual letters and therefore, you can add them up to a non-copyright-able work (i.e. w:en:heap paradox); I'm simply responding to your claim that "Length is not in itself determinative of eligibility for copyright" which is not the case: if you have a short work, there can be no sufficient level of originality or authorship for copyright purposes. I agree that one can construct an entire interview or dialogue made up of short pieces that themselves add up to a copyright-able work. @Inductiveload: "Mottos and slogans can still be protected under trademark rules" sure but that was never in dispute. —Justin (koavf)TCM 03:10, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 21:31, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Early Christian Attitude To War/foreword[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
File moved locally due to non-expired UK copyright in Foreword.

In checking up on the authors of this with a view to uploading scans from internet archive for this work, I found that the Foreword is by Rev. W.E. Orchard (20 November 1877 – 12 June 1955). The foreword is thus not necessarily PD outside the US for another 6 years or so, It is PD in the US (as pre 1926)

The rest of the work IS pd in the UK as Cadoux died in 1947.

I am bringing this here for a second opinion ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:16, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ShakespeareFan00: Your assessment sounds correct to me. --Xover (talk) 14:24, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note that I uploaded a scan to Commons. If it needs to be amended, please {{Ping}} me and I will take out pages, etc. —Justin (koavf)TCM 19:23, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Koavf: I wouldn't take out the pages, I would just load blank pages in their place and upload with annotation, and then get the first version deleted. Doing it that way allows for the easy revert in the years ahead, when that copyright has expired. Voila! the full work will be back. — billinghurst sDrewth 20:45, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Correct: Strictly speaking, "taking out" pages would impact the pagination, which actually matters for print sources. Good distinction. —Justin (koavf)TCM 20:47, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Since it's a 1919 publication, it's automatically PD-US per publication +95, so just upload it at enWS and we can move back to Commons after 1955 + 70 (so, 2026)? You only need to blank pages if you must have it at Commons. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 21:39, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Koavf: Per Inductiveload above, you need to reupload the PDF locally here on enWS and then tag it for deletion at Commons (before someone else does it). Tag the local file with {{do not move to commons|expiry=2026}}. enWS only considers US copyright (while Commons also considers status in country of origin), so you can usually assume any work published more than 95 years ago is sufficiently public domain for enWS (I'm sure there are exceptions somewhere, but as a rule of thumb…). We can transwiki back to Commons with FileExporter once its UK copyright expires. --Xover (talk) 21:40, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Thanks. —Justin (koavf)TCM 21:57, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 16:53, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Remarks by John McCain at the 1988 Republican National Convention[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
No consensus to delete; but neither is this (lack of) discussion any kind of precedent for future discussions.

I think Remarks by John McCain at the 1988 Republican National Convention is not covered by the copyright it is tagged with. This was not a work McCain created in his capacity as a federal employee. He delivered it as a private citizen. I believe that this, like the speech being discussed above by Ivanka Trump at the 2020 RNC, needs to be deleted. SecretName101 (talk) 07:16, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Symbol keep vote.svg Keep McCain was a sitting Senator at the time, meaning wide latitude for public appearances to fall within his duties. I would personally be inclined to exclude anything at the national conventions (or other election events) from PD-USGov, but in this case that would be inconsistent with our practice. --Xover (talk) 20:20, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 08:16, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Republic of Turkey Prime Ministry press statement of April 23, 2014[edit]

The following discussion is closed:

Translation of a press statement of Turkish politician. I don't see that political statements from Turkish politicians are in the public domain. Looking at Commons there is no evident exclusion that we can apply. Further the translation is unsourced, and just says unofficial so no knowledge whether it is by the contributor or just taken from somewhere.

if we delete the page, then we should also delete Author:Recep Tayyip Erdoğan with our usual wording of no works in the public domain; alternatively shut it down with a {{copyright author}} statement. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:59, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 08:18, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dead Sea scrolls/11Q13[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
speedied as copyvio —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:53, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The source document of this page is unclear. The English content may be drawn from The Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation - Revised Edition, published 2005, in which case it is probably a copyright violation. I haven't investigated the other sources linked on this page but they seem likely to be under copyright as well. I also have not investigated the Korean content, but that doesn't belong on English Wikisource regardless.

CalendulaAsteraceae (talk) 03:54, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Symbol delete vote.svg Delete These are all extracted from various post-1990 publications and the transcriptions and translations are all under their respective authors' copyright. They are also blatant enough that I'll speedy them shortly. --Xover (talk) 15:02, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:53, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dead Sea scrolls/4Q158[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
speedied as copyvio —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:54, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Translation by Warren Rohde & Rick Bohn, prepared for a course at St Joseph's University, no indication of a free license whatsoever. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 01:09, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:54, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dead Sea scrolls from Scrolls from the Dead Sea[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
speedied as copyvio —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:59, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Several translations from the Library of Congress exhibition Scrolls from the Dead Sea have been uploaded with a note that, since they are from the LoC website, they are in the public domain. I am inclined to disagree with this assessment.

Beleg Tâl (talk) 01:33, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Beleg Tâl: As mentioned up above I found these all to be blatant copyvio. Did you find any in there that weren't at best questionable? --Xover (talk) 04:33, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Xover: I thought you were just referring to the one page in question. I found a couple that appear to be user translations, but that's it. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:49, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:59, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2020 Republican National Convention/Ivanka Trump's speech[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted. No evidence being covered by PD-USGov. May be undeleted only with better evidence.

This is not a public domain speech. It is irrelevant that Trump is a government employee. This speech was not part of their government work, and therefore is not automatically public domain. I tried nominating it for speedy deletion on these grounds (it is quite cut and dry: since it's not part of her work as a government employee, it is not automatically public domain), but someone stopped that wrongly arguing that, because of her government employment, there is nuance to it. There is no nuance. This was entirely a campaign speech, not a speech delivered as part of her government work. SecretName101 (talk) 21:05, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It has been the practice to maintain those convention speeches of those in government employment, well specifically the politicians. There is plenty of previous discussion in archives that should be read as part of the contemplation. Interestingly as her own job was contingent on the speech. If it was anyone else but the Trumps you may have an argument, however, this family has done their best to take the government and the political into the private. . — billinghurst sDrewth 00:07, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment For reference:
Since this stuff comes up every election, we need to write it down somewhere if we have decided something. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 00:39, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]


and my memory was that we basically fell into the space of an active Federal government politician / employee at the convention was pretty much fair game. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:35, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

@Billinghurst:, the Trumps are not treated any differently by copyright laws than anyone else is. Her job was not "contingent" on this speech. While they are, perhaps, related, this speech was simply not a part of her official role as advisor to the president. Only speeches written and delivered in her official duties would be devoid of copyright protection as works of a federal government employee as part of their job.. SecretName101 (talk) 07:12, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Symbol delete vote.svg Delete PD-USGov is contingent on the person's duties, and has wide latitude. If you make a speech as an otherwise private individual, at the local ornithological society for example, and your federal government job was watching seagull migrating from Russia for the NSA, your speech would probably be considered to fall under PD-USGov. Representatives' and Senators' duties include lots of speechmaking, including kissing babies and schmoozing, and any number of things that would count as the very opposite of "doing your job" in any other profession. Their speeches and statements can usually be assumed to be PD-USGov unless specific factors suggest otherwise. However, normal executive branch federal government employees are forbidden from electioneering, so a speech by such an employee at a party conference is ipso facto not a part of their official duties. In this specific case, in other words, Ivanka Trump's speech at the 2020 RNC is not covered by PD-USGov and her personal copyright applies. --Xover (talk) 19:33, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: --Jusjih (talk) 04:25, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Works by Saša Milivojev[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Out of scope, and with insufficient copyright provenance.

These works are being added partly by user:Milivojevsasa and partly by an IP address. I can see there two problems:

  1. Copyright.
    • The contributor adds {{PD-author-release}} to the works, but there is no sign if he is really the same person with the author Saša Milivojev. The poems come from a selfpublished webpage, where it is written that the work is copyrighted, see e. g. The pain of the world.
    • The poems were translated into English by another author who also does not seem to release the work under a free licence
    • Some of the poems were published on a site which also claims copyright to all their published materials, e. g. the poem New Oath was published by which claims all rights reserved for all material contained on this web, and so I think we would need not only the consent of the author and the translator, but also consent of this publisher too.
  2. Scope. After the contributor was notified that it is not enough if the poems were just selfpublished, he started adding comments into the code, referring to web pages where the poems have appeared. Some of them are copyrighted (see above), but others like just seem to publish everything somebody sends them, without any editorial control of professional poetry reviewers.

Unfortunately, the contributor does not react to what people write him on his talk page.

BTW, all this seems to be just an action of selfpromotion. Everything began with founding the page Saša Milivojev starting: Saša Milivojev is a famous writer, poet, journalist columnist and political analyst… The same wording can be found in the selfpublished web page of Saša Milivojev and the same wording can be also found Milivojev’s profiles in the web pages where he sends the poems, which again suggests that they simply accept everything what somebody sends them without any editorial control, including the characteristics of the person, and so are not a good source for us. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 15:15, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Milivojevsasa All poems already published in books and many websites and printed in many newspapers and magazines in different languages. Deleting these poems is vandalism and discrimination on the Wiki network

@Milivojevsasa: Can you say which books, newspapers and magazines were they published in? --Jan Kameníček (talk) 16:18, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Jan.Kamenicek: Books: When the Firefly is Gone; The Boy from the Yellow house, The secret behind a Sigh, in Shashati Magazine in Egypt, in Horreyati magazine in Egypt, in Anba News in Saudi Arabia, in Al Akhbar, in WRITER’S JOURNAL OF THE ASSOCIATION OF SERBIAN WRITTERS, in Pravda dialy Newspapers. And for everything we have proofs. Some poems have been printed in a million copies in dialy newspapers and author don’t need “self promotion” on Wiki network, but Deletion is vadalism and discrimination. Some poems even you can find recited by famous actors in public. and all poems are available on various websites, so why not “Public domain” license tags
@Milivojevsasa: Just to make things clear, may I ask if you are Saša Milivojev, the author of the discussed poems? Jan Kameníček (talk) 17:02, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Jan.Kamenicek: He is with me right now in coffeeshop, he don’t know editing on Wiki networks, he is author of poems and he can send permissions by email if need. Thank You
@Milivojevsasa: If you are not yourself Saša Milivojev, why have you registered an account in their name? What, exactly, is the relationship between yourself and Saša Milivojev? What is it you hope to achieve by posting these works to Wikisource? Are you and Saša Milivojev aware that by releasing these works into the public domain anyone is free to reuse and modify them in any way they choose, including exploiting them for commercial purposes? And that this may negatively affect the original author's ability to get them published or to get paid for them?
Also, you list a lot of places that have allegedly published a work by Saša Milivojev, but not in any specific terms. Could you please pick one of these works and specify exactly where it was previously published in a way that would meet our inclusion criteria? Please pay particular attention to the "editorial controls" aspect. --Xover (talk) 17:37, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Xover, @Xover: It’s already published everywhere and everyone can use it. For Example: Eyes Its published in a book “When the Firefly is Gone”, in Serbian, English and Arabic, publisher: Filip Fišnjić, Belgrade, Serbia, 2010. Кад свитац одлети (When the firefly is gone, ساشا ميليفويف - عندما تحلق اليراعة), (Филип Вишњић, Београд, 2010). ISBN 978-86-7363-630-6. Check

Serbian original This website have editors. This is the website of the Association of Poets of Serbia

These verses r also published with interview of ySaša Milivojev for Pravda Newspapers in Serbia:

Famous acctress reading these verses, you can find on YouTube also

@Milivojevsasa: Filip Fišnjić does not appear to have any presence on the web, and I am having trouble finding other works they have published. Can you provide more information about this publisher? Also, if you could address my other questions that would be good. --Xover (talk) 21:01, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have contacted Saša Milivojev using the email from what seems to be his own website. I have received a confirmation that the user using here the username Milivojevsasa is a person known to him and that the poems were added here with his consent. He also asked for advice how to confirm the release of rights. Supposing that the mentioned webpage really belongs to this author and that I really communicated with the author, it seems that the copyright problem could be solved (although we still do not know the opinion of the translator too). What remains to solve is the question of scope… Unfortunately, I failed to find any bookseller offering a book called "When the Firefly is Gone". I also tried searching the ISBN 9788673636306 and one searchmachine found the book (here), but it seems it is in Serbian, not in English, and I was not able to check the content. So, although I am not as convinced about the deletion as I was in the beginning, I am still quite hesitant. What do others think? --Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:35, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here is more info on the book: [2]. It seems it contains poems in 3 languages including English. However, I am not sure how to contact translator "Alchemist" and how to verify their identity. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:42, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]



The contents of the book “When the Firefly is Gone” are poems published on WikiSource. The translation agency “Alkemist” was paid more than 10 years ago for the translation, and only the author of the book has the copyright according to the agreement, and according to the Law on Copyright in Serbia. We can sign the translators under each poem, not problem. The same songs were published on the website of the author, on the website of the Association of Poets of Serbia, on the website, and others, in many newspapers and magazines around the world that no longer have an online archive, but we can find proofs if need more something. You can find each poem separately on other websites and please do not delete it, we can use free license tags with the consent of the author.

The Publisher “Filip Višnjić printed and published the book without a written contract, only the author has all the rights

@Milivojevsasa: Filip Višnjić does not list this work in their catalogue, nor does it appear in most other bibliographic databases under this publisher. Filip Višnjić also appears to be a special-interest vanity press rather than a general purpose or academic publisher; and as a primarily Serbian nationalist publisher they appear to exclusively publish works written in Serbian (and in fact publish several works hostile to the main English-speaking countries). Are you certain the English-language edition of this work was published by Filip Višnjić, rather than by a cooperating publisher?
But you have still not answered my questions from a previous message: If you are not yourself Saša Milivojev, why have you registered an account in their name? What, exactly, is the relationship between yourself and Saša Milivojev? What is it you hope to achieve by posting these works to Wikisource? Are you and Saša Milivojev aware that by releasing these works into the public domain anyone is free to reuse and modify them in any way they choose, including exploiting them for commercial purposes? And that this may negatively affect the original author's ability to get them published or to get paid for them?
Finally, if the author's intent is to release these works as {{CC-Zero}}, why are those licensing terms not evident on the author's website? That would be the very simplest way to apply the relevant license to the works. --Xover (talk) 00:04, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Xover, @Xover:

See, sold out Its online bookstore, you can see who is publisher, isbn, reviews and details. Its book in 3 languages: one page English, one page Serbian, one page Arabic, total 205 pages. I am sister of the author, I am using his account bcs I want to help him to re-publish his poems on WikiSource, he already personally gave his consent to :@Jan.Kamenicek: by email. “Filip Visnjic” is one of the most reputable publishing houses in Belgrade. They published one book in 3 languages. They also published several novels and historical literature in English, the publishing house is very old. The author agrees to make his poetry available to anyone on WikiSource under a free license. The author's website does not specify a license because the website designer does not know how to use it. These poems are certainly available to the public, on websites, on public domains, these poems have been published in poetry anthologies, newspapers, magazines and have been recited on televisions

@Xover, @Xover:

No, that's definitely not true. Publisher “Filip Višnjić” has no political preoccupation, it is an independent publishing house, not nationalistic, they have published very important scientific studies, academically, professionally, in its history they have collaborated with well-known authors and university professors. You can also contact the National Library of Serbia to find out more about publisher, and even the Museum. Its not important Who is publisher, anyhow they don’t have contract with the author, it is important that the author agrees to republish his poetry on WikiS

This is in Library catalog

@Milivojevsasa: Filip Višnjić's catalogue would seem to disagree with you, but be that as it may… I think you may be misapprehending a few things. First, the purpose of Wikisource is not to enable someone to (re)publish works that they cannot get published through a traditional publisher, typically through a literary agent. If your goal is to get these works published you need to talk to a traditional publisher. Wikisource is not a "free web host" for random excerpts of works that may or may not meet our inclusion criteria: there are any number of other places on the web where you can publish whatever you want, including your own website (so I still wonder why you would want to host them here instead of your own website). For modern works we need to establish that a given work meets certain criteria, such as being published in some fashion that applies proper editorial controls etc., and so far these works do not appear to pass that bar. Secondly, and as a separate issue, we also need to ensure that a work's copyright status or licensing is compatible with our copyright policy. So far we have multiple assertions that they are public domain, but at the same time you do not leave the impression that you actually understand what the legal implications of this term are. That you have a personal website that you refer to as the source for these texts, but at the same time assert that the licensing terms cannot be added there because "the website designer does not know how to use it", is simply not a plausible explanation. --Xover (talk) 11:17, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Xover, @Xover:

You want to say that “Filip Višnjić” did not publish his book? - I'm finding all this pretty pointless, bcs You just want to delete his poems. You can see the book registred in libraries and there is publisher name in details, everywhere informations r avaliable to everyone. You have personal reason or you are paid to delete. I understand very well. So if you will be happy when you delete his poems - delete them. These verses have been published all over the world in several languages, professional, in dialy newspapers, in anthologies, in reputable magazines, and these verses from this book have been recited on national televisions by famous actors. Contact me by email and I can send you everything if you want to see

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 07:01, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Translation:The Man Who Planted Trees[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

Wikisource translation of a 1953 French novel. The translation as such is fine, but the original is asserted to be "public domain" due to a letter from the author quoted on the work's talk page on frWS. It has been deleted and restored multiple times due to questions about the copyright on the translation, and was finally retranslated by Wikisource contributors. However, in all this back and forth nobody seems to have actually checked the (unverified, btw) text of that letter. What it actually says is that the author has permitted several translations of the work for free (that is, the author has not charged the translators a licensing fee). There is no mention of any release of rights into the public domain, or any other sort of free(dom) license. In fact, since this is an explicitly ecopolitical work and the author permitted translations explicitly to spread their message, there is every reason to suppose that he would have been opposed to allowing anyone to modify the work in any way. In other words, this is an obvious copyvio hiding under a smokescreen of advocacy. --Xover (talk) 21:30, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Symbol delete vote.svg Delete not only because of copyright. Wikisource:Translations clearly states A scan supported original language work must be present on the appropriate language wiki… but I failed to find any scan in As for copyright, I cannot speak French so I just assume that it is as Xover has described and that there are no signs of releasing the work under a free licence. In that case I agree with his reasoning and just note that the original should definitely go from too, as it is not acceptable when a Wikimedia project hosts texts which have not been clearly released under a licence allowing their translation for other Wikimedia projects (see meta:Copyright#Basics). --Jan Kameníček (talk) 16:26, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 15:10, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mer Hayrenik[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

"Mer Hayrenik" is the national anthem of Armenia. Originally written as a poem in the 19th century, it was briefly (1918–1920) the national anthem, fell out of use, and was the re-adoped as the anthem in 1991. Our copy of the text has no translator specified (and no translation license), and given the history it seems most likely to be a post-1991 translation. --Xover (talk) 22:02, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 15:12, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nocturnal (Silva)[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

Published posthumously in 1908, "Nocturno" is the best known poem by José Asunción Silva (1865–1896). Our text is an English translation copied from AllPoetry. Their licensing statement is "© by owner. provided at no charge for educational purposes". As such it is incompatible with our copyright policy. There are other translations of this poem, but they are all modern and still in copyright. --Xover (talk) 09:50, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 15:14, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Last Sermon of Muhammad by Shia Accounts[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

Pasted here by an IP in 2008. Based on the footnotes it looks like it might be cobbled together from multiple partial published translations. Googling various parts of the text finds other online English versions, all of whom are asserted to be modern and in copyright (the veracity of those claims is questionable, but not obviously false). There is an issue of scope if this is indeed cobbled together from multiple sources, but ultimately it is a translation without a specified source or translator so its copyright status is impossible to ascertain. --Xover (talk) 13:00, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 15:16, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thirty-Six Strategies[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

The Thirty-Six Stratagems are ancient Chinese proverbs on the theme "devious tactics in war" (think: Sun Tzu meets Machiavelli). Our current text has no source or translator specified, and according to Wikipedia: The original hand-copied paperback that is the basis of the current version was believed to have been discovered in China's Shaanxi province, of an unknown date and author, and put into print by a local publisher in 1941. The Thirty-Six Stratagems came to the public's attention after a review of it was published in the Chinese Communist Party's Guangming Daily newspaper on September 16, 1961. It is thus extremely unlikely that any English language translation existed before closer to 1970 (and thus are all still in copyright). --Xover (talk) 13:23, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like the explanations were added in 2005 w:Special:Diff/20159025 (and seem to be of fairly crap copyright provenance, but nearly all the links from then are dead, so that'll need more research to actually nail down) and have mutated since then. But that is all moot: these explanations are not even part of the original work, which is just the 36 proverbs as we see at zh:三十六計. A Wikisource translation of these is one thing (and easy enough, but maintaining an aptly-in-this-case-named w:Chinese wall is theoretically required), but the explanations are not in our purview. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 15:10, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 15:21, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Treaty of Kars[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

A treaty between the USSR and Turkey, signed in 1921 and ratified in 1922. Originally written in French and Russian. The English text was copied here in 2007 from Wikipedia, but tracing it back through revision history there shows the ultimate source to be Armenian News Network around 2004, and thus very much still in copyright. --Xover (talk) 13:39, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 15:25, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Informatics metrics and measures for a smart public health systems approach: Information science perspective[edit]

The following discussion is closed:

There is the licence {{CC-BY-4.0}} at the bottom of the page, but the given source speaks about a different licence which is not compatible with the given one, as it does not allow creation of derivatives. Maybe it can be even speedied? --Jan Kameníček (talk) 12:17, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? Says 4.0 and I don't see an NC note there.
Copyright © 2017 Timothy Jay Carney and Christopher Michael Shea. This is an open access article distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.
billinghurst sDrewth 13:54, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Jan.Kamenicek: I can't find any mention of a -ND (no derivative works) license, just plain CC BY (attribution). Can you explain where you found the mention of the -ND limitation? --Xover (talk) 15:30, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Xover: I did not see any mention of an -ND licence (which explicitely forbids derivatives), I just wrote that their license does not allow derivatives. It explicitely permits use and reproduction, but it does not say anything about derivatives. However, CC-BY licences do explicitely permit creation of derivatives and so it is imo not compatible with them. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 15:40, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jan.Kamenicek: Ah, I see. Yes, CC BY allows derivative works (you have to explicitly use -ND to forbid them). The -SA (Share Alike) we usually see is actually a form of additional limitation: it requires you to license derivative works under the same license, so that you can't, e.g., make the derivative work -NC or similar. But, in any case, are we then satisfied that this work is compatibly licensed? --Xover (talk) 15:51, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Xover: If we were, we would have to devise a different template, because the template that was used with this work explicitely says that derivatives are allowed, while the license accompanying the work in the source page does not say anything like that. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 15:58, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I have always understood that derivatives have to be explicitely allowed by the copyright owner, that it is not enough when they just do not mention derivatives in their licence. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 16:02, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jan.Kamenicek: In terms of copyright in general, yes, anything that isn't explicitly permitted through a license is reserved for the copyright owner. But the Creative Commons licenses (and other "copyleft" licenses) turn this on its head. If you look at the license deed for CC BY 4.0, you'll fid it says "You are free to: … Adapt—remix, transform, and build upon the material for any purpose, even commercially." It doesn't use the term "derivative work", but that is what it is referring to. CC BY is the basic CC license, and on top of it you can add various limitations on what people can do with it: -NC (not for commercial purposes), -ND (no derivative works), and -SA (you have to license derivative works under the same license). -NC and -ND are incompatible with our licensing policy, but base BY (requires only attribution) and SA are compatible. SA is odd in that it is a limitation, but it is a limitation that forces reusers to freely share their work under equal terms. --Xover (talk) 16:55, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, so when they say "Creative Commons Attribution License" they mean the basic CC-BY which includes allowance of derivatives by default, and so their following specification ("unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited") does not have to include it, because it can only add other conditions. Well, I am not really sure if the authors meant it that way, because their specification in fact chooses only some conditions from CC-BY, it does not try to add anything, but I admit that your explanation is possible too. So if my point of view is isolated, I am willing to withdraw the proposal. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 17:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jan.Kamenicek: That's another nice feature of the CC licenses: you are not allowed to add additional restrictions (see caveat below). "No additional restrictions — You may not apply legal terms or technological measures that legally restrict others from doing anything the license permits." So by having labelled it as CC BY the rest of the text there doesn't matter, it is the well-known terms of the license, and only the terms of the license, that matter.
    The only caveat is that there may in some cases be non-copyright limitations in play. For example publicity rights, privacy, etc. The license doesn't affect these rights since it only addresses copyright. But these are unlikely to be applicable to a work of this kind (I haven't checked specifically, it's just unlikely). --Xover (talk) 18:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Jan Kameníček (talk) 00:27, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Index:Modern French Course Part 1.djvu[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
speedy deleted; under US copyright until 2026

Work is a Canadian edition of a work by - Mathurin Dondo (1884-1968.) Whilst this may be a reprint of a US publication, given where the author was working, I'd like a second view, as 1968+50 would be 2018 which is post URAA date for Canada. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:45, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1926 through 1977 Published in compliance with all US formalities (i.e., notice, renewal) // Published in the US more than 30 days after publication abroad, without compliance with US formalities, and not in the public domain in its home country as of 1 January 1996 => 95 years after publication date — billinghurst sDrewth 08:47, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: — billinghurst sDrewth 08:47, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Index:The Books of Chronicles (1916).djvu[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
kept, public domain in USA

Author is Rev. William Alexander Leslie Elmslie (1885-1965), This is NOT PD in the UK. At the very least the scans cannot be hosted on Commons. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:02, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ShakespeareFan00: Fair dinkum you know that 1916 works in the English language are acceptable here, no matter where or by whom they are published. If you want a work moved from Commons, please just ask at WS:S, this sort of dance is just ridiculous. — billinghurst sDrewth 08:35, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
1916 publication is public domain in US; with death date of author as 1965, so not out of UK copyright until 1936. File moved to enWS, and deleted at Commons. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:42, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: — billinghurst sDrewth 11:42, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science/Volume 270/The Engineering of Consent[edit]

The following discussion is closed:

Copyright for the issue was renewed in 1978 with (Renewal: RE0000001363) --Einstein95 (talk) 12:35, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: --Jusjih (talk) 04:18, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Errors Made in Jutland Battle[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Both works deleted as copyvio.

1932 work for author that died in 1935. Copyright in the US. — billinghurst sDrewth 15:21, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Probably much of the rest of Category:PD-old-70 too? E.g. The Times/1927/Letters to the Editor/The Late Dr. Jackson, author died 1933, so copyright in 1996 → copyright in US until 2023.
This URAA thing is rubbish. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 15:49, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have been cleaning up the others, which is how I tripped over the nominated work. The nominated work was unpublished until 1955 so is an egregious case which cannot fall under PD-old-70 and it doesn't fit under PD-posthumous. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:11, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For The Times/1927/Letters to the Editor/The Late Dr. Jackson, was it not copyright in 1996 in the UK? Huxley died in 1933, so 70 pma is 2003. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 00:28, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 07:06, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jakob Jakobsen portrait[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
The photo was first published in or before 1918, so it is in the public domain due to expiry of a pub. + 95 term. The book was published in the UK and Denmark in 1928 without a copyright notice. Since both are pma. 70 countries and the author died in 1918, the work was in the public domain in its country of origin on the URAA date (1 January 1996 for both). Hence the work failed to gain copyright protection in the US due to failing to comply with the required formalities, and its US copyright was not restored by the URAA.

An Etymological Dictionary of the Norn Language in Shetland Part I Page 10 Jakob Jakobsen Portrait.png

The frontispiece to Jakobsen's Norn dictionary has a portrait of the man himself, but the quality of the NLS's scan is pretty poor when it comes to the images. I have found a much better copy of the exact same portrait here. Would I be allowed to replace this image on Commons with this hi-res version, or would the copyright on this be separate to what's in the book scans? — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 19:50, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Because one of the authors died in 1961, this photograph cannot be uploaded to Commons, regardless of whether you take the copy from the frontispiece to the book or from the digital collection. However, if the photograph were first published more than 95 years ago (anywhere, not necessarily in the dictionary), you can upload it here, to the English Wikisource, as we follow only US copyright laws, according to which material published more than 95 years ago is in the public domain.

However, there might also be a problem with the dictionary as such. You have uploaded it to Commons, stating that it was released under cc-by-4.0 license. This license is usually used only when the author of the work released it under such conditions, which does not seem to be the case. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:16, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have just had a closer look at the book. The author Jakob Jakobsen died in 1918, but the English edition was published for the first time in 1928, and so I am afraid that it is not going to enter the public domain in the United States until 2024 :-( --Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:27, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Jan.Kamenicek I had this same discussion previously on my talk page - the reason I placed the work under CC-BY-4.0 is because the National Library of Scotland released their scans under this license (see here). I am not aware of the circumstances under which this has been allowed to take place, but presumably a national institution such as themselves would have done the due diligence to have released it with the correct permissions.
Assuming that it is indeed released under CC-BY-4.0, does that change anything relating to this image?— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 23:27, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would say the photograph is a simple photo and only covered by the shorter term in Danish copyright. commons:Template:PD-Denmark50 would apply, and that one of the mentioned photographers died in 1961 is not necessarily a problem with regards to uploading to commons. This version is attributed to two different photographers, the previous owners of the same photography company. But I am also concerned about the copyright status of the book in the USA. I suspect the National Library of Scotland only checked the copyright status in the UK, ignoring the status in USA, and that the only thing they have released is their own rights to the scanning process (which would usually be ignored on commons anyway). (A quick side note on the text at the bottom of the frontispiece: In "Pacht & Crone's Eftf.", Eftf. is short for Efterfølgere = successors so that last letter is unlikely to be an A.) Peter Alberti (talk) 11:25, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I just stumbled on a publication of the photo in a 1918 newspaper. So the portrait is not a problem. You can use commons:Template:PD-Denmark50 and commons:Template:PD-old-auto-expired on commons, regardless of which photographer is the right one. Peter Alberti (talk) 13:35, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Peter Alberti: Thanks for finding another version – that appears to be more closely edited to the version in the book. And thanks for the advice, I'll put both up on Commons seeing as it was published in 1918 (or possibly earlier).
As for the dictionary itself, I have contacted the National Library of Scotland to confirm the licence on it, and I'll share the response I get. I hope this is not a mistake as I have probably poured several hundred hours into the transcription so far. Here's hoping.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 15:13, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have a reply from NLS:
"The CC BY 4.0 licence that you're seeing was applied by the Library in relation to the digital images created by the Library, rather than in respect of the 'underlying' work (which, in this case, is the writing by Jakobsen...). There is some debate in the UK as to whether 'faithful' digitisations like these are protected by copyright. The Library's position on this matter has evolved over recent years and during this time we have applied increasingly open licences to our digitised images. However, we are aware that this approach still does not provide the clearest and most accurate information, namely because it does not communicate the copyright status of the 'underlying' work. Therefore, we are currently working to update our rights statements, to provide a more accurate portrayal of the copyright status of the work itself, rather than our digital images. This process will take us some time to complete, as the current CC BY 4.0 licence has been applied to virtually all of our digital images. Therefore, we are working through our digitised collections to identify the correct rights statement to apply to different works. Over time, we will update the rights information displayed in our Digital Gallery, for example from changing 'CC BY 4.0' to 'Public Domain', in cases where we know the underlying work is out of copyright.
In terms of your immediate use of this material, I have not personally investigated the copyright status of this work. However, based on the information you have provided regarding authorship and translation, it sounds like the writing will be in the public domain (out of copyright) in the UK, where copyright in a published written normally survives for 70 years after the death of the last living author of a work. The CC BY 4.0 licence relates only to the digital image, so if you are not re-using the image, you do not need to take it into account (I see you note that you're making a transcription). Even if you do wish to re-use/re-publish the images, you are very free to do so - under the CC BY 4.0 licence you can effectively do anything you wish with the images, as long as you cite the licence and attribute the source (the Library, in this case). Precise details of the licence are available at
You are welcome to share this response with other users of Wikisource.
With kind regards,
Fredric Saunderson
Rights and Information Manager
National Library of Scotland"
I can't help but feel this CC license applied only to the images, but not the work itself, seems pretty disingenuous to me. How is it possible to share the images without sharing the work itself? The notice next to the download links on their website says "Unless otherwise stated, these images and transcriptions may be used under the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International Licence". How is any reasonable person with good intent such as myself meant to know that that only refers to the images of the pages, and not the work itself? This notice is unreasonably unclear.
Anyway, I suppose my hundreds of hours of work here so far are now in jeopardy because of this. I hope you can understand I'd like to exhaust any option that may allow my work to stay up. Would the work be eligible under Template:PD-1996? It was first published (in English) in London, as far as I am aware the work has never been published in the US (only in London and Lerwick in the UK), it was first published in 1928/1932, and if you go by Jakob Jakobsen's death in 1918, that would have put it in the public domain in the home country (the UK) in 1988, before the URAA date. Would this be deemed acceptable? Apologies if I have any of this wrong, I'm trying to learn these copyright rules as I go.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 21:30, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Do not apologize for anything, copyright laws are really confusing for most people, myself included. As far as I understand it, Jakobsen was the author of the English text, and so (based on the date of his death) PD-1996 seems OK to me. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:45, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Jan.Kamenicek: I'm glad to hear it's not just me struggling with this sort of thing! I have replaced the copyright template with Template:PD-1996 for now. If there's any change in opinion it can be swapped out again, hopefully without the removal of my work so far. Thanks to you both for your advice.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 22:41, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 07:24, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Landmark Education suffers humiliating legal defeat in New Jersey Federal Court[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
All 20 pages covered only by this OTRS ticket, along with their associated talk pages, have been deleted. Since the author page (Author:Rick Alan Ross) was then empty of compatibly licensed content, it was also deleted. If compatibly licensed content from that author surfaces it can be undeleted.

My attention was drawn to this page due to an IP removing text and changing a couple of words. On digging into the linked website I find the statement: “Unless otherwise noted, all material on this site is Copyright © Rick Ross.” This makes the page a copyvio. However, as the page has been here for seven years (tomorrow), I thought it best to have a discussion rather than a speedy deletion. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 06:22, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can we verify OTRS ticket#2014012710014942? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 06:37, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @Inductiveload, I’m Martin, an OTRS volunteer, and I was asked by @Jan.Kamenicek, an English Wikisource administrator, to validate the OTRS ticket in question.
Ticket#2014012710014942 is a forwarded permission, ie. it is an email sent by a Wikimedian, forwarding a release that came into their own mailbox. The forwarded conversation contains only the release, and there is no prior conversation with the copyright holder.
Forwarded permissions are generally hard to validate, because they do not have any technical information attached that could be used to confirm the authenticity of the release. I personally would not accept that permission were I the handling agent, and I do not recommend to rely on them when in doubt, especially since the Wikimedian who forwarded the release is no longer in good standing.
I hope this helps. Best, Martin Urbanec (talk) 13:04, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Symbol delete vote.svg Delete Honestly, I quite wonder why the contributor bothered with obtaining permission for this particular article which is written very one-sidedly as a part of some dispute between two obscure educational institutions, and adding this text to Wikisource seems to me like somebody wanted to make us a part of one of the sides of the dispute. If it were something more important or interesting and an OTRS volunteer were not able to confirm the authenticity of the permission, I would try to contact the copyright holder and ask him for the confirmation again. But this text does not seem worth the exertion, it is on the very verge of being elligible according to WWI, and so when I sum everything up, I agree with the deletion. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 15:34, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: The page creator, User:Cirt, has been indefbanned on Wikipedia for sockpuppetry. They have been dormant on this project since 2016. I have taken the liberty of removing all of their long-out of date administrator userboxes from their user page, as they are no longer an admin on any project. BD2412 T 21:32, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Symbol delete vote.svg Delete In light of Martin's information, and based on my own experience investigating misrepresentations by contributors about such things, we should definitely not accept this. --Xover (talk) 17:30, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment How many other works by this Author do we suspect may fall under the same issues? --EncycloPetey (talk) 18:10, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following pages…

Deleted pages

…were all affected by the same OTRS ticked and have been deleted. --Xover (talk) 07:55, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 08:01, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mind, Character and Personality (1977)[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
No plausible argument for compatible licensing found.

The following discussion is being made in response to a DMCA takedown of this work by the Wikimedia Foundation. In this post, I intend to dive into what I know about the work, and I want to discuss the issue of whether or not this is copyrighted. I want to discuss the original edition from 1977 only and not any subsequent editions that might have followed thereafter.

...because I have found quite a few versions available online that have 2010s copyright dates. Any content that is original to those versions will definitely still be under copyright.

Now would be a good time to note that this book came in two volumes, so we'd have to conclusively prove that both of them failed to comply with required formalities in 1977 (not containing a notice), or else the whole game is over.

Copyright Office record

I am not finding any evidence of a record of this book at the Copyright Office. The Copyright Office should have accepted a record of this book had it had a valid copyright notice, and would have (presumably) rejected it if it didn't. However, the fact that there is no apparent record doesn't necessarily mean the original didn't have a copyright notice; I say it just increases the likelihood of that being the case.

Copyright notice?

As the book was first published in 1977, if the original version contained no copyright notice, then it can probably be assumed to be in the public domain.

I can't find any scans online of anything that is even a candidate of being the 1977 original (all the PDFs I found are of 2010s editions of the book). However, I have found some places where a few hardcover copies are being sold online, on Amazon and eBay (look yourselves, I can't link it), and some of those may be originals, but I can't be certain. So someone will have to 1.) Buy both 2 volumes of the book and 2.) Verify that it really doesn't contain a copyright notice. Any candidates for this job? If it doesn't (and we have confirmed beyond reasonable doubt that this version really is the 1977 original) ​then we can move onto the next section.

Possibility of being a derivative work

The maybe toughest aspect of all of this is that, especially since we got a DMCA, we will probably want to check just to make absolutely sure that the original content of Mind, Character and Personality didn't derive from some other work, that it doesn't contain images from other works that are still copyrighted, or storyline elements/long passages for example.

So, if the original is in the public domain

...then that doesn't necessarily mean that their DMCA was unwarranted; like User:Languageseeker pointed out in the Scriptorium, the non-scanned-back Wikisource transcription for this work was probably copied from one of the 2010s PDFs I found which are later editions, which could have contained 2010s content that would inherently be copyrighted regardless of notice. So if we do determine this is in the public domain, we should scan the original version, upload it to Wikimedia Commons, and produce a scan-backed transcription of the work. As I'm interested in doing transcriptions of more modern works, 1977 included, if it can be proven that this is in the public domain I'd be happy to transcribe it. But if it isn't, I say it should certainly be deleted, until the year 2073 comes around.

Pinging users in previous discussion: @JSutherland (WMF), @Jan.Kamenicek, @Prosfilaes, @Languageseeker: As mentioned by the WMF member, as IANAL, someone legally qualified may want to get involved with this because of the severity of a DMCA notice being involved here. PseudoSkull (talk) 01:07, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible that the 1977 work is in the public domain. If you do verify that, I'd be willing to help check if it is distinct from the uploaded text. I'm personally completely apathetic towards the work, though, and see no need to put much work myself into it.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I hope that WMF legal department had already checked the copyright status of the work including the possibility of missing/present copyright notice before they deleted it here. What I am disappointed by is that they did not tell us which steps to verify the status of the work they made exactly and with what result: they simply appeared here like deus ex machina and deleted it as if we were not able to solve copyvios when we get proper information.
As for the effort to check the copyright notice: it is imo not necessary to buy the book, it should be enough to write to a library where they have a copy and ask them about it. However, the deleted work was not scan-backed and without the scans I am not sure if it is worth that effort. I was not protesting against the deletion as such, I was protesting against the way their employee treated us. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 08:09, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Jan.Kamenicek: The WMF is here acting exactly in compliance with the DMCA: in exchange for giving the site owner some indemnity (the "Safe Harbour" provisions) for what users upload, the law requires them to honour takedown requests made in the requisite fashion within a given timeframe. WMF Legal assesses such requests to make sure they are plausible, but the law effectively requires them to act on any properly formed takedown request. (The WMF also strongly recommends copyright owners use the community processes rather then send DMCA takedown requests, but that's up to the copyright owners) That the WMF steps in an deletes files or pages on the projects is surprising only in the sense that it has happened extremely rarely on enWS. On enWP and Commons, WMF Office actions are a well-known quantity and in the main uncontroversial. That we have seen so few here on enWS (I can't recall any previous instances) can probably be attributed to a combination of our relative obscurity and what is evidently a reasonably efficient community self-policing of copyright.
In other words, I understand that it is upsetting when apparently the WMF swoops in out of nowhere and completely sets aside the community's governance. But their ability to do so is absolutely necessary and well-known (just rare on enWS), and the actions they took in this case is mandated by the law in the jurisdiction in which they are incorporated. I can't fault them for anything in this particular instance. --Xover (talk) 15:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, this is basically the LDS church having no chill (as the kids these days say) and reaching for the DMCA nuclear option as a first resort. Once the DMCA comes out, there's nothing one can do without a formal counter-claim (which is made, essentially, on pain of perjury, so it something you do right).
Ironically, had the LDS asked here on the 17th Feb, rather than going via the legal route, this would have probably been deleted weeks ago due to a de facto presumption of copyright for a work from 1977. Could have saved them a lawyer's time and gotten a quicker reaction! Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 16:32, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment @PseudoSkull: Is there any reason to assume this work is not in copyright? There are only very specific (narrow) circumstances where a 1977 work is not protected by copyright, which only come into play for a small fraction of published works (publishers big and small have religiously added copyright statements, whether required or not, for well over a century). Absent specific reason to believe differently, the reasonable presumption is that such works are protected by copyright.
    Incidentally, even if your above proposed process was successful we wouldn't be able to host the work once the DMCA is in play (the Office would just delete it again). To get anywhere we'd need to go through the process of filing a DMCA counter-claim first (which is what Joe offered to help us with). --Xover (talk) 16:01, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Xover: You're right; there is no reason to assume it's not in copyright, which is why we shouldn't just undelete it on such a baseless assumption. Unfortunately as you say it most likely is under copyright due to the circumstances you describe. But it's not completely impossible that it didn't fall out of copyright, especially because of the fact that I'm not seeing any record in the Copyright Office of this work at all. Rcrowley7 might have been right in this case, although maybe for the wrong reasons—regardless of if by happenstance they were right or wrong about this one they still probably shouldn't have gone and copypasted from that site every White work in existence, without at least checking the copyright status of each thoroughly. From the looks of it, they may not have even been aware that this work was posthumously published.
I made this discussion mostly because I'm interested to find out whether or not the DMCAer was really right in this case. If they were wrong, it would be interesting to have a work that was previously DMCA'd, but checked out in the end with the party basically proven wrong, hosted on Wikisource. So that's my stake in the whole thing. My suspicion that this actually didn't receive a copyright is very low, but I'd like to be absolutely sure, so that maybe some level of contribution to Wikisource could come from this unfortunate incident. PseudoSkull (talk) 16:16, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I found a college textbook just the other day from 1972 that just said "All rights reserved" but had no formal copyright notice, which would count as an improper notice at the time. So if Mind, Character and Personality just had the copyright symbol with a missing year, or the word "Copyrighted" or the statement "All rights reserved" that would also place that work in the public domain. Forgot to mention that before. PseudoSkull (talk) 16:23, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
hard copy at university of alabama [3] not in library of congress. Slowking4Farmbrough's revenge 09:50, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment we can link to the existing work online—it has been a a well-established practice to link to online works that are legally held. You can go to a hell of lot of work on a matter of principle/umbrage or you can do some productive maintenance and some transcription of works clearly in the public domain. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:39, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment The copyright was helpfully shown by an eBay auction for the 1977 edition. It reads: "Copyright © 1977 by the Ellen G. White Publications". Since this counts as a copyright notice, this discussion could probably be safely closed. -Einstein95 (talk) 12:29, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 08:25, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Works by Ellen G. White[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
All listed works deleted as being of unknown provenance and dubious copyright status; but if someone comes up with a scan with a plausible claim of compatible licensing there are at least several of these works that could conceivably be hosted.

In light of the DMCA takedown of Mind, Character and Personality discussed above, I took a quick peek at the other works listed on her author page.

In other words, barring two incomplete texts and one uploaded by a different user, all of these are cut&paste jobs from the Ellen G. White trustees' website or ebooks by the same user. Most of the text is probably public domain due to being first published in White's lifetime, but since they are clearly cut&paste from modern editions we have no guarantees about what copyrightable changes may have been made by the trustees'. The modern forewords are clearly copyvios, but the rest of the text is just "dubious provenance".

So what we have to do (and which I'll start on as speedies pretty soon) is delete the modern forewords. I am also inclined to just nuke all of them to get a clean slate, with no prejudice to recreating them iff proofread from a scan of a clearly public domain edition (pre-1925). --Xover (talk) 17:46, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nuke it from orbit. We don’t need to deal with DMCAs. Languageseeker (talk) 19:18, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all content, including the forewords. All of this is not scan-backed anyway, and our works that lack scans are a problem at this site anyway, an unholy mess from past technological limitations that we've been spending years cleaning up. I may invest time myself into this particular author, since we lack genuine content from her. (I'll think about it.) PseudoSkull (talk) 20:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
yeah, if we had Early Works , with a scan from library of congress, i might keep that. might want to revisit, whenever someone gets scans of first editions with copyright page. (it is not an unholy mess, merely a large backlog) Slowking4Farmbrough's revenge 10:04, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Symbol delete vote.svg Delete Modern forewords definitely have to go. At the same time the presence of modern forewords suggests that also the text of the works was copied from modern editions and we do not know, how much they were edited, and so I have nothing against deletion of all the works. Cut-and-pasting does not add any value, such contributions are just next to useless. Besides, I like non-scan backed works less and less, because without scans it is very difficult and often impossible to check various changes that some contributors (especially novice contributors and IP addresses) make to them, claiming them to be justified corrections of mistakes and typos. So the fewer non-scan backed works we keep, the better. Absence of the work here may as a result induce somebody to add a scan backed transcription. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 17:36, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 10:41, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Our current Gutenberg-sourced version of Winesburg, Ohio[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as modern(-ish) edition. Original scan-backed edition would be most welcome.

User:Quadell pointed out on Talk:Winesburg, Ohio in 2008:

I'm a bit concerned about this Gutenberg edition, to tell the truth. The original edition was published in 1919, and is public domain; but the introduction by Irving Howe says that he first read it when he was 15 or 16. Howe was born in 1920, so he must have written this introduction after 1935--probably 1950 or so. I can't find any solid information about which edition first had Howe's introduction, but the introduction is quite possibly still under copyright.

I did a bit more research on where this particular version came from, and unfortunately, according to Irving Howe's Wikipedia article, the source of this version appears to be "Sherwood Anderson's Winesburg, Ohio. Washington, D.C.: Voice of America, 1964. American Novel Series #14". As this was presumably published in 1964 (at earliest), the original copy of this version would have to have lacked a copyright notice for the introduction to be considered public-domain (I consider this possibility very unlikely).

Furthermore, this isn't the original version anyway. It should be moved to Winesburg, Ohio (1964) very soon. If any evidence can be given here that this introduction is in the public domain then I say a full scan of this version should then be provided and that a proper transcription project of this version should be started. Otherwise, I think this full thing should be deleted. Either way, we need to make way for other versions of Winesburg, Ohio including the 1919 original, which I myself will be doing very soon (I'm on Windy McPherson's Son now). PseudoSkull (talk) 15:46, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(I would personally prefer that non-scan-backed versions just be deleted outright for that reason alone, but the community doesn't appear to be on my side on that point.) PseudoSkull (talk) 15:51, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Billinghurst: Can we delete this now as a probable copyright violation? At the very least, it ought to be moved to Winesburg, Ohio (1964) if the evidence isn't compelling enough for you. I estimate ~22 days from tomorrow I will get to work to transcribe the original of this work. PseudoSkull (talk) 05:16, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 10:45, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1933 unregistered dual US/UK published work.[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Work is for copyright purposes a US work and was published without a copyright notice, and with no evidence of renewal.

I'm looking at one of the Loeb Classical Library volumes from 1933: L272:

This has a publisher in the UK and one in the US, and does not appear to have been registered in the US in 1933 (though this particular scan is of a UK printing). William Henry Samuel Jones died in 1963, so pma 70 is a long way off yet, and obviously 1996 was still well in copyright in the UK.

Can someone remind this dope of the rule here? URAA restoration assumed → no go, or dual publishing + no reg → PD (and if so, Commons-friendly?)? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 19:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Inductiveload: In terms of copyright, it is clearly in copyright in the UK (as you say). In the US, copyright status depends on whether it contained a copyright notice etc.. And, sadly, we cannot trust the Digital Library of India for that: I've found multiple instances where their scans have been actively modified to either leave out a copyright notice, insert a colophon from a different book to make it look like it's PD, and even outright faking the year of publication in an existing colophon.
In terms of the URAA, if a foreign work was in copyright in the source country on that country's URAA date (usually, but not always, 1996) then its US copyright was restored to whatever the usual term would have been if it had been a US work (i.e. usually pub.+95 for the stuff we deal with).
However, in terms of Commons policy, the requirement is PD in the US and in the country of origin. Works that were simultaneously (within 30 days) published in a foreign country and the US, however, are explicitly not eligible for URAA restoration. So for works that are truly simultaneously published in the US Commons policy treats them as US works, and you can determine US copyright status in the usual way.
So, for this particular work, you need to find out first publication date; where that first publication occurred; and, if simultaneously published, whether the version published in the US contained a notice. Don't trust the DLI scan for anything related to copyright; and publication details are best researched in newspapers (ads by publishers, "books received" by newspapers, or actual reviews). Xover (talk) 06:25, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Xover: Darn, that's what I was afraid of. So a quick prod turns up:
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 11:08, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Works of ICJ[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
No action necessary.

Hello! May I ask if judgments, orders, etc, of the International Court of Justice are copyrighted (and can be hosted here)? Does Template:PD-UN applies to those works? Thanks a lot! --Miwako Sato (talk) 00:56, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The 'default' for works of the United Nations is that they are copyrighted, the only exceptions are documents covered by Administrative_Instruction_ST/AI/189/Add.9/Rev.2 ..... generally, that means that only works that were released under a "UN document symbol" (such as ST/AI/189/Add.9/Rev.2), are specifically PR material, or are actual 'treaties' can be automatically assumed to be PD. Any document that is 'offered for sale' by the UN is not PD, which covers works like the Handbook of the court.
I would expect that the actual judgements, advisory opinions, and orders of the court itself, are not copyrighted... I can find nothing to specifically indicate they are, and while they don't have a 'formal' document symbol, they don't have a copyright notice, and are "written material issued simultaneously or sequentially in the form of documents and publications".... they all have a "General List No." in the header.
I think the most definitive answers come from Part II.A.7., the "general rule", and in Part III of the Admin Instruction, on procedures, that clearly implies that any copyrighted UN document will have a copyright notice, and possibly a sales number. The procedure seems to be that the Publication Board has to specifically approve the copyright registration of individual works. Jarnsax (talk) 17:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Digging around a bit more, it appears they handle the matter the same as other UN bodies, that the working documents themselves (judgements etc) are released to the PD as they are issued, then printed annually in a copyrighted yearbook (which presumably contains other material as well). Jarnsax (talk) 17:54, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking of 'treaties', please note that more recently published volumes of the United Nations Treaty Series, i.e. Vol 1242 in 1994 and all in 1995, are copyrighted with all rights reserved, so transcribing the whole volumes is limited to earlier ones not claimed to be copyrighted. Later volumes cannot be fully transcribed here, so we may only transcribe underlying texts of the treaties not being copyrighted. See also c:Commons:Copyright rules by territory/United Nations#General rules--Jusjih (talk) 04:13, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 11:10, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How Today’s College Students Use Wikipedia for Course–related Research[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as incompatibly licensed.

This is licensed under a CC-BY-NC-SA-3.0 license, as can be seen in the transcribed text under the "Creative Commons License" section and at This isn't considered a free license because it prohibits commercial use and isn't a permissible license in Help:Licensing compatibility as it does not meet the definition of free content in Wikisource:Copyright policy. The transcribed text has a CC-BY-SA-3.0 license template at the bottom, but this is evidently incorrect. Dylsss (talk) 22:46, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol delete vote.svg Delete. I also want to note that "Course-related" in the title uses an en dash instead of a hyphen. This is counterintuitive (because en dashes are hard to input) and also grammatically incorrect. So even if this is kept which I doubt, the page should be renamed with a hyphen. PseudoSkull (talk) 23:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think we've standardized on the ASCII hyphen-dash in title names, though the Unicode hyphen would be more correct here.--Prosfilaes (talk) 05:19, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 11:18, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Left-Wing Communism: an Infantile Disorder[edit]

The following discussion is closed:

This appears to be a copy from which took their copy from Volume 31 of the Collected Works of Lenin published in 1966 in the Soviet Union by Progress Publishers [[4]] so the translation is still copyrighted as it was published abroad and then restored under URAA... MarkLSteadman (talk) 14:49, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 11:19, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Estate of Marriage[edit]

The following discussion is closed:

I saw this was pending for 9 months, Walter Brandt died in 1958, the work seems to have been published in 1962 in the US with renewal [[5]]. MarkLSteadman (talk) 15:37, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Vkem: Do you have any comment about this nomination as copyright violation? — billinghurst sDrewth 16:16, 4 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 11:22, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Khōn[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted per nom.

I propose the deletion of this work, as it is apparently a copyright violation.

The author, Dhanit Yupho (Thai Wikipedia article), died in 2004. It is still not over 50 years after the author's death according to the Thai copyright law.

And the tagged license, Template:PD-TH-exempt, does not apply at all, because this work is not a constitution, legislation, judicial decision, etc.

--Miwako Sato (talk) 03:56, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 11:26, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ponniyin Selvan[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted per nom. Work is a modern translation by a still-living author, and contributor has not responded to requests for a rationale.

Putting this here whilst I try to get some extra information from the contributor. At first look, this would appear to be a modern translation of the state dwork, and I have no confidence that the translation is in the public domain and able to be reproduced. This article would indicate that the translator is living. — billinghurst sDrewth 16:13, 4 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 11:30, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Old Mrs Chundle (Hardy)[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted per nom.

Moved from WS:PD

Header says "A short story written by Thomas Hardy about 1888-1890 was never printed at his lifetime and was first published in Ladies Home Journal February 1929." As it was published prior to 2003 in a magazine from 1929 that was renewed it is still under copyright: see c:Template:PD-US-unpublished. The magazine issue would be "February 1929 (v. 46 no. 2), © January 31, 1929", source: Evidence of renewal: PseudoSkull (talk) 13:39, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol delete vote.svg Delete (until end of 2024). Publication after death does annoying things to copyright terms. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 16:07, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 11:32, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Vincent Van Gogh[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted per nom.

French original by Octave Mirbeau (1848–1917) is PD, but I have been unable to track down any source for the English-language translation. Xover (talk) 16:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 11:36, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Scan localization requests[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
All requested scans copied locally.

@Languageseeker: You uploaded all but one of the below works. Please pay attention to copyright status before uploading: all four of these works are wholly or partially by UK authors with no evidence of first or concurrent publication in the US. This means they are still in copyright in the UK, even if their US copyright has expired. Since Commons requires uploads to be in the public domain in both the US and the country of origin, these will be deleted there eventually. Works that comply with the enWS copyright policy but not the Commons policy should be uploaded locally.
@ShakespeareFan00: There's no special magic for moving files from Commons to here: just download the file from Commons, upload it here, add the description page from Commons, tidy up any template differences, and add {{do not move to Commons}}. --Xover (talk) 13:10, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am UK based, so me uploading them locally would potentially be a copyright issue for me. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:51, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. If outside the USA, better ask here first.--Jusjih (talk) 04:17, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Index:One Increasing Purpose.pdf

Work is by Arthur Stuart-Menteth Hutchinson (1879–1971). It is not PD-UK, and so the scans should be locally hosted. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:50, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes check.svg Done Xover (talk) 10:24, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Index:Rebels and reformers (1919).djvu

Contains contributions from Dorothea Ponsonby (1876–1963) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:18, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes check.svg Done Xover (talk) 10:24, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Index:The war history of the 1st-4th Battalion, the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, now the Loyal Regiment (North Lancashire), 1914-1918 (IA warhistoryof1st400grea).pdf

Localisation requested as specfic UK authors could not be identified on a quick scan of the works initial pages. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:57, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes check.svg Done Xover (talk) 10:24, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Index:The way of Martha and the way of Mary (1915).djvu

Work by British Author - Stephen Graham (1884–1975) , so not PD-UK. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:59, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes check.svg Done Xover (talk) 10:24, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Index:When we were very young.pdf

London publication, Author Alan Alexander Milne (1882–1956) - Not PD-UK ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:34, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes check.svg Done Xover (talk) 10:24, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Index:The ABC of Relativity.djvu

Index:Pyrotechnics the history and art of firework making (1922).djvu

Index:Machine-gun tactics (IA machineguntactic00appl).pdf

  • Work by british authour who died in 1956 - Not PD-UK and this appears to be a London published edition ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:45, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes check.svg Done Xover (talk) 10:25, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: --Xover (talk) 14:42, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Index:The principle of relativity (1920).djvu[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Filer has been migrated locally and the file on Commons tagged for speedy deletion. An existing copy of this file and its associated index have been merged with this one.

The Historical introduction is by w:Prasanta Chandra Mahalanobis (1893 – 1972) meaning this is NOT PD in India.

One of the translators is listed as Author:Satyendra Nath Bose (1894–1974) also not PD-India

At the very least the scans should be localised.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:29, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 17:08, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gates of Empire[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Kept as {{PD-US-no-renewal}}.

"Gates of Empire", aka. "The Road of the Mountain Lion", is a short story by Robert Ervin Howard (1906–1936) first published in Golden Fleece in January 1939. The issue or story may or may not have had a copyright notice, but searching Stanford I've been unable to find a renewal for the story, under either title, or for the magazine. In other words, it seems likely that this is {{PD-US-no-notice}}{{PD-US-no-renewal}}, but I would like to have the community's take. Xover (talk) 19:18, 12 July 2021 (UTC) [edited to correct template link: --Xover (talk) 20:37, 12 July 2021 (UTC)][reply]

  • I also can't find any renewals for Golden Fleece from 1966 or 1967. Agree that Stanford seems to show no relevant works renewals (for "Mountain Lion" or "Robert Howard"). So I think it's safe. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 19:44, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, there was a reprint of works from the Golden Fleece available on that claims it's in the PD.--Prosfilaes (talk) 18:22, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 17:51, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Georgia versus Russia (Hague court application, 2008)[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

A 2008 submission to the w:International Court of Justice from Georgia. Georgian copyright law is more restrictive than {{PD-USGov}} and only exempts "official documents (laws, court decisions, other administrative and normative texts), as well as their official translations;". A submission to the court does not obviously fall within any of those example categories. In the US, the works of foreign governments are copyrightable unless they fall under {{PD-EdictGov}}, but a submission to a supranational court does not seem to fit that definition either. My initial assessment is therefore that this is a copyvio. Xover (talk) 19:45, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • While an interesting text, it does appear to fall outside of both Georgian and U.S. government-copyright laws. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 17:18, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 17:53, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ISN 043 -- statement of 2006/10/23[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

Samir Naji's written statement to the Guantanamo Administrative Review Board dated 23 October 2006. This was previously possible to host due to a lack of copyright relations between the US and Afghanistan, but since Afghanistan's WTO membership in 2016 and accession to the Berne convention in 2018 this is no longer true. Naji's statement is subject to a pma. 50 copyright term in Afghanistan, and through the URAA a pma. 70 term in the US, meaning this will be in copyright in the US until at least 2077 or thereabouts. @Geo Swan: pinging by request. Xover (talk) 12:36, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 17:55, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Index:The Mesnevī (Volume 2).pdf[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Work is in US copyright until the end of this year due to URAA-restoration of a now-expired UK copyright term. Since there are only a few months left and the work is not yet transcluded it is being left undeleted (rather than deleting multiple subpages and then undeleting them a few months later), but no further transcription should take place until after 1 January 2022 (doing so would put the contributor in legal jeopardy). Note that this course of action is an expedient one that is in conflict with our policy, and as such can be challenged or overruled at any time. It does not set any kind of precedent for handling of future cases.

A Monthly Challenge work flagged up on the MC discussion page. This volume was published in 1926 (though v1 was published in 1925), in the UK, by an author who died in 1945.

I think that makes it URAA-restored and it's (very annoyingly) copyrighted in the US until next year (despite having being PD in the UK for 6 years, jsut to rub it in >_<)? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 18:05, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • The work is not transcluded, so it's not really exposed to the public; and it'll enter the public domain in ~5 months. Deleting the multiple Page:-pages now and undeleting them in 5 months is a bit more hassle than I want for a formality. Anyone object to just leaving the fragments sitting there until new years? We shouldn't transcribe more of it yet, and it shouldn't be linked anywhere prominent, but I don't see much use in the delete/undelete dance for this one. --Xover (talk) 11:15, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 07:31, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Ghost of Camp Colorado[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Kept as {{PD-US-no-renewal}}.

"The Ghost of Camp Colorado" is a short story by Robert Ervin Howard (1906–1936) apparently first published in The Texaco Star, an employee magazine published by Texaco's marketing department, in April 1931. Earlier issues of this magazine were published with a copyright notice (I haven't found a scan of this one), but I haven't found any renewals for this magazine (Texaco did renew other publications in which they had a commercial interest). As such it is probably {{PD-US-no-renewal}}.

An additional complication is that our text was apparently taken from The End of the Trail: Western Stories (2005), a modern collection with unknown changes. In other words, it is possible our text is a derivative work whose copyright we'd then be violating. It doesn't appear particularly likely, but it is possible, so it'll depend on your standard of evidence for copyright issues… Xover (talk) 20:35, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have found no renewal of either this work or of relevant issues of Texaco Star. Ideally, this work should be backed to a scan of that magazine, but failing that, I do not think the collection’s changes warrant copyright. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 17:18, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 09:00, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Letters (Wharton)[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Unsourced and conflated text deleted, replaced with proofread and scan-backed texts of the individual pieces.

Apparently a short story by Edith Wharton (1862–1937), and almost certainly first published in the US, so there are numerous ways this could be public domain now. But I'm not having much luck finding out where and when that first publication took place, and so we can't really tell what side of the line this falls on. I would be happy if someone could dig up the details so we could know for sure though. Xover (talk) 13:24, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Harper's monthly magazine v.108 Dec. 1903-May 1904, page 781 (HathiTrust link) has an edition of the first half of this, called "The Letter", and we're missing the first line of that edition. I suspect a similar search for text from the second half in HathiTrust would turn the other half. It's still problematic, as it looks like another edition.--Prosfilaes (talk) 18:20, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, looking at this…
The text seems to be a weird amalgam. "The Letter" seems to be a single work divided into two parts, both published together in Harper's Monthly Magazine Vol. 108, No. 647 for April 1904. The other part seems to be "The Dilettante", published in Harper's Monthly Magazine Vol. 108, No. 643 for December 1903. Our text for both works appears complete, except for missing the first line of "The Letter".
Based on this I think it is reasonable to say that both works were first published more than 95 years ago, and given both magazine and Wharton are American we can simply assume first publication happened in the US.
So, in terms of copyright, what remains is the issue of whether the editions of the texts we have are a later and possibly copyrighted edition. I'm not sure how we would determine that without a word-for-word comparison; and I am not convinced the probability of that being the case is worth the effort of trying to determine it. Xover (talk) 10:40, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And since we happened to have an index for Vol. 108, I have proofread The Letter (Wharton) and The Dilettante from that. If nobody objects I propose we delete The Letters (Wharton) as of unknown provenance and leave the newly proofread ones in its place. Xover (talk) 13:33, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 17:13, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The French Declaration of War against Austria (1792)[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Kept. Source identified, reproofread and replaced, license tags updated.

No source provided, and I have been unable to find one. The original is obviously long out of copyright, but this was also definitely not originally in English. The English translation bears the hallmarks of a modern translation (and it is definitively not a contemporary translation). Xover (talk) 13:45, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I find it, at least, from Readings in European History (1906), pp. 454–455; the translation may well be of an earlier date. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 17:18, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @TE(æ)A,ea.: Ok, I've uploaded Readings in European History Vols. 1 and 2, proofread the relevant pages, and transcluded them over the old text. I've tagged the original as {{PD-old}} and the translation as {{PD/US|1936}}. On p. xxv Robinson gives the source as "Duvergier, Collection complète des lois, decrets, etc. (ed. of 1824), IV, 140 sq.", so I think we can reasonably pin this as Robinson's own translation (well, or possibly his wife's, cf. the preface). Robinson's name appears on several volumes of translations published by Columbia University in the decades leading up to this so it was clearly his area.
    In any case, if you have no objections I'll call this discussion resolved. --Xover (talk) 10:50, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 17:15, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Edmeston Local/Question Over Famous Run Is Finally Solved and The Edmeston Local/Scout's Run to Warn Of Peril To Be Marked[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted. No plausible claim of compatible licensing.

1937 and 1939 articles from The Edmeston Local. They were apparently copied here from a ~2000 book as part of a bigger History of Edmeston project that was subsequently deleted. Someone needs to come up with valid licensing for these since they're way past the 95 year cutoff. Xover (talk) 16:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I can only find the first article here (App. H), but I believe that there needs to be a greater look at the Edmeston Local, as there are several more articles marked as “Doubtful Fidelity.” TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 17:18, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 17:43, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tagore's Letters to M. K. Gandhi[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

Letters written by Rabindranath Tagore (1861–1941) to Gandhi in 1919 and 1932. The letters were not, afaict, published at the time. The first publication I have found is the one given by the cited source, Selected Works of Mahatma Gandhi, Vol. IV in 1968, which includes (as best I can tell) the English translation by Jitendra T. Desai. For unpublished works the term in India is pub. + 60 years (so until 2028), and the translation would be pma. 60 from Desai's date of death (which I've not found but it is definitely even later). Xover (talk) 17:23, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol delete vote.svg Delete Regardless of the original publication, the translator death data sounds like a slam dunk. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 18:05, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 17:54, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Education for Life presentation by His Excellency Mr.Sukavich Rangsitpol[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Speedied as no plausible claim od compatible licensing, and for an author whose works are frequently (re)posted by socks and IPs.

An article written by a Thai person, even though he is a minister of state of Thailand, is not covered by Template:PD-TH-exempt (which only applies to a constitution, law, judicial decision, etc).

The author, Sukavich Rangsitpol, is still alive and does not appear to have released this work into public domain.

No source of this work can be found. Wikisource is the only result returned by Google.

--Miwako Sato (talk) 10:17, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 16:01, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Swift's Epitaph[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

"Swift's Epitaph" is a poem by W. B. Yeats (1865–1939), first published in the collection The Winding Stair and Other Poems (1933).

The UK edition (London: MacMillan) was published on 19 September according to The Observer (and corroborated by multiple reviews in early October).

The US publication, though, is a bit harder to pin down. The first mention of it in a newspaper comes from The Baltimore Sun on 17 September when Collected Poems by Yeats is listed as forthcoming (published in November) and noted as including the content from The Winding Stair and Other Poems. And on 10 December, the Oakland Tribune reviews the Collected Poems noting that The Winding Stair and Other Poems has previously only been available as a limited edition.

The catalog of copyright entries shows a registration for Collected Poems on 14 November, and for The Winding Stair and Other Poems on 25 October. The entry for The Winding Stair is supported by the the one scan I could find of the US edition (New York: MacMillan), which contains a copyright statement and claims to have been "Published October, 1933".

Checking renewals for 1960–1962 (1933 + 28±1) I can find no renewal for the work (and the Stanford DB gives no hits).

Based on this I would say The Winding Stair and Other Poems was first published in the UK on 19 September 1933, and not published in the US within 30 days (registered 25 October 1933). Its country of origin is therefore the UK, where its copyright term ran until the end of 1939 + 70 = 2009. It was thus in copyright in its country of origin on the URAA date (1 January 1996) and subject to a US copyright term running until 1933 + 95 = 2028. Xover (talk) 07:53, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Xover Gotta love the CCE. Collected poems is R280791, and it's CCE listing is here. You probably missed it because the renewal claimant was his widow, w:Georgie Hyde-Lees, so they abbreviated his name in a kinda mangled way. Jarnsax (talk) 05:30, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 06:14, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Summer Morn[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleting "Am-ra the Ta-an" as copyvio, keeping "Summer Morn" as {{PD-US-unpublished}},

The page contains two poems—"Summer Morn" and "Am-ra the Ta-an"—by Robert Ervin Howard (1906–1936).

"Summer Morn" was first published in Kull: Exile of Atlantis (2006). As it was never published before 1 January 2003, the applicable copyright term is pma. 70. Since Howard died in 1936 this duration would have expired after 2006. In other words, it should now be public domain under {{PD-US-unpublished}}.

"Am-ra the Ta-an" was first published in A Rhyme of Salem Town and Other Poems (2002). Having been created before 1978 and being published before 1 January 2003, it is in copyright until the greater duration of pma. 70 and 31 December 2047. In other words, it is in copyright until 2048.

So, bottom line, I propose we remove the latter and revdel the old revisions, and keep the former as {{PD-US-unpublished}}. Xover (talk) 08:52, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 18:02, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Statutory Resolution CM/Res(2007)6[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted. The Council of Europe is an NGO and not covered by {{PD-EdictGov}}.

A 2007 "Statutory Resolution" of the Council of Europe (the other CoE). I'm inclined to just tag this {{PD-EdictGov}} without digging much farther, but I'd like to hear from the community on this. Xover (talk) 08:56, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Xover It looks like the charter for w:Congress of Local and Regional Authorities. The lede for w:Council of Europe, though (3rd para), says they can't make binding law, which fits with the statements at I don't think it's an edict, basically since the author is 'actually' an NGO. Jarnsax (talk) 05:48, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 18:06, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Muhammad's letters[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as possible copyvio (no source) and excerpts of dubious provenance. If readded they should specify proper provenance and demonstrate compatible licensing of the translation.

The following texts, all purporting to be letters written by Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allāh to various Middle-Eastern dignitaries, were added in 2018 by Muhammad Umair Mirza.

None of the texts specify a source, and they were obviously not originally written in English. I'm not sure how I would track down a definitive source for such short texts, and I am disinclined to expend a lot of time on it since in my experience these tend to end up being from one modern website or another with incompatible licensing ( being the usual suspect). Without a source and surrounding context they are also somewhat suspect, so I would suggest we delete these and if readded make sure it is through a suitable scholarly edition or edited collection. Xover (talk) 09:11, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sources of these translations could be found, but it seems tiresome to do so, when so little of there source is known. (The Muqawqis letter has existed since 1907 (with Arabic source here), and so it definitely could be kept; at least, so Muhammad can have one work to his name.) As for the other letters, absent a further search, they should probably be deleted. (It may be noted also, Xover, that the Web-site which held the other works of Mohammed took those (at least the sermon) from a book published in the 1990s; they were not original.) TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:03, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 18:12, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

National Anthem of the Soviet Union[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
All kept and tagged {{PD-EdictGov}} as works for hire of Stalin and the Supreme Soviet.

For all three translations listed there: irrespective of the licensing status of the translation, the Russian original lyrics were written by Sergey Vladimirovich Mikhalkov (1913–2009) and Gabriel El-Registan (1899–1945). Since the USSR successor states ~all have pma. 70 copyright terms, all versions of the original are still in copyright until at least 2080. Xover (talk) 11:59, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. The lyrics were the official anthem, and thus were published in an order declaring them official. This order is an edict of government, and is thus in the public domain in the United States. [An abuse filter has prevented me from providing a hyper-link.] TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:03, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @TE(æ)A,ea.: Thanks for looking into this. Could you email me the link, or otherwise point me in the right direction?
    The issue there is that while EdictGov exempts laws from copyright, the mere inclusion of a previously copyrighted work in a public domain work generally does not automatically invalidate the preexisting copyright. This is similar to the inclusion of copyrighted material in a public record or a work by the US federal government: essentially it is "used by permission" in those cases and does not allow reuse. The usual way national anthems or other national symbols are exempted from copyright, or provided extra protection, is through exemptions or special regulation in the relevant copyright act or an adjacent law (e.g. in NZ the Ka Mate is specially regulated in the Haka Ka Mate Attribution Act 2014). It is highly unusual for a copyrighted work to be included verbatim in a law, so this creates a novel situation and the details will be essential to determining where to fall down on it. Xover (talk) 07:46, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Re: Email—I’ll try sending it to you soon; and if I can’t get it sent then, you’ll have to wait a few days. Re: mere inclusion—this seems to disagree, and I don’t really find anything pushing the other way. In the Ka Mate case, I believe that to be more New Zealand’s way of protecting its Maori heritage, than an attempt to vitiate the copyright of a work in one specific case (especially so, looking at sec. 10 of that act). Publishing a law including a work is different from reprinting something in the Record. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 14:26, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      The model building code case is slightly different, in that the original work there essentially was the law that was adopted and not an independent artistic work. The providers of the model building code also sold the states a license to the work specifically for them to adopt it into a law. The challenge was that the state itself then tried to use copyright to prevent a third party from hosting the text of the law. But, yeah, we're down to splitting pretty fine hairs there.
      The Ka Mate thing isn't a direct equivalent; it's just the example closest to mind of special regulation of national symbols of various kinds. There are lots of jurisdictions that have similar special regulation for flags or traditional folklore or… The point was just that these usually do not themselves include the artistic work regulated, which is making this a lot more complicated. Xover (talk) 14:53, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • For the model code, the license was sold with the (false) assumption that they would retain the copyright to the law after it was sold. I think the case with a national anthem is more obvious, really, as the writer/composer (as the case may be) is giving the anthem to the country, so to speak, and the country makes that gift real with the law declaring the national anthem (which thus includes the music). As for splitting fine hairs, isn’t that what copyright discussions are all about? If only things could be easier. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:02, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        Hmm. Could we argue that this was some kind of work for hire? Truly artistic works usually aren't, but in this case, Mikhalkov and El-Registan were "called to Moscow" by Stalin, instructed in what the lyrics should contain, and completed a first draft overnight. There's no similar story about the 1977 revised version, but if we presume the former version to be a work for hire then revising it would be the same.
        That would eliminate the hairsplitting: it's the government that owns it and they wrote it into a law adopted by the Supreme Soviet, making it clear {{PD-EdictGov}}. Xover (talk) 18:29, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • If this was a work they wrote, and which was then selected, it might not qualify, but this case seems to more clearly fall under work-for-hire (of the government). TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 19:10, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
this page gives us a translation of the relevant portion of Russian law... "state symbols and signs (flags, emblems, orders, banknotes, etc.)" are not subject to copyright. Jarnsax (talk) 06:07, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 13:22, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Russian Federation. Law on Copyright and Neighboring Rights[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Kept as {{PD-EdictGov}}.

A 1993 version of the Russian copyright law. All the sources for the English text found in notes/talk/revision history are non-official sources (i.e. the translation would not meet PD-EdictGov). However, the WTO hosts an English-language version of this here without mentioning a specific third-party translator.

The original Russian law would be clear {{PD-EdictGov}}.

I am inclined to slap a {{PD-EdictGov}} on this and deal with it later if anybody complains. Xover (talk) 13:24, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 13:26, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Resolution of the Information Bureau Concerning the Communist Party of Yugoslavia[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

A resolution from a 1948 meeting of a whole bunch of "Workers Parties" and "Communist Parties" censuring one of their national members.

The "Information Bureau" (aka. Cominform) is a private (political) member organisation. As such, this resolution would be a collective work of the members and copyright held in their various jurisdictions. Since anything copyright in any of these places on 1 January 1996 would be subject to the URAA, a local copyright term would have had to be less than 1996 - 1948 = 48 years for this to have conceivably expired (and even if there was a stray ~25 year term in there somewhere, the rest were almost certainly pma. 50 or more). Xover (talk) 13:57, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yugoslavia's legal successor is Serbia, so we're looking at PMA+70 just there... you'd assume at least one of them was a local, and that brings the at home copyright all the way to at least 2019 or so. Jarnsax (talk) 06:29, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 13:27, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Report of Psychiatric Assessment of José Padilla[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

A report by a psychiatrist hired by the defence attorneys for José Padilla. Copyright belongs to either the psychiatrist or, most likely, the law firm defending Padilla. i.e. it is a public record, but not public domain. Xover (talk) 14:08, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Looks to me like a "work for hire" belonging to the defendant, so copyrighted. Jarnsax (talk) 17:18, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 13:28, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Program for Monetary Reform[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

See w:Chicago plan for context.

This is the 1939 draft that was never published until 2009, and unpublished works with known authors have pma. 70 terms in the US. Since at least one of the authors lived until 1989, this will be in copyright until at least 2060. Xover (talk) 14:36, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Verifying: Earl J. Hamilton, the last of the six listed authors to die, died in 1989. While I have some doubt as to the “publication” of the draft plan, it seems clear that it is now copyrighted. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:03, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 13:30, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Proclamation of Cuban transfer of duties 2006[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Kept as {{PD-EdictGov}}.

A proclamation, drafted by Fidel Castro and subsequently adopted by the National Assembly of People's Power, transferring power from El Comandante to various people (among them Raúl Castro).

Cuban government works are normally in perpetual copyright (ironic, yes), but the way I read this it's a proclamation by the supreme leader and rubberstamped by the competent legislative body, so despite being framed as a statement (it was apparently read out on TV) it looks like {{PD-EdictGov}} applies. Unless someone objects I intend to slap that license tag on it. Xover (talk) 16:26, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 18:46, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Price of Greatness is Responsibility[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Only limited publication happened at the time the speech was performed, meaning first (general) publication for copyright purposes happened at some undetermined point (much) later. That most likely makes it copyright in the US until the general publication date + 95 years.

1943 speech given by Winston Churchill (1874–1965) at Harvard University. At the time, Churchill was Prime Minister of the UK.

The nature of the speech makes it plausible, likely even, that he was here acting in his role as PM. If so, the relevant term to consider is Crown Copyright. Crown Copyright in this instance would run from creation to 50 years, and would have expired in 2015 in the UK; but would have still accrued URAA copyright in the US until 2060.

It is possible that this should be considered to be Churchill acting in a personal capacity. If that is the case the relevant term would be pma. 70, and the term would run until 2035 in the UK and 2060 in the US.

In either case the issue arises of whether the speech constitutes general publication for copyright purposes. Other speeches by Churchill in the US were furnished to the press and reported verbatim nationally (and handed out to the attendees), but this is a somewhat different setting. If this speech was only a "limited publication" to 30 people in the room (or whatever) then the publication for copyright purposes was only much later in a "Letters and Speeches of Winston Churchill"-type book (and the copyright situation would in practice be a no-go for us).

And finally we have the issue of whether the speech of the sitting PM of the UK in a US university should be considered a US work or a UK work. The Berne treaty (which the US is a signatory to) uses terms like "domiciliary of" etc. in relation to the "country of origin". If the country of origin is the UK then this would be restored by the URAA and be in copyright until 1965 + 95 = 2060. If the country of origin is the US then it is very likely either {{PD-US-no-notice}} or {{PD-US-no-renewal}}.

In other words: my head hurts and I need help sorting out all the twisty details here. Xover (talk) 08:56, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Normally, a work published (in this case, a speech publicly delivered) in the United States would be a United States work in Berne’s terms. However, the fact that it is a speech given by the sitting (or former) Prime Minister of the United Kingdom might make the work a UK work by the strong association with a foreign country; the terms aren’t clear (and I don’t remember them at the moment). I would not consider this a speech in his capacity as PM, but I do think his status as PM was a consideration. I’ll look over this more later, but it does seem to fall right on the line. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 14:26, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Cf. (a modern article on the subject) and (a historical publication on and of the speech). It was a public speech to 1300 people, and published contemporaneously in the New York Times (renewed), New York Herald Tribune (renewed), and within 30 days in the Harvard Alumni Magazine linked above (not renewed). For purposes of the URAA and US law, it is clearly a US work. For purposes of the Berne Convention, it's probably a UK work, since the US wasn't a Berne member at the time, but I don't think that's relevant to us. Since it's a speech given at the award of an honorary degree, I don't think it's Crown Copyright, even if it was (according to the article above) tit-for-tat from the President of the US (having been awarded a UK honorary degree) to the Prime Minister of the UK.
Thus to me it comes down to whether the renewals on the periodicals it was reprinted in renew it, given the lack of an individual renewal. To which I'm not clear, and I'm not even sure US law is clear. I think not, since that would renew it in the name of the publisher, and which publisher?--Prosfilaes (talk) 17:58, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not willing to buy that a newspaper reporting the speech, even if they were furnished a written transcript, makes it that newspaper's copyright in terms of the required formalities (it's a "used by permission" kind of situation). The relevant publication is then the public performance of the speech, and I am going to assume that 1300 people constitutes general publication.
So is a copyright notice required, under US law, for even works and forms of publication that make that very awkward? I think I've seen reference to case law that made that requirement active for something like a statue or painting installed in a public place. But that seems completely non-intuitive and, frankly, dumb. Xover (talk) 18:57, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would not be particularly awkward, because the work could be formally registered with the copyright office, which would cause a notice of the work to be published in CCE. I haven’t checked, but I would assume that there is no such registration. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 19:10, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
See w:Estate of Martin Luther King, Jr., Inc. v. CBS, Inc. It doesn't look like the speech was publication, and possibly even the printings weren't publication. However, I'd still say if he gave a copy of the speech to a publisher and they published it in full, even as news, that's publication. I'd lean towards saying they were published in 1943 and renewed with the New York Times, and get 95 years of copyright from there, being free in 2039.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:09, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Having now trawled through King v. CBS I am actually going to disagree with your conclusion: that case is pretty clear that giving the text to the press is limited publication, and that the number of people present at the performance of the speech is immaterial to the issue of limited or general publication. In order for general publication of this speech to have occurred Churchill (or an authorised agent) would have had to make the text of the speech available for sale in such a way that anyone could have ordered or bought a copy. That did not happen at the time, which means general publication for copyright purposes did not happen until (probably much) later.
But, in any case, let's call your conclusion the "best case scenario": we can't keep it either way. Xover (talk) 08:10, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not so sure that a renewal for the Times would have covered the speech printed (rather than strictly “published”) in it; the confusion from the other printing may be alleviated by considering the speech an independent work delivered publicly and then printed, with the copyright subsisting in the printed version, but the copyright being vested in Churchill, rather than the Times, and thus not covered by a general renewal of Times content. However, I am not sure of this particular. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 12:25, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There have been a number of discussions on the acceptability of hosting public speeches made since 1923 in view of copyright issues. The result of these decisions was that we are able to host such speeches only when they are political speeches by a political figure, as we take the view these are not protected by copyright. Our discussions can be read at Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2006-03#Fair use & Speeches & Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2006-05#Fair use and speeches.

Beleg Tâl (talk) 02:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed increasingly twisty; but those 2006 discussions are mostly nonsense. They rely on some kind of circular reasoning around "PD-Manifesto" and "politicians (and serial killers) want their speeches/manifestos known to the world". That's not how copyright works in general, and there is no copyright exemption for "political speeches by a political figure". Xover (talk) 08:14, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 18:52, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note that I'm willing to reopen this discussion in 2038, but I don't think it's clear for us until then.--Prosfilaes (talk) 16:32, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]


The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

The lyrics to a Canadian military march, written by Thomas Fraser Gelley (d. 1968) and first published in 1941 (Chabot composed the music).

The copyright term in Canada at the time was pma. 50, meaning its Canadian copyright expired after 1968 + 50 = 2018. It was however still in copyright in Canada on the URAA date (1 January 1996), meaning its US copyright term is 1941 + 95 = 2036. Xover (talk) 10:17, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • In what were the lyrics first published? TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 14:26, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The internal gazette for the Royal Canadian whatsits; Gelley was a professor at the publishing uni. at the time. Xover (talk) 14:41, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Then the copyright has been maintained, so the work should be deleted. Is there a source for the music available, or is that also under copyright? TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:02, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Symbol delete vote.svg Delete PseudoSkull (talk) 17:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 18:53, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Peggy Guggenheim, New York, N.Y. letter to Betty Parsons, New York, N.Y., 1947 May 5[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Work by a known author that was unpublished until after 2002, so it is in copyright until pma. 70 (1979 + 70 = 2049).

Letter from Marguerite "Peggy" Guggenheim (1898–1979) to Betty Parsons dated 5 May 1947.

The letter, as private correspondence, was never published. It is not obvious that the Smithsonian making it available on their web page constitutes "publication" for copyright purposes (merely being accessible for study in an archive's collections usually does not count as general publication), but it in any case happened after 2003. And as a work with a known author that was unpublished until after 2003, it is in copyright until the later of pma. 70 and 2047. In other words, this is in copyright until at least 2049. Xover (talk) 15:05, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The later of pma. 70 and 2067 actually, right? I thought it was 120 years after publication for unpublished works. In any case, Symbol delete vote.svg Delete. PseudoSkull (talk) 17:27, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Works not of corporate authorship get 70 pma after 2002. The 2047 limit only applies to works created before 1978 and published in 1978-2002.--Prosfilaes (talk) 18:45, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 19:04, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ormurin Langi[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

Traditional Faroen song, originally written in 1830, but our text is a partial translation into English by Anker Eli Petersen (1959 – fl. 2009). I can find no indication that the translation is compatibly licensed. Xover (talk) 16:08, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol delete vote.svg Delete No way this is in the PD. PseudoSkull (talk) 17:26, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Symbol delete vote.svg Delete The website on which Petersen published this translation states that the text is in the "free domain" but is available for noncommercial use only. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 02:06, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 19:06, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nigeria We Hail Thee[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Work may possibly be {{PD-EdictGov}} by virtue of having been first published verbatim in a law making it the national anthem, however as we have been unable to track down the text of that enactment it will have to go for now.

A former national anthem for Nigeria, written in 1960 by Lillian Jean Williams (fl. 1960), apparently in English.

Nigeria is a pma. 70 country, and since Williams was clearly alive in 1960 I see no way this could be public domain. Xover (talk) 16:59, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Symbol delete vote.svg Delete, clearly not PD. Will fall into the PD in the US in 2056. PseudoSkull (talk) 17:24, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Although apparently the sound recordings of it are apparently only 50 years... Also she was a government employee at the time but not sure it qualifies as a government work than but if so it would by 2031 (creation + 70) for Nigerian copyright. Also, I imagine the law enacting it as a national anthem with the text would be covered by Edict-GOV for the US copyright? MarkLSteadman (talk) 19:39, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • This was proclaimed by ordinance the national anthem, and the ordinance counts as an edict of government. I believe that would disqualify this work from Williams’ individual copyright. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:02, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Bleh. These cases are annoying. Did you find something EdictGov-ish that actually includes the lyrics? Xover (talk) 19:09, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I looked at the official gazette and couldn't find the ordinance... MarkLSteadman (talk) 22:09, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    No; I don’t have a good source for Nigerian gazettes. The Wikipedia article has sources for the ordinance, but I can’t find that text now. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:24, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I found these two sources for the Official Gazette, no luck (also when looking for laws containing it). MarkLSteadman (talk) 00:53, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you. The lack of any reference to Nigeria’s anthems in the gazettes actually makes me less convinced. If they were at least mentioned, but not reprinted, that would close the discussion, but their total lack of reference prevents me from making that conclusion. Either the ordinance was published in an issue not on either Website, was not published but did occur (is official, and therefore an edict), or the anthem wasn’t official. However, none of these options seem reasonable, so I’m at a loss. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 01:22, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The gazettes linked above do provide a scan backing for the constitution to replace Constitution of Nigeria (1960), as well as probably Nigerian Copyright Law and Constitution of Nigeria (1999) if someone wants to track them down and back those texts. MarkLSteadman (talk) 01:57, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The 1960 constitution is the second schedule to the Nigeria (Constitution) Order in Council, 1960 (here). I cannot find consistent gazettes from 1990 (copyright law) or 1999 on either Website, however. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 02:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The copyright law is actually from December 19, 1988 which unfortunately is missing. MarkLSteadman (talk) 03:01, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @MarkLSteadman WIPO Lex has the current law here. Jarnsax (talk) 06:41, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I found an example of the Namibian anthem from the Government Gazette of the Republic of Namibia on pg. 7 here. Would that be acceptable to upload and transclude as well?) MarkLSteadman (talk) 21:56, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • MarkLSteadman: Yes, it would. That anthem is explicitly dedicated to the public domain as well, which is nice. (When you do, I’ll take a stab at the score.) TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:01, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 19:10, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Nazi's Aim Is Slavery[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

1940 radio speech by Édouard Daladier (1884–1970), the then PM of France.

France is pma. 70 and has no PD-USGov type exceptions, so the speech as such is in copyright in France until at least 2040. In addition, it seems highly unlikely the PM of France would address the people of France in any language but French, so our text is also a translation of unknown provenance. In either case it is in copyright in the US until 2066. Xover (talk) 17:15, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol delete vote.svg Delete as this is clearly not in the public domain. However @Xover: a minor note, but I'm not sure where you got the year 2066. According to the Music Modernization Act, which would include radio recordings, "recordings that were first published between 1923 and 1946 are copyrighted for a period of 100 years after first publication." So therefore (at least the French version of this) would go into the PD in the US in 2040, the same year as in France coincidentally. That's barring the copyright status of any English-translated version that this might have been copied from. PseudoSkull (talk) 17:20, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The speech has a separate copyright from the recording. I doubt the French work is copyright until 2066; it was probably published contemporaneously, making it 2036 in the US, and almost certainly wasn't unpublished until 1978, giving it publication+95.--Prosfilaes (talk) 18:48, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
2066 was probably from 1970 + 95 + 1. But it was a braino in any case. Xover (talk) 19:12, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 19:12, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I Am a Cat[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Translation was first published in 1906, so it is out of copyright in the US.

There does not seem to be any actual indication that the translation was published in 1918. It seems to me that the uploader was confused, since Botchan (by the same author and translator) was translated in 1918. The translation of I Am a Cat is from here without a date or translator, and other sources suggest that the first English translation was published in 1961. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 02:50, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Searching for the text of the Introduction, points to this translation by Aiko Ito, which was first published in 1972Beleg Tâl (talk) 02:54, 3 August 2021 (UTC)+info[reply]
There is this version with the first two chapters and a claimed date of 1906 MarkLSteadman (talk) 03:33, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, this copy if well known: [6]. The “1918” is a mistake, not the “1906.” TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 14:37, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    ... is that a full scan? can someone in the USA grab it for us? —Beleg Tâl (talk) 22:49, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's a full scan of the first volume, the first two chapters.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:15, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And I am downloading it now.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:21, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's at File:I am a Cat (1906).djvu.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:50, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the interests of this dunce understanding this discussion when it comes time to close it… Why are we talking about the "first two chapters"? Is that all that's translated in the 1906 translation? Or is that all that's been transcribed here? Is this a multi-volume work (since Prosfilaes mentions "the first volume")? If so, how many volumes does the 1906 translation encompass? --Xover (talk) 08:25, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Xover: The work in question (as translated and added to Wikisource) includes some preliminary material and the first two chapters of the work. This content makes up the first volume of the translation, which has been placed elsewhere on the Internet, as well. The only translation of this work I have ever been able to find on the Internet is the first volume of the 1906 translation, which only includes the first two chapters. I do not know if there are more volumes of the 1906 translation, or whether there were intended to be but the project was closed. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 12:25, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
HathiTrust claims there's a second volume, but doesn't have a copy of it, even hidden. All I can say is that the volume that HathiTrust does have available has only the first two chapters. Allegedly, each chapter largely stands alone, so it does have value.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:44, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yay Mansell. It was not scanned for some reason, but the University of Chicago apparently does have the second volume. [7]. There is also a 1923 translation by Elford Eddy from the Japanese-American News in San Francisco, held by the New York Public Library. [8] Jarnsax (talk) 07:16, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 19:15, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

4Q174 and 4Q521[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Modern translation of ancient work, where the translation is in copyright.

Both of these have been around, unsourced and unlicensed since 2005 and 2008 respectively. The untranslated fragments themselves are obviously in the public domain due to being literally thousands of years old (the source of that can be found here and here). However, I can't find the source for these translations, and I've done a mild amount of digging. Maybe someone knowledgable about translations of original Biblical material can set me straight on this one... PseudoSkull (talk) 01:58, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • The codes given above identify some fragments of the Dead Sea scrolls, the originals of which are clearly in the public domain. However, they were not found until the mid-20th century, so translations of them are less likely to be in the public domain. I may be mistaken, but these translation appear to originate from The Dead Sea Scrolls Translated (Watson, 1994), which is still under copyright. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 19:17, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A New Determination of Molecular Dimensions[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio. If re-added once copyright expires it should be scan-backed and fully proofread.

1905 PhD thesis by Albert Einstein, originally written in Germany (which would mean the original was probably in German). I believe the source of this was from this online document which is apparently a digitized translation, although I can't tell if it was copied from an original translated source, or if they translated it themselves.

On top of the copyright status of the translation being dubious, according to the source itself, our transcription is not even close to being complete. Literally only the first paragraph is present. So it could just be deleted on that basis, as well as being unsourced. PseudoSkull (talk) 02:04, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • The PDF you have referenced is an excerpt from Einstein’s Miraculous Year (1998), which stated, “The English translations that appear here are new.” The work is still under copyright (unless it has been released). TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • For our purposes, we're just concerned about the US copyright, which will expire at the end of this year.--Prosfilaes (talk) 08:39, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Prosfilaes Thanks. I tend to forget that Wikisource doesn't have the 'and in the source country' rule that Commons uses. Jarnsax (talk) 19:31, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 19:19, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]


The following discussion is closed:
For practical purposes this is a Georgian work and not subject to any exceptions from copyright there. It is in copyright in the US.

Whoo, boy, we've got a complicated one here. This is an English translation of the national anthem of Abkhazia, a partially recognized state that is considered part of Georgia.

Some things to note for Abkhazian copyright itself (absent of the translation):

  • Presumably it was made by the Abkhazian government. If this can be considered an edict of a government, it might be PD-US.
  • If not (we'd probably have to be looking at URAA), it was adopted in 1992. According to c:Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Abkhazia, Abkhazia is not recognized by the URAA. However, Georgia itself is. I don't know if this matters or not; should we consider the URAA status of Georgia itself, or not consider it because it's Abkhazian?
  • See also c:Template:PD-GE-exempt (government works part established 1999), c:Template:PD-Georgia, c:Template:PD-AB-exempt (government works part established 2006).

About the translation:

  • Wikipedia also has our translation on their Wikipedia article on the subject. So one of us may need to bring this up there too if it gets deleted here.
  • Our transcription was created in 2018. The header says it's from 2007. No indication has been given as to whether it was taken from Wikipedia itself or if it's from a more "official" source. If it was taken from WP, maybe we should move to the Translation namespace. If not, we need to determine if the translation is freely licensed. It probably wouldn't be though.

PseudoSkull (talk) 02:24, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I would consider the confluence of international confusion regarding Abkhazia to justify this work as not being within the scope of the URAA. However, this translation is copyright 2009–2011, and will thus need to be deleted. (The version on Wikipedia is acceptable as free use, but the version here is not.) TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The US does not recognise Abkhazia as a sovereign nation, so for copyright purposes it would be a Georgian work. Since Georgia does not recognise Abkhazia as a sovereign nation the anthem is not a a national anthem in Georgia and thus not covered by the Georgian exemption for national symbols. In effect it is thus a work by a private organisation and in copyright for whatever the relevant term might be (far too long to be relevant for us in any case). Xover (talk) 08:59, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The URAA is irrelevant here; it's only about restoring works to copyright. If it was produced in a Berne signator since 1989, it would be in copyright in the US. Since it was produced in Georgia, it would be copyright in the US.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:41, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems to me like Abkhazia’s laws concerning copyright should be used to determine whether copyright is claimed or released for works of that government (or works made for the same for hire), as (inasmuch as they are a country) the works as such are considered edicts of government, state symbols, or otherwise. (For works not of the its production, this claim would be less sound.) Their anthem certainly seems to fall under an exception to Abkhazia’s copyright, and I believe that Abkhazia acting as a country de facto does not claim copyright for that work, and thus the work does not (in the country de jure of origin, Georgia) have copyright; but this is just one interpretation. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:17, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm looking at the legal situation from the perspective of the law of armed conflict (as far as the source text)... specifically, Article 42 of the fourth Hague Convention has been taken to say that the military power exercising 'de facto' authority over an area is responsible for civil law, and from the dates I gather that they were effectively independent when this was written. The "ACT OF STATE INDEPENDENCE OF THE REPUBLIC OF ABKHAZIA" from 1999 [9] also claim they exercised both 'de facto' and 'de jure' authority since at least 1994. Georgia's claim that the area is occupied by Russia is a concession that they lack de facto authority, and Russia recognizes Abkhazia. I think it's clear that they legally are the government, de facto, in that they hold the obligation under the law of war to maintain peace and order...nobody else is asserting it (Georgia's claim is only de jure). Though it's discussing actual invasion, I think the discussion on page 18 of supports this... that it's the actual exercise of authority that is important. Looking at the dates, it's unclear that Georgia ever really had de facto control after the Soviet Union fell apart.
This would also imply that, without international recognition or membership in any copyright treaties, their works are unprotected in the US (and most of the world) due to a lack of national the opinion of the US, the land is essentially unowned, Georgia just has a claim.. Jarnsax (talk) 08:53, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
here is the US Secretary of State, back in 2008, discussing the "representatives of the de facto leaders of the Georgian regions of..." So, no legal personhood for the Abkhazian government under US law (not recognized) but their de facto authority is acknowledged. Jarnsax (talk) 21:23, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Jarnsax: I am disinclined to apply a novel(ish) reading of the Hague Convention to copyright. The area is recognized by most of the world (minus Russia) as belonging to Georgia, meaning they are not a sovereign nation, meaning they don't get to make laws that are recognized by other countries (except Russia). Which means I'm going to treat it as a Georgian work as per above. I hold it entirely possible that SCOTUS might agree with you, but until that happens I am going to apply the much simpler variant. Otherwise my head might literally explode. (But thanks for providing the insight even so: it was both interesting and edifying, and we may have to apply some reasoning based on it eventually, so it was most appreciated!) Xover (talk) 19:38, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 19:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Ballad of Abbreviations[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
By all available information, the work was first published in the UK in 1927, by an author who died in 1937. It was in copyright in the UK on the URAA date, so its US copyright was restored to a pub. + 95 year term. In other words, it is in copyright in the US until after 2022.

A poem credited to G. K. Chesterton, who died in 1936. Our transcription does not provide a year of publication. I can find literally no scans that give any information whatsoever about this poem, much less that give the poem itself. The only places I find the poem are apparent transcriptions that were released online, which is probably where this originally came from. While I'll say it's more likely than not (if this is for real) that the poem was published somewhere before 1926, we can't make any bets on it if we don't know. There's also no telling as to whether this was unpublished and later published posthumously before 2003. PseudoSkull (talk) 14:34, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot find a version published before 1932 text copyright page, where is appears under "new poems". The user was pointy with copyright text, circumstantial evidence there also suggests delete. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 16:38, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • [Note: Though copyrighted 1932, it was apparently published in 1941.] TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a “new poem,” would not the copyright rest in this new work? The Collected Poems of G. K. Chesterton was copyrighted in the U.S., but was not renewed, making all of the poems in that work (and first published in that work) in the public domain. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It is a "new poem" in this particular collection of poems, which had been published in at least two previous editions (by two other publishers). I am not comfortable, on this basis, to conclude that this was the first publication for this particular poem: Chesterton was British and absent contradictory evidence the most likely assumption is that it was first published in the UK somewhere.
    In particular, in Sunday Morning (1930, London: William Heineman), in an entry dated "July 3, 1927", J.C. Squirs expresses a desire, thwarted by insufficient space, to quote "A Ballad of Abbreviations". That is, it was at that time an extant work, and unless Squirs had read it in Chesterton's personal notes, it was apparently then also a published work.
    However, perhaps we can antedate it to more than 95 years ago? If it the standing terminus ante quem is July 1927, it doesn't take all that much to push it back beyond the 95-year-limit. Xover (talk) 10:06, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    This copy is a reprint of an edition, "Originally published by Mr. Cecil Palmer, June 1927 First published by Methuen & Co. Ltd. (Third Edition) September 1933. It has been reprinted ten times …" A subsequent half-title states "New Poems 1932". It might have appeared in the 1927 'collected poems', which is "the volume" Squirs was reviewing? That's all I could find CYGNIS INSIGNIS 11:33, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 12:15, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Behold, a rose of Judah[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

A translation of a poem from another language, apparently by "Liturgy of the Hour". Year of translation was not given. No results on Google Books or the Internet Archive from before 1926 for the poem title given. PseudoSkull (talk) 14:46, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I believe this is the translation from the Roman Catholic Liturgy of the Hours (here, without that poem), rather than a group of that or a similar name. As that was introduced in the 1970s, I believe this translation is most likely still under copyright. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 13:35, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bogdan Gasiński's letter to the District Prosecutor's Office in Olsztyn[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Modern letter from private individual that is still in copyright.

A Polish letter from 2001.

  1. Could this be considered PD in Poland? See c:Template:PD-Polishsymbol and c:Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Poland.
  2. Could this be considered PD in the US by extension?
  3. Where did the English translation come from, and can it be considered PD? PseudoSkull (talk) 15:12, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe the English translation is from the editor who created the page, so this page should be moved to the Translation: namespace. This may be in the public domain in Poland, but I wouldn’t want to make the final call. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Why would this be PD in Poland? Xover (talk) 10:10, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 13:38, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bush and Blair conversation[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Text is composed entirely of a recording of impromptu speech which is not eligible for copyright protection by virtue of not being fixed in a tangible medium. The transcript itself is a mere mechanical reproduction of the recorded speech which is not eligible for independent copyright protection.


  1. Header text: "While at the 2006 G8 Summit, US President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair held an impromptu discussion about the on-going 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict before the latter realised that a microphone in the room was still recording."
  2. w:32nd_G8_summit#Recorded_conversations

My opinion: Just because this involved the US president at the time does not mean it was necessarily a work of the US federal government. Looks to me like this conversation was originally published, transcribed, and recorded by BBC, which is the national broadcaster of the UK. According to this link, it does not look like their content is necessarily freely licensed. Another actor and potential copyright holder in this was The Independent. PseudoSkull (talk) 16:17, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@PseudoSkull: Off-the-cuff remarks and impromptu speech are generally ineligible for copyright. A video recording of such a conversation, fixing it in a permanent format, would gain independent copyright though. Which means we could host a transcript of the conversation, but not be able to "scan" back it (we could link to a legal online source for the clip though). Xover (talk) 16:51, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Xover: "Off-the-cuff remarks and impromptu speech" in their own right, maybe, but wouldn't the entire series of remarks together be considerable as a copyrightable sum of its parts? PseudoSkull (talk) 19:04, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@PseudoSkull: Not so far as I know, no. Copyright requires fixation in a tangible form. If they had written it down beforehand the notes would have been protected by copyright, and their reading the notes aloud would be a "performance" of those copyrighted words. But here they're just speaking, no matter how long.
Now the unidentified "U.S. TV crew" that recorded the conversation might have a copyright if it was caught on video, but only on the recording (angles, composition, lighting, etc.) not on the words themselves. If it was an audio recording they would probably not get copyright due to it being a mere mechanical reproduction (but this is a bit iffy and unsettled I believe). Xover (talk) 20:06, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Xover: What Wikisource license template would properly represent this, if it exists? PseudoSkull (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@PseudoSkull For the given case (then realized a microphone was on...) the alleged 'work' fails the fixation requirement. "A work is “fixed” in a tangible medium of expression when its embodiment in a copy or phonorecord, by or under the authority of the author, is sufficiently permanent or stable..." to quote 17 USC (bold mine). Neither the 'alleged author' nor the 'unauthorized recordist' can either hold a copyright in an 'unauthorized fixation' of an otherwise unfixed conversation, there is no copyrightable subject matter, and it's just PD-ineligible.
What Xover said about if the camera was just running (and the speakers didn't know) is correct... the way I'd phrase it is the cameraman can only claim the part of the recording that he actually has 'authorship' of...the composition, etc, but not what was said.
Of course, then you could get into all kinds of technical arguments, like if they were wearing a wireless mike and knew it was on, but didn't think it was being recorded, since the act of knowingly 'broadcasting' (even ephemeral) fixes a work....
In reality, what generally happens with political speeches is that the speakers actually wants them to be considered 'news of the day' (if broadcast live, especially by multiple stations) so that news outlets can copy it from each other legally. Jarnsax (talk) 21:22, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Jarnsax: @Xover: I think we need a Wikisource template to properly represent this. Right now it's unlicensed. Something like {{PD-US-intangible}}. PseudoSkull (talk) 00:08, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 13:44, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May Declaration[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

Tomobe03: This translation (of PD-old 1917 original) from Jelavich, History of the Balkans (vol. 2) (1983), which in turn is taken from Petrovich, A History of Modern Serbia, 1804–1918 (vol. 2) (1976). Both are still copyrighted. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 16:26, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol delete vote.svg Delete — The main works containing the originals of the translations have copyright notices. Find a different source or translate it yourself. PseudoSkull (talk) 20:38, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 13:59, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Waldorf public school trial transcript[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Consists entirely of transcribed improvisational speech that is not eligible for copyright. It has been tagged as {{PD-ineligible}}. It is however also a copydump, so it's going to get its turn at WS:PD as well shortly.

I… don't really know what to make of this. It is a transcript from a court somewhere, and it seems most likely to be public domain, but I find myself unable to articulate precisely why or how to tag it. Help? Xover (talk) 15:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol delete vote.svg Delete I'm fairly sure the verbatim speech of lawyers within a court is not automatically PD, even if the judgements of that court are? Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 16:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looked like impromptu speech / off-the-cuff remarks to me, but I didn't read all of it so the later parts may have more preparation. Xover (talk) 17:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, having read through the whole thing now… What it looks like to me is simple transcript of off the cuff remarks: the parties and the judge are discussing back and forth, and while certainly some arguments were prepared in advance, I see no sign that anybody was reading out loud from notes (except for looking up bare facts) or otherwise the presence of any copyrightable material. So I'm going to go ahead and call this {{PD-ineligible}}. It is also an unformatted copydump so if anybody wants to suggest we delete it on those grounds I'd be all for it, but I am primarily interested in determining what license should apply to it just now. Xover (talk) 17:28, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Inductiveload: Objections to calling this {{PD-ineligible}}? Xover (talk) 17:10, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If the rule is indeed that improv speech is ineligible. However, based on a (re-)reading of this guidance:

Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

Are we sure that that is true? Presumably it was "fixed in a tangible form" since we have a transcript of it. And in 2005, no registration was necessary. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 23:15, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • For a work to be “fixed,” it must be captured either by or under the authority of the author. The authors of the material here have no authority to direct the fixation of their speeches, as that is mandated by law, so they are not “fixed” for copyright-law purposes. (At least, that’s how I see it; and the Compendium (p. 53/300:6) declares that “some works … may not satisfy the fixation requirement, such as an improvisational speech.”) TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 01:40, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That is my understanding as well. Xover (talk) 07:37, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • That does makes sense. Thank you for the clarification.
  • I suggest that rather than {{PD-ineligible}}, which doesn't mention this route to the public domain, we create a specific template for this case that cites the above wording. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 09:13, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Something like {{PD-not-fixed}}, though the name and content can be tweaked if anyone thinks it need improvement! Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 11:06, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Inductiveload: Do we really need a separate template for this? There are multiple routes to being ineligible for copyright; lack of fixity, insufficient originality, consisting only of facts (i.e. data), being a functional object, etc. I think we would be better off just tweaking the text of {{PD-ineligible}} a bit. Xover (talk) 17:38, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Xover: well certainly we don't need one but whichever template we do use must explicitly explain the route to the public domain and refer to the relevant text. I thought it would be clearer than piling more cases into the template that's more about the creative content (or, rather, lack of) than a "procedural" failure to achieve fixation. If you think merging then is better, then fine by me too. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 19:05, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 09:49, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Psychology of Religion[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
From all available evidence, this work was first published in the US, with a copyright notice, but the copyright was not renewed and so expired after the then-current 28-year term of protection.

1927 work by Joseph McCabe (1867–1955). In copyright in the UK until 2026 (pma. 70), and in copyright in the US until 2023 (pub. 95). Xover (talk) 14:14, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol delete vote.svg Delete PseudoSkull (talk) 14:58, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Look at the scan: published in Girard, Kansas, United States. Copyrighted, but not renewed; thus, PD-US-no-renewal. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 15:09, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In that case Symbol keep vote.svg Keep but only for the purposes of CV. The copydump we currently had still has a case for being deleted at PD. PseudoSkull (talk) 15:14, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      1. That’s why I got a scan.
      2. This isn’t remotely a copydump. This is a perfectly formatted work. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 15:16, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @TE(æ)A,ea.: There's a scan? Xover (talk) 16:51, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Xover: Yes: I requested a modification at Scan Lab under that item. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 17:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @TE(æ)A,ea.: Bleh. I failed to imagine that a work added in 2013 might have a current request in at Scan Lab. Are we reasonably sure that the scan is the first published edition? McCabe was a UK author and resident there all his life from a quick scan of his enwp bio. Xover (talk) 17:20, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Xover: Yes: With no other imagined results in WorldCat, and with all works in that series published in the U.S., it seems pretty clear to me. (I found it as I was going through works without licenses; by the way, no PD sources for English editions/translations/commentary for Paripatal.) TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 17:27, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        @TE(æ)A,ea.: Thanks! I'll leave this open for the requisite two weeks, but it now looks like a pretty clear {{PD-US-no-renewal}} to me. Xover (talk) 17:31, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Aha! w:E. Haldeman-Julius explains it. Indeed, that makes it most likely that this was a US first publication, and similarly suggests possible reasons for lack of renewal. Xover (talk) 17:28, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 06:14, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Un Canadien errant (Gibbon)[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
The text sits right on the edge and may or may not fall on either side of the cutoff date and other crucial copyright facts. The work entire (book) should fall out of copyright in the US in 2023 so a scan-backed addition of it at that time should be fine. In the meanwhile we have other editions of the text.

English translation by John Murray Gibbon (1875–1952) first published in England in 1927. pma. 70 means its UK copyright runs until 2022, which means it was in copyright in the UK on the URAA date and its US copyright term expires at the end of 1927 + 95 = 2022. Even if one presumed a Canadian copyright term (Gibbon was "Scottish-Canadian") of pma. 50 it would have been in copyright on the URAA date and have its US copyright restored. Xover (talk) 18:09, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • An OCLC/WorldCat record indicated a simultaneous publication in the U.S., which would make it in the public domain, assuming a lack of renewal and/or notice. I don’t think that there would be any differences between the editions to make a London song version versus a New York song version. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 17:18, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @TE(æ)A,ea.: WorldCat suggests it was possibly published the same year, but "simultaneous publication" for Copyright purposes must happen within 30 days. Can you find any evidence that was actually the case?
    PS. I never take WorldCat alone as evidence of anything at all: it is a raw dump of every library catalog (which, on average, are utter crap) with zero quality control. Xover (talk) 17:34, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The U.S. (New York) publication certainly exists, but CCE seems unavailing as to a more specific date of publication. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 19:10, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Ok, digging into this I find…
On 2 February (a Wednesday) The Gazette in Montreal mentions the Canadian edition as being "due to appear next week". On 4 February (a Friday) the Calgary Herald describes it as "has just been published", and on 5 February (a Saturday) the Gazette reviews it. I'd say we can split the difference and say Canadian publication was on Monday, 7 February 1927 and the papers just slightly jumped the gun based on a review copy.
States-side I find the Forth-Worth Star-Telegram mentions the work on 6 March, but doesn't make clear which edition they are referring to nor clearly indicate publication date. On 10 March the Brewton Standard (Alabama) calls it "the book just published by Mr. Gibbon through Dutton & Co., New York". Based on this the US edition must have been already published before 10 March, and that makes the 6 March mention in Texas almost certain to be referring to the US edition.
That means the evidence puts the delta at 30 days give or take a few, and the actual outcome depends on how one weights the variables. If you think the Canadian reviews means it was already published the gap widens; but if you think Texas and Alabama reviews lag behind a New York publication the gap narrows.
Our best directly supported dates are 7 February in Canada and 6 March in the US, which just squeaks through the "within 30 days" limit.
Iff it falls within 30 days it is a US work for copyright purposes, and subject to formal requirements of visible copyright notice and renewal in the 28th year. I can't see the scans so I can't tell whether they have a notice, but I can find no sign of any registration or renewal so they would, in that case, be {{PD-US-no-renewal}}.
This all hinges on (subjective) assessment of the variables, so I would very much like to hear the community's take on this in either direction. --Xover (talk) 08:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So we have a UK work that snuck into US copyright protection through the 'bilateral relations' hole... footnote 8. It's not Berne, so the rules are actually different... under the 1909 Act, after a quick review, they had to deposit a single copy of the foreign edition within 30 days for 'ad interim' protection, and then had another 30 days to produce an "authorized edition" in the US... presumably cut and bound in New York to meet the manufacturing requirement. That would give them a 28 year term, and given the presence of a single copy at the LoC it seems likely they did so. Doesn't sound good. Jarnsax (talk) 02:40, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I paged through a few hundred of the VCC scans, around his name. Found a number of cards for him, for both 'first US publications' and 'ad interim', all for different titles in the same time period, but none for this work. I did also notice he was Canadian (lived in Windsor Station, Quebec) but the US also had bilateral relations with them (starting in 1924). This is looking to me like a lot like a URAA case... it might have actually not net the manufacturing requirement. Jarnsax (talk) 03:55, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously, not finding this was bugging me. The work is in Mansell here... looks like a UK publication the NYPL acquired on June 23 1927, then one by Dutton in New York listed as "Printed in Great Britain" at some point in 1927, and then the 1929 UK reprint. Jarnsax (talk) 04:52, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment Checking now I find I've failed to tag the work itself with {{copyvio}} so interested contributors have not been able to discover that it is being discussed here (in particular, Beleg Tâl may wish to comment). For that reason I am inclined to keep this discussion open for at least an additional week from today. --Xover (talk) 05:43, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is a lot to parse through. I'm inclined to say, if in doubt, Symbol delete vote.svg Delete. We have other translations. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 18:10, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 06:24, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Adolf Hitler's Speech to the Workers of Berlin (10 December 1940)[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
The copyright status of the German-language original is unknown and with a balance of probabilities that indicates the work is in copyright both in Germany and in the US. However, this translation was made by the US federal government at a time when it held the US copyright through seizure of foreign assets. The translation is thus covered by {{PD-USGov}} even if the original may now be in copyright. This state of affairs is exceptional and should not be presumed to obtain for any other situation, no matter the seemingly similar circumstances, without a prior discussion at WS:CV. Reusers are urged to exercise caution and do their own investigation regarding copyright status in the jurisdictions relevant to them, preferably in consultation with a competent copyright lawyer.

Unsourced and unlicensed, from 2015. I can find several sources both online and on Google Books which seem to be matches, but am unsure what the original source for the translation was.

In order for this to be considered PD, 1.) it would have to have been in the PD in Germany by 1996, and 2.) the English translation would have to be in the PD in the US as well, and/or whatever country it originated from. PseudoSkull (talk) 02:09, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • The work, being a product of Hitler in his political office, is in the public domain; and the translation (prepared by the U.S. government) is also in the public domain. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Remind me… Why are Hitler's speeches in the public domain? Xover (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I can’t find it off-hand, but the URAA didn’t restore copyright to works of the German and Japanese governments following World War II. While I don’t remember how far this stretched, I’m fairly sure it would include Hitler’s speeches as a political figure (while, for example, excluding his Mein Kampf). TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 12:25, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Xover Any 'American' copyrights owned by Hitler would have been transferred to the w:Office of Alien Property Custodian. Per 17 U.S. Code § 104A(a)(2), "Any work in which the copyright was ever owned or administered by the Alien Property Custodian and in which the restored copyright would be owned by a government or instrumentality thereof, is not a restored work." We know for a fact this applied to Mein Kampf.... the Allies gave the copyright to the Barvarian government at the end of the war. Presumably, the same applied to his other intellectual property. Jarnsax (talk) 20:15, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Jarnsax, @TE(æ)A,ea.: Do we even have a license template for this case? It's not PD-EdictGov, nor PD-USGov. PD-Ineligible would seem to be the right idea, but {{PD-Ineligible}}.
Is this even PD? It may not have been "restored", but if it's owned by the Alien Property Custodian… the US Government can still hold copyrights through deed or seizure (they just can't create new ones themselves). Xover (talk) 19:27, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Xover Poked around at the exact history and learned a bit more....
The US publishing rights (to Mein Kampf) belonged to Houghton Mifflin, and when it was seized under the Trading with the Enemy Act copyright ownership went to the US government (H-M kept the publishing rights, which was a preexisting license) and royalties were paid into the War Relief Fund until 1979, when Houghton Mifflin bought out the government royalty. I think that the "rights and claims of every character and description" (I looked up the text) seized would include the right to create and/or license a US translation of a work created in Germany (it was filmed, obviously by authority, so fixed).
It turns out that the non-US copyright had a different history. When the Nazi organizations were dissolved and their property seized by Allied Control Council Law #2 their publisher was #12 on the list. These are the rights that went to the Bavarian government in 1951. (Never dug up exactly how this happened before, I thought these rights had gone through the APC, which is part of why the story had always seemed a bit odd.)
Looking at the US Government publication in 1943, the US government owned the US copyright by seizure, so this would have been an authorized US publication. The Office of War Information was an Executive agency, and there is no copyright notice, so I think the book itself (assuming our translation matches the book) would be PD-USGov. Even if "Hitler's" US copyrights were later sold or returned (which AFAIK did not happen), that shouldn't affect the status of the translation.
Having been administered by the Alien Property Custodian is really just a bar to URAA restoration, and doesn't seem to be the ruling norm here. I think the translation (as a licensed derivative work) became PD in 1943.
As far as a specific 'not restored' license tag, I don't think that's the way to go. The URAA didn't "make" non-restored works PD, it didn't change their status at all. The actual 'license tag' needs to tell us why the work became PD, and having been owned/administered by the APC (returned or not) didn't affect the term of the copyright. It'd be more along the lines of mentioning that we checked for a URAA restoration. Jarnsax (talk) 21:57, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Jarnsax: Granted I'm not really digging into this right now, but I'm having trouble figuring out the actual copyright status of this particular work, even with the above information.
Regarding the US book publication you mention, {{PD-USGov}} only applies to original works created by the government. They can hold a third party copyright and license it any way they choose. So mere publication by the government is not ipso facto proof that it is PD. It only affects secondary issues like whether it is eligible for URAA restoration.
So is it the case that the copyright has expired? Did it fail to comply with the formalities required at the time? Xover (talk) 06:31, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Xover Right. My impression is that 1943 translation by the US Government itself (not the original German text) was a "work for hire" of the OWI, a derivative work created 'by license' while the APC was in control of the copyright in the original. I doesn't look to me like the translation was ever under copyright due to this. Jarnsax (talk) 17:54, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Jarnsax: a dim lightbulb begins flickering… Hmm. Ok, so the US copyright in the German-language original was seized by the Alien Property Custodian. The APC authorised an English-language translation to be made and published by the Office of War Information. OWI was a part of the federal government so its works are {{PD-USGov}} and in isolation we can use that tag for the translation.
But considering {{translation license}} requires a license tag in its |original= parameter, what is the current US status of the German-language original? Does the US still hold it (they only returned 10% of seized assets after the war I think)? Was it returned to Bavaria? Has it expired? Xover (talk) 20:34, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Xover That's one question I don't have an answer to, and not even a real idea where to search. :/ Jarnsax (talk) 20:42, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(ce) Well, technically that isn't true, but I doubt 'go dig through some unscanned NARA records file' is realistic. Jarnsax (talk) 20:49, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, let's try to reason through this…
When was the German-language original first subject of general publication (the performance of the speech doesn't count: it's just a performance, not a general publication, for copyright purposes)? Where was it first published, and was it simultaneously (within 30 days) published in the US?
If it had a copyright in the US that could be seized, the seizure did not affect that copyright: it was just a transfer of ownership like an inheritance or sale. Only if the copyright has expired through other means does that seizure come into play in that it prevents restoration by the URAA.
The most promising path to PD is that it was first published in Germany before 1977 without a copyright notice, or before 1963 with a notice but without a subsequent renewal. Stanford lists only renewals for Mein Kampf so a renewal is unlikely.
But if first publication for copyright purposes happened after the war the URAA comes back into play. And if it was unpublished until 2003 there's a pma. 70 term to deal with.
In other words, there seems to be plenty of paths to copyright for the German-language original, and the paths to PD for it hinge on when and where actual publication happened. Iff publication happened during the war, and it was seized by the APC, then it is barred from URAA restoration, but any original copyright could still subsist. Xover (talk) 09:41, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, for reference, in order to resolve this I have made this edit attempting to resolve this issue. Please don't use this discussion / resolution as precedent in future discussions: there are way too many unknowns here. Xover (talk) 07:16, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 07:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Appeal of the Council of People's Commissars to the Muslims of Russia and the East[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Kept. License updated and moved to correct name.

A translation from Russian. Since the original Russian version was from 1917 it itself is in the public domain here in the US. However I can't say the same for the translation. The only source I can find in PDF form that matches what we have is from a 1996 volume of a Marxist magazine. That's not looking good for its copyright status... PseudoSkull (talk) 02:32, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree as to the status of the original. The translation appears to have been taken from Marxists Internet Archive, and that translation appears similar to the translation in Workers Vanguard (the Marxist magazine). The two translations are not identical, however, so I would like to hold off deletion to look into the exact source of the Internet translation. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I suspect that this translation was from Soviet Documents on Foreign Policy published in 1951 and edited by Jane Degras (1905-1973). MarkLSteadman (talk) 12:07, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • @TE(æ)A,ea.: Any luck? Is Mark's suspicion above of any help? --Xover (talk) 19:44, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actually, I forgot about this. I’m looking around for it, and should be able to look at it soon. Supposing it is from the Degras Documents, and supposing (as I believe to be true) that the translations are original to that work, it is {{PD-US-no renewal}}, if there even was a copyright. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:16, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Xover: I can confirm Mark’s suspicion: this translation is found in Soviet Documents on Foreign Policy (Jane Degras ed.), Volume 1: 1917–1924 (pp. 15–17). It is copyright 1951, but there was no renewal of that copyright, so the work is PD-US-no renewal as aforesaid. It is, however, given under the title “Appeal of the Council of People’s Commissars to the Moslems of Russia and the East,” but the text is identical. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 18:39, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 07:29, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ariane 501 Inquiry Board report[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

Very unlikely to be PD; made c. 1996, seems to be a university work and not a government work, and the English translation is of course even less likely to be PD. The PDF source given is now a dead link by the way. PseudoSkull (talk) 02:39, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • This is not a translation; it is the original. The “Inquiry Board” consisted of some university members, but was originally an official (but independent) product of cnes, the French national space agency. I’m not precisely sure at the moment of the officiality of the report, but it sits on the line of edict (with reasoning) and government work. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't see the argument for considering this to be an edict of government?
    In any case, ESA (unlike NASA) is an IGO and not an arm of some national government. It is a membership organisation in which nations can be members, and was established by treaty. For copyright purposes it is a private organisation, and all its works are subject to copyright protection. CNES is a government agency of France, so if the report had been a product of CNES it would be a French government work; but French copyright has no PD-USGov-equivalent exception so all CNES works are protected by copyright.
    The Arian 501 Inquiry Board, as an independent board, would also not be covered by any "official work" exemptions even if ESA was a government department like NASA or the board was set up by CNES alone. In fact, under most European copyright acts I believe this would have been considered a collective work of the members of the board, rather than of the board as an organisation (meaning the term is pma. 70 from the death of the longest living author). Any exemption would have to be in the form of a contract licensing the copyrighted work to ESA or CNES (or both), and the license would have to be one compatible with our policy. Xover (talk) 09:24, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    For this to be an edict of government in my view, the following (or some greater occurrence) would need to be true:
    1. This work was made by cnes, an agency of the French government.
    2. This work was intended to be, and is, a regulation (or a set of rules) concerning the operation of craft like the Ariane 501 so that the accident (I think) doesn’t happen again.
    3. In alignment with the previous circumstance, the non-regulation portion of the report would be considered as an extended series of opening remarks, justifying the regulation.
    I believe it meets the first of these requirements, but I can’t say the same of the other parts. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 12:25, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @TE(æ)A,ea.: I agree that the initiative came from CNES and ESA. But by the very nature of being an independent board of inquiry it is not a product of CNES (even ignoring ESA's role). Reports from independent ad hoc boards (not being legal persons in themselves) are usually collective works by the physical persons that make up the board, and as such are covered by their individual copyrights with expiration happening pma. 70 for the longest living author. If it were a product of CNES it would ipso facto not be independent. CNES and ESA make it downloadable because it is a public record, but cannot authorize any reuse or redistribution of it.
    In addition, as the report itself makes clear, the initiative did not come from CNES alone: "… the Director General of ESA and the Chairman of CNES set up an independent Inquiry Board and nominated the following members: [list of individual members]". That is, even if the work of the board were to be considered to be the product of the tasking organization, that tasking organization would include ESA which, as described above, is not covered by any "government work" exception.
    It would also be hard to achieve that effect because European copyright laws mostly do not use the concept of "work for hire" as we know it from US copyright: mostly it is the physical person in whom copyright vests, and what's covered by "work for hire" in the US is handled through employment contracts (and other such contractual arrangements). Since the board is an ad hoc entity set up for a particular purpose its members are not covered by normal employment contracts but rather by "terms of reference". And the terms of reference are provided in the report: "to determine the causes of the launch failure,; to investigate whether the qualification tests and acceptance tests were appropriate in relation to the problem encountered,; to recommend corrective action to remove the causes of the anomaly and other possible weaknesses of the systems found to be at fault."
    In addition, even if it were found to be a work of CNES, the terms of reference and the report itself makes clear that the report itself has no force of law: it only makes recommendations about actions, and one of those actions is to establish modified regulation. It is also not itself a legislative body, which is the other pathway to EdictGov.
    Bottom line is that I am unable to find any in which this can be covered by either EdictGov or a PD-USGov type copyright exception. --Xover (talk) 11:07, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think that pretty much calls it. Not an edict (no legal force) so not PD-US by that route, and subject to a existing copyright claim by (either/or, doesn't matter) the collective authors, ESA (which is able to claim copyright in it's own works), and CNES (ditto) until a very long time from now (I'm sure some of the authors are still alive). Jarnsax (talk) 21:22, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 07:34, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

His Excellency Mr. Somchai Wongsawat Education Policy 2008-2022[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
Deleted as copyvio.

I propose deletion of this work for the following reasons:

  1. The tagged license, Template:PD-TH-exempt, does not apply at all, because "a policy" is not a constitution, legislation, judicial decision, etc.
  2. The author, Author:Somchai Wongsawat, is still alive. Works by him are still copyrighted.

--Miwako Sato (talk) 05:33, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Miwako Sato: Please fix the (currently) 187 broken template invocations you have created by mandating a parameter before you bring this discussion here. This seems to me (unacquainted as I am with Thai copyright law) to be an “explanation[]” or “official correspondence of the Ministr[y]”—specifically, the Ministry of Education, which was headed by Somchai Wongsawat. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, I brought this discussion here before creating that function of the template. On this page (the page "His Excellency..."), I left the template so because I don't find the work falls under any of the categories mentioned in the temple. The work (titled a "policy") seems to be a speech addressed to someone (like a policy addressed to parliament), which is not covered by Template:PD-TH-exempt. Also, it is not likely an explanation or correspondence (referring to letters, which should be something like those in Category:Correspondence). I'm fixing the template on the other pages. --Miwako Sato (talk) 04:51, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Miwako Sato: What is the source of this translation? And why are we giving authorship as the minister personally, rather than to the ministry as an organisation? Xover (talk) 09:36, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  1. After googling, I found no source of this work. Wikisource was the only result returned by Google.
  2. Whether its author is a person or organisation, it's still considered a copyrighted work. If the authorship is given to a person, the author is still alive and does not appear to have released this work into public domain. Even the authorship is instead given to a government organisation (Ministry of Education in this case), the work still can't be categorised into any of the items listed in Template:PD-TH-exempt.
--Miwako Sato (talk) 10:11, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is not obvious to me that this text fits into any of the categories of {{PD-TH-exempt}}. In translations, especially, one cannot presume the colloquial meaning of a word applies. While it does mention things like "explanations", "correspondence", "reports", it does so in the context of a list containing "the constitution and legislation; regulations, bylaws, notifications [read: proclamations], orders, explanations [read: explanatory supporting material]; official correspondence of the Ministries [read: administrative decisions founded in the law or regulations]; judicial decisions, orders, and decisions": all things that either are laws or are necessary to fully understand the law and its interpretation. That is, the words must be understood in this context, and thus describe exceptions of the kind found in {{PD-EdictGov}} and not those found in {{PD-USGov}}. This is also in line with what I have found when researching copyright legislation in various jurisdictions around the world: mostly PD-USGov is unique, and "government work" exceptions, if present at all, mirror EdictGov and not PD-USGov.
    The work in question appears to be a "report" mostly in the sense that the minister responsible for this area is telling his superiors (unclear who, but looks to be some form of legislative assembly) how he plans to run his ministry and what his policy will be. It is not a "report" in the sense that his ministry has investigated some issue or another and is recommending something based on that investigation or summarising its findings. In essence, it is a speech (even if submitted in writing) in which the minister brags about his vision and policy over the next x years.
    It is also not in itself determinative, but the main Ministry of Education website contains the statement "สงวนลิขสิทธิ์ © 2562" (that is, "Copyright © 2019" translated to English and the Gregorian calendar). So it appears the ministry itself in general claims copyright without acknowledging any exceptions. Granted their website is like a tour of the web ca. 1996—complete with hit counters, horizontally scrolling marquees, and seizure-inducing animated gifs—so one would not necessarily expect to find more than such a blanket copyright claim; but it certainly provides no help for any claim of compatible licensing.
    Based on current information and arguments I am unconvinced that that square peg can be made to fit the round hole provided by {{PD-TH-exempt}}. The issue hinges on one's interpretation of the wording in the exemptions in combination with one's view of the nature of the text in question, so it is not entirely clear cut. But on balance and on available information I don't see this being covered by the exemptions. --Xover (talk) 12:10, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This section was archived on a request by: Xover (talk) 07:39, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Ballad of Long Ben[edit]

The following discussion is closed:
This is either a copyvio, a modern hoax, or so incredibly obscure it might as well be. If suitable evidence for its existence and provenance is turned up an undeletion discussion can be opened; but any sufficient evidence is likely to involve a suitably licensed scan from which it would be better to proofread it from scratch.

A poem with no source, no license, no stated author, and no year listed. I can't find anything, anywhere online besides us, even mentioning a poem of this name, much less giving the full poem.

Since the poem mentions 1894 (presumably that's the "'94" it's talking about) that increases the likelihood it was released before 1926. However if we don't know, we can't say for sure. PseudoSkull (talk) 14:39, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I came the long way round to find it: Special:WhatLinksHere/The_Ballad_of_Long_Ben gives the attribution to Henry Every (Long Ben), making that the sixteen-94. I'm guessing it's from a mid nineteenth century text. CYGNIS INSIGNIS 15:55, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It certainly wasn't written by Avery. And it's not a poem, but a