Wikisource:Scriptorium/Help/Archives/2020

Please do not post any new comments on this page. This is a discussion archive first created in 2020, although the comments contained were likely posted before and after this date. See current discussion or the archives index.

Page:2019-12-02-report-of-evidence-in-the-democrats-impeachment-inquiry-in-the-house-of-representatives.pdf/11

Okay so I set up a TemplateStyle to make this simple. And then the template style completely fails to actually apply to the table?

Have I got the wrong selectors? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:00, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Is this now working? This page has whitespace:nowrap; applied to the first column, which appears to work for me. Side note: using the existing classes for "generic" table styles as a reference, shouldn't wnw1 be __wnw1? Inductiveload—talk/contribs 11:56, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Updated, and styles now being applied :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:40, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

A limitation of CSS?

Page:Impeachment of Donald J. Trump, President of the United States — Report of the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives.pdf/572

First item should not have a bullet. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:45, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Have you tried transcluding pages? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 12:55, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Because ul's have list-style-image set on them by the CSS from load.php (list-style-image: url(/w/skins/Vector/images/bullet-icon.svg?872f1);), you have to also unset it with list-style-image:none;, as well as setting list-style-type:none; Inductiveload—talk/contribs 21:02, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Updated. It would be nice if there was a way of marking "continued" list items over multiple pages, like can be done with "follow" for references and so on... ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:26, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

You can and with wikitext. Special:Diff/9818228 means to wikicode so that the page concatenates without using <li>. If you have numerical you just do #<li value=N>, though you do need to double your use of :: inside the noinclude. I do the continuing lists all the time with DNB stuff, so do others [1] — billinghurst sDrewth 11:58, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Meaning of "Thousand"

As you may have noticed, I enjoy transcribing Annie Besant pamphlets. When looking for scans I often come across ones with something like

[SIXTH THOUSAND.]

in the front matter (example).

What does this mean? (How) Is it different from an edition? Are "Xth thousand" versions interchangeable with versions not so marked? BethNaught (talk) 17:45, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

I have always understood this to refer to a print run, not an edition. Presumably, this was printed as part of the sixth set of one thousand. I would interpret that to be part of the same edition as the previous printing, merely a different print run, and so interchangeable with other printings from the same edition. --EncycloPetey (talk) 18:17, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, 5001-6000 printed, changed title plate, other plates all the same. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:00, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Clone request :

Source: Index:2019-12-02-report-of-evidence-in-the-democrats-impeachment-inquiry-in-the-house-of-representatives.pdf
Pages: 1 to 123

to

Destination: Index:Impeachment of Donald J. Trump, President of the United States — Report of the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives.pdf Pages: 217 to 339

As the latter pages seem to be the exact same report appended or annexed. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:39, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks in advance. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:39, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Movement request of proofread pages after removed duplicates

I removed pages 36 and 37 in the source DJVU for https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Index:On_the_Sublime_1890.djvu because they were duplicates and uploaded the corrected version to commons now that the source DJVU is in proper shape. Now it would be great if someone could delete the duplicates in the proofread pages and move the following proofread pages back two (up to page 51). Thanks in advance. MarkLSteadman (talk) 22:21, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Done. Mpaa (talk) 23:07, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Footnotes - The Works of Lord Byron (ed. Coleridge, Prothero) - Volume 5

I have transcribed some pages of the above, mostly the prefaces to the longer poems. The prefaces are peppered with lengthy footnotes, which are generally manageable as I am familiar with the standard footnote method, for which I use <ref> </ref> and {{smallrefs}}, the footnote continued on one of more of the following pages <ref name=xx>, <ref follow=xx>, and a footnote within a footnote where the nested footnote is on the same page, for which I use {{#tag:ref|TOP LEVEL REFERENCE<ref group="I">NESTED REFERENCE.</ref> TOP LEVEL REFERENCE|group="O"}}{{smallrefs|group="O"}}{{smallrefs|group="I"}}. I may even have done examples (in another book) where the nested footnote is all on one page but the main footnote carries on over more than one. However, I am stuck at present because in the preface to Werner on pages 338 and 339 there is a footnote containing a footnote where both the footnote and the nested footnote continue onto the following page. How do I deal with this and still maintain footnote integrity during transclusion?

User:Xover has provided a possible solution using {{pb|label=Primus}} {{smallrefs|group="primus"}} {{pb|label=Secundus}} {{smallrefs|group="secundus"}} but also referred me here.

Regards,Chrisguise (talk) 13:03, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

@Chrisguise: Note, of course, that the primus/secundus stuff is just to make the nesting obvious (please don't use that in any actual work to be transcluded!). The key points are that there are two issues at play: nested footnotes (for which you need to use {{#tag:ref|…}}), and footnotes over multiple pages (for which you need to use <ref name="…">…</ref> and <ref follow="…">…</ref>). The two methods can be combined when both issues are relevant; and both methods can be combined with other normal methods for defining and formatting references. In particular, the use of reference groups is because I took the original work to have separate groups of references; but I do not believe reference groups are technically required to realise nested footnotes spanning multiple pages. --Xover (talk) 13:33, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Undesired line-break in interwiki transcluded pages

When a "Page" namespace page is transcluded from an other language wiki using the {{iwpage}} template, a line-break appears at the top of the page body. It is clearly visible when the page contains text in the header, for example you may compare Page:The Greek bucolic poets (1912).djvu/184 which is transcluded from el.wikisource and Page:The Greek bucolic poets (1912).djvu/185 which is not transcluded. Is there any way to get rid of it?
Αντιγόνη (talk) 10:21, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

I expect the problem is caused by the <poem> tag at the top the source page. The poem tag causes all sorts of problems, and interacts badly with other format elemants. --EncycloPetey (talk) 21:22, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

It seems not, you may check this page Page:On two Greek inscriptions, from Kamiros and Ialysos, in Rhodes, respectively (1878).djvu/11, it does not contain the <poem> tag but the line-break is present again.
Αντιγόνη (talk) 21:58, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Probably something in mul:MediaWiki:InterWikiTransclusion.js from whence the code emanates. If you can get the same problem at mulWS then it is something that they can investigate and address, they own that code. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:05, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Scan not appearing at Page:Annie Besant - The Story of Afghanistan.pdf/15

As per the heading.

I've purged all the relevant pages I can think of, and you can see the page on Commons.

Can anyone help? BethNaught (talk) 22:30, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

I think it is connected with task T188885 (which was reported almost 2 years ago). --Jan Kameníček (talk) 00:57, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

I opened task T242517, there is something that has been changed for PDF files recently.Mpaa (talk) 17:23, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

@Mpaa: See WS:S#404:Not Found (thumbs) and phab:T242422. @Jan.Kamenicek: phab:T188885 is almost certainly a different issue: the current problem seems very likely to be something introduced in the new version of MediaWiki that was deployed yesterday. --Xover (talk) 20:00, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

search and replace / regex

I've found it handy to have a search-and-replace feature built into Wikisource (the magnifying glass icon in the upper right, within the "Advanced" editing window). But it seems pretty limited. I'm curious if there's something I'm missing.

• It seems to me that it's not possible to restore text from the search string. In other programs I'm used to being able to call "variables" like "\1" -- so that, for instance, if I wanted to replace "1A" with "2A" and replace "1B" with "2B" etc., I could search for "[0-9]([A-Z])" and replace it with "2\1". Is there a way to reinsert part of the search string in Wikisource's implementation?
• More generally, it seems it might just be impossible to use any code in the "replace" field. I can't even put in a new line character with "\n" -- it just puts in the string "\n" instead of a carriage return.

Is there any way to accomplish these things with Wikisource's built-in search-and-replace function, or do I need to keep using an external editor for such tasks? -Pete (talk) 19:40, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Gadget m:TemplateScript has been around for years has regex capability for on demand or permanent. Can save searches, or you can build then into your common.js. Wouldn't leave home without it, and it saves much much work. I set mine to run from my global.js so I can utilise the feature at all wikis, though I keep my regex scripts local. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Lack of Citation

Hello all- I have recently gotten a warm reception from the community and gotten off to a great start of Wikisource some good work done on the Afghanistan-China border. However, I noticed that the Chinese character version of the treaty on the zh.wikisource lacks any citation ([:zh:中华人民共和国和阿富汗王国边界条约]). I want to be able to alert the readers that see that page that what they are reading doesn't have a known source. Is there a template like "citation needed" or anything similar that can be used on that page? What would be done if this were happening on en.wikisource? Thanks for any help. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:20, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

{{no source}} is what we use locally. I suggest you see if that template has a interwikilink through to zhWS, and utilise its equivalent. Hopefully one exists. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:57, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

It seems that zh:Template:No source is intended only for pictures… If you do not find any suitable zh template you can try leaving a message at the talk page of the page there. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 22:29, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Or just use it and let them fuss the detail. — billinghurst sDrewth 01:01, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

A very complex footnote

The footnote to Mediaeval Hymns and Sequences/Stola Regni laureatus is very complex, containing both a table that continues over a page break, and also a nested footnote. I'm having a bit of trouble getting either of these features to display properly, and any assistance would be appreciated. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 16:41, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Thoughts only, rather than a guarantee. I would suggest that you see if you can leverage {{authority reference}} directly or see if you can utilise its logic. I think that I set it up so you could just do jigsaw pieces, but it was a while ago. Basically implant sections, then utilise ye olde section transclusion to pull the requisite parts together. A Compendium of Irish Biography has its {{IrishBio ref}}. I think that I also did some complex footnote'd components in The Life of Captain Matthew Flinders, R.N. though maybe I am misremembering somewhere (unhelpful). — billinghurst sDrewth 22:01, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Based on that template, I've got the table transcluding correctly now. Nested footnote is still outstanding. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:47, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

I've got the nested footnote working now using the suggestions at H:REF#Nested footnotes. What a mess. Oh well. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:53, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

What a mess indeed. Congratulations, and thank you for documenting what you did in a comment. In case you're not satisfied with this approach, is there a way to replicate the format without using an HTML table at all? E.g. something CSS-based? -Pete (talk) 20:21, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

New

Hi I'm new and I want to help out on something. —unsigned comment by Danielstreets (talk) .

Welcome. Thanks for the heads up. I have left a welcome message on your user talk page, as it contains the most pertinent information. For new users we think that the Wikisource:Proofread of the Month is a good place to start on a collaborative work. Do feel that you can ask questions of those doing the work, or ask here if you want some advice or explanation of why we are doing things. — billinghurst sDrewth 05:03, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm doing some proofreading now and am gradually starting to get the gist of things.

Missing pages

I have uploaded File:Poet Lore, volume 27, 1916.pdf to Commons, but two pages are missing there. O found them in a different file (where unfortunately some other pages were missing). I uploaded the two pages to https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-ieqFjAHcXpPbEfxLe1BXxYnjlIkfS6K/view?usp=sharing . May I ask somebody for 1) adding the two pages to the pdf file between pages no. 232 and 233, i.e. at the beginning of the Summer Number, and 2) converting the file into djvu?

Thanks! --Jan Kameníček (talk) 22:06, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

I'd be happy to do this, but it will be 24 hours or so before I can get to it. I'll check here first to make sure I'm not duplicating somebody else's effort. -Pete (talk) 22:20, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

No problem, no need to hurry :-) --Jan Kameníček (talk) 23:45, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: I have created the file: File:Poet Lore, volume 27, 1916.djvu However, the pdf2djvu command I used gave a "segmentation fault" on the new pages, and I see the new pages appear rather grainy (but still readable). I'm not sure what I need to do to fix the problem. I can try to figure it out, but in the meantime maybe this file is helpful. -Pete (talk) 05:21, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes, those two are very grainy (it looks like they suffer the same problem as [2], which was also created from a much better PDF), but the most important thing is that the pages are not missing and the following ones are not shifted. Thanks very much! --Jan Kameníček (talk) 09:28, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

step by step

I'm a new member here, could you tell me step by step guide for a beginner like me?

--PutriAmalia1991 (talk) 03:45, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

@PutriAmalia1991: The welcome message that I put on your user talk page will help with the basics. For newbies, we invite them to the Wikisource:Proofread of the Month which is a collaborative work where you can see others at work, before or after your edits. We find it a great way to learn, and to participate in a new work being produced each month. — billinghurst sDrewth 07:05, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Why is right margin not working with img float?

I am trying to use img float to add an image as initial capital letter on this page, and find the text running right up against the image on the right despite "style=margin-right:10px." Other style attributes work fine, so what’s preventing this one? Levana Taylor (talk) 01:05, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Looking at the actual page source from HTML (choose "view source" from your browser, likely Ctrl+U):

.img-floatright{float:none!important;clear:none!important;margin:0 auto!important;padding:0!important}}.mw-parser-output

as well as

.img-floatright{float:right;clear:right;margin:0 0 0 1em;padding:0 0.5em}

So it appears that your margin-right:10px;margin-top:5px; is overridden in the cascading style sheet by an !important rule. Adding !important to your rule manually didn't work so maybe the rule can be added automatically into the template?

As an aside, why did you use a black-and-white picture for the image? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:47, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

A quite separate issue is that {{img float}} generates conflicting CSS rules: in short the expansion of polygon completely overrules any margin style.

Instead of

{{img float
|file=Initial O with Holly and Bells (transparent).png
|align=left
|width=230px
|polygon=0 0, 230px 0, 230px 258px, 168px 258px, 168px 304px, 140px 304px, 140px 361px, 0 361px
| alt=O
| style=margin-right:10px;margin-top:-5px
}}

try something like

{{img float
|file=Initial O with Holly and Bells (transparent).png
|align=left
|width=230px
|polygon=0 -5px, 240px -5px, 240px 253px, 178px 253px, 178px 299px, 140px 299px, 140px 356px, 0 356px
| alt=O
}}

You may still have to tweak this! 114.78.171.144 02:19, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

OK thanks. Note to self: do not use both margins & polygon. I think that should be in the documentation of Img Float.

As for why I went with a transparent background, that was due to someone’s parenthetical remark, a couple weeks ago, about how their mobile browser didn't use a white background which made images-as-initial-letters look weird. Is there a downside to using transparent backgrounds if you have them available? Levana Taylor (talk) 02:30, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

While you are quite right about the "ought to make a note in the template documentation" point perhaps it is worth noting the sometimes chaotic development of some templates: {{img float}} added style early in 2012, moved toward standardised styling in early 2019, added polygon in May just past… which would be the first point when your note could even possibly have started to make sense… I shall almost bet none of those 2012 editors are still contactable or would have remembered the implications of style=margin:… on the back-then non-existent CSS "shape" attributes.

I don't think Koavf was objecting to the image transparency so much as the book scan had blue and orange areas which appear to have been converted to monochrome. 114.78.171.144 03:13, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Those blue and orange areas are scan artifacts, the original pages were printed in black-and-white. Levana Taylor (talk) 03:24, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

That was in fact what I mean, 114. It's incredible that the weird scan gaussing problems (or whatever) resulted in a very beautiful coloration on that image, actually. Great work, Levana. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:42, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

I've added a note about the CSS shape-outside parameter overriding the margin box (this is a general CSS thing).

BTW, this image appears to have lost its transparency - the background is now white for me. The only downside to transparency I can think of is that if someone is using a e-reader app in night mode (light text on dark background), the image will be very low contrast. I'm not sure if that's better or worse than having a white background on all the day-mode e-readers which have a white image background on their off-white page backgrounds: e.g. File:Wikisource ePub export - The Sweeper of Dunluce.jpg.

Example of transparency: normal mode and night mode. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 09:59, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out that the image edit I did had removed the transparency, I’ve reverted it now. As for night mode e-readers, well, you can’t have everything, and I figure that’s used a lot less than off-white backgrounds ... Levana Taylor (talk) 13:03, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes, in my opinion too, it's better to get normal-mode readers looking great than night-mode, since that's surely a pretty small user-base. I much prefer the transparent approach, as, other than very dark backgrounds, it allows the reader to set their own background colours. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 13:54, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

caption above in {{Img float}}

I am trying to recreate the captioned image on this page using {{Img float}} and as you can see, the "above" parameter puts the top caption very far above the image. Is there anything I can do about that (while still floating the image)? Levana Taylor (talk) 20:44, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

{{img float}} is a span-based template, it does not expect a div-based template like {{center}} in the captions. This is because it's designed to float within paragraphs. There is a br-element after the top caption (not sure if that's actually required). It is that extra line break you were seeing. The solution in this case is to remove the center template, which wasn't necessary anyway, due to the capalign=center parameter. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 22:14, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I’ll get this right eventually. Levana Taylor (talk) 01:42, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Mediawiki being pedantic about Section syntax interaction with tables again..

A Naval Biographical Dictionary/Promotions - Lieutenants and the underlying pages..

It won't display the page numbers cleanly, DESPITE resolving the lint errors on the underlying pages..

ONE common solution please, so I can Document how cross-page tables/sections like this are SUPPOSED to be done. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:41, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

The section runs from label 'Promotions - Lieutenants' to label 'Appointments' — section 'Promotions - Lieutenants' is not the only thing required. Try substituting:

<pages index='A Naval Biographical Dictionary.djvu' from='1362' to='1363' onlysection='Promotions - Lieutenants' ></pages>

with:

<pages index='A Naval Biographical Dictionary.djvu' from='1362' to='1363' fromsection='Promotions - Lieutenants' tosection='Appointments' />

114.78.171.144 11:02, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Nope solution suggested did NOT solve the problem. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:09, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Oops. Needed an explicit section end just above ## Appointments ## label. You were right about this bit:

<pages index='A Naval Biographical Dictionary.djvu' from='1362' to='1363' fromsection='Promotions - Lieutenants' tosection='Promotions - Lieutenants' />

114.78.171.144 11:34, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Page:Sir Walter Raleigh by Thoreau, Henry David,.djvu/121

I've repaired a lint error concern here, but was wondering if any of the other contributors better versed in arcane markup interactions, knew of a more elegant solution?

As currently implemented it manifests a known issue concerning how content at the end of a page is 'wrapped' sometimes incorrectly. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:12, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Note in passing: the transluded result at Sir Walter Raleigh/Notes#95 is without flaw. The Page: space rendering (due to an implicit </p> being inserted between the penultimate and final lines) is disappointing but ultimately meaningless. 114.78.171.144 21:15, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

This is an issue that's been known about for over a decade and has still not been adequately resolved though, which is a shame as it complicates proofreading. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:59, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

{{block center}} allows for a parameter that sets the font size; it is not necessary to call another template. --EncycloPetey (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Block formatting in a reference...

In the following : Page:King Solomon's Mines (1907).djvu/227 - A lint error arises because the reference contains block level formatting, and the current Cite extension cannot handle this cleanly (as it treats references as being mostly span based). It is my understanding a work-around was previously discussed for this? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:00, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

I usually handle these situations like this --23:19, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

@EncycloPetey:  Comment Whilst I agree with your improvement, the <poem> tag itself introduces a <div> — but in all honesty I don't know whether lint objects to this; or somehow knows that because it brought in by an extension everything is O.K. Can anyone throw any light on this? 114.78.171.144 03:43, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

It's possible to remove the div as well, using <br /> to place the line breaks. My demo was the elimination of the block template. Personally, I don't use the <poem> tag because it causes too many issues. --EncycloPetey (talk) 04:48, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

The LintError wasn't showing up in the page but on the transclusion:- King Solomon's Mines/Chapter XVI, I couldn't find anything other than this reference with a DIV issue in the pages themeselves.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:49, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Converting both references in the chapter to {{#tag:ref|{{#tag:poem|...}}}} seemed to temporarily silence the lint concern, but a longer term stable solution is needed ( as using a lot of parser functions isn't good on performance.) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:54, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

And despite having done the above I'm still getting the "div-span" swap concern when the pages are transcluded. (sigh) :(

Block level elements in a REF tag is a known issue - see https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T49544 and https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T57674, but , there has not been progress made on a fix at present. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:14, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

•  Comment A reference should be able to contain block level formatting, so if that is throwing a lint error, then go back and talk to those doing the lint stuff, it would seem to be false error that needs addressing. — billinghurst sDrewth 10:45, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Did you read the tickets I linked above? At the date it was written ref tags were SPAN based. Was there a subsequent patch which changed this?

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:18, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

The patch linked from the phabricator ticket was - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/mediawiki/extensions/Cite/+/276183/ which form asking in the #mediawiki channel had not been merged yet. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:31, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

No, and I have zero interest. The simple fact is that refs from WS's perspective require formatting and require to be blocks. So why would we be fucking around trying to pay attention to lint errors that complain about spans. Ignore them and move on, don't be dictated to by a lint error. Or tell them that they need to be ignored as refs need to allow for blocks, and don't be dictated to by lint errors. Give me strength. — billinghurst sDrewth

And I am now going to go back to my previous position of ignoring you in these forums. You do my nut in. Tail wagging the dog! From my perspective, there are more important things in this place than 95% of the stuff that you unceasingly complain about. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:37, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

The trouble here is that we're bound by the rules of HTML (because those are the rules the web browsers of our readers obey), and when we put block level elements inside inline elements we get weird formatting problems that directly impact presentation of works; completely irrespective of what the linter extension chooses to flag. It doesn't help, of course, that the linter is not just something that pops error messages in a log somewhere: that whole part of the stack also makes changes to HTML output to try to make sure the emitted HTML is valid. Very well-meaning, but it means the net effect of a given bit of wiki markup is often unpredictable and entirely inscrutable. We can of course debate how much weight, and attendant effort, should be expended on lint errors; but the fact is that the linter is trying to warn us about actual problems that come about from our use of wiki markup. The linter is a part of Mediawiki core, and these can change from "silent warning in a log somewhere" to "no longer supported, all your pages are broken now, so sorry (not sorry)" at any time. Or put another way, the linter errors are in effect the WMF / Mediawiki devs. telling us "You really shouldn't be doing this!". Completely ignoring them is not a winning strategy in the long term.

PS. But, ShakepeareFan00, for the block/inline and refs thing, the linked Phab/patch is the way to solve this issue, so until that gets merged there's really not much point expending energy on this. If there's no visible problem, we should just ignore the lint errors until the software gets fixed: before that it's a lose—lose proposition. --Xover (talk) 11:59, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

I am more prepared to accept this as a 'known' issue, and move on, linking the existing tickets to show that it was 'known', as expending effort on solving "un-fixable" problems (including contributors such as myself that implement inefficient and incompetent over complex and badly communicated solutions in response to technical limitations) isn't as others have said worth the effort. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:27, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Tables... (again)

Following on from my earlier concerns, I was attempting to remove yet more "fostered content" concerns:-

A Naval Biographical Dictionary/Appointments to Ships B 

However this seems to generate a missing end DIV concern. I can't find a missing end tag in the transcluded pages, after having edited them to resolve the "fostered content" concerns, and the missing DIV doesn't appear when lint checking the individual pages themselves.

However, checking the Main space pages indicated a LOT of missed closing DIV's. The DIV's seem to be used for controlling the margins. Wasn't this why dynamic layouts were provided?

The side issue concerning page numbering on page spanning tables is https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T232477,( which if adequately resolved should eleminate the hacks and workarounds that lead to the "overloaded" use of {{nop}} which I feel is the cause of a LOT of these fostered content Lint concerns.) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:54, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

I also raised https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T216350 in the past, but it doesn't seem to have generated a response.

see also https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T184021 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T162935 and https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T185221

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:04, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

 CommentIn tables, we should use {{nopt}} (span based) to lead the section rather than {{nop}} (div based). Otherwise I am not sure what point you are trying to make. — billinghurst sDrewth 10:39, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

What I am trying to say is

1. A co-ordinated effort to reduce the Lint error backlog (from technically adept users) would be appreciated. 2. If the relevant phabriactor tickets were (at some future date) dealt with the {{nopt}}, {{nop}} usages wouldn't necessarily be needed, as Mediawiki (and the relevant extensions.) would be able to cope directly with the SOL/EOL context directly. 3. Having 'fixed' DIV based layouts using inline margins, to "fix" table widths didn't seem like a good idea.. Now that TemplateStyles exist, wouldn't styling the table element directly be a better and less error prone way of doing this?

In some instances {{nopt}} isn't the whole picture as I've found using it (or the comment line directly, which is what I've done when transcribing table in new contributions) modifes the linespacing of the last entry of any table cell in the page header, This results in a slightly disrupted appearance on preview, which complicates but doesn't prevent proofreading.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:48, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

See - https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Page:A_Naval_Biographical_Dictionary.djvu/1366&oldid=9893395 for an example of a 'disrupted' end of row cell when using {{nopt}} vs {{nop}}. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:55, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

The Heart of Voltaire

Right now, this is what the title and decorative initial of "The Heart of Voltaire" look like. At first, though, I tried to come up with a way of putting the title next to the picture, something like so -- It seems like the only sensible thing to do with all that white space. @Inductiveload: and other CSS jugglers, do you have any ideas for an elegant thing to do? Levana Taylor (talk) 05:22, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

I see the ever-industrious typesetters of the mid-1800s are at it again! The solution you have hit upon is pretty good if you ask me. The main problem with it is that when the page shrinks, the div wraps onto the next line. {{flow under}} seems to work too, but differently. Short of isolating the initial "I" as a separate image by removing the background and using two images, one in the centre, one as the drop initial, I can't really think of a better way to deal with this with the tools we have. Because on mobile, the image can change size, anything which blocks out text using pixels as a measure is doomed to failure there. But it might just have to be.

In terms of the big white void, I can't really think of a workaround for that. Again, you could split the image, or define a default layout that looks right (I guess Layout 2). Inductiveload—talk/contribs 08:45, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

I have a thought. Maybe this: Separate the pyramid from the initial I (it would take a little Photoshop twiddling). Use the I as dropcap. Above that, use something like flex box to put the pyramid and title side by side if possible, with the pyramid always aligned to the left of the page, and the title either centered in the right column or else above? You’d just have to make sure that there was no space between the bottom of the pyramid and the top of the initial letter; if they didn’t line up perfectly horizontally, because of resizing separately, it wouldn’t be very noticeable.

Here and Here are a pair of images for test purposes; I’ll do better ones with Photoshop later. Levana Taylor (talk) 09:42, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

You could also take some artistic licence and separate the letter and the pyramid entirely, removing the background behind the I and trimming the shadow back a bit: File:Voltaire vignette (pyramid).png and File:Voltaire vignette initial I.png. Not sure how acceptable it is to do that, but it's one solution that "works" properly on the web, approximately how it was intended to work originally. Then you don't need to stress about getting the I in the right place.Inductiveload—talk/contribs 11:12, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

This is, I think, the best solution. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:38, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Withholding of Ukraine Security Assistance

Hello all- last week, I made my third Wikisource entry- the GAO Report on Withholding of Ukraine Security Assistance. The page is linked on English Wikipedia's 'Trump–Ukraine scandal' page. I would like to direct the community to this page to bring it up to standard with whatever Wikisource community standards I am not yet fully aware of so that we can provide a good resource for people interested in this issue both today and in the future. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:48, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: A couple of tips:

• Generally we don't want links to Wikipedia inside the texts we host, unless the original work also linked to Wikipedia - see WS:ANN for details.
• Headers and footers like "Page 2" and so forth should be placed in the header and footer so they don't get transcluded - see H:HEADER
• See H:NOTES for guidance on how to set up footnotes.

—Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:45, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: One more tip: use {{nop}} instead of <br /> to prevent paragraphs from joining up over a page break. I've tidied up the text, so all that remains is to proofread for fidelity to the original. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:20, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Template limits

I'm working on Index:United States Statutes at Large Volume 33 Part 2.djvu, and have developed a whole suite of templates to massively increase both rapidity and accuracy of proof-reading. And believe me, there is no practical way of doing this without templates. Don't ask me why I'm doing it (not sure I even know why I'm doing it!), but there are thousands and thousands of federal pension grants and increases in these pages, so of passingly important social history/military history/PhD/genealogical value to somebody, and I'm pretty sure the Library of Congress isn't going to cover these in its digitisation project because they are technically Private Acts.

However, with an average of 4 or 5 templates per page, and so far 270+ pages transcluded on United States Statutes at Large/Volume 33/Fifty-Eighth Congress/Private Acts of the Second Session, we have inevitably smashed through MW's Template limits. Ahah, I hear you say - easy! Once it's all proofed, ask AWB to subst: everything and the problem goes away. This is completely true, and the templates have even been deliberately written to respond correctly to this, but...

In its current "semi-structured" state, the data set is conceivably only a step away from being machine-readable/searchable (each pension has at least the following fields: date=, grantee=, quality=, rate=, gender=), whereas once everything is subst:ed, it just goes back to being in a sense "dumb" data again. I know this is not WS's mission, but does anyone have any ideas about who might want to host such data? Is it WikiData's bailiwick? Is there a potential SMW hoster out there somewhere? It would be such a shame to lose all the (accidentally) carefully applied data structure which should be of value to someone...CharlesSpencer (talk) 14:29, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

@CharlesSpencer: You could try asking over on Wikidata where Wikimedia's datagluttons tend to hang out. I'm not entirely sure this will fit their approach, but they'll be best placed to say something to that. I very much agree that if we've created structured data through manual effort, we should try very hard to preserve that in some fashion, but I don't really see how we could do that sanely on enWS. --Xover (talk) 14:39, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks @Xover: - message duly ported to Wikidata! CharlesSpencer (talk) 15:00, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Much of the issue is due to all the #if: and #ifeq: (see w:Wikipedia:Post-expand include size). Try transcluding to smaller parts, or look to see if someone can write in Lua as that will take out parts of that. Pulling data from WD may help, though there is still lots of decision-making there. — billinghurst sDrewth 05:16, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Preferred approach for Marginal Section Headings and Chapter contents?

New to Wikisource (but have worked on other wikis)

Question 1: The book I am working on places section headings in the outside margin (repeated on subsequent pages if the section continues)... one solution I see but haven't tested is to use dynamic layouts and code them in with 4 CSS classes (one for the initial appearance (left or right page), one for repeated occurrences (left and right pages) so that they can be set to display:none). Alternatively, I can achieve something close with wikitext and templates such as outside or sidenote: example ==={{outside RL|''section heading text''|size=0.75em|height=1}}===, or a better result with ==={{right sidenote|''section heading text''|display:inline-block;font-size:0.75em;line-height:1.1em;padding-top:0.5em}}===

Is there a preferred approach or have I overlooked something in the style guide and/or available templates?

Question 2: The first page of each chapter has a list of the chapter's sections (although not always verbatim to the headings that appear in the margins) - a sort of mini-TOC, or in TEI (text encoding initiative) nomenclature would be probably labelled "arguments"... Should these just be rendered as text or is there a template/code for this?

An example of the text showing both the Contents and a section heading is here Page:Abstract_of_the_evidence_for_the_abolition_of_the_slave-trade_1791.djvu/31

Thanks RT764 (talk)

1. Sidenotes are not easy for us, and honestly drive some of us "spare", as they are truly an artefact of the book as typeset at the time. There are numerous examples of them around the place, and rendering them onto mobile screens and wide monitors reliably is problematic. Maybe start with Help:Sidenotes, and there are a number of templates available, and often our answers are case by case due to each work's peculiarity.
2. For those chapter linear ToC, like that generally we would say keep it simple and utilise {{hanging indent}} though it does not inherit parent formatting. We don't tend to put anchors into them, though if it makes sense for the work, then we have {{anchor+}} for the targets, and wikilink naturally. Some of those peripheral aspects like extra navigation can wait to the end, or you might do a chapter and look to transclude to see how it looks, and what it needs. — billinghurst sDrewth 21:57, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Improving performance... Index:Chronological Table and Index of the Statutes.djvu and Chronological_Table_and_Index_of_the_Statutes/Chronological_Table sub-pages...

A while back I reworked these to enable them to be subst more cleanly, and updated them to use template styles in the header.

Any chance someone technically adet use something like AWB to do a mass subst of uses, because it would greatly improve performance in respect of the sub pages of: Chronological_Table_and_Index_of_the_Statutes/Chronological_Table.

I could do it manually, but the replacement could easily be automated, and thus less error prone.

It's currently split up because of the sheer number of template calls, blew out the transclusion limits when it was made. As templatestyles need only be called ONCE per page, it should be possible to reduce it to five or six template calls per page instead of the one or more call per row currently.

When I did a similar change to the underlying pages here Short Titles Act 1896/First Schedule, I was able to bring the WHOLE first schedule back onto a single page, which is quite an impressive performance improvement.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:47, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

I cannot understand what you are asking. If you want help, you need to be clear. Mpaa (talk) 21:14, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Before you mass-subst all these, wouldn't it make sense to take advantage of the fact that the very use of the templates carries semantic content? For example, {{Statute table/chapter}} is

|-
|{{ts|padding-left:0.25em;padding-right:0.25em;}}{{!}}{{gap|1em}}{{{Override Chapter|c. {{{Chapter Num}}}.}}} {{{Alternate|{{{Chapter Name|}}}}}} 
|{{{Topic| }}} 
|{{{Repeal| }}}

By defining a row style with :nth-child() formatting as needed, you can simplify to only, say,

|- class="__st_chapter"
| content A
| content B
| content C

and define all styling in the CSS (which is what CSS is for, style is the middle S). By subst'ing with the current raw table markup and inline CSS, you lose all the semantic information about which row means what, and the resulting inline CSS will be a real pain to convert to "classy" CSS after the fact. Whereas now you have a template, you can do it all in the template, and then subst.

And please document the CSS. CSS comments look like this /* comment */. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 12:32, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks.. Documentation isn't my strong point... but I've tried.. and updated the templates as you suggested.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:19, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

If there was a way to import a Tempaltestyle into a table directly, I think even more improvements could be made... ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:53, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Certainly will be much simpler wikicode after subst. I am unclear as to what you mean by "import a Templatestyle into a table directly". You just invoke the CSS page as you do in Template:Statute table/header. Doing in that the header of the Page: pages is a little clunky, but, as you know, doing it automatically per-index without adding code relies on phab:T226275 finding a suitable resolution. Or do you mean place the templatestyle tag within the table content? Because that actually does work, AFAICT. No idea if it's a good idea though. TS calls are de-duplicated, so I imagine it should be fine, but I kind of doubt it's a tested configuration. Note, the CSS in inlined up front, so you can't have the CSS apply only after a certain point. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 20:05, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

I meant having something in the table syntax for wikitext markup that does what TemplateStyles (or {{table class/import}} does albiet on a per table basis... I can of course set id= on the table and use that id as a suitable selector if I want to classes to a specfic table... ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:30, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

The inlined upfront, is why I'd like to see the phab ticket you mention resovled (2021 Tech wishlist maybe?) , and agree on a naming convention so styles don't conflict between imported stylesheets (this was partly why I had prefixed stuff with __ ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:30, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

You mean "scope" the CSS to only apply to a certain table? There is such a thing as scoped CSS, but TS would have to have a scoped=1 parameter or something so it can inject it inline as need, and not de-duplicate, and there would probably be many other practicalities. I think just a CSS ID or class selector will work for all likely cases.

As far as naming conventions go, as I said before, I think a prefix (e.g. of "_") is a good idea to avoid clashing with built-in Mediawiki classes and to make it obvious it's a TS class. Namespacing work/domain-wise with "_prefix_" based on work is probably a good idea too, if for no other reason than making it easy to search for without popping up hundreds of difference instances of generically-named "_table" classes. Cross-work conflicts are unlikely, as the pages would not usually get transcluded together, but it would a frustrating bug to find if you did encounter it.

Perhaps reserve "__" for "global" classes, so if you see it you know it's not a work-specific style, though I still feel that global classes should be limited.

One other issue with "_" is that it's a bit tricky to search for, but if you do insource:/_classname/, it works.Inductiveload—talk/contribs 10:22, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm considering if multi-line repeal- entries should be split? for semantics reasons.. This would also allow for the extensive use of {{gap}} to be reduced.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:03, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

I'd say whatever makes the Wikitext most obvious and tractable for editing. Your just-added {{statute table/repeal-follow}} seems to fit that bill.

WRT to "performance", the post-expand include size of these pages currently looks you can include page 30 of that document something like 800 times before the limit is reached (avoiding thousands of bits of repeated inline CSS is probably to thank for that). I would suggest that, regardless of technical ability to do so, you do not transclude as one leviathan table, not because of "performance", but because a page that long will be annoying to navigate. Remember, originally, it was paginated as pages, not as 30 metre-long scroll.

I also suggest that you not subst this, as you will regret it if you later find you want to tweak the Wikitext of every row somehow. It doesn't look like you will ben needing to hack around the limit anyway. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 16:04, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

I have other reasons for NOT making this one long scroll, Organisaing it by Mornachs and Regenal years seemed to be how other related publications did it. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:07, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

In relation to the original request.. Given the improvements made to the underlying templates a subst isn't now needed.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:07, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Why does templating something generate an error?

Two examples:

:<div style="text-align:left; margin-left:1em">allotments in right of glebe, on inclosure, leasing of allotments, &c.</div>

:{{left|allotments in right of glebe, on inclosure, leasing of allotments, &c.|1em}}

The first example works perfectly, the second which SHOULD be generating the exact same code doesn't seem to, and causes a LintEror when used at the start of the body of a Page: Consistency of behaviour would be nice. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:34, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

By comparison I created {{Left-shift}}, effectively removing the line feed at the end of {{left}}, and the LintError went away.. Mediawiki should be robust enough not to rely on contributors having to recall whitespace minutiae. The cause of the LintError generation in the latter example above is an already reported issue. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:54, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Does someone have a more elegant solution, that doesn't rely on creating groups of templates, to work around "known issues"?

The "known issue" being (T134469)

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:54, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

These aren't entirely identical. the template has a line break in it, which will not play well with the colon as a margin setting device. Any any case, using a colon before a <div> is poor syntax. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:44, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

That's partly why I asked if there was a better way to do this. (I'm trying to shift some entries on a specfic page), Is there a way to do that shift directly in markup, avoiding the need for a templated shift? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:32, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Noooo... you asked why one worked and the other did something different. If you identified the page, I could offer suggestions. There shouldn't be any reason to use a margin shift and a colon on the same section of text. --EncycloPetey (talk) 02:02, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Page:Chronological_Table_and_Index_of_the_Statutes.djvu/402. which is using {{ws_diclist}}. I have a feeling a rethink of the nesting used in this work and the relevant template might be needed. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:41, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Page:Hill's manual of social and business forms.djvu/108

Perhaps someone here can come up with a way of doing this in a way that doesn't involve one template call for each definition (that actually works properly), instead of the approach here, which clearly does not work as intended, as evidenced here.

What is supposed to occur is that the definition list gets flattened, currently this is done using floats which is not ideal. Doing it as inline, results in there being no line-feeds and one large unformatted block which is as bad as no formatting at all.

I've tried to get this working in a sensible way and not got it to do so, perhaps someone else can?

It is increasingly "offensive" to find that well-intentioned approaches are running up against limitations in Mediawiki and CSS due to their apparent inability to cope with certain use cases. As I have said REPEATEDLY, expecting normal contributors to know the minutiae of under-documented internals in order to implement what should be relatively simple templates and moderate CSS is unacceptable. I do not appreciate having to essentially abandon templates (and change a LOT of invocations to code I know isn't that efficent) because Mediawiki or CSS can't apparently cope. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:58, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

This page is an excellent example of when using poem tags is a good idea. Simply use a {{sc}} template for each lead term and then follow it with the definition. Do each entry on a different line, start and finish the page with poem tags, and it's all done without any need for extra arcane templating. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 02:32, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Whilst that clearly works, it's going backwards in terms of performance.. I eventually solved the layout issue by updating the stylesheet using a ::before rule for DT elements (that creates a blank block for what would otherwise be an inline element, but that seems like a kludge that SHOULD not be necessary. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:03, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

So, the KISS principle is not applied, all for the sake of getting a page onto someone's screen a few pico-seconds quicker? You asked for a solution that flattens the list, without using line-feeds or floats. This, I provided. I have no idea whether your supposed solution works as I cannot see any difference on the page between this morning, when I responded, and now. The page continues to have a proofreading error on every line, that cannot be fixed short of disposing of your (poorly explained) templates and strange initial punctuation on each line and then implementing a simple solution.

In terms of your comments about "offense", what is actually becoming offensive is tripping over these snide asides almost anywhere across the Wikisource namespace, including in edit summaries. There is no perfect solution to every situation out there. There never will be. Live with it and deal with it as best you can. Also, you complaining about poor documentation is somewhat hypocritical given the dearth of comments in your template code, and incomplete documentation subpages. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 09:33, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

The strange punctuation is definition list syntax, which when used for something that is a semantically "definition list" should have been an obvious use case. I'll certainly consider going back to the approach you suggested because apparently there are not only limits in Mediawiki, but in the ability and expertise of contributors to maintain certain solutions (for various technical reasons). ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:56, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

If you think the documentation pages are lacking, some hints on where there could be expanded would be appreciated, as I've tried recently to update some of it (and add some more comments in the CSS stylesheets, I've created.) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:56, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

WRT to "performance": what metric are you even targeting? Pages are cached on save, so render times are generally negligible for readers, since they only need to be rendered once every now and again when changing templates and if it gets evicted from the cache. The Wikimedia servers aren't particularly overstressed AFAIK and the only technical "performance" limit you might run into is the template arg length, template depth or Lua memory usage. As long as the page renders, performance isn't something you need to be overly stressed about. If you want to be taken seriously when "optimising" anything in life, you should have some metric to show that it's 1) an issue and 2) you have a way to show a proposed remedy helps. You might also consider the size of the inline HTML/CSS as a metric, but that's just text so it's pretty small in general (100s of kB, maybe a few MB for the bigger works). Premature optimisation is famously the root of all evil.

WRT to "but that seems like a kludge that SHOULD not be necessary.", that seems like a ^{[citation needed]} moment. How exactly do you think this should be working, and how will you justify to the W3C committee or Mediawiki maintainers that your use case (transcribing a book's physical formatting from 1881 into HTML via Wikitext with some unspecified limit on "performance") merits the associated technical debt and should be considered when drafting web standards? It seems to me that TemplateStyles and CSS has almost entirely solved the whole issue very neatly (you're actually mostly lucky dt/dl is a good semantic fit and Wikitext has a convenient markup for it). Who says Wikicode and CSS has to "cope" with what you/we want it to do? Working with what you have is just reality. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 11:12, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Having had a previous transcription effort blow out the template transclusion limit due to a lot of effectively repetitive calls, I was trying to minimise repeated use of a repetitious template call, 26*2 calls over an entire set of pages is going to be considerably lower workload than say 500 or more by doing a call to {{smallcaps}} on each new definition. On transcluding, TemplateStyles code is de-duplicated anyway isn't it?

Aside: reducing repetitive calls was partly why the Stylesheets of {{Table class}} were developed. BTW. I might need some assistance expanding the documentation.}}

Maxim: Don't make "opinion" calls when writing comments. If something really isn't necessary other better coders will tell you so, and why. Document what you did, why and leave it at that.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:26, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm based on recent behaviour probably not the best person to comment on web standards, but the technical concern I had was that there should be cleaner way of forcing a new-line for a DT element, whilst maintaing the "inline" behaviour needed for the flat-line appearance. Having a force-newline/force break param (does that actually exist and I've missed it in the documentation?) would in this instance be useful to explicitly state to a browser or web client that was the desired rendering approach. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:32, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Right, but how exactly do you think it should work? What do you want to write in the editor and what do you want to see pop out? And when you say "force-newline/force break param", do you mean in Wikitext, HTML or CSS?

Wikitext is already throwing you a bone with mapping ; and : to dt and dd but the line-breaks and the requirement for ; to occur at the line start is always going to be a "thing" (and it's a "thing" in HTML in general: e.g. here):

; Term
: Definition

gives

<dl>
<dt>Term</dt><!-- look ma, a line break, this is why there's a space after your em-dash -->
<dd>Definition</dd>
</dl>

whereas what you want is this:

<dl>
<dt>Term</dt><dd>Definition</dd>
</dl>

I'm pretty sure you're just out of luck here - I can't imagine any way to indicate to Mediawiki that a certain bit of wikitext must have render out to collapsed whitespacing which wouldn't be overly complex to implement or use. Perhaps the best way is simply a per-line template and defer to TS CSS. Then you only have 'n' template calls and the inline content is "short":

<span class="__hillforms_term">{{{1}}}</span>—<span class="__hillforms_def">{{{2}}}<span>

Maybe add li or dt/dd as you see fit. Maybe you hit the limit due to the many many templates, in which case, split the index. Annoying, but que sera sera. Yes, sad that Mediawiki's magic ; didn't quite cut it this time, but this is far from what it was designed for. A quick experiment indicates that 1000 calls of a template like the above result in: Post-expand include size: 120,000/2,097,152 bytes, so you can fit somewhere around 15k template calls like that on a page before you surpass the template limits. Respect for peoples scrolling fingers should prevent you considering a 15k line page in the first place.)

WRT to documentation: "TODO: This model isn't ideal." is not a helpful comment if you're expecting someone non-telepathic to help you. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 12:23, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Inductiveload—talk/contribs 12:23, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Let's move the extended discussion to the talk page of the relevant Template? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:05, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but please take some time to ponder before creating a new template. Creating a template means to expose an API to users and commit maintainers to cope with it from now on. To "undo" a template can be very tricky and require a lot of effort. Also, you are not new in proposing deletion of your own templates, as being too complex etc.. Mpaa (talk) 21:45, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

ditto inside dotted TOC

On this page, it looks like {{ditto}} doesn’t work quite right inside {{Dotted TOC line}} (too far to the left}. Can anyone figure out why that is? Levana Taylor (talk) 02:17, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

@Levana Taylor: You poor thing. You seem to have bad luck with CSS issues! {{Dotted TOC line}} sets CSS attribute text-indent to 1em unless overridden by hi. {{ditto}} does not cope well with text-indent set to anything other than 0. You could either follow the rather clunky advice here and add the <span> suggested; or set hi=0 on the lines affected. 114.78.171.144 07:17, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Template:Ditto/testcases#Testing_sandbox_version, the fix suggested in the documentation doesn't appear to work when directly implemented as patch to the template. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:58, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps someone needs to rethink the approach used by both templates? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:01, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Your sandbox has tow issues: one was a mismatched brace {{{embed|}}, and the other was the testcases had the embed parameter set on the outer {{hi}} template, not on the inner {{ditto}} template. Seems to works now. The question now is: are there any cases where setting text-indent:0 on the ditto is wrong (and therefore the embed parameter should be optional), or should it just be always set by the ditto template on its outer span (along with position:relative, etc)? Inductiveload—talk/contribs 10:17, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

According the CSS spec itself, text-indent:0 is the correct approach for display:inline-block element inside an indented block. Testcases and a quick survey of usages indicate it isn't breaking anything, and Levana's issue is fixed too. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 13:08, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Thank you for fixing {{ditto}} and for doing the due diligence on why the fix is correct. 114.78.171.144 14:17, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Maxim: "It's always a minor typo or mis-syntax if you think something is really broken!" I think it's time I took a break. I seem to be making too many mistakes of this type, which tragically leads to the kind of angry ranting (see many previous instances in the archives and edit summaries) that is not conducive to effective coding or documentation. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:58, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

@Levana Taylor: Please note a small but important change to Page:Once a Week…/10 remains. For correct operation of {{ditto}} the repeated/hidden text fragment must be both identical and followed in each case by identical white space. i.e. the matching context should not change within any group of lines where the alignment effect is desired. 114.78.171.144 14:17, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, noted. Thanks to everyone for working on this. Levana Taylor (talk) 14:51, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Misbehaving footnote

Esme Shepherd (talk) 19:38, 6 February 2020 (UTC) I have a footnote over three pages in Traits and Trials.pdf/pages 175-177 (book pages 169-171). These are enclosed by: page 175 <ref name=p169> </ref> page 176 <ref follow=p169> </ref> page 177 <ref follow=p169> </ref> However, on pages 176 and 177, the footnote text does not appear, only the legend ⧼cite_references_no_link⧽ I have done this many times before and, if I have made a mistake here, I can't see it. I have transcluded the whole story and the footnote does appear correctly at the end in all its portions. So that is okay, but these pages still need validation. Can you resolve this mystery for me?

You've done nothing wrong. It's a change in the software that wasn't backed out correctly. See WS:S#New error messages for the attribute “follow” for more details. It will be resolved. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 20:06, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Esme Shepherd (talk) 22:18, 6 February 2020 (UTC) Thank you. Glad I have nothing more to do!

Updating obsolete Greek characters

In Newes from the Dead, I am trying to find a balance between updating character glyphs, and preserving original spelling. Per our common practice, I am updating ſ to s, but preserving characters like æ, œ, and &. I have also opted to preserve spelling features such as q́ꝫ (que) and (ος)—to me, these appear to be intrinsic spelling features, like preserving æ rather than expanding to ae.

However, there is a Greek word on page 8, spelled as follows: ὑςερόϖοτμον. This features two obsolete character choices: the use of ς mid-word instead of σ, and the use of ϖ instead of π. I do not know enough about these characters to determine what side of the balance these characters should fall on. Given the guidelines I have outlined above, should this word be transcribed per the original, or updated to ὑσερόποτμον? (Or perhaps, should only one of the characters be updated?) —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:40, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the "pomega" (I think ϖ/π is basically equivalent to ſ/s, but I'm not sure), but that sigma actually is probably a Stigma, not a final-sigma, which makes the word υστερόποτμος, which makes some sense in the context of the work: supposed dead. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 13:54, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Fantastic, thank you! I have updated the page to use the stigma ὑϛερόϖοτμον. I hope someone is able to answer regarding ϖ vs π, especially since the word also appears in the subpage title. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:15, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Having done a bit more research, it looks like ϖ is the same type of alternate-glyph as ϐ, ϑ, and ϕ (cf. β, θ, and φ), so I will update it to π unless someone gives me a very good reason to do otherwise. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:23, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

 Comment I wouldn't have seen that we would necessarily have modernised the characters along the lines of long-ess to ess. The long-ess/ess conversion is about readability for our works, whereas the representation of the old Greek will be like like like like "all Greek to us" for many, so showing it "as is" is probably okay especially to the literal reader. I can see some value for someone doing a literal search for the characters, both for and against this case. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:42, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

From what I could tell, ϖ/π is less like ſ/s, and more like ɑ/a. Using ɑ in ɑ trɑnscription is not showing it "ɑs is" even if the letter ɑppeɑrs more like ɑ in the scɑn. The character ɑ exists for symbolic use, whereɑs the chɑrɑcter for the letter itself is a. It appears that the same is true of ϖ. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:28, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Content model change - User:ShakespeareFan00/Sandbox/styles.css

Can this be changed from "CSS" to "Sanitized CSS" so I can use it for testing purposes? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:15, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Template:Uksi/doc

Whilst I understand some people aren't necessarily willing to talk to me right now given recent events, I wanted to ask if the documentation here is comprehensive enough. I'm slowly trying to document the various varaints of the template family in once place. I also added some comments to the core template (and the associated stylesheet), to try and explain what the code and styles are either doing or attempting.

If on the other hand certain contributors feel that replacing this wholesale with much more basic direct formatting templates directly in indviidual Page:'s would be easier for them to understand, then the loss of standardisation is perhaps justified. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:41, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: It generally looks nice. But for me, and this may just be me, I feel I need some examples to understand what's going on. Maybe a scan image for reference, and a two-column table showing the wikimarkup and the rendered output? Or maybe just a couple boxes showing the rendered output? Something that lets me visualise what the problem is that the template is trying to solve, and how it solves it. Then again, for someone that works often with this kind of text (and thus would be most likely to use the template) it may be blindingly obvious and the examples just needless clutter.

PS. I am very glad to see templates—even special case and per-work templates—get some love in the documentation department. It makes it sooo much easier for those who try to use them, and for anyone trying to maintain them later. We could probably all take this opportunity to remind ourselves that we can do better at documentation (I know I certainly can). :) --Xover (talk) 13:28, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Page:Food and cookery for the sick and convalescent.djvu/17

Am I just being completely blind in my thinking here?

A locally set inline style with {{ts}} seems to be overriden by an inline one that's by an imported style-sheet.

I'm seriously considering giving up contributing long-term, because I don't seem to know enough to do it with it being completely inept. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:44, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: Now that page and the next at least display correctly separately. I haven't tried transcluding them together, of course. Does that help? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:06, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

That solved the issue for this specific example. What I was trying to do was to come up a way of doing a TOC like this using a simple table, and a stylesheet. I'd still like to understand why my attempts didn't render quite the way I thought they logcally should. (Stylesheet for the general case) and local or inline override for the header rows.). If imported styles are going to interact with inline ones in ways that aren't expected, then I'd ideally like to know where those interactions are likely to occur, so the relevant stylseheets can be designed accordingly. ( I already had to change the design of one stylseheet because certain rules interacted unexpectedly.). I also don't want to continually waste my (or other contributors) time trying to implement approaches, that seem to be incompatible with Mediawiki, other templates or as I'm increasingly finding the views and expertise of other long-standing contributors.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:59, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

I have had trouble with conflicting CSS in the past as well and I tried !important rules that just got ignored by the software. :/ —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:07, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

The question asked perhaps should have been, "In what order styles from are styles, applied? and how is the priority of conflicting rules applied?" , I have nasty feeling it might be browser-specific in terms of conflicting rules within an indvidual stylesheet, or as in the above example differing rules being applied inline to a parent, compared to a specfic rule on a child.. Perhaps someone should look into this more closely? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:17, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

(Aside) Is there something like jsfiddle in the Wikimedia sphere? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:17, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

The rule of thumb for CSS selectors is that specificity wins: a selector targeting a specific class will get overridden by a selector targeting an element with a class (specifying both the element name and the class makes it more specific). Inline styles (in the |style= attribute on an element override styles given in a stylesheet. !important should really not be used, but is, sadly, sometimes necessary in practice to get things to work (but try really hard to avoid them).

For Wikimedia wikis, the sources of styles I can think of are the basic styles of MediaWiki itself; the active skin (e.g. Vector); the project's Common.css; the individual user's common.css and skin.js; TemplateStyles; and styles set by JavaScript from either the project's Common.js, Gadgets, or user's common.js or skin.js; the user's browser's default stylesheet (which may be modifiable through preferences dialogs and such in some power-user browsers); and the user's browser's user stylesheet if set.

TemplateStyles will have a pretty high specificity because the extension does some magic to scope its effects to just the page content area (i.e. so it won't modify the toolbar or other site chrome). The style stuff on tables should have precedence essentially the same as an inline style attribute (I believe the parser transforms that wikisyntax to a HTML style attribute). Styles set from JavaScript will be essentially impossible to override from CSS, because they will typically be applied after CSS and override CSS styles unconditionally.

In the specific example here, without digging into it, I would also have expected your approach to work (the inline style provided by {{ts}} should have overridden styles from a stylesheet). However, provided I'm looking at the correct old revision, you're setting the style on the table row (tr), but the skin has a rule that targets the table cell (td). In other words, your inline style provides the default for inheritance, but the skin sets it directly. In addition, both "Chapter" and "Page" are the widest item in their column—i.e. the width of the column is determined by the width of the respective word—and so even if these were centered, the following cells in those columns will be aligned with the header's right edge, which looks like the whole column is right-aligned.

I can't dig in any detail right now, and I may have misunderstood depending on which revision of the page you referred to initially, so I don't want to go wading in there making changes. But hopefully something above may help you figure out the problem. --Xover (talk) 10:06, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Can you copy this explanation to the Stylesheets talk page? Template talk:Table class/toc.css and we can continue the technical discussion on how to resolve it there? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:35, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Error in Index namespace title

How can I move this index from Index:A Prisoner of the Khalifa.djvu to Index:A Prisoner of the Khaleefa.djvu and have the pages align? — Ineuw (talk) 20:31, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

I have found it helpful to create a dummy page Page:A Prisoner of the Khalifa.djvu, and then move it with the "also move subpages" option enabled, and then delete the dummy page afterwards. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 20:35, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

(I also have found it helpful to ignore typos in File and Index page titles, because it doesn't really affect the final product. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 20:41, 10 February 2020 (UTC))

@Beleg Tâl:Thanks for the advice ths process is unclear to me. Followed your recommendation and I got the error message:

The page could not be moved, for the following reason: 
"Book page" content is not allowed on page Index:A Prisoner of the Khaleefa.djvu in slot "main"

I think the reason is that the file in Commons is called File:A Prisoner of the Khalifa.djvu and the name of the Index page has to correspond to it. So if you want to move our Index page, you need to move the Commons file first. I agree with Beleg Tâl that it is not necessary, the name of the Index page is insignificant. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:33, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: Thanks for the comments but I must learn the process. The commons category and book title has been changed and 100 pages were moved which is the limit. After this I am stuck. Also the moved pages are not in sequence. Already created the Index page. These are the questions that's keeping me awake at night. Could you please help me through this please? — Ineuw (talk) 04:55, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Just recreate the forged Page:....djvu page and move it and the next 100 subpages. Rinse, repeat until complete. The pages are in a sequence, it is just not numerically ordered.

Moving it without a good reason is just a dumb reason, and this is what we were saying. The order of moving doesn't matter BUT it won't all be functional until it is all aligned. In the end the Index: / Page: / File: all need to align in their names, and then the transclusions need to be fixed and each of those is just an opportunity to create errors, and to have to run numerous checks for no designated value. So, we suggest not to move them without a good reason. — billinghurst sDrewth 07:10, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

NB! You now have ~100 redirects as subpages of that dummy page. I have no idea what will happen if you try to move the dummy page while those exist: my worry would be that you could end up in a situation where the redirect pages (which are new pages without edit history that were created by the first move) are moved over and overwriting the real pages (where all the content and edit history are). There are lots of reasons why that shouldn't happen, but I can imagine some circumstances where it would so I would recommend being very careful about that. Since the goal is to move everything anyway, I would recommend deleting those redirects before trying to move the next batch. --Xover (talk) 07:23, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Dumb reason or not, I must learn and know what happens for numerous reasons. In any case corrected the file name on the commons and made the move for the first one hundred pages and so far it seems good. The loss was negligible and they are easily recreated. My next concern is to deal with the Page:A Prisoner of the Khaleefa.djvu file. Thanks for everyone's advise, warnings and concerns. — Ineuw (talk) 14:28, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: My last question is about the main namespace title. Internally I used A Prisoner of the Khaleefa but the full title is A prisoner of the khaleefa. Twelve years captivity at Omdurman (1899). This is how the title is written everywhere except in the printed book where the whole title is in uppercase which provides no clue. Can you please advise. Thanks. — Ineuw (talk) 19:23, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Pick one and redirect from the other. I generally try to utilise the most unambiguous and how it most common referred (and these can be different). I doubt that the year is in the title. Here I doubt I think I would have gone for the shorter title as the primary for PAGENAME, and used the title and subtitle in the title parameter. (said without better exploring) — billinghurst sDrewth 11:23, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I will look into the possibility of incorporating the long name into the SUBPAGENAME. — Ineuw (talk)

Page:The Heimskringla; or, Chronicle of the Kings of Norway Vol 1.djvu/240 - Second view sought.

As the sidenotes here are in effect chapter headings, is the approach here worth continuing with, given that setting up a 'forced' layout is actively discouraged for browser compatibility issues? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:35, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

What to do about this printer's error?

On this page, the printer printed a line which had already been printed in the main text (and clearly belongs there) in between two of the footnotes. I tried to address this using the {{annotation}} template, but I'm not sure that's the way to do it -- and even if it is, I think I did it incorrectly. Could I get some more expert eyes on this one? -Pete (talk) 22:03, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

I would comment it out using <!-- --> comment tags. That way the validator can see it, but it doesn't get reproduced in the text. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 22:09, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. To my eyes it's clearly an error, and there's no need to reproduce it for the reader...but I know that view can sometimes be out of step, so I wanted to make sure. Thanks for the guidance. -Pete (talk) 23:02, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Pete, I would <noinclude>'d it and either {{SIC}}'d or left a rem'd comment. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:04, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. I there are many times when it's totally valid to not reproduce exactly what was published on the page and this is a good one. An HTML comment is a good way to make sure that this is recorded for the benefit of editors rather than readers. I also downloaded it as a PDF and the HTML comment is removed entirely. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:16, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Index:Railway Accident Investigation Report on Amagasaki derailment-English version.pdf

I am recently trying to edit Index:Railway Accident Investigation Report on Amagasaki derailment-English version.pdf. However, the source file (.pdf) also included some photos. How should these photos be dealt? Many thanks.廣九直通車 (talk) 07:49, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Also somehow the OCR is not working.廣九直通車 (talk) 12:21, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

@廣九直通車: Great points. Re: the photographs, are you sure that they have a free license? If so, they should be inserted into the text. Probably the fastest way to get copies of the photos and insert them would be to go to the file at Commons, makes sure that you have CropTool activated, and extract individual files. As for the OCR, we have some sitewide problems with the default OCR. You can use alternatives like Tesseract (go to User:廣九直通車/common.js and insert "mw.loader.load( '//wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=User:Putnik/TesseractOCR.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript' )") or Google OCR instead. I hope that's not too much info dumped on you all at once. Let me know if you need more help. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 12:54, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

@Koavf:Yeah, I am pretty sure that the source scan is free (Template:PD-JapanGov:(R)ulings and judgments made by government agencies in proceedings of a quasi-judicial nature, and as the official translation). But the source scan does not come with the text layer. Anyways, I'll try with your suggestions, thanks.廣九直通車 (talk) 04:05, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Seems that the Google OCR works well with this document, and it is also quite fast, so I recommend it. If you had some problems, I can provide the OCR text there too. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 11:01, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

• @Jan.Kamenicek, @Koavf:OK, now met with another problem:I just found the translated source scan is missing with some parts (I originally thought the excerpt means omitting some images). Should I note down "excerpt" in the title, or what should I do? The author has Japanese original text, but is seriously distorted. —unsigned comment by 廣九直通車 (talk) .

  @廣九直通車: First off, you need to sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) for {{ping}} to work. Secondly, if I understand you correctly, are you saying that the PDF is missing pages? And furthermore, do you have the missing parts somewhere? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 13:43, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

  Yeah, it seems that the official translator just missed off some parts of the original report in Japanese.廣九直通車 (talk) 03:34, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

  You can transcribe the official translation and make a note that some parts are missing. You can also make an annotated version were you would add the missing parts (after translating them to English). Or you can make a Wikisource translated version with your own translation of the whole document. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 08:19, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

• OK, I give up. I can't translate the remaining Japanese into English, and perhaps it will be better if was the Japanese version get imported in Japanese Wikisource. Perhaps this try is better to be an exercise on dealing PDF texts.廣九直通車 (talk) 11:38, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Page number in red

On The Poems of Sappho/Chapter 4, why is the page number for page 136 and several other pages showing in red? That's supposed to indicate the page hasn't been created, but when the page exists (as it does in this case) the page number should be displayed in blue. Neither null edits nor hard purges have any effect on this.

The only common factor seems to be that each affected page opens with red-linked text. Is the red link from the page text being incorrectly passed to the display of the page number? --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:14, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Yep, it is a weird artefact of the page numbering. If you put a leading {{nop}} it disappears. I usually just create the link (author page) and it goes away. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:57, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Creating the Author pages is a bit of a tricky issue for this bibliography. The first author on p136 is Louis Poinsinet de Sivry, who is an 18th-century French classicist. I do not know whether any English translations of his works exist, but it is unlikely that an English translation of the specific work cited would exist because the work is a French translation form the Greek, and who would translate a French translation of a Greek original? When I can find a native language Wikisource Author page, I link to that if one does not exist here. Failing that, I look for an English Wikipedia article. But Louis Poinsinet de Sivry does not have a page on the French Wikisource, nor on the English nor French Wikipedia. The only pages I find at Wikidata are on the German and Russian Wikipedias, neither of which would be helpful as a link. I may just de-link him. --EncycloPetey (talk) 00:02, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

┌──────┘
Capturing the html from the four page change overs (135, 136, 137, 138)—and not making any determination.

• [135] which is continuing text

... translated into&#32;<span><span class="pagenum ws-pagenum" id="135" data-page-number="135" title="Page:The_Poems_of_Sappho_(1924).djvu/141">&#8203;</span></span>English Verse; with Notes explanatory and poetical. To which are added the Odes, Fragments, and Epigrams of Sappho. London, 1735. 8vo. Sappho, pp. 247–279.
</p>

• [136] where a {{nop}} (div) has been forced prior to the text

<div></div>
&#32;<span><span class="pagenum ws-pagenum" id="136" data-page-number="136" title="Page:The_Poems_of_Sappho_(1924).djvu/142">&#8203;</span></span><div></div>
<p><a href="/w/index.php?title=Author:Louis_Poinsinet_de_Sivry&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="Author:Louis Poinsinet de Sivry (page does not exist)"><span style="font-variant:small-caps">Sivry, Poinsinet de</span></a>. Anacréon, Sapho, etc., traduits en vers Francais. Poésies de Sapho de Mytilene, pp. viii, 24. Nancy, 1758. 8vo.
</p>

• [137] where the [ of a redlink abuts the top of body text

<div></div>
<p>&#32;<span><span class="pagenum ws-pagenum" id="137" data-page-number="137" title="Page:The_Poems_of_Sappho_(1924).djvu/143">&#8203;</span></span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Author:J.J._Mouteonnett-Clairfons&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="Author:J.J. Mouteonnett-Clairfons (page does not exist)"><span style="font-variant:small-caps">Moutonnet-Clarifons</span>, J. J.</a> Anacréon, Sapho [pp. 95-118], Bion, et Moschus, traduction nouvelle en Prose. Paphos and Paris, 1773. 4to. (In 1780 another edition was issued, with illustrations by Eisen.)
</p>

• 138 use of which is span

<div></div>
<p>&#32;<span><span class="pagenum ws-pagenum" id="132" data-page-number="132" title="Page:The_Poems_of_Sappho_(1924).djvu/138">&#8203;</span></span>Anacreontis et Sapphonis Carmina Tanaquillus Faber. Saumur, 1670. 24mo.
</p>

and noting the <p> marker differentiation. (Full analysis of difference required.) — billinghurst sDrewth 01:07, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

@EncycloPetey: the quick and easy solution is to use {{nop}} at the start of the page on this occasion, rather than to terminate the page before. Yes, out of general guidance, though same difference in the end. It is an artefact of the positioning of the <p> though I cannot tell what mediawiki and the javascript for page numbering are doing differently. (beyond me). — billinghurst sDrewth 01:21, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: Umm. Gulp! I vaguely recall persuading George Orwell III to look at a related matter over five years ago: the result of which was this tweak which if I recall did the job but did not entirely satisfy either of us. Perhaps this latest case demonstrates the folly of acting on the redlink status of .parentNode.nextSibling (the implications of which wasn't well understood even back then and the parser has definitely changed since.)

As I recall GOIII wanted to make all page links "blue" without checking which would "hide" any problems but I had to open my fool mouth… 114.78.66.82 09:28, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

At worst a minor annoyance, and something that I have usually resolved by creating the author page. — billinghurst sDrewth 10:51, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Ugh. We desperately need to clean up that script! When you don't control the dingus that creates the markup (the parser), traversing the DOM in this way is really fragile. Even though the failure mode in this particular case isn't catastrophic, it all adds up to the "death by a thousand cuts" that makes the site behaviour seem so arbitrary and confusing (especially for new and non-technical users). --Xover (talk) 11:17, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: The shame is the users who best understood what you call "the dingus" were, in turn probably ThomasV and Eliyak, both of whom as far as I know have long ago left the project(s).

Rather a long shot but Tpt might have some knowledge in his capacity as Extension:ProofreadPage wrangler? 114.78.66.82 11:47, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

The biggest problem there is that MediaWiki:PageNumbers.js is unconditionally loaded for everyone from MediaWiki:Common.js, and it modifies the DOM on every page on the site (it then hides its toolbar entries in namespaces where it's not supposed to be active, but the DOM is still polluted). The net result is that it's impossible, in practice, to debug such issues, and impossible to experiment with new versions of the script (the old script always overwrites whatever you try to do in the new version). I have a long-standing edit request for a change to at least start this road, but due to our not-quite-functioning Interface Admin policy it's been lingering on unaddressed. With a clean DOM to examine it should be entirely manageable to at least figure out whether we can set redlink/bluelink status reliably, and, if not, discuss and decide which tradeoff to make on that (e.g. all-bluelinks vs. sometimes misleading redlinks). --Xover (talk) 12:27, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

A workaround for that is to add https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:PageNumbers.js to your adblocker. For me, adding exactly that line to uBlock Origins "My filters" panel blocks the loading of the script and the page numbers logic never fires. This then means you can load your own locally-served or userspace JS as you wish. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 20:54, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Proofread UI: I experimented with "Proofread tools" and layout, I regret that, need course correction

I wanted to try out the alternate layout during proofread editing, so I clicked "Proofread tools" and then the rightmost icon (popup text "Vertical/horizontal layout") under "Other". That 'worked'. Didn't like the interposed controls and spacing. Then I wondered if the other icon (popup "Show/hide this page's header and footer") might change things 'betterorer'. Decided I didn't like the alternate layout (or the colored formatting or the misplaced special character insertions) and so tried to change back. Whoops.

I can't get back to the original editing layout of edit textbox with page image to its right side - two columns. Instead the textbox is now always full screen width, and headers/footers below that along with page image to its right - so three sections. I'm stuck with something now unusable.

I've tried clearing cookies - no help. I tried using a different browser, which is okay until I login. Thus this bad setup is remembered at Wikisource.

When in preferences under Editor I disable "Enable the editing toolbar", all is well again, with edit having two side-by-side columns. But then I'd lose "Special Characters". I've tried the other settings (e.g. horizontal layout) but can't get the two column layout back.

Known problem? Kinda bad when you can't reverse course... Shenme (talk) 23:09, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

@Shenme: Not a known issue, and I can swap back and forth without ending up in the state you describe. Do you have any adblocker browser plugins, or other such that might conceivably interfere with loading of javascript or stylesheets, or insert themselves somewhere in the web page that might confuse the scripts handling the layouts? Do you have any particular gadgets enabled in the Gadgets section of the preferences here? There was also a software update to MediaWiki yesterday that made some changes to the editor. Did the situation by any chance improve? --Xover (talk) 18:03, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

In usual browser, disabled in-browser adblockers with no change. And with no out-of-browser adblockers, the attempt with another browser should have tested that, but there was no improvement there either. And again, the problem followed the logged in state.

Depressed and panicked, I tried the nuclear option, in Preferences "Restore all default settings (in all sections)". So far, that seems to have worked. So... there *is* something noxious I selected or accidentally strobed, that has now been reset. *If* I get adventuresome, there might be a postscriptum later. Dragons be here. Shenme (talk) 20:47, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

DJVU index not functioning properly

For this index page, (a) the forward- and back-navigation buttons do not appear on each page, and (b) the transclusion code in the main work does not pull the pages in. What am I missing? Index:Frances Wood Shimer 1826-1901.djvu -Pete (talk) 22:31, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

I have no clue how this is even possible. I suggest a phab: ticket. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:40, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

OK, will do @Koavf:. Thanks! -Pete (talk) 23:14, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

@Peteforsyth: It was this stuff introduced in this edit. Since there was no valid <pagelist … /> tag on the index, there was no way for ProofreadPage to find the pages for the Previous/Next links in the Page namespace or the <pages … /> tag in mainspace.

That escaping of | looks like something pretty MediaWiki specific: do you perhaps have any user scripts enabled that might conceivably have interfered? Bits of Twinkle or Popups cross-loaded from enwp, say? I can't really think of a likely culprit for that particular breakage: the fields you see in the diff are parts of the storage format for Index: pages and are never really exposed to the user. You need to get the wikitext through the API to see it, so it can't really be simple user error. --Xover (talk) 05:42, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

thanks @Xover: It must have been a script, I do have several in my profile. It could also be an interaction with my javascript-blocking browser extension (umatrix), though I have it set to allow everything for *.wikisource.org, so I kind of doubt that is interfering. I guess I'll keep an eye out for it happening again, and only worry about it if it's more than a one-off. -Pete (talk) 10:34, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Metadata standards

What metadata standards does Wikisource use? —unsigned comment by Michaelbland1901 (talk) .

@Michaelbland1901: have a look at mul:Wikisource:Metadata for some of this information —Beleg Tâl (talk) 22:21, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Index pagelist offset problem

I have a problem with an index file where page 1 image displays the text of page 2. Is there any way to fix that? I tried things like 0=1 and 1=0, but to no avail.

Index:Mormonism.djvu

Don Elbourne (talk) 15:12, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

@Don Elbourne: It's a combination of insufficient validation at IA, with ditto in DjVuLibre, and a bug in MediaWiki. There's no on-wiki way to fix it, but I've regenerated the file from the source scans in such a way that it will no longer trigger the MediaWiki bug, and the page offsets should be ok now. --Xover (talk) 17:47, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: Thank you! -- Don Elbourne (talk) 18:07, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Documenting ambiguous authorship

In the Imperial Dictionary of Universal Biography, vol. 1, page 404, three segments in sequence appear (undeniably, in my opinion) to all have been written by a single author. In sequence, the author initials are J. H. B., J. B., and J. H. B.. Both sets of initials can be found in the List of Contributors. The middle segment makes reference to the preceding segment. All segments are logically appropriate to author John Hutton Balfour, M.D., F.R.S., Regius Professor of Botany, Edinburgh University. In the middle segment J. B. initials are not perfectly legible in the Wikimedia specimen image. In my physical copy it is more clear but definitely cannot justify insertion of H.
To whom do I ascribe authorship of the middle segment? If it were attributed to Balfour, how would this be documented? 11:23, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Imperial_Dictionary_of_Universal_Biography_Volume_1.pdf/438 Klarm768 (talk) 11:31, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

It depends somewhat on how attribution is handled elsewhere in the work, but I'd probably do contributor = James Brown and notes = This article may be misattributed and is probably by [[Author:John Hutton Balfour|]] or something like that. If you're certain it's by Balfour, you can just put contributor=John Hutton Balfour. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:55, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. If it were your decision, would any acknowledgment/provision be made in list of works of Author:James Brown (1835-1890) mentioning any attribution of J. B. initials having been assigned to a different author? Klarm768 (talk) 14:40, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

If it were my decision, I would only note on the author page of James Brown that he was a contributing author to the Imperial Dictionary, but I would not bother listing the individual articles. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:42, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

File:Maharashtra Anti-Superstition and Black Magic Act.pdf

Does File:Maharashtra Anti-Superstition and Black Magic Act.pdf qualifies "Act of a Legislature" defined in Indian copyright law as per Template:PD-INGov? Many thanks.廣九直通車 (talk) 14:00, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

It looks to me that it is an "Act of a Legislature" as per the Indian law (and also an "edict of government" as per US law), even though it is by a state government rather than by the Government of India. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:29, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, I have transferred the file to Commons now.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:51, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Volume 31 of a journal is in commons

File in commons is a volume of the Journal of American Folk-Lore. How do I correctly move it to Volume 31? Meaning how do I name it?

Here is the file in commons. I don't want to mess it up. If someone knows how to, would you mind doing it so that I can begin transcribing. Also it is in English with Spanish text. Regards to all. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 17:27, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

This is only one issue from the volume. I have uploaded the complete volume from the Internet Archive at Index:Journal of American Folklore vol. 31.djvu. This issue (Number 121) starts on page 289 (which is Page:Journal of American Folklore vol. 31.djvu/299).

You can probably just leave File:Porto-Rican_Folk-Lore._Décimas,_Christmas_Carols,_Nursery_Rhymes,_and_Other_Songs.djvu alone. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 18:00, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Thank you! --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 00:27, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Metadata standards

Does Wikisource use Dublin Core metadata standards? —unsigned comment by Michaelbland1901 (talk) .

@Michaelbland1901: I think that it would be honest to say that we are somewhere on the metadata spectrum between clueless and crap. In the early years there wasn't much scope, and you see a bit of a conversation at Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2011-08#Template-generated Dublin Core metadata. At this stage we have tags in our header and author templates to try and capture data. When someone comes to us with a good solution, and maybe one that involves use of wikidata, then I think that would be great.

We are good transcribers, reasonable presenters, okay at categorisation, and as specified for metadata. — billinghurst sDrewth 21:12, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

How to reproduce hanging indent styled indices?

I want to reproduce the style of index as seen in Page:A_Handbook_of_Indian_Art.djvu/369 such as for entries 'Akbar' or 'Aryans'. In another work I was recently editing, many proofreading errors were because without the indentation people got lost in scanning the text. Thus I'm interested for more than just this work.

I've played with {{hi}} on this page (see towards bottom, entries under 'E' and 'F', and experiments at last)). It appears that {{hi}} uses <div> whereas interspersed normal text uses <p> which then causes unnatural line spacing within a section.

I have not yet found an example of any somewhat similar index page that doesn't use horribly convoluted tables.

It seems that if *every* line was encased by {{hi}} then all would display nicely. But that's painful too.

Does anyone have examples of this style of index done semi-naturally, without resorting to more formatting instruction text than text? Shenme (talk) 20:32, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

@Shenme: There is {{hii}} which you can use in the header and footer through the index, and just ensure you use it in the lede of the body section of the first page though it isn't perfect either. I have done over a hundred and I still don't have a standard process, so sometimes best to have a look at what has been done by others that suits your work. Intitle "Index" search main ns. Do note that adding {{anchor+}} to the letters, {{compactTOCalpha}} to notes field can add some useful navigation. — billinghurst sDrewth 21:04, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Edit text layer of a PDF?

Does anybody know how to edit the text layer in a PDF file? Ideally I'd like to use free software on Linux, but any advice is welcome. -Pete (talk) 19:37, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Frederick Douglass image has been replaced with porn

Hi -- I don't know how to change this, but I went to look at Frederick Douglass quotes and saw someone had changed his image to a pornographic one: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:Frederick_Douglass

Can you please change it back? This is so disrespectful.

Fixed on wikidata - d:Special:Diff/1136851178 --DannyS712 (talk) 02:19, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Problem with a <ref follow tag>

There is something wrong with a reference follow tag placed on this page in Read mode, on my screen it appears as <ref follow=D142&amp;gt;. If it's possible to fix, can someone tell me what is wrong? Thanks — Ineuw (talk) 21:22, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Fixed --Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:49, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: Thanks. Can you let me in on the secret?

@Ineuw: you had a broken closing ref tag. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:38, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! — Ineuw (talk) 12:00, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@Ineuw: As explained by billinghurst. BTW, the ping template works only in combination with your signature, if you omit the signature, the notification is not sent to the addressee. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 19:18, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: Forgot to sign it, just like forgot the < from the reference tag. Must take a break. :-) Thanks again. — Ineuw (talk) 19:34, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Please review the status of this index

I noticed recently that the index of the book I'm proofreading has "Source file is incorrect" as status. I made the index some time ago and AFAIR I probably fixed the issues with the file, if any...could anyone please check if I can update the status? -- Contrapunctus-1 (talk) 17:48, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

It looks like @ShakespeareFan00: made that annotation, with the remark "duplicated frontispiece?" So I think the problem they saw was in p. 8 of the scan duplicating p. 10, and 9 duplicating 11. This doesn't seem like a big deal to me, as a fix (if even necessary) would not need to impact pagination -- just replace two pages with blanks. IMO it would be fine to change the status to "to be proofread" but perhaps SF has a reason I'm not seeing. -Pete (talk) 17:55, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Usually comes about from the tissue paper layer next to a plate in a work being scanned and it is close to transparent under the intense light, so just use the no text option for the appropriate pages. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:45, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Pete and billinghurst. How do I "replace two pages with blanks", and what is the "no text option"? I went through the pagelist documentation, but couldn't find anything which seemed relevant :\ -- Contrapunctus-1 (talk) 07:58, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@Contrapunctus-1: See help:page status; it is the grey one. I wouldn't fuss replacing them in the djvu, just ensure that you have one of each. You can make a note on the Index_talk: if it is not obvious what is occurring, or you can just leave a <!-- comment --> in the header. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:37, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

My guess is these are actual duplicates, as the tissue paper situation usually makes one of the scans blurry and hazy, which is not the case here. Either way, I agree with billinghurst: It's not worth fussing with the scan to replace the duplicated pages with blanks. By the "no text option" I suspect billinghurst means above the save button, choose the grey "without text" button instead of "proofread" or "validated" etc. for the duplicated page. Maybe it would be easier if I demonstrated, so you can see what the end result looks like. Let me know if you'd prefer that. -Pete (talk) 17:19, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining that, billinghurst and Pete. I've done it for page 8 and 9. -- Contrapunctus-1 (talk) 08:56, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Separating semantic and formatting information

I'd like to separate the semantic markup of text (e.g. "chapter title"), and that of how it should be displayed (e.g. a specific font size, style, and alignment for all chapter titles), in hope of better exporting to other targets, like LaTeX. Is this viable on Wikisource? From reading around, dynamic layouts seem closest...is this correct, or are there better ways? 🤔 -- Contrapunctus-1 (talk) 22:19, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Based on the formatting you're applying, e.g. here, it looks as though you're unfamiliar with our formatting conventions. For example, we don't use ===Header=== like Wikipedia does. We would format the example page I cited like this. You may find the Help:Beginner's guide to proofreading and the Help:Beginner's guide to typography helpful. --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:37, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

... because using sections puts section edit links in play; put ToCs in play. We use relative scaled formatting, unset fontfaces, etc. and that plays well with our layouts, and utilises whatever browser settings our readers have in place. Should also flow through to output formats. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:42, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for demonstrating the improved formatting, @EncycloPetey, and thank you for the explanation, @billinghurst. I had a notion that I wasn't quite on the right track WRT formatting, but was focused on getting the content down first. Glad to learn there's a better way :D -- Contrapunctus-1 (talk) 07:15, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

👍 @Contrapunctus-1: glad we could help. It is why we are here; easy paths add to the enjoyment. — billinghurst sDrewth 09:28, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Brace formatting

I have a formatting issue on this page - is there any way to align the text to the right of the brace such that it is in the middle of the second and third lines? -- Contrapunctus-1 (talk) 10:29, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

@Contrapunctus-1: I've reformatted it, with the brace and the content to the right of it in a single spanned row with vertical-align defaulted to middle. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 12:38, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Beleg Tâl: beautiful! Thank you so much! -- Contrapunctus-1 (talk) 17:48, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Tricky formatting, nearing the end of a 400+ page work...help?

I'm almost done proofreading this nearly 500 page book: Looters of the Public Domain It was a highly consequential book in regional history, but (I think) somewhat poorly received because its author was a notorious criminal, who implicated a number of government officials for their own crimes. It's astonishing to me that this book is not better known, and it would be great to have a complete transcription here on Wikisource, as it is not widely available elsewhere.

But this one page is causing me problems. I think some clever table construction is needed to reproduce it. Could somebody skilled at such things take a look? Page:Looters of the Public Domain.djvu/158

Done — billinghurst sDrewth 21:34, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

There are a few other pages that need lengthy tables transcribed. Those, I'm willing to do myself, as they are not complex...I just have to buckle down and do it. Fully-proofread-status is within reach! -Pete (talk) 16:41, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Transcription of Immigration Restriction Act, 1901

I found this Australian archive website which contains a list of 7 individual .jpg scans of the Immigration Restriction Act, 1901. However, not only they are in low resolution, but 7 individual .jpg scans will also be an headache to deal with. The website also provides a .pdf transcription. Is it OK to use the .pdf scan? Many thanks.廣九直通車 (talk) 04:05, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Better formatting possibility?

Is there a better way to format the right-aligned text here? It looks okay side-by-side, but not so much when viewed by itself (on a wider page). -- Contrapunctus-1 (talk) 07:29, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Wrap it in a {{block center}} template and offset the right text. I've done it so you can see what I mean. Feel free to tweak as you see fit. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 08:30, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Sidenotes misbehaving (probably not true - much more likely to be me misbehaving, actually!)

I have finally got round to rewriting Template:USStatPension/doc so that someone other than me might have a chance of understanding it! I have wrapped my example Acts of Congress in a {| class="wikitable" style="width: 65%;" |} to make them stand out a bit more clearly from the body text, but whether I put my {{sidenotes begin}} and {{sidenotes end}} inside or outside the table, the sidenotes still appear way off to the right of the page (actually off the right hand edge of my screen). Can anybody help me to move the sidenotes so that they hug the side of their appropriate single cell table rather than the page - actually the ideal outcome would probably be to have them appear within the table cell... Thanks. CharlesSpencer (talk) 13:39, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Entirely different sidenotes question

I have just discovered the delights of {{default layout|Layout 2}} and have enthusiastically applied it to United States Statutes at Large/Volume 33/Fifty-Eighth Congress/Private Acts of the Second Session. However, the sidenotes are still showing in the default sans serif typeface. The sidenotes themselves are all generated by @George Orwell III:'s excellent {{USStatSidenote}} template. Does anyone have any ideas how to get {{default layout|Layout 2}} to apply its typeface settings to our {{USStatSidenote}} sidenotes? Thanks. CharlesSpencer (talk) 14:31, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

CSS concerns

In trying to get some sanity from certain templates, I wrote a stylesheet : Template:Uksi/styles.css

I then used it with success here:- Page:UKSI_1985-0173.pdf/1

However it fails to format unless I insert {{uksi}} (which is understandable given that is what calls TemplateStyles ...

{{uksi}}{{uksi/paragraph/1-2|s1=2|s2=1|title=Interpretation|text=In these Regulations "the main regulations" means the Traffic Signs Regulations 1981<ref>The Traffic Signs Regulations 1981 comprise Part 1 of the Traffic Signs and General Directions 1981 (S.I. 1981/859)</ref> as amended <ref>The amendments are made by S.I.1982/1879, S.I 1983/1088 and S.I. 1984/966.</ref> and a reference in Schedule 1 to these Regulations and Directions is similarly a reference to the Traffic Signs Regulations 1981 amended as aforesaid}}

Interpretation

2.—(1) In these Regulations "the main regulations" means the Traffic Signs Regulations 1981^[1] as amended ^[2] and a reference in Schedule 1 to these Regulations and Directions is similarly a reference to the Traffic Signs Regulations 1981 amended as aforesaid

Is there a way for this to be improved upon, given that the stylesheet is getting somewhat complex already?

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:54, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

1. The Traffic Signs Regulations 1981 comprise Part 1 of the Traffic Signs and General Directions 1981 (S.I. 1981/859)
2. The amendments are made by S.I.1982/1879, S.I 1983/1088 and S.I. 1984/966.

Rhodesian Propaganda

I have a pamphlet of Rhodesian propaganda, printed by the Rhodesian Government Printer in June, 1966 and published by the Rhodesian Ministry of Information, Immigration, and Tourism for distribution at home and abroad. I would like to add this pamphlet to Wikisource, but I am uncertain as to the copyright involved. The pamphlet contains no explicit declaration of copyright (i.e. (c) or ©), but I understand that that isn't always necessary. Anyone here knowledgeable in such things? Regards, Guywan (talk) 20:34, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

@Guywan: Hard to give specific advice, Rhodesia then would have been crown copyright, however, with independence and becoming Zimbabwe it will depend how the government changed their copyright rules. Best I can do is point you to Commons and c:Template:PD-Zimbabwe — billinghurst sDrewth 12:58, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: Thanks for the response. I think this pamphlet (which is entitled Rhodesia: In the Context of Africa) falls under the following:

It is a artistic, literary, or musical work created under the direction of the state or an international organization and 50 years have passed since the date of its publication

Which means that the copyright naturally expired in 2016. The back of the pamphlet contains the following:

In the United States, this material is filed with the Department of Justice, where the required statement, in terms of the Foreign Agents Registration Act, of the Rhodesian Information Office, 2852 McGill Terrace, Washington D.C., as an agency of the Rhodesian Ministry of Information, is available for inspection. Registration does not indicate approval by the United States Government.

This seems to suggest that the pamphlet was published in Rhodesia and the U.S. simultaneously, and was unaffected by the renewed copyrights given by the Uruguay Round Agreements Act. Do you think it is safe to judge that the work is in the public domain? —guywan (talk • contribs) 22:37, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

@Guywan: Some intricate detail, though sounds reasonable to me. Crown copyright would have normally applied, and that would have lasted 50 years, so your call of 50 years by similar process seems reasonable. — billinghurst sDrewth 02:45, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Unexpected Lint error: Page:A Collection of the Acts passed by the Governor General of India in Council, 1897.pdf/7

It claims stripped tags, All template calls are balanced. Suggestions on where I have misunderstood something please? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:02, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

And re-doing the page from scratch, cleared them, which means somehow there was an obscure typo. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:26, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Request to check availability

Can somebody check whether the Google book Heavens by A. Šmilovský is available from somewhere (e.g. from the United States)? Thanks very much! --Jan Kameníček (talk) 22:37, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I can access it from Canada. Will upload to Commons shortly. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 12:52, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: File:Heavens!.djvu —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:17, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Perfect! Thanks!! --Jan Kameníček (talk) 13:48, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

@Beleg Tâl: Oh, unfortunately the scan is quite bad with beginnings and endings of lines missing :-( Sometimes it is difficult to guess the missing parts for me. I will try to puzzle it out but I will have to borrow the Czech original first, hoping it will help me to get the meaning and thus guess the missing parts. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 16:21, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Defoe DjVu request

Can someone generate a DjVu with text layer from (external scan)? This is the 1722 first edition of Daniel Defoe's A Journal of the Plague Year, which we are missing. This is an early novel, fictionalized from historical accounts of the 1665 plague, and might generate interest given current world events. --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:49, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@EncycloPetey: File:A Journal of the Plague Year (1722).djvu --Xover (talk) 18:07, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! --EncycloPetey (talk) 18:13, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Poet Lore, volume 4

I would like to ask for help with File:Poet Lore, volume 4, 1892.pdf. There are three pages missing. I have extracted them from some other copy (which has different pages missing). Two of them I have uploaded here and they come before the title page with the poem by Tennyson (which is currently the 5th page of the file and should move to become 7th page of the file). The third missing page is frontispiece and is here. It should come before the first page of No. 1 (with the text A Modern Bohemian Novelist…). Could somebody add those three pages to the file, please? I would also like to ask for converting the file into djvu. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 14:42, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: File:Poet Lore, volume 4, 1892.djvu --Xover (talk) 15:31, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Perfect, thanks very much! --Jan Kameníček (talk) 15:43, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Waning of the Middle Ages

The current nomination for June 2020 PotM, and we finally found a scan. However it needs a DjVu to be used for the PotM. There is a google scan here. --EncycloPetey (talk) 18:28, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

@EncycloPetey: File:The Waning of the Middle Ages (1924).djvu. Minimal quality control. Let me know if it needs fixing. --Xover (talk) 12:11, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Scrambled NLS uploads...

I've raised a concern here, User_talk:Gweduni#Wrong_uploads_or_mis-titles? about the scrambled nature of some NLS uploads.

The contributor there wanted to delete the list, but that seemed like overkill as it should be possible for an administrator at Commons to identify which scans belong to which metadata, and thus do some relocations and realignments of pages.

However, I'd like a third opinion on this, because it has been stated in the past that sometimes 'nuking' bad uploads and starting again IS a better option. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:19, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I made an amended list here Wikisource:WikiProject NLS/Scrambled, I don't think these are duplicates, as I checked when I made a list of those, and I certainly didn't see duplicates when looking at the thumbnails on Commons. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:28, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

They can be moved easily enough. The issue is if the username is already in use that we are going to need to get the order right, and then get the right metadata in place. @Gweduni: If the NLS is able to quickly and easily run the upload scripts again then it is probably easiest to re-upload then if there is no other work having been done on them, eg. respective Index: pages here, and even proofreading here. Then we have a little work to do. I am able to do a deletion at clean up as required. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:15, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Courtesy cross reference to Commons thread:- c:Commons:Administrators'_noticeboard#Mismtached_files/descriptions..., which can be closed if it's not needed. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:59, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Closed that discussion, and said we would sort it out locally. — billinghurst sDrewth 15:16, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Getting proofreaders

Hi there, I have more or less finished a first pass of My People, which is generally acknowledged as the first Anglo-Welsh literary text. Is there a process for getting people to double check the text, or is it up to me to find volunteers? It is quite a short text, so I am hoping it will be reasonably easy to get it to a high standard. JimKillock (talk) 15:40, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

There is a Wikisource:WikiProject Validate, which is a group of people who work to validate (proofread a second time). You can find particulars on the Project page. --EncycloPetey (talk) 18:32, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

I've looked at a few pages, it looks good to me. I've made a couple notes in my edit summaries, but nothing major. -Pete (talk) 18:00, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you both, I've left a note at Wikisource:WikiProject Validate. I've done a second review myself; hopefully some people will come forward to help. I’m keen to make the text more widely available. Do you know if Project Gutenberg have a process for picking texts up from here? Or even Amazon ;) ? (My gut is that the latter doesn't, they don’t seem to pick up new texts as they enter the public domain, but I could be wrong about that.) JimKillock (talk) 21:33, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

@JimKillock: Good questions, and ones I've thought about a fair amount. I don't have definite answers, but I'll share my thinking.

I think that Wikisource generally doesn't score too highly on search engines mainly because the quality and completeness of its texts vary so widely, and because search engines have not (yet?) learned to distinguish between texts that are proofread, validated, or have other markers of quality. I hope @Kaldari: might comment on this, it's something they've been working on.

Project Gutenberg: I think it's more common for us to republish works from PG than the other way around. They have better search engine performance, but we have better scan-backing in our interface. I have never contributed to PG myself, but I'd imagine you could try to submit it there yourself.

Amazon: I believe it's generally independent booksellers who use the Amazon platform, rather than Amazon itself, that take public domain works and compile them into books for sale for profit. I don't really like the practice, but I suppose it does make works more accessible.

High quality incoming (and internal) links will make the Wikisource more discoverable. Are there Wikipedia articles that you could improve by using this as a source? Also, can you submit a link to the Online Books Page?

Hope some of this helps -- let me know if you have questions or other ideas. -Pete (talk) 02:15, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@Peteforsyth: Wikisource scores very high with some works, but not with others. It depends on how saturated the internet is with a particular work. --EncycloPetey (talk) 03:01, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@JimKillock: I've looked a bit more closely at this, and I think there are some opportunities. Some observations:

• Searching on the full title on Google, Wikisource comes up as the 9th hit (and then, it's the index page, which carries the full title, but not the mainspace page.
• The title of the Wikisource page is merely the first portion of the title of the book. At minimum, Wikisource should have a redirect from the full title to the shortened version; or, you might consider moving all the pages to the full title.
• There is a Wikipedia article and a Wikidata item, but the Wikidata item lacks a number of attributes that might make it tastier to search engines, such as the author's name and the WorldCat ID. I've added those and will try to add some other statements there.
• The index page did not have the "transcluded" attribute. I have no idea whether search engines are smart enough to look for this attribute, but they should, it's a good indicator of completeness. I added it.
• I don't know whether you're aware of John Mark Ockerbloom's Online Books Page, which I mentioned before, but it's essentially a free high quality incoming link, and I strongly urge you to submit it. Here are better links -- instructions on how to suggest a book and the form itself.

I hope some of these items help. Let me know if you want to discuss further. -Pete (talk) 02:20, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

P. S. Currently, the Online Books Page lists only a few Hathi Trust editions and a Gutenburg edition. It would be nice to add Wikisource to that list. -Pete (talk) 02:23, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I've made a submission to Online Books Page, and also moved the pages to the full title plus subtitle. Hopefully that will help with SEO. JimKillock (talk) 07:22, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

@JimKillock: You're welcome. I've been searching on DuckDuckGo, Google, and Bing every few days. Just today, the Wikisource transcription seems to have vaulted into the #1 spot on all three search engines, for the search "my people peasantry west wales"! I see that the Online Books Page did add a link. I suspect that OBP and/or the name change was probably the decisive stroke. Anyway, nicely done, and glad I could help! -Pete (talk) 21:52, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, very helpful :) I’ve now finished doing the headers and footers to make anyone’s job wanting to validate the content a bit easier. JimKillock (talk) 13:38, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Can you mark page articles you create in the Page namespace as "proofread" yourself?

I was copying scans from Google and then proofreading them myself. Can I go ahead and mark those pages as "proofread" or does someone else have to proofread it, and then a third person validates it? PseudoSkull (talk) 06:27, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: Yes, please promote a page status when you believe that it passes the proofreading test as described.

Any one can proofread read (logged-in or logged out). A user not logged-in does not see the page status elements so cannot promote a work; whereas a logged-in user can see the page status, and can promote a page's status to one of proofread or validated, but not promote the same page twice. — billinghurst sDrewth 06:36, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Google OCR broken

Tracked in PhabricatorTask T250312Resolved

When trying to use it, I get this error message. What steps can I take to remedy this?? I am not able to proofread without it. It is the only tool that reproduces extended Latin characters accurately. — Ineuw (talk) 18:21, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@Ineuw: The error you're seeing is being returned from the server side of the Google OCR gadget, so there's nothing you can do to fix it beyond filing a bug report in Phabricator. It may be a transient problem caused by Wikimedia globally exhausting the API call limit for Google Vision that will go away on its own after some period of time. @Samwilson: It looks like the Google Vision API Proxy is returning a 403 Forbidden status, conceivably forwarded from Google and caused by an expired or revoked API key. Someone with access needs to poke around the logs on googlevision.api-proxy.wmflabs.org to figure out what's going on. Other random possible factor: there was a CloudVPS proxy change announced recently (and a NAT change, but I think that was abandoned). --Xover (talk) 18:51, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks I will report it to Phabricator. — Ineuw (talk) 18:53, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

It's working again as of a couple of hours ago. — Ineuw (talk) 02:44, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

• Sorry about this. Glad it's working again now (thanks to MusikAnimal and bd808). I've also just added a phab:tag/tool-wikisource-ocr project to track issues with the tool or gadget. Hopefully there will be some good action on that front in another few weeks (when we in CommTech move on to that wish). —Sam Wilson 08:32, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Requesting validation

Is there an easy way to request validation of pages here, and bring community attention to proofread pages? PseudoSkull (talk) 18:32, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Once you have proofread and transcluded a work, then we encourage users to add their completed works to {{new texts}}.

You can post here. Otherwise that is a weakness we have. Generally we haven't had a huge and continuous uptake in the "anyone want to validate my work" as we are either doing general maintenance and curating, OR we are working on our works. I do try, however, life is full of best intentions, and there is so much maintenance! No harm in asking though. There are some users who do like to validate, and someone like Kathleen.wright5 may if she has an interest in the work.

We used to spend a month a year (November) validating works through WS:Proofread of the Month though that has gone by the wayside it would seem. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:45, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

The Adventures of Paddy the Pelican/Piggy Bank Robbery problematic segment

Would any of you be able to make out what the two characters are saying in those instances of the episode, where in the transcript it says "illegible text" (even though it's spoken words, not text)? This is the page that's problematic, and the talk page explains why. Feel free to edit those pages if you come up with a definite answer. PseudoSkull (talk) 15:42, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Converting endnotes to wiki syntax

What is the preferred method for converting endnotes to wiki syntax? I'm working on The History of Oregon Newspapers. Is it best to link the footnotes to the text on the pages at the end of the book, or to copy that text onto the pages from which it is noted? For instance, see this page which contains notes from this section (and the subsequent section). I have been moving them using the standard <ref></ref> format, but I'm wondering if there's a preferred method. -Pete (talk) 05:32, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

I think either way is a good one. I personally would be faithful to the way in which the notes are presented in the book, i.e. keep them in the separate chapter at the end of the book and link there from individual notes (if the authors wanted to have the notes directly at the end of every page or chapter, they would do it). But if you wanted to make them more accessible than they were in the original book by copying them into footnotes of individual chapters, I would not object. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 07:37, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

I created {{authority reference}} for this purpose, and you can see it implemented in {{Studies in Irish History ref}} (per cited at Page:Studies in Irish History, 1649-1775 (1903).djvu/81 and endnote at Page:Studies in Irish History, 1649-1775 (1903).djvu/123) resulting in Studies in Irish History, 1649-1775/Ireland under Charles II.. Keeps it all in place—only issue that I cheat upon is I don't try to do "follow" as that is just even more complexity for little value. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:45, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Best to start with the end notes, and I found that I could do the formatting with a regex replacement as long as you paid attention to the preparation. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:47, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: Exactly what I was looking for, thanks. I think I have it sorted out, I'll play with it a bit more and then try applying regex as you suggest. @Jan.Kamenicek: In this case I plan to do it by chapter, because it's pretty clearly a convenience thing. I think the modern reader is a lot better served by having the notes easily accessible. -Pete (talk) 01:14, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Descrambling Some NLS uploads...

Left a note here, User_talk:FrancineMillard#Scrambled uploads... but, renaming them and re-aligning them at commons is complicated by the fact that someone created Index: pages in good faith and also in good faith started transcription/proofreading under the in error names.

It can be salvaged, but would need someone with the right user rights to relocate things. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:11, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

'Show Preview' and 'Show changes' results displayed in bottom of page

Perhaps someone knows why these pages the preview display and show changes at the bottom, below the Publish changes button? This problem also exists in the Vivaldi browser. This happens only when I am logged in. I disabled all gadgets, removed the .css and .js codes, logged out and deleted all wikimedia related cookies. Editing without logging in, the display is correct. If I log in, the display moves to the bottom of the web page. Anyone has a suggestion please? — Ineuw (talk) 04:49, 24 April 2020 (UTC) File:Proofread preview pane is on the bottom.jpg — Ineuw (talk) 18:20, 24 April 2020 (UTC) The problem still exists and is something related to my account. On leaving Wikisource, I delete all cookies then I login, and the problem reasserts itself. — IneuwPublic talk 01:03, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

@Ineuw: Sounds like you have changed your preferences Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing, ensure that you have preview before edit box ticked (or whichever one it is like that, I don't remember the words). — billinghurst sDrewth 01:24, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: The problem must be with my login. The same problem exists on Wikipedia, Commons and Wikimedia. Preview appears at the bottom of the page.

Could the problem be because I also use the Vivaldi browser to edit on occasion. Could switching between browsers be the cause of the corruption? Ineuw (talk) 02:31, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

If you noticed that I made changes in Preferences, it was to reset everything to default to test the issue which showed up earlier.Ineuw (talk) 02:31, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

@Ineuw: We cannot see your preferences, they are yours, I am just presuming. Check your Special:GlobalPreferences also available through any wiki's prefs. — billinghurst sDrewth 06:32, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: How could my preferences in Wikisource affect the previews on other sites? I don't use global settings. On each Wiki site I edit, the codes are always stored in the local Vectra files. Ineuw (talk) 08:48, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I have no idea what you have done or been editing. I am giving advice on the setting for preview below editing box, and how to check/change for local and global preferences. You seem to be in a reactive space, rather than a thinking space. You have to be using local/global preferences, they are preferences; see m:Help:Preferences. Your use of a skin, be it vector or another, is still a skin; see mw:Help:Skins. — billinghurst sDrewth 10:15, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
@Billinghurst: Don't know if you are interested in my issue, but I opened this task T251052 ticket. You were 100% correct. It may be that my global preference settings link to the local preferences is broken. User:IneuwPublic has no Global account and the edit preference of displaying the preview works. Ineuw (talk) 17:10, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Every account is a global account per m:Help:Unified login and demonstrated via special:CentralAuth -> special:CentralAuth/Ineuw and special:CentralAuth/IneuwPublic both exist. If you have something broken in your connection to Special:GlobalPreferences then that is a Wikimedia issue and a phabricator is the right space. Either way, from your Ineuw account you should be able to change your global preference to have the preview above the edit box as a global setting. You should also be able to amend each wiki's local preferences to do per wiki. Nothing that we can do locally to fix, or resolve. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:21, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Transclusion of section headings

I have noticed that when a page contains level 2, 3, etc. headings, and then it is transcluded with a <pages> tag, the headings are not transcluded properly but are included as a literal == Level 2 ==, === Level 3 ==, etc. This is in contrast to transcluding the page template-style like {{this}}. Is this behavior intentional and is there a way to override it?

I have discovered that the issue only appears when a heading is as the first line of a page. Putting a blank line first fixes the issue. Phillipedison1891 (talk) 16:52, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

@Phillipedison1891: It is unusual for us to use section headings in transcriptions as they tend not to reflect the works. I have seen them used in some modern works, typically reports, though quite unusual in older works. We would typically use one of the sized block templates, see {{larger block}}, typically wrapped in {{center}}. — billinghurst sDrewth 21:47, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

To answer your question however, due a work being transcluded the page is actually {...previous page text}{space}{==...}, and when transcluded there is no newline. Wiki section headings want to see the start of a line {^}==. As part of transcluding pages together, the pages also join without hard returns. Typically we use {{nop}} at the end of the preceding page, and that sort of guidance applies in this situation. All that wikiformatting of *, # etc. wants to see that it starts the line. — billinghurst sDrewth 21:58, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Converting to djvu

May I ask for help with converting File:Seven Years in South Africa v1.pdf and File:Seven Years in South Africa v2.pdf into djvu? It seems that the files are too big for common online converters. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 15:53, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I do not think that there is a big problem here: the page thumbnails just generate slowly as often for PDFs. I requested their pre-generation; in 1-2 hours they all should be available as you can see for first few tenth pages here. Unless the file is purged... Ankry (talk) 18:36, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I've given up on the online converters, I typically use the Linux pdf2djvu command. Have you tried that? I'm happy to do that for you if you'd like Jan.Kamenicek. -Pete (talk) 18:49, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

@Peteforsyth: That would be great, as I know nothing about Linux :-(

@Ankry: I am sorry, but I did not get it. I do not have problems with generating PDF thumbnails, I just want to convert the files from PDF to DJVU, and when I tried some online converters I either directly got the message "The file size is too large" or they simply did not do anything. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 19:14, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

OK, I'm working on it. The pdf2djvu program is incredibly simple to use (and can be used on Windows or Mac too, I believe) -- I'd be happy to help you set it up if you'd like. I'm running it now, it's 100 pages into the 500+ page document, I expect it will take an hour or so. I should be able to upload in the next 3-4 hours. -Pete (talk) 19:56, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

@Peteforsyth: If you think it is easy I will definitely try it :-) --Jan Kameníček (talk) 20:33, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I tried pdf2djvu on a file recently, and discovered that okular was showing the djvu as seriously downgraded relative to the original. Is this idiosyncratic to my file, or a problem with okular, or some feature I didn't use right?--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:38, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

File:Seven Years in South Africa v1.djvu

I will see if I can help you, Jan - are you on Mac or Windows? (It's easy to use, we will see how easy it is to set up -- I think it's possible, I will see if I can guide you!) @Prosfilaes: I don't know. I haven't used it in great depth, but it generally seems OK. I bet there are some parameters that determine resolution etc., I will see what I can learn from the man page. -Pete (talk) 01:33, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

p. 23 after pdf2djvu. Same page at IA.

File:Seven Years in South Africa v1 (temporary).djvu

File:Seven Years in South Africa v1 (temporary).djvu

p. 23 generated from source scans.

[@Prosfilaes: ↑↑↑↑ (the original ping was typoed)]

@Peteforsyth: I had a look at the above DjVu and it appears to have a huge white gutter around each actual page image, as if pdf2djvu worked like "print to DjVu" and placed the actual page image on a larger A4/Letter-sized canvas. Does it have any options to disable that behaviour?

I also looked a bit (quickly, superficially) at the image quality. Compare the legend in the top right of p. 23 in the pdf2djvu-made DjVu with the same page at IA (it's the same scan as the one at HathiTrust). The pdf2djvu output is essentially illegible where the original scan can still at least be interpreted (barely, but possible). That's mostly because the PDF input had excessive encoding artefacts and compression to begin with, but it doesn't help that it's been serially reencoded. And it looks like pdf2djvu has about doubled the pixel resolution from the PDF, which will only have the effect of magnifying the problems.

For comparison I grabbed the original scan images from IA and ran them through my custom DjVu pipeline (scripts wrapping tesseract and djvulibre), and the results look to be at least comparable to the original scans (despite reencoding from JPEG to DjVu wavelets). I have uploaded a temporary copy of this for reference (see second thumb at right). Without having studied this in depth, I am currently using the output from that pipeline as my reference for achievable quality (both for image quality and OCR). That's only anecdotally of course (though I've generated several tens of thousands of pages with it so far), so your mileage may definitely vary.

Anyways, I hope that's of some use when looking for the best settings to use. --Xover (talk) 07:48, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

@Peteforsyth: Great, thanks very much! I am using Windows. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 08:05, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks also @Xover: for the advice, though I have to admit I do not understand it a bit :-( Honestly, I hoped I will simply download some application (some safe one, I have already had some bad experience with freeware), open it and start converting, with results as good as the original was. (sigh: how the life could be easy, if PDFs worked well in Mediawiki environment…) --Jan Kameníček (talk) 08:05, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Well, it seems like in my haste, I may have made a bit of a mess of things. @Xover: If you have made a better file, please feel free to overwrite the one I already uploaded. I'll try to learn the options in djvu2pdf better, and Jan, I'll follow up on your user talk page about how to install it on Windows. -Pete (talk) 21:38, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

@Peteforsyth: I'll have to do some quality control on them first: I generated them quickly mainly to have a comparison for the purely technical aspects, and so you'd have a reference for tweaking your own tool setup. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help with that. I'm very much interested in improving the quality of our scans (and OCR), including efforts to improve tooling and expand the pool of contributors that have access to such tools. --Xover (talk) 07:33, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek, @Peteforsyth: Vol. 1 has been overwritten and Vol. 2 uploaded (index). I've checked them as best I could, but you may want to look over them an extra time to make sure I didn't mess anything up. The index for Vol. 2 was created mainly for quality control so you'll probably have to tweak it to fit your preference. I'll go delete the temporary file now. --Xover (talk) 16:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Perfect, thanks very much! --Jan Kameníček (talk) 16:57, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Help with lilypond (transcribing Gregorian chant)

At the moment, I am trying to transcribe short extracts of Gregorian chant for inclusion at this page in the English hymnal. In so doing, I'm following the examples from the relevant documentation, i.e. this page here. There are some peculiarities with this particular example which need be dealt with (the clef is in a non-standard position; etc...), but none of these are major problems. However, I am having difficulties with transcribing the use of Gregorian ligatures correctly, as the effect remains in subsequent notes (see the effects here). Anybody have any experience with this? 107.190.33.254 01:56, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

To note Help:LilyPond; @Beeswaxcandle:??? — billinghurst sDrewth 03:33, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I've managed to solve most of the issues (silly me, just had to add the text, and use "-" instead of "--" for hyphens). However, barlines are not still not showing so I'll keep this up here in case anybody does find a solution for that minor annoyance. 107.190.33.254 17:09, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Hyphenated word across page, but within old-style quoted text

Here's a conflict between hyphenation across page boundaries, but where the text was italicized. How to do both auto-hyphenation and italics, both in page and main spaces?

The result in the main page was not good:

and that the answers to them by Mr. S. Rosenthal are satis- factory, I feel bound to declare that

The page end and beginning were:

“Having read ... and that the answers to them by Mr. S. Rosenthal are satis-

factory, I feel bound to declare that

One can do the {{hwe}} thing for page space, but I doubt it'd appear well in main space. Shenme (talk) 19:49, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Done I just tried not to italicize the hyphen. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 19:56, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Eww, err, works! Thanks. Shenme (talk) 00:31, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

@Shenme: Please note that these display templates are partially a gimmick on the lead page, and you can just poke the suffixed/hyphenated text into the footer section and format it without templates to get the effect. All the magic happens on the succeeding page, especially for the tranclusion, so there you can usually wrap the formatting on the outside, and/or the inside with normal nesting. [The reason for the gimmick is to simple lessen the conversation about header/footer, hiding things, etc. which confuses new users] — billinghurst sDrewth 00:23, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Index:Sandbox.djvu and we have a sandbox for Index/Page: for playtime as needed. We used to have these synched with permanent links to Wikisource:Sandbox and Template:Sandbox though it is a while since I have played there. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:34, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Tables where cell content spans pages

Page:CTSS programmer's guide.djvu/33 and Page:CTSS programmer's guide.djvu/36 is what I'm dealing with, transcluded in Compatible time-sharing system: A programmer's guide Phillipedison1891 (talk) 04:14, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Nevermind, figured it out Phillipedison1891 (talk) 04:18, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Attempts to resolve issues with FI..

I created a sandbox version of {{FI}}

and a minimal test case here: User:ShakespeareFan00/Sandbox/imgfloats

The nominal live version works as designed.

The sandbox version doesn't. WHY? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:56, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

The main problem seems to be that for some reason the width attribute for the inner DIV and images are NOT being set up properly.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:56, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Abandoned, because the approach used is clearly not going to work. If someone else want to look at the past revisions of the sandbox and figure out what went wrong, feel free, but I don't feel happy wasting my time continually fighting bad design and misunderstandings in the back-end and interactions of template markup.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:32, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Whitespace handling...

In connection with something I was working on :- User:ShakespeareFan00/Sandbox/CCEmovies

The whitespace between entries is a double line opposed to a single used between paragraphs within an entry. Within a single page this is reasonable, and it should be stated that there's no "visual" problems on the transclusion.

However, currently, the additional 2 lines at the end of the first transcluded page and then a NOP, means that whereas inside a page the additonal whitespace is 'tidyed' into the proceeding paragraph, at a nominal page-break it generates a blank paragraph and a blank div. In my example this is not an issue, but it's unreasonable to expect less experienced contributors to know about this whitespace handling issue long-term.

Is there a better solution to spacing out the entries, that doesn't rely on knowing precise whitespace behaviour (or a lot of unnecessary templates?

(Aside: Whist {{nop}} and {{nopt}} work as designed, I am increasingly of the view that they should be a "magic word" directive to Proofread page as opposed to the insertion of 'dummy' or 'empty' content into a page. There were apparently suggestions elsewhere that Mediawiki might eventually strip out "blank" tag pairs entirly, which would naturally break ALL content relying on the behaviour {{nop}} uses. ) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:07, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Alternatively, could {{nop}} be extended in an appropriate way so it could insert additional blank lines to accommodate the formatting used here?

ShakespeareFan00 (talk)

Rotated header in table cells..

Page:Quarterly Journal of the Geological Society of London, vol. 34.djvu/493

Yes the approach here is in good faith, but whilst {{rotate}} does rotate, the size of the surrounding table cell doesn't meaning it looks very ugly.

Is there a better solution , Supported in CSS for this specfic use case? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:31, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

It seems that the style min-height does not work, so I tried to change it just for height and now it looks better. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 17:31, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Different beahviour from span vs DIV based version of templates due to unnamed parmaeters

The output should be the same.

⁠Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena⁠in gēar-dagum Fol. 129a.

⁠Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena⁠in gēar-dagum Fol. 129a.

But the font or fonts param were not being passed down it seems. Temporary fix implemented but would appreciate a review.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:52, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Searching for Recent Changes in a specific Work

How can I search for recent changes in a specific work? I am working on An_Exposition_of_the_Old_and_New_Testament_(1828) but this contains 6 huge DJVUs. I'd like to be able to go to Special:RecentChanges and search for the string "An Exposition of the Old and New Testament (1828)".--PeterR2 (talk) 00:02, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Is your desire separate from "Related Changes" available from each DJVU index page? For instance, from Vol 1 index page in the left column under 'Tools' there is "Related Changes" for Vol 1. Clicking that link will show you changes in the last 30 days. The number of days and number of changes is personalized to you, so the tools link may show you fewer.

Here is the equivalent link for Vol 2., "Related Changes" for Vol 2. You will see that there *haven't* been any changes in 30 days.

Nor in Vol 3. or Vol 6. But Vols 4 and 5 *have* had activity. I don't know of a way to query all 6 volumes at once. Shenme (talk) 04:30, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

That's most helpful, thank you. I searched all over for quite a while before asking! Thank you also, Shenme and ShakespeareFan00 for the work you have done in Vol 4 and Vol 5 of An_Exposition_of_the_Old_and_New_Testament_(1828).PeterR2 (talk) 08:27, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

 Comment We have {{engine}} which can be used to search works in the page namespace, and if there are volumes of works that is still possible if the initial part of the stem of the pagenames is the same. Have a look at {{Index Alumni Oxoniensis}} as an example in a template; or Wikisource:WikiProject Biographical dictionaries/Catholic Encyclopedia where we have a couple looking at bits in works. It does nothing for time-related recent changes, though there is possible that function within mw:Help:CirrusSearch — billinghurst sDrewth 05:55, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Images in footnotes

Within Index:Primevalantiquit00wors.djvu there are several pages that have images within or beside footnotes (for example this one, this one, and this one). The help pages Help:Footnotes and endnotes and Help:Adding images do not mention anything about this happening. What should be done in cases like this? DraconicDark (talk) 21:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Add them, as best you can. If you want someone to have a go, then let us know. The help pages are just help pages compiled to cover situations, so will never comprehensively cover every subject. — billinghurst sDrewth 05:49, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Hyphenated italics over a page break?

Is the behaviour when transcluding?

''A-'' ''B''

''A-''''B''

Or is is it a third case I haven't considered?

I have a possible way to handle this which is to wrap a SPAN tag around the portion to handle the italic formatting, if desired, but wanted to confirm the actual behaviour before writing 'yet another useless' template. (Especially given the concerns about SPAN DIV handling with respect to body/footer interactions mentioned elsewhere.

The proposed new template was {{iws}}{{iwe}} following on from {{hws}}{{hwe}} ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:53, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I think it's a good concept, but the second example is wrong. The opening portion of the proposed template should only have the open tag, and the closing template should only contain the closing tag. I propose using HTML <i></i> for clarity in templates instead of wiki code. Also, this has nothing to do with hyphenation. — Ineuw (talk) 21:39, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Not sure I'm understanding SF's original question, but did the situation resemble my above posting, which Jan.Kamenicek solved by doing (essentially)

''hi''-

''there''

to get the effect of ''hithere'' across page boundary. The third option? Shenme (talk) 00:28, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
@Shenme: The result of your solution is hi there. If you are using the Clean up OCR tool from the sidebar, that software is supposed to remove hyphens from the end of each text line to eliminate hyphenation and merge two separated words into one — and that is not the same.

To merge them into an unbroken word one should use the hws + hwe template. To enclose the text in italics and retain the hyphen in hi-there, I can only do it if the closing code is hidden in the footer and the opening code is is hidden in the header of the following page, as in ...

Page 1
Opening tag outside the template <i>{{hws|hi-|hi-there}} hidden in the footer </i>
Page 2
The opening italics tag <i> is hidden in the header and the closing tag is outside the template {{hwe|there|hi-there}}</i>.

The third option is move the end half of the word from the second page to the first and leave a note <!--hwe joined with hws--> and join them as hithere on one page. Also check your transcluded method on the main namespace page.— Ineuw (talk) 05:28, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

As I mentioned I wasn't sure of the desired result or problem. In my question I had italicized text that needed the hyphen to disappear stitching together as desired "satis" and "factory" to get "satisfactory", whereas I was getting instead "satis- factory", which you are pointing out? I wish the original question had included a problem example. Pictures for those having difficulties with "word problems" is nice. :-) Shenme (talk) 05:40, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Your method removed the hyphen but the main namespace text will display a space. — Ineuw (talk) 05:43, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Based on discussions elsewhere, the issue SF00 was having was a word that was split across pages and was italic. The solution for that case is, as Jan points out, to use ''hyphena''- and ''ted'' (will render as hyphenated on transclusion). ProofreadPage, so far as I can tell, doesn't care what precedes the hypen or follows the start of the next page: if a page ends with a literal hyphen (-) it will remove the hyphen and join the two pages without a gap, and you can plan your markup based on that. I have yet to run across a real-world case that actually requires the use of {{hws}}/{{hwe}} after this feature was implemented. Preserving a hyphen at the end of a page requires something like {{peh}}, but that's about it. --Xover (talk) 06:00, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Theoretical discussions are easily resolved if you temporarily (as a test) insert the words as you see it, in two sequential pages in the page namespace which are already transcluded Save it and open the main ns page and look for the break (easy) and see what the result is. I am convinced that you are wrong. There will be a space between the two words in the main namespace where the two pages are supposed to be joined.— Ineuw (talk) 06:24, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Xover's response is based on an ACTUAL test case in Page: namespace - See the 4th test case here User:ShakespeareFan00/Sandbox/hyphtest hws and hwe are no longer needed, because the backend code handling hyphenation WAS updated. However, if a genuine hyphen is needed at the end of a page you now have to explicitly indicate this with {{peh}}. A more intelligent syntax for how to handle 'split' styled content was something suggested on Phabricator a while back but can't recall which ticket number. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:35, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: You know a hell of a lot more than I do . . . especially about templates! The problem is whatever we do in the page namespace between two pages is only visible in the main namespace. Is it possible to see a transcluded main namespace article of these? — Ineuw (talk) 22:41, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

 Comment Why? why why? We don't need another damn template. On the first page just stick the formatted text in the footer. On the second page just use {{hwe}} and wrap it in italics. You can even have both components of the HWE template have italics within. the HWS/HWE templating is just to make things easier for us to explain to newbies, it has no other essential functioning and shouldn't be treated as some sort of magic bullet. — billinghurst sDrewth 06:00, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, the template-based approach was presumably because at the time it looked like it was necessary in order to be able to split a word with formatting applied across pages. Once it was made clear you could just use something like ''hyphena''- and ''ted'', the templates were obviously no longer needed. Which applies to {{hws}}/{{hwe}} too, by the way. They are no longer meaningfully needed, and the little added value they provide is nowhere near sufficient to outweigh their added complexity. We should no longer recommend these templates for new users, and even experienced users with a habit should be encouraged to rethink it (mainly because new users tend to learn by example, so you get voodoo uses of them for all eternity). Was it not such a massive effort for marginal gain I would have argued for systematically replacing their use and actively deprecating them (and we have much bigger fish with much better value propositions to fry). --Xover (talk) 06:26, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

I know why they were created in the beginning and the evolution from {{hw}} to {{hws}}/{{hwe}} and I still support the use of {{hwe}}. It was the creation of an italics version that was doing my nut, and that the discussions gets legs and grows. I still somewhat support the retention of {{hws}} for newbies as it allows the continuation of the conversation of "type what you see" in the body, and multiple new users have struggled over the years to understand the header and footer components. I don't understand the dogged continued use of it by experienced users, well at least not in the body of the work. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:03, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

What is the purpose you see for {{hwe}}? --Xover (talk) 13:38, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

If there is a way to make hyphenated words within page-spanning footnotes work properly without the use of these templates, I would very much like to know it. If there is not, then that seems like reason enough not to phase out the templates. As to the question of why I "doggedly" used them for so many months after it was no longer necessary, it's simple (and I think reasonable): I don't pore over every Scriptorium announcement etc., and until very recently I simply didn't know that they were no longer necessary. No rebellious intent, just a lack of information. I'd imagine there are many others like me. -Pete (talk) 20:21, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

You learn something new every day… Thanks Pete, I hadn't thought of that case. That is indeed a very good reason to retain these templates, and once you need them for some cases it may be—as I think is part of Billinghurst's point above—simpler to communicate that you always use them for such cases (including outside ref tags) to inexperienced users. We should probably investigate the feasibility of making this case behave like the general case, but as that involves the interaction of mw:Extension:ProofreadPage and mw:Extension:Cite, and parsing rules and what works inside extension content is pretty arcane to begin with, that may be a tall order. --Xover (talk) 09:01, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

@Peteforsyth: Put crudely, before about September 2018 transcluded pages were essentially assembled with a space inserted between each one. No ifs or buts. Needless to say this messed up hyphenated words across individual pages.

Then came this change which mindlessly removed both the inserted space above and any adjacent hyphen. Great for English but (as you will see from discussion in the above change) a bit of a nuisance for certain cases in Chinese and German. And tough in the rare cases where you really wanted that hyphen to appear!

Cautious use of {{hws}}/{{hwe}} or {{lps}}/{{lpe}} can result in robust operation in all circumstances as use of these templates bypasses any so-called smart system handling—and as such it would be my personal recommendation to use them in all circumstances where you do not of absolute certainty know that you do not need to do so. My 2¢ 114.78.202.244 12:49, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Editing of certain texts

How should I deal with texts in which a new text starts immediately after the previous text, causing there are 2 distinct text to be transcribed on related pages? An example will be Page:Acts of the Parliament of India 1955.pdf/121, in which I would like to first deal with the lower Untouchability (Offences) Act, 1955, many thanks.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:06, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

@廣九直通車: You want labelled section transclusion. --Xover (talk) 13:23, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

I believe that the the page that Xover referred to contains a lot of interesting information, but I personally do not understand there a bit although I often use sections here :-) I would suggest to have a look at some pages where the sections are used and learn there. The most common way is dividing the page into sections using ##s1##, ##s2## etc. If you need to end a section before another one starts (usually not necessary), you can do so using ####. An example is here. For an example of transclusion you can have a look here. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 22:38, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: You are entirely correct. I was too hasty here, and that page is way too technical to be very useful as user guidance on this. Mea culpa! @廣九直通車: Look at Jan's much more useful summary of how this works, and do please feel free to ask for assistance if you need it. Labelled section transclusion is kinda complicated to get started with, but starts to make sense after you've used it a bit. PS. My pings to you don't appear to get delivered. I'm not sure whether that's my web browser going off course somewhere around 东莞市 or mediawiki's Notify extension, but you may want to be aware of it. --Xover (talk) 06:26, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

 Comment The relevant local page for help is Help:Transclusion#How to transclude a portion of a page.

The #### methodology only works if you have the gadget turned on as it manipulates <section> begin and end tags. Personally I still use sections tags as that is my preference for tidy work, they make biographical works in the Page: ns difficult to read. — billinghurst sDrewth 06:35, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

I see no mention of a gadget at that link -- which gadget are you referring to? I use the #### methodology, but if there is a better way I'd like to learn it. I don't remember turning on a gadget to be able to do that...but maybe I did, a long time ago. -Pete (talk) 18:52, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

@Peteforsyth: It's the rather confusingly named "Easy LST" in the "Editing tools for Page: namespace" group in the Gadgets section of your preferences. The Labelled section transclusion extension actually uses html/xml-like start and end tags; the gadget lets you use the much simpler ####-style and converts them back and forth with the html-style tags when the page is saved / loaded for editing. The actual code lives at MediaWiki:Gadget-Easy LST.js, and as you can see it's a bit of a hack. Albeit a hack that has proven remarkably robust and problem free (my hat's off to GOIII!). --Xover (talk) 20:05, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

• So, I bet the result will be something like this, with the page requiring labelled section transclusion like this?廣九直通車 (talk) 04:33, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

  @廣九直通車: Yup, got it in one. You'll typically want to label every part of a given page, because the other parts will have the same problem (parts of multiple works on the same physical page) and needs the same solution. And you almost never need the #lst syntax: it's the native / generic syntax of the MediaWiki extension that adds labelled section transclusion, but the ProofreadPage extension (what provides the <pages …> tag) has specific support for this that makes it easier to use.

  ⁠• fromsection=…: on the page in the "from" parameter, only include this named section

  ⁠• tosection=…: on the page in the "to" parameter, only include this named section

  ⁠• onlysection=…: on all the pages in the range given by the "from" and "to" parameters, only include this named section (rarely needed)

  It's a little complicated, but it is a lot powerful. :) --Xover (talk) 08:10, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

  It is how we manage all our many biographical dictionaries and encyclopaedia: 70 volumes of DNB, EB1911, DAB, etc. As a general comment, we would not typically use the s1, s2, ... format for our sections, there we match them to the {{SUBPAGENAME}} as that allows for a lot more reliable and easier transclusion. For example, Page:Thom's Irish who's who.djvu/72.

  Very rarely use {{#section}} especially not in a raw format, typically templated in something like Template:Authority reference where we have to do some real magic to get the desired results. — billinghurst sDrewth 08:34, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Question on US copyrights regarding foreign translated works and URAA

Hi to all! I again have a question regarding US copyrights for foreign works. Now my question relates to translated works, for which the copyright, AFAIK, is "constructed" from copyrights contributed by two parties: the first — copyright introduced by author of the original work from which the translation was made; the second — copyright contributed by translator of the work. And the question is: regarding copyright in the US for some tranlated work, which was created and published outside of the US completely in both parts (when both original and translation were published outside of the US) — how the total copyright state, and possible copyright restoration by URAA, is evaluated for this work — which of following options is used:

1) separately for both those contributions of copyright (one from original author and one from translator), and complete copyright state is summarized from both statuses, and possible 95-year copyright term expiration for any part is also taken in account;

2) or, the translation is evaluated as a whole, and its copyright status in US determined based only whether the translated work was as a whole in copyright on URAA date, and whether 95-year term for that translation has expired by now.

To make my question more clear, I also provide some specific case where this question makes a difference.

There is a work by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin — a newspaper article about Vladimir Lenin, that article was written by Stalin in Russian and published in 1924 year in the newspaper Pravda ("Truth"). The copyright for this work expired in the US on January 1 of this (2020) year since the 95-year term from publication date (1924) has expired, notwithstanding that the copyright in Russia has not yet expired, because Russia uses 70-year PMA term, with addition of 4 years for Great Patriotic war participants, so in Russia copyright for this work expires only in 1953 + 74 + 1 = 2028 year.

Also I have found a translation of this work to the Moksha language (one of languages of national minorities of Russia), that translation was created by anonymous author(s) and published in some Soviet Moksha-language magazine in 1936.

So, if: 1) to evaluate US copyright statuses of original work and translation, and summarize that statuses, then what we get:

1. The copyright of the original work by Stalin has expired in the US, though still has not expired in Russia.

2. The copyright status of the anonymous translation: it had expired in Russia on the URAA date of January 1, because by Russian laws of that time, 50-year protection term from publication date was applied for anonymous works, so its copyright had to expire in 1936 + 50 + 1 = 1987 year. So the copyright, contributed by translation itself, should not be restored by the URAA.

Finally, since both those copyrights are now invalid in the US (the author's one has expired and the translation's was not restorable under URAA terms), summarized copyright must be considered as invalid as well.

But, if: 2) to evaluate copyright status for work as a whole, then:

That particular translation taken as a whole, was copyrighted in Russia on the URAA date of January 1, 1996, since Stalin's works were generally (including that Russian original, and that translation being considered) under copyright, because 54-year term (50 years PMA basically + 4 years for Great Patriotic war participants) had not yet expired, so if treated as a whole, its copyright should be restored by the URAA, and should get standard 95-year protection term provided by US laws.

So, from the answer to this question the decision depends, whether the translation has expired copyright in the US now, or it is protected until 1936 + 95 + 1 = 2032 year (that is, even later than the copyright expires in Russia)?

I have failed to find myself any information how this case is treated by legal provisions of the US, so any help from any learners of the US copyright is greatly appreciated. --Nigmont (talk) 22:34, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

If the translation was copyrighted in the Soviet Union in 1996, it was restored. I don't see any way around it being restored, since it was copyrighted.--Prosfilaes (talk) 03:34, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@Prosfilaes: "Hmm." The translation's Russian copyright expired in 1987 (anonymous = pub + 50). Stalin's original will expire in Russia in 2028 (pma. 70). As I understand it, the two copyright terms run independently for translations (as opposed to collaborative works like movies etc.). Thus, on the URAA date in 1996, the translation was in the public domain in the source country and not restored; and the original was in copyright in the source country and restored to a pub. + 95 US term that expired on January 1, 2020 (published in 1924). Only the parts of the translation that are separably Stalin's work were covered by the URAA restoration, and even those expired when the US copyright on the original expired. Where am I going astray here? --Xover (talk) 07:46, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't think the copyright on derivative works is separable like that, but I have nothing to cite one way or the other.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:00, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Meh. What's the world coming to when you can't rely on Prosfilaes to give you the authoritative answer on these things! :)

But, ok, it does seem like the crux on this issue is whether the original author's work is separable from the translation's author's work for copyright purposes; which is, I think, the issue Nigmont was trying to highlight. And when even Prosfilaes doesn't know, the bottom line is probably that we can't give a definitive answer for this.

But I'll try to do a bit of "reasoning out loud" in case it's useful (including for sparking definitive arguments against my conclusion).

A translation is a derivative work of the original. The right to make derivative works is an exclusive right granted to the author of the original, and you need a license (in some form) to be able to make a derivative work (like a translation) from someone else's work. But the derivative work does create its own, new, copyright for the new work. This is why we have translations that are still in copyright even if the original's has expired. This, of course, does not supersede or invalidate the original copyright: both copyrights exist concurrently. There is also no general case that the original author's copyright extends to the new work: an unauthorised translation can be blocked (permission withheld) by the original author, but the original author cannot commercially exploit the translation (the translator's original contribution).

For a translation, that includes but modifies (translates) the whole of the original work, it is not very obvious that there are two distinct works in play. But consider something like painting or sculpture where one may repurpose bits and pieces of an original work, or music where one samples a small part or theme from an original to include in a much larger musical composition. Sean Combs (Puff Daddy) sampling Jimmy Page's guitar on "Kashmir" as a prime example: Jimmy Page and Led Zeppelin does not have any claim to most of "Come With Me", but does own the guitar riff and both could and very likely would have sued if there was no permission or license deal (this is common in the music field).

This argues strongly, to me, that there is nothing inherent to derivative works as such that make them inexplicably muddled together: so long as the derivative work contains distinguishable components with separate authorship, each author can and does retain an individual copyright for those parts. So any argument to the contrary would have to be based on the intrinsic properties of a translation, as distinct from derivative works in general.

And here we come to the concept of "separability". In the context of deciding what is eligible for copyright protection (original expression) and what is merely dictated by function and thus not eligible for copyright protection, the courts have applied a "separability test". For an ornate wooden chair, or a display case with various arrangements of flowers, design elements that necessarily follow from the object's function (being a chair, being a picture frame to hang on the wall, etc.) are not eligible for copyright protection, no matter how ornate or their artistic merit, unless they can be separated from the functional object of which they are part. There's a whole lot of nuance and detail to this (does it need to be physically possible to separate them, or is it sufficient to merely be able to imagine the element separately?), but the salient point is that the courts saw separability as a central test to distinguish between different parts of a work (those that are eligible for copyright and those that are not).

And, given we accept that distinct copyrights can exist for distinct parts of the same work, this issue for me becomes just such a "separability" question. Can we identify distinctly the parts of the translation that are the work of the original author and which are the work of the translator? To me it seems fairly obvious that the ideas and the ways to express them are the original author's, and the specific choice of words and idiomatic phrasing belongs to the translator, and that the two are distinct and distinguishable entities.

The counter-position would have to be that they are either collaborative works (where you can at best identify a proportion, but not assign each part to a specific author) or collective works (like a motion picture, where all parts, while distinguishable, are necessary to make the final product). But for a translation of a text, neither of these are a good fit. The original and the translation were produced entirely independently of the other, and each can be exploited entirely independently of the other. The two have different audiences and markets, and are not packaged together (except insofar as one was derived from the other).

Any thoughts or arguments would be welcome; and we will run into this issue occasionally so it would be useful to have an answer. --Xover (talk) 08:30, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: Okay. I'm not entirely convinced, but it is a good case, and I won't challenge it.--Prosfilaes (talk) 08:17, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Bleh! If you're not convinced, then I'm not convinced. But let's call the above then "the best I can come up with" as a disclaimer. If anybody comes across something that directly addresses the issue (in the Copyright Compendium or some such), I would very much appreciate a pointer. --Xover (talk) 08:35, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Unexpected effect with flex box

On this page, the two poems at the bottom are both ten lines long and both are size "fine block," so the flex box ought to align them perfectly -- but one is a little lower than the other, how come? Levana Taylor (talk) 21:35, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm no expert in the div formatting you used, but the padding seems different for the two columns; have I fixed the problem? -Pete (talk) 22:16, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it’s fine now, and I still don’t know why ... Levana Taylor (talk) 22:23, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

While I don't know all the ins and outs of the div tag, padding is like a margin. When one column has a 12px padding and the other had 20px, that means the latter was "pushed in" 8 pixels more than the former. -Pete (talk) 22:40, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Maybe this helps? If you want to specify padding for top, bottom, left, or right, you can do so...but if you don't, I believe the simple "padding" attribute affects all four sides equally. -Pete (talk) 22:42, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

The CSS box model, and the various parts of it you can manipulate using CSS.

In case it's useful for someone… (I think both of you know this stuff already)

In the CSS box model, "padding" is the area between the border of the notional box (the div element) and its contents, while the "margin" is the area between the box and its surrounding elements. Such a box has padding, border, and margin; and all three have a width (the border is most often 0; that is, it is invisible and takes up no space). Borders have different syntax in CSS, but for both padding and margin the shorthand syntax is either padding: top right bottom left, padding: top&bottom left&right, or padding: all. That is, if you give it four values they will apply to the four sides, starting with the top and going clockwise around the box; if you give it two, the first applies to the top and bottom, and the second applies to the left and right; and if you give it a single value it applies to all four sides.

The long form for these are actually of the form margin-left: 1em and padding-top: 12px (for all four sides, and for both margin and padding). These may be easier to remember, but are a little less convenient, especially when used inline.

Once you're into using Flexbox and other advanced stuff there is an infinity of details to keep in mind—like whether adjacent boxes' margins collapse or stack—but just the essence of margin, border, and padding are easy enough once you learn them and are widely applicable. --Xover (talk) 09:02, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Issue with Djvu (text one page shifted)

I uploaded a converted Djvu and made an index (Index:The Carnegie institute and library of Pittsburgh (1916).djvu), but the Djvu text is off by one page. What would be the best way to fix this?

Thanks, Crocojim18 (talk) 01:11, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

@Crocojim18: The easiest way is probably to let me know and I'll regenerate it for you. You can do it yourself, of course, but it's a lot of technical fiddling so I don't usually suggest that as the first course of action (but I'm happy to help any way I can if anybody wants to dig into it!). In any case, this was an instance of phab:T219376 and the fix is to regenerate the DjVu from the source scans without the pages that trigger the problem (it's triggered by invalid hidden text layers attached to some pages, and it's usually the calibration page inserted before the start of the book). I've uploaded a fixed version. --Xover (talk) 07:27, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Okay! Thank you!! Crocojim18 (talk) 16:34, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Node-count limit exceeded?

I think this issue needs no description. Anyone, please visit THIS PAGE and tell me how I can fix this. Thanks in advance. — Ineuw (talk) 10:05, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

@Ineuw: Drop the table formatting. All you need for this is a blank line between entries and two between letters (i.e. when switching from the As to the Bs). See Page:Merchant of Venice (1923) Yale.djvu/129 for an example. If you absolutely can't stand the amount of whitespace between entries (I say you shouldn't worry about it, but to each his own), you can break entries with a <br /> instead (it won't trip this particular Mediawiki limit). That index based on tables or other such complex approaches is never going to work. --Xover (talk) 10:32, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Much thanks. I got it and will fix it. — Ineuw (talk) 11:11, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Template:Nornabr

I've started transcribing a dictionary which uses a ton of abbreviations throughout, and I thought a template to provide tooltips with the meanings of the abbreviations throughout would come in handy to the casual reader. To save me having to write the definition of the same abbreviations over and over again, I thought a custom template that invokes Template:Abbr would be more terse and less error prone.

I've set up a template, and it seems to work alright for the abbreviations I have entered so far. However, it is error prone - any abbreviations I forget to include in the list defined in the template still display with the unknown abbreviation and, unless I check every single one by hovering over it, I can't see at a glance which abbreviations aren't included in the list (or if I have spelled them wrong). So, outputting an error in place of the unknown abbreviation would be the sensible thing to do.

I realise the naïve way to set this up would be to have two lists of abbreviations, and check against both each time - once for checking for an error, and one to get the correct text for the tooltip - but I'd prefer to only maintain a single list if possible, to make it easier ad less error prone. Is there a way to set this up so that only one list of abbreviations has to be kept? I feel like I could do with a variable to store the result of the #switch (although I assume that would mean programming a module, rather than a template?)

Forgive me if this is an ignorant question to be asking, I'm still a template noob. And hopefully I'm asking in the right place - feel free to redirect me if not. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 17:46, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

You could also make the switch a second template (e.g. {{Nornabr/switch}}) and use an construction something like {{#if:{{Nornabr/switch|{{{1}}}}}||Unknown abbreviation}} to flag an error from the main template when the switch sub template doesn't find a match.

A module would probably be a valid solution too. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 20:02, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Of course! What a good idea, I shall try that. Thank you very much!— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 21:17, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Spam filter blocking edit of Sinews of Peace

I am a long-time Wiki editor for some 16 years, yet I am blocked from editing Sinews of Peace by a spam filter!?!

Currently, at the foot of the page:

==Video cuts of speech==
Does not agree with an edited video
http://w w w . y o u t u b e . c o m /watch?v=jvax5VUvjWQ
has a different order

But this link is broken (YouTube use account does not exist)

So, I tried to fix this by appending:

The above link is broken (YouTube account no longer exists); try:
<w w w . y o u t u b e . c o m / watch?v=DZBqqzxXQg4 Introduction by President Harry S Truman, Churchill's speech starts at 08:42.>

Note: I did not attempt to delete the previous link (even though broken) because it has the attached comment that the speech was not identical to the transcript (different order of presentation) and I have not attempted to transcribe or audit the the audio of this YouTube video and compare it to the transcript. Presumably this would be a worthwhile endeavour for such a historically important speech.

Anyway, I was advised to edit MediaWiki:Spam-whitelist - but I am blocked from editing that too.

Note also: I deliberately mangled the YouTube URLs to get past the spam filter, but the correct URLs will be obvious to homo sapiens...

Surely I have been editing WikiMedia sites for long enough. How is it that I am having to deal with this?

I appreciate some help.

TIA
Enquire (talk) 04:00, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

@Enquire: It's not you, it's Youtube. :) All of youtube.com is blacklisted, so any individual video needs to be requested for whitelisting. You can post such requests on the administrator's noticeboard (include a good description of what page you want to use it on, and for what purpose, so the admins can tell whether the intended use is policy-compliant or not).

However, looking at this particular work it looks like that speech is not actually in the public domain or compatibly licensed (in addition to being unsourced and other problems; I'll list it at copyright discussions shortly) so there probably isn't much point in requesting a whitelist entry for this. --Xover (talk) 10:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I added my comments copyright discussions. However, if there is a blanket YouTube block, I do wonder how the broken YouTube link was posted previously. Enquire (talk) 22:22, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

How to add the "LS" chop on legislation?

For example, are there any templates for this chop? I mean that "LS" in the circle on pages like Page:Terrorism (Suppression of Bombings) Act 2007.pdf/2. As a common feature of common law legislation, I bet there should be some sort of templates like this? If not, please advise how to do this, many thanks.廣九直通車 (talk) 05:27, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Create the image and store it at Commons. Not sort of thing for which we would typically create a template — billinghurst sDrewth 08:18, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

@廣九直通車: I took a quick look at the options for doing something fancy here, but that seems to be a non-starter right now. There's no suitable character or function in Unicode, which we otherwise could have used. Mediawiki also doesn't support inline SVG or some other way to create vector graphics of the kind needed for this. And I found no signs this is likely to change any time soon.

However, as an experiment, I have created a very simple SVG version of this locus sigilli and uploaded it to Commons at File:locus sigilli.svg, and then wrapped it in a local template that just takes a size specification (any valid mediawiki image size specification) as an argument: {{locus sigilli}}. Thus, to get a 16px wide version you'd use {{locus sigilli|16px}} →

The default is 60px: But you can request any size, like 120px:

I'm not sure this is something a template is well suited for. For one thing, only the modern anglosphere acts use this particular simple locus sigilli; historically they are more likely to be ornate graphical jobbies that will need to be handled with individual images from the specific work. For the ones that are simple enough to generate in this way, I'm not sure there is sufficient variation that using a template is simpler than just using the image directly.

That being said, using a template does let us dynamically choose some aspects of the locus. We can set the background color, the stroke color of the circle, and the text color. We can do things like offer variants with "LS" or "L.S.". We can also offer different designs within the scope of simple geometric shapes. Due to limitations of the approach we will mostly have to create multiple images for the variants and have the template choose between them (similar to {{custom rule}}), which is non-optimal but feasible.

In any case, feel free to try it out; and if you have thoughts about extended use cases, do let me know. And you should of course also feel free to use the SVG image from Commons directly. --Xover (talk) 11:29, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

OK, many thanks to your effort to create the image and template. I literally have no knowledge on either SVGs and templates, so many thanks to your assistance.廣九直通車 (talk) 08:35, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Parentheses

Hi. Could anyone who understands more about parentheses than I do please take a look at this page? Thanks. CharlesSpencer (talk) 13:58, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

CharlesSpencer Have a look now – I added another couple of columns in the table, and also made the brackets slightly taller too. Hopefully this is what you're looking for.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 18:16, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Griceylipper, thank you so much - that is perfect! CharlesSpencer (talk) 10:21, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

@Griceylipper, @CharlesSpencer: {{brace2}} is a lot neater as a curly bracket. And personally, I wouldn't think that it is necessary to have the text so so so small. We have more flexibility than straight replication. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:31, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Hws / hwe edge-case

For the dictionary I am transcribing, I have an odd formatting edge-case involving {{hws}} & {{hwe}}. The relevant pages and transclusion are here:

• Page 137 (11): should display “ammel- (note the spacing)
• Page 138 (12): should display tree”
• Transclusion: should display “ammel-tree”, but I get “ ammel-tree” (with a preceding space, for some reason). If I use the spacing template in the second parameter of {{hws}} or {{hwe}}, things don't look good on the page: “<span title="ammel-tree">ammel- on the first page, and <span title="ammel-tree">tree” on the second. I also can't leave out {{hws}} and {{hwe}} either, as transcluding the pages consumes the hyphen, which is intended to stay!

The spacing here is important, as it conveys the meaning to the reader that this is another word referenced in the dictionary. So it is important to preserve this in the text. I wouldn't be so bothered about making sure the spacing works in the tooltip. For spacing I've been using {{nornsp}}, which is just my own template that invokes {{letter-spacing}} without having to specify a spacing of 0.08em every time.

Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 00:49, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

hws and hwe are just tools to make things easier when it can be easier. Don't let them trap you, the output is what is important. I have put the code into place. — billinghurst sDrewth 03:57, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

That's a big help, thanks so much!— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 04:17, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

@Griceylipper: Since the solution based on {{hws}}/{{hws}} turned out to require a bit of fiddling in this case, I've tried a different approach (1, 2) using {{peh}} which makes for much simpler code. As best I can tell it gives the results you were after; but which approach to prefer comes down to, I think, whichever variant matches your mental model best. As Billinghurst points out, hws/hwe are just utilities: the important thing to keep in mind is that MediaWiki/ProofreadPage will join two pages with a space character, unless it ends with a hyphen, in which case it will not insert a space and additionally remove the hyphen. {{peh}} takes advantage of this to give the desired results when a page ends in a word that should be hyphenated. --Xover (talk) 05:49, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi I'm on mobile.

Can I still edit here? What can I work on I'm confused. SugarredHumpbackWhales (talk) 11:08, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

@SugarredHumpbackWhales: You can still edit using mobile, there are absolutely no rules against it. However, you may find the editing interface on mobile is not that easy to use, because mobile screens generally do not have room for the side-by-side layout that is normally used to verify text against scanned works, especially when the on-screen keyboard is shown.

In terms of what you can edit, perhaps Validating text (checking already proofread text) might be easier than proofreading from scratch, as this generally requires much less typing and you might find it easier to do on mobile. But, again, there are no restrictions on what you may or may not do because you are using a mobile device. There are a few small validation tasks at Wikisource:WikiProject Validate, there are many proofread pages at the current collaboration (Leaves of Grass) that are yet to be validated, and all the many works in Category:Index Proofread are open for validation (any yellow pages need validation - once validated they will turn green). Inductiveload—talk/contribs 11:24, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Make a text exportable

Hello, I was wondering how to set properly a text for it to be exportable (into pdf/ePub for instance), and how to make it exportable then using templates. I haven't found so far an example of a text exportable, even looking into the texts of famous authors, while there are tons of exportable texts in the french wikisource. Thank you :) — Polochinoc (talk) 15:04, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

There is nothing in particular to do to make a text exportable: the "WS-export" tool is enabled on all pages. There should be a export link for each of ePub, Mobi and PDF in the left sidebar (or top right in mobile view). For example, this is the ePub for Agrarian Justice: https://tools.wmflabs.org/wsexport/tool/book.php?lang=en&format=epub-3&page=Agrarian_Justice

When aiming for export, avoid using certain formatting, especially fixed widths which might not fit on an ereader screen. For example, setting an element to have width:60em; will extend off the screen on most devices, prefer max-width:60em; to allow it to shrink to fit small screens. A quick check of Agrarian Justice indicates this work should be fine. Generally speaking, if it looks OK in Layout 2, it's probably be fine on an ereader.

Curating works for export is something that English WS does not do much of: there is no category or other list of "known-good" exportable works that I know of, or any procedure to check works export nicely. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 15:32, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

There is a new project at Meta (+ accompanying discussion) aiming at export improvement. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 16:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't see the column at the left, thank you. Okay I understand, you don't have a category that can be added to a text, so that is it is known "good for export". By the way, I downloaded Agrarian Justice as pdf and saw it didn't keep the center alignment for the titles. But otherwise, it did render it pretty well. I'll check the pages as well — Polochinoc (talk) 16:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, yes,the PDF using the side-bar link does lose the centre (and right) formatting, and seems to use a different for the tables too. The sidebar actually uses the "ElectronPdf" tool. Ws-export also can do PDFs, which does seem get the centre/right formatting right: https://wsexport.wmflabs.org/tool/book.php?lang=en&format=pdf-a4&page=Agrarian_Justice. Hopefully the project Jan linked above will address some of these quirks. I'd say that for me, generally, ePub and Mobi are the critical targets, since they allow the device to reflow text as needed for the small screen. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 18:04, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

@Polochinoc, @Inductiveload: I think the Tech Team will appreciate if you write them what you observe that needs to be improved. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 07:13, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

I think, for a large proportion of enWS issues, problems are local:

• Their first example of misalignment was Page:Trees Kilmer.djvu/9, which was using a <center> tag to centre a bordered div. This should be CSS margin:auto;. Possibly, WS-export could fix this on the fly, but it's better to just use the right markup in the first place. Agrarian Justice had this too with the tables, which used {| align=center instead of {| style="margin:auto;".
• The same work (Trees and Other Poems) also does not use {{page break}}, so the ebook doesn't contain hard page breaks in the right place, so it has to split the div across pages as it doesn't know better. I don't think this is a defect in the WS-export, it's just how ePub/ereaders work when there's a div that won't fit on a page.
• Works that use wide fixed-width formatting are likewise going to break ebook formatting through no particular fault of the export layer.
• ElectronPDF should IMO, just, not be used at WS. It doesn't handle multipart works, so it's basically useless for any work with subpages. Agrarian Justice was just lucky in that it doesn't have subpages. Why not just use the WS-export PDF engine, which handles subpages and at least will be consistent with the eBub/Mobi outputs in terms of what pages are included? Plus ElectronPDF seems to strip quite a lot of a formatting, which probably makes sense when printing Wikipedia articles, but not so much for WS. What appears in the left sidebar is at least partly under local enWS control: WS-export options are from MediaWiki:Gadget-WSexport.js. I'm unsure ElectronPDF even maintained: mw:PDF_export says it's deprecated.
• Making exported works first-class citizens like frWS (which has very high ebook engagement rates) does with clear icons in headers, prominent icons on all front-page works and categorisation into Category:Bon pour export is again down to local policy and not tool defects.
• Having such a category would enable us to present an OPDS catalog of exportable works, so WS can be integrated directly into ebook readers like MoonReader+ and managers Calibre as a "net library". As it stands, an ODPS catalog of enWS works is likely to present rather variable-quality results, as not all works have been made with export in mind.
• On-wiki instructions for eBooks are scattered and hugely dated: Wikisource:eBook and Help:Reading offline. Our first suggestion for finding an ebook is to find one for sale!

I'll try to distil some examples that I think are tooling-related and report them to the project. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 09:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Regarding Agrarian Justice… {| align=center is wikimarkup, not HTML, so it's not really the equivalent of using <center>…</center> (in 2020?!?): it's a "bug" (fsvo) in Mediawiki more than a local issue. Not that we can't or shouldn't work around it for the benefit of our (ebook) users, but fair's fair.

Where is it you think there should be a {{page break}} that there isn't? The work does use them in what to me appears roughly the standard way, and the ePub looks fine here.

And generally, if there are significant local issues at enWS then it would seem a good first step would be to document them somewhere so we can learn and adapt. A list of observed problems, and a set of derived "Do's and Dont's", would be most helpful for those of us who almost never look at an ePub version. And it may show opportunity for making templates and other tools "ePub friendly" by default where they aren't today. --Xover (talk) 10:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

• Sure, I meant alignment issues in general: center tags and align=center both don't work in ebooks. It's really not the ebook layer's fault that that alignment failed in either case. Perhaps it could be intercepted and tweaked by WS-export, but we can also just use margin:auto locally and it's done. I made a few changes to Agrarian Justice to tidy up the ePub (the only real issue was the table alignment), and it exports well (suitable for Category:Good for export, I say!).
• Re page breaks: I meant in Trees and Other Poems (which is indefinitely protected): probably in the main namespace, between the "non-flowed" front matter pages. This would (probably?) resolve the issue reported in the meta project: meta:Community_Tech/Ebook_Export_Improvement#Formatting_&_Styles (the alignment failure being caused by a center tag, now resolved).
• I did recently propose a list of suggestions for for making our works export-friendly, but didn't get support because a very small number of works have formatting that's not easy to ebook-ify: Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2020-01#Curating_works_for_export. No-one seemed to support (or oppose for that matter) the idea of having a frWS-style "known good for export" process of some sort. I'd be more than happy to start the discussion again.
• I have collected some material on some things for consideration when formatting ebooks: User:Inductiveload/Sandbox/Formatting for export Inductiveload—talk/contribs 10:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

@Clockery, @Londonjackbooks, @EncycloPetey, @BethNaught, @Beleg Tâl: Note that in order to address the ebook problem flagged above I have modified the (featured) text at Trees and Other Poems to add {{pb}} between distinct pages of the front matter (particularly those that feature non-reflowable content, like the title page). Please let me know if you have any concerns or objections to this.

@Inductiveload: I think a quality control process that ends up with verified good ebook exports tagged with Category:Good for export is a good idea, at the very least so long as there is a significant chance that our works are not good for ebook export by default. Perhaps such checks should be incorporated into the featured text process too? --Xover (talk) 14:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! The different front matter pages now render in my ebook readers (MoonReader+ and Calibre) on separate pages. The problem noted at meta no longer occurs (unless your font size is set so large and your screen so small that the title page content simply doesn't fit on the page at all, but there's not a lot to be done about that).

Re quality control process, I think there are a two parallel aims here:

• Have some kind of process to check for the basic gotcha's for ebooks so people can check off works. I would say that egregious ebook fails are not that common, most works come out pretty well, all things considered. I can't see any critical issues on a selection of the current recent texts, for example. However, I would certainly says it's common that works can benefit from small tweaks to improve the ebook output, even after reaching validated status. Generally speaking, the tweaks are minor and don't affect the "normal" view of the work. For example, changing a "width:30em" to "max-width:30em" doesn't have any effect until the screen is narrower than 30em. I think it's rare indeed that a work is outright unsuitable for an ebook.
• Some kind of listing mechanism, e.g. a category. Categories are good because they're easy to maintain (no manual formatting), well understood, easy to reason about and, critically, easy to query automatically, e.g. for providing a library catalogue of verified ebooks. We have Validated texts and Proofread texts, but most pages there are subpages or article pages (e.g. DNB00) which will clog up the list. IMO, "good for export" entails more than just proofreading status and should also be restricted to "top-level" works that you'd expect to see in such a catalogue.

I think the most critical thing about the process is that it should 1) be easy, to encourage people to do it and expand our repertoire of verified-nice ebooks and 2) should not require onerous or invasive changes to works, even if that means some works don't ever get a "good for export" tag. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 15:35, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: I always use page breaks (generally {{ppb}}) in front matter, I think there are very few works which would not be improved by inserting these in the appropriate places. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 03:15, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

+1 and have been for years+for+ages. Where the series it is not flowing the separation of the idea is best IMNSHO emphasised with a break. — billinghurst sDrewth 05:14, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Header displayed twice in DNB page

I was visiting the Ponsonby, Henry (DNB00) page and see the header being displayed twice. Tried to fix it by removing {{DNB00}}, but in the preview it appears that removing the template results in the header not being displayed at all. Since I am not familiar with how the pages tag works, appreciate if anyone could lend a hand fixing it. Thanks in advance. ネイ (talk) 16:06, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

@ネイ, @ネイ: I'm trying to track it down. Will follow up on WS:S (there's an existing thread there). --Xover (talk) 17:12, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll have a look at that thread. ネイ (talk) 17:15, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

A question about pdf scans

In the page Help:Adding texts, it’s written that before typing the text in Wikisource, I must first upload the scan to wikimedia commons. There’s still one thing that I don’t understand though, I checked through other source like Republic of South Africa Constitution Act, 1961 and Unilateral Declaration of Independence, and I couldn’t find anywhere where they linked the scan. Do I just upload the scan to wikimedia commons without linking it anywhere on Wikisource? Also, if we enter wikimedia commons https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Constitution_of_Nepal_2015.pdf, we see that it’s not used anywhere in Wikisource. Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 11:43, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Uploading scans is still not compulsory but it is true that it is highly preferred. The works which you have linked to were added to English Wikisource long time ago (in 2006 and 2009), i. e. before the pracice of uploading scans started. For an example of a scan-backed document see e. g. The Constitution of the Czechoslovak Republic.

If you want to add a scan-backed work, you have to follow these steps:

1. Upload the scan to Commons (if it is in public domain both in the United States and its source country) or here (if it is public domain only in the United States).
2. Found an index page (example).
3. Profread the individual pages
4. Transclude the work into the main namespace.

These steps are generelly not too dificult, but they may seem difficult to a novice contributor. For these reasons do not hesitate to aks for help at any stage of the work, you will always find help here. If you upload the scan, I can found the index page for you if needed. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 13:51, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply! I still have one question though. The text I would like to add is the 1965 constitution of Rhodesia, and it can be found here: https://www.worldstatesmen.org/Rhodesia_1965.pdf It should be public domain in the U.S. because it’s a government document, but it’s source country doesn’t exist anymore. Should I upload it to Wikisource or to wikimedia commons? If to wikimedia commons, should the index page be in Wikisource or in wikimedia commons, thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 09:34, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Oh, and one more question, in this source the chapters don’t always begin on a new page. How will the Transclusion work? I was recommended to search on splitting it, which I haven’t done yet, but even then you have chapters that start in the middle of the page. Thanks in advance, RiverThames27 (talk) 09:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello? -RiverThames27 (talk) 14:20, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@RiverThames27: Unfortunately, I am not able to answer the question about Rhodesia. Maybe @Xover: or @Prosfilaes: could help.

As for chapters which do not begin on a new page: in such a case you must devide the page into sections and then transclude only the particular section.

The simplest way to divide the page is to use:

## s1 ##
Text of section one
## s2 ##
Text of section two

To transclude the text upto some section or from some section you use for example

<pages index="name of book.djvu" from=6 to=9 fromsection=s2 tosection=s1 />

or

<pages index="name of book.djvu" include=6 onlysection=s2 />

If needed, I can do the transclusion after the text is proofread. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 15:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much! -RiverThames27 (talk) 15:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Oh and btw, I searched for ways to split the pdf pages since it's scanned in such a way that it shows 2 pages on 1 page, and all I have found was on extracting individual pages, and the only one that actually was what I was seacrhing for required a payed version of Acrobat Reader DC which I simply don't have. Since new chapters in any case begin in the middle of the page, would it be acceptable to upload this one despite the fact that one page actually contains several pages? And I would prefer to upload it to wikimedia commons so that it can be referred to in other wikis as well, but if ends up being copyrighted in it's country of origion (which doesn't exist anymore) I guess I will have to uplaod to wikisource. Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 16:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I am very sorry, that is another thing I am not able to help with. I know Xover often helps people with scans, but according to the information on his user page he has been quite busy recently. But you can try to ask him on his talk page where he is more likely to answer. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 17:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I've used gscan2pdf to split the side-by-side pages of the PDF. I uploaded the result to Commons and made a quick index at Index:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf. Based on the wording that includes "antecedents of Zimbabwe" in the Commons commons:Template:PD-Zimbabwe template, I think it'll be OK at Commons. The file lacks an OCR text layer, but I'm not set up to deal with that at the moment. In the meantime, there should be an OCR button in your toolbar (which seems not to work), and there's a Google OCR button that you can enable here: Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 17:09, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much! -RiverThames27 (talk) 18:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@RiverThames27: On the copyright situation… Rhodesia was strictly speaking a British colony at the time this work was published, which would mean a Crown Copyright term of 50 years from publication. However, I would be inclined to say Zimbabwe is the successor in interest and the governing law; and in Zimbabwe the text of laws and related material is not eligible for copyright. The same is true in the US. That is, worst case (British law controlling), the copyright expired in 1965 + 50 = 2015. In other words, Commons should be fine. Oh, and the Index: is always here on Wikisource; we just outsource hosting the scan files themselves to Commons.

@Inductiveload: I'm tooled up for OCR with DjVu files, so I made a .djvu with text layer at File:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.djvu. I didn't bother making a separate index for it (if you prefer that one we can move the index and pages over; but if the Google OCR results are good enough it's probably not worth the effort).

@Jan.Kamenicek: Thanks for the ping. Right now my time is more unpredictable than all that limited, but I'm leaving the notice up because that situation will change based on the IRL situation in my neck of the woods. --Xover (talk) 18:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: Thanks for the reply! About the OCR, I have already started typing one of the pages manually. Should I now just let it do that automatically? Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 19:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@RiverThames27: That's up to you: the point of OCR is to save you manual typing.

PDF and DjVu-format files can contain a hidden text layer that Mediawiki knows to extract. When the file has such a text layer you will find the text box for each page prepopulated with that text. In addition, we have gadgets that give you an OCR button in the toolbar on each page. When you press the button the page image is sent to a server that runs OCR on it and sends back the results. In either case you end up with some text in the text field, it's just that in the latter case you had to press an extra button to get it.

The PDF file that you're currently transcribing against doesn't have a hidden text layer, so you'll need to use the OCR button. If you're happy with the results it gives you then there's no real reason to do anything else. If the results are very poor that way, we can try to move the Index: and Page: pages over to use the DjVu file which does have a text layer (that was made with a different OCR engine). It can some times make a big difference, but most of the time it's just six with one and half a dozen with the other. There's usually not a big reason to do so, I just happened to already have it processing before I saw that Inductiveload had already uploaded a PDF.

And if you want to type everything manually that's of course fine too. --Xover (talk) 19:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Great! Of course, I'll be happy for the existing index to be migrated to the DjVu. Google OCR seems pretty good, but it's friendly to have the text layer. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 21:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@Xover, @Inductiveload: About migrating to the DjVu, is it just moving the page with Special:MovePage/Index:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf to Index:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.djvu, and then repeat the same with the other pages that already exist, or is there more to it? Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 10:23, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

For this text it’s necessary since when I tried the OCR it recognised for the top part just the numbers, and for the bottom part just the text (it was a page from the table of contents) -RiverThames27 (talk) 10:25, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

It's better for an admin to do it, otherwise it makes a bit of a mess of redirects. For the OCR, try the Google OCR button, it's works well for the contents pages in this work. You can enable it under "Gadgets" in your preferences (look near the bottom). Inductiveload—talk/contribs 10:34, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I used the google OCR button and it’s actually quite good. It didn’t put it in the templates so it was all in one line at the beginning, but I have sorted this out. Thanks @Inductiveload:! -RiverThames27 (talk) 12:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@RiverThames27: No OCR is going to give you a finished page; it'll always be just the text and with various levels of accuracy in recognising the letters. For some works the OCR engine used can make a big difference because different engines have different strengths and weaknesses. For most works it makes little difference. If Google OCR gives reasonable results you'll probably want to stick with that. For comparison, you can trick Mediawiki into showing you the hidden text layer of a file by going to a Page: link even if it doesn't have an index. So here are page 4 and 5 from the DjVu file: 4, 5 (please don't create these pages; they're not connected to anything). As you can see these need a lot of manual work too. If you you still want to switch to the DjVu then just let me know and I'll move the Index: and Page: pages over for you. --Xover (talk) 13:48, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: I think the pdf version is good enough, google ocr is quite good in detecting text and I think the things that I actually had to correct were minor. -RiverThames27 (talk) 15:02, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@Xover, @Inductiveload: Now all the table of contents is done. However, it shows me “This text needs to be proofread” How do I change it to “This text has been proofread but needs validating?” Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 15:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Like in pages 1,6, and 7 -RiverThames27 (talk) 15:29, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

There are some buttons under the edit window to set the page proofread status. See Help:Page status for the whole process.

┌───────────────────────────────────────┘
By the way, I have set up a template, {{CoR65 para/s}} to assist with the formatting, as those hanging paragraphs can be a bit fiddly. You can check the first few pages of the main text to see how they can be used. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 15:44, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much! And btw, what’s with the page numbering? Why is there one more page 43 after page 92? I know it links to the proper page, but why does the text say 43? Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 17:20, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

That was in the original document. It is apparently the relevant clipping from the Southern Rhodesia Government Gazette (actually a Supplement). The page numbers for those pages are "1315 (43)" and "1315 (44)", where 1315 is (probably) the issue of the Gazette and 43/4 is the page number. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 17:38, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for you reply! Should those numbers stay that way or change? And can you check if I did the page Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/12 properly? I tried to imitate what you did in Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/11, but when I did the same that you did with the a, b, c it put the text after that in boxes like pre-formatted text. Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 17:48, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

You had a couple of misaligned start (/s) and end (/e) templates. There has to be exactly one /s for each /e. I fixed up p12 and now it seems to work OK. I also added the sidenotes. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 18:03, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much! -RiverThames27 (talk) 18:46, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Btw, I started working on Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/13, and every next line starts from the very beginning of the line. How did you make it so that every line starts from the same place as the previous one? Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 19:27, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

And btw, why does the progress say “Source file needs an OCR tex layer” if some of the pages are already ready? Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 19:32, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

You have to change the first template parameter from "0" (no level) to 1, 2 or 3 depending on the depth of the outermost number.

Progress is set manually with a drop-down in the Index page when you edit it. This file has no OCR text in it (you have to use the OCR button; if it had OCR, the OCR text would load automatically when you create the page). It doesn't mean you can't proofread it. When all pages are yellow, you can change the drop-down to "Needs validation". Inductiveload—talk/contribs 20:09, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much! Now it works! Is there a way to make the side notes actually on the side like in the original text? Some of them are left side notes and others are right but it doesn’t seem to make any difference. Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 08:51, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, change {{left sidenote}} to {{right sidenote}}. Note: when "trancluded" (displayed in the main namespace), they will be rendered differently, according the the layout. Don't worry two much about perfect formatting for sidenotes, they will always be slightly different on a computer than they are on paper. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 09:07, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I mean some of them are left sidenote and others are right sidenote. They seem to look the same in practice. What’s the difference? -RiverThames27 (talk) 15:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

In the page Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/13 The first sidenote is a left sidenote and the second one is a right sidenote. What’s the difference? They look the same to me. Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 15:40, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload, @Xover: What’s the difference between a left sidenote and a right sidenote because both appear exactly the same on screen. Thanks in advance-RiverThames27 (talk) 12:09, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload, @Xover: Hello? -RiverThames27 (talk) 16:41, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@RiverThames27: Left and right sidenotes display on the left and right side of the page, respectively, in the Page: namespace. When we transclude it for presentation in the main namespace the dynamic layouts will kick in and reformat them to fit the active layout. Looking at Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/13 the two first sidenotes are indeed on the left and then right side. The second one is hard to see on my computer due to the really rather unfortunate layout problems of sidenotes in the Page: namespace, but it definitely is there and displayed to the right. Does this not happen on your computer? --Xover (talk) 07:06, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: I was editing on my ipad, so it showed all the sidenotes on top of the text. I opened it on my computer, and it's a mess! It shows the text on the left part of the screen, and the image on the right part, and they collide with each other. Also, I noticed that there is a difference between the left sidenote and the right sidenote (on my ipad, they looked the same), and when I changed the right sidenote to a right sidenote, it started overlapping with the sidenote that was above! Is there any way to show the image bellow the text? Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 11:30, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: Sorry, for some reason I didn’t notice you left the message and typed ping Inductiveload😅 -RiverThames27 (talk) 13:52, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@RiverThames27: It is a mess in the Page: namespace, sorry, nothing to be done about that. It'll look better once it gets transcluded for presentation. The problem is that Mediawiki doesn't really have support for sidenotes so we've had to create a kinda hacky workaround. You can see an example of how sidenotes will look on The Solar System/Chapter 1.

There are also buttons in the editing toolbar to switch the order of the text edit field and the scan image (in the "Proofread tools" section; looks kinda like a Tetris block or something), but in my experience only the default side-by-side layout works well in practice. --Xover (talk) 17:40, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

However, it would be nice if at least the line-height parameter were allowed to be set up manually. If the line-height were smaller than the default 140%, the sidenotes would interfere much less.--Jan Kameníček (talk) 17:50, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Xover, @Jan.Kamenicek: Thanks for the reply! I understand. Surely there’s someplace where it’s possible to request support for sidenotes, isn’t there? In meta or in Mediawiki or somewhere. -RiverThames27 (talk) 19:42, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Specific changes to the templates like {{Left sidenote}} can be asked and discussed here. As for changes to Mediawiki so that it supported sidenotes better, you can try Phabricator, but my experience with their responsiveness is not very good. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 20:01, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

@Jan.Kamenicek: setting line-height for sidenotes would require them to be divs, not spans, which would probably cause issues when they occur inside paragraphs. As they are (spans), they can't have a smaller line-height than the surrounding text. You can set it smaller in CSS, but it won't actually get smaller. It's the same reason {{smaller}} doesn't make line-height smaller, but {{smaller block}} does.

Adding display: inline-block to the span might be enough.

@RiverThames27: it's not really something that could be added from the MediaWiki side, it's more a problem finding a way to display then using HTML and CSS that works on all devices and screen sizes. Not a lot of love has been shown to them in the Page namespace, because that's a working area, the "presentation" area is in the Main namespace, where it's quite a bit better (but still not perfect).

There is a bit of scope in changing {{sidenotes begin}} for turning off one side, which would decompress the pages a bit, and then making the main column shrink to fit. Small windows will still be very tight, but might not overlap so terribly. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 20:08, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Well, I guess it will look fine🤷🏻‍♂️. It’s just weird that they the image shows up on the right side of the page, don’t they know that the text overlaps it? -RiverThames27 (talk) 12:12, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

"They" (by which I assume you mean the MediaWiki developers) probably don't really know, because we at enWS caused it though setting fixed widths (35em + 11em * 2) in the local {{sidenotes begin}} template. There's not a lot MW can do to help us that couldn't be sorted with a overhaul of the templates here at enWS first. Sadly, it'll always be a bit tricky as fitting six text columns (four sidenotes, two each for preview and scan, and two text bodies) size-by-side is always going to be a squeeze. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 12:31, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Oh. I see. Isn’t there an option to move the image though so that the text won’t overlap with the image? Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 12:38, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

There is an option to have the page vertically stacked in Edit mode (look in your preferences for the permanent setting, or there's a button in the edit toolbar to change temporarily). If you really want to have the stacked interface even when not editing, you could add the following to User:RiverThames27/common.css:

/*
 * Top/bottom layout in Page namespace
 */
.prp-page-content {
	width:100%;
	float: none;
}
.prp-page-image {
	width:80%;
	margin: 0 auto;
	float: none;
}

This is an ugly hack, but it might be good enough for your purposes. The real solutions are: 1) use a higher-resolution monitor (i.e. blame you, the victim) and, better, 2) we fix our templates. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 12:52, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

For anyone with interest in sidenotes: I have a proposal at Template_talk:Sidenotes_begin#New_approach for a change that would prevent sidenotes spilling over the page image in Page namespace. If my calculations are correct, it should be a drop-in replacement in terms of parameters. It's not a resolution to every single sidenote issue, but it's a start and doesn't require botting all 21786 users of {{sidenotes begin}}. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 14:38, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Sounds good, but I’m not really qualified to make such decisions. -RiverThames27 (talk) 09:23, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload, @Xover, @Jan.Kamenicek: Oh btw, some of the pages end with CoR65 para/e despite the fact that the paragraph continues on the next page. Will that make the text in the finished product start in a new line despite the fact that it’s the same paragraph? Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 20:03, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

An example: Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/14 -RiverThames27 (talk) 20:05, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Put the end template in the footer, and the start template on the next page in the header and it should work. The header and footer are not transcluded into the main namespace. See Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/11 for example. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 20:48, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Thank you very much! I will fix it right away. -RiverThames27 (talk) 09:32, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I put the end template on the footer just on pages where the the paragraph didn’t end and the start template on the header just on pages where the the first paragraph is actually the continuation of the paragraph on the previous page. That’s what should be done, right? And btw, what to do with pages where a word continues on the next page? For example, the word subscribe starts at the end of Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/15 and ends the beginning of Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/16. Will that effect the way it looks in the end product? I deleted the - so that it won’t show up in the end product, but they show up with a space in between? Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 09:51, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@RiverThames27: If a word is split between pages, just leave it as sub- and scribe, and Proofread Page will remove the hyphen and join the words without a space character when transcluded. If you need to preserve the hyphen of a hyphenated word (like off-campus), replace the hyphen with the template {{peh}}. You can, if you prefer, get fancy and use {{hws}}/{{hwe}}, but I don't generally recommend that (it used to be needed for all split words, but these days it's only when a word is split inside a footnote, and it is needless complexity). --Xover (talk) 11:08, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: Thank you very much! I added the hyphen back. -RiverThames27 (talk) 11:48, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: While editing the pagePage:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/20, I run into a problem with putting the title. Actually, I forgot how to do this😅, so I started searching in other pages how to do this. Then I noticed that in the page Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/13 there’s a problem with the chapters. The text Chapter III, and the title of chapter III appear, but the text part 1-composition doesn’t. Then I tried to search in the table of contents how to fix the chapter problem, and just made it worse, so I deleted it all together. However, I noticed that in Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/10 the text Chapter II and the title appear on the same line, which is also a bug that I don’t know how to fix. Can you please check what’s the problem? Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 12:50, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

You tried to use a template that only works inside the TOC table outside of a table. Just format it with {{center}} as normal text. For page /10, I just added a line after the center template opened. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 12:57, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I wonder if there’s a page for the longest discussions in ws:s/h🤔 Since this discussion is quite long😅. -RiverThames27 (talk) 13:01, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload, @Xover, @Jan.Kamenicek: Btw, about chapters that start in the middle of the page, I planned to leave this question for after all the pages are proofread, but it would be a pain to go through all the pages and fix it. I need to put the #s with s1 on the very top of the page, and them the #s with s2 just above the text Chapter <Chapter number>, right? And I only need to do this in pages where there’s a beginning of a chapter, there’s no point putting the #s with s1 on every page, right? Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 09:19, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Correct on both counts. Later, you can refer to H:Transclusion#sections, which explains how to place only that section on the final page. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 09:24, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much! -RiverThames27 (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: I tried to follow these instructions with the following page: Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/9 (the last page of the table of contents, and the first page of the actual constitution, but it just shows: 1. 1. "s1" ##. Could you please check what’s wrong? And also, should I put the label for section 2 before or after the text “IT is hereby notified that we, the Government of Rhodesia, have adopted, enacted and given to Rhodesia this Constitution.” I put it after and right before the text chapter one. And I also accidentally made it so that the text chapter I appears on the same line that the title. Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 19:55, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

The problem is caused by the quotation marks in ## "s1" ##, it should be just ## s1 ## --Jan Kameníček (talk) 20:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Btw, I have managed to fix the problem with the title. -RiverThames27 (talk) 20:00, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

1) Don't use quotes in the section name, it breaks the magic. 2) It needs a {{nop}} to prevent the table row merging with the section header. 3) It also needed a nop at the top of each page to stop the first row of each page merging with the last row of the prior page. Yes, it's weird, sorry! It now transcludes OK with <pages index="Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf" from=1 to=9 tosection=s1 />.

@Inductiveload, @Jan.Kamenicek: What is the meaning of the section dummy in Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/9. Is it a must to put it in between every two chapters or is it something specific here because it’s in the table of contents? Thanks in advance, -RiverThames27 (talk) 09:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

All that means is the {{dhr}} can be excluded when the page is transcluded (<page .... to=9 tosection="s1"/> and <page .... from=9 fromsection="s2"/>). You could equally not use a dummy section and have it at the end of "s1" and no-one would notice, it'd just make a tiny blank gap at the end of the transcluded content. There is nothing special about the word "dummy", it's just another section. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 09:57, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Thank you very much! -RiverThames27 (talk) 20:29, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

{{Dotted TOC page listing}} formatting query

Is it possible with {{Dotted TOC page listing}} to have the page numbers nestling in under the entry column - as here, rather than out in Col3? Thanks. CharlesSpencer (talk) 17:52, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

@CharlesSpencer: Unforturnately it is not, somebody would have to either rewrite the template to add this possibility or design a different template. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 06:41, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! CharlesSpencer (talk) 11:22, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

TOC

Is there a guide on TOC? ⰕⰑⰞⰀ 03:38, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I am afraid there is not. It is preferred when the work including the TOC pages is scan-backed, proofread in the Page namespace and then transcluded into the main namespace. And because the TOC is usually different in different books, it is not prescribed what it should look like in any guide here. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 06:38, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Cropping

I am recently planning to work on Index:National Anthem Ordinance.pdf, and I encountered some sheet music inside of the related file. Of course it will be easy to use CropTool on Commons. But how should I crop out images from a local English Wikisource file? Are there any tools on English Wikisource to deal with this? Many thanks.廣九直通車 (talk) 11:49, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

We don't have any image manipulation tools, as we tend to not host images. We leve the tools and processes at Commons. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:08, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@廣九直通車: I extracted these with the "pdfimages" command: File:National Anthem Ordinance - Stave - English.png and File:National Anthem Ordinance - Numbered - English.png. At least the first one should be possible to use the Lilypond extension for, but I have not yet learned how to do that. Please check the image metadata is correct. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 13:29, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload:Thanks! It seems that there are no problems. And also, as the melody of March of the Volunteers fulfills the Commons requirement (c:Template:PD-China and Template:Pd/1996), I'll soon send them to Commons.Nope, seems that what I'm originally thinking is wrong.廣九直通車 (talk) 14:10, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Archives of this page and main Scriptorium

[Moved from huge unrelated section] Inductiveload—talk/contribs 20:22, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

And a question that isn’t really related to this discussion, why does the page wikisource:Scriptorium/Help/Archives only have discussions till 2015? Where will this discussion fro example go to after it gets archived? And also they probably wanted to put there a picture, but it says File:....... -RiverThames27 (talk) 20:05, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

About the archives, I found that you can in any case enter wikisource:Scriptorium/Help/Archives/2016 or wikisource:Scriptorium/Help/Archives/2018, just for some reason they aren’t linked in wikisource:Scriptorium/Help/Archives. -RiverThames27 (talk) 20:09, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I suggest to start this point under a new heading at the bottom, as this is already getting very long. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 20:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

That's a very good question. I have no idea. Looks like the index bot has gone AWOL. Archives are at Wikisource:Scriptorium/Help/Archives/2020, etc. I fixed the bad formatting. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 20:22, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Transclusion issue

I'm having an issue – can anybody tell me what I'm missing that's stopping the last source page from transcluding here? I can't see what's going wrong here. It seemed to work before, but doesn't any longer. I also had an issue where the templates for the footnotes and CC-by-4.0 stopped working, but this seems to have fixed itself now. Any ideas?— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 05:28, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Yep, the templating is blowing the expansion limit. (open the source to see this report at the base)

NewPP limit report
Parsed by mw1401
Cached time: 20200620065226
Cache expiry: 2592000
Dynamic content: false
Complications: [vary‐page‐id]
CPU time usage: 4.040 seconds
Real time usage: 4.110 seconds
Preprocessor visited node count: 538523/1000000
Post‐expand include size: 2093245/2097152 bytes
Template argument size: 95400/2097152 bytes
Highest expansion depth: 11/40
Expensive parser function count: 2/500
Unstrip recursion depth: 1/20
Unstrip post‐expand size: 178994/5000000 bytes
Number of Wikibase entities loaded: 0/400
Lua time usage: 0.008/10.000 seconds
Lua memory usage: 726 KB/50 MB

Transclusion expansion time report (%,ms,calls,template)
100.00% 4015.360      1 -total
 89.25% 3583.772   1625 Template:Nornabr
 83.92% 3369.805   3250 Template:Nornabr/switch
 12.51%  502.374  21764 Template:Sup
  6.26%  251.351      1 Page:An_Etymological_Dictionary_of_the_Norn_Language_in_Shetland_Part_I.pdf/130
  5.63%  225.997      1 Page:An_Etymological_Dictionary_of_the_Norn_Language_in_Shetland_Part_I.pdf/133
  5.04%  202.243      1 Page:An_Etymological_Dictionary_of_the_Norn_Language_in_Shetland_Part_I.pdf/139
  5.03%  202.060      1 Page:An_Etymological_Dictionary_of_the_Norn_Language_in_Shetland_Part_I.pdf/134
  4.87%  195.609      1 Page:An_Etymological_Dictionary_of_the_Norn_Language_in_Shetland_Part_I.pdf/129
  4.78%  192.097      1 Page:An_Etymological_Dictionary_of_the_Norn_Language_in_Shetland_Part_I.pdf/143

Do you need the complexity of Template:Nornabr. — billinghurst sDrewth 07:15, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for this. I have for now managed to optimise the switch in Template:Nornabr to roughly halve the post‐expand include size by re-ordering terms by how often they appear in the text. I will try to keep using it until it causes issue again, at which point I will consider other options. Thanks again.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 16:07, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

The option is to spawn out those that are really common to be their own abbreviations, or , or use LUA. #switch upon #switch is just expensive. — billinghurst sDrewth 02:10, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

lost my username

Please refresh my memory as to what username I use with Wikisource. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8803:7b80:a7b:1de9:d348:8d0a:fd5c (talk)

No way for us to know. Think of something that you edited, and look through the page's history for what you seek. — billinghurst sDrewth 02:07, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Disambiguation of authors

I have questions regarding disambiguation of authors.

1. There's no any author page with the name "James Gray" yet, though it's likely to have more than one author page with such name (see James Gray disam page at Wikipedia). So, if I am to create an author page for "James Gray (poet)", should I disam it for now?
2. Help:Disambiguation says an author page is disambiguated by the author's years of life, and Wikipedia says "James Gray (poet)" was born circa 1770 (and died in 1830). If I have to disam his page, should I do it with "(c. 1770–1830)" (I mean with "c." or "circa" mentioned)?.

Thank you so much. --Asuracarya (talk) 04:28, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Although there are quite a lot of people of this name at Wikipedia, it is quite likely that the one you want to add here will stay here alone for a long time. The Wikipedia disambiguation page was founded in 2013, while only now (7 years later) the first James Gray is going to be added to Wikisource. It may take 7 more years until another one will be added here. So it is not necessary to disambiguate in advance. Jan Kameníček (talk) 06:47, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@Asuracarya: The community made the decision years ago to only disambiguate as necessary. So please just put it at the root, and we will disambiguate as/if required.

BUT if you were looking to do an external link, and concerned about the eventual outcome of page moves, then please create a redirect Author:James Gray (1770–1830) that points to the author page, and use that redirected link at the other place. Such redirects will get the maintenance required to point to the right place if we move things. AL THAT SAID the best way to maintain the links is through links at Wikidata as w:template:wikisource-author at English Wikipedia uses wikidata's wikilinks to generate links, and we already link that way from here. — billinghurst sDrewth 05:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

also noting Gray, James which should get linked to your pending author page. — billinghurst sDrewth 06:02, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Seven years? https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044092192434 strikes me as something worth preparing for Wikisource, as a second full translation of the Dhammapada is not a bad thing, nor a difficult one. James Gray (1849-1905) is the translator.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:38, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Footnotes across pages ending with hyphen

When a footnote extends over two pages and ends with a hyphen on the first page, it seems like the space inserted between the pages is not removed as usual. For example:

Page:Niti literature (Gray J, 1886).pdf/49	Page:Niti literature (Gray J, 1886).pdf/50	Transclusion result
<ref name = "abc">Ćâṇakya says: "To pay off debts, to quench a fire, and remove desire is good, for should they in-</ref>	<ref follow = "abc">crease, they cannot be stopped."</ref>	Ćâṇakya says: "To pay off debts, to quench a fire, and remove desire is good, for should they in- crease, they cannot be stopped."

Is there a way to fix this? Thank you very much. --Asuracarya (talk) 13:58, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

@Asuracarya: Try {{hws}}/{{hwe}}:

Page:Niti literature (Gray J, 1886).pdf/49	Page:Niti literature (Gray J, 1886).pdf/50	Transclusion result
<ref name = "abc">Ćâṇakya says: "To pay off debts, to quench a fire, and remove desire is good, for should they {{hws|in|increase}}</ref>	<ref follow = "abc">{{hwe|crease|increase}}, they cannot be stopped."</ref>	Ćâṇakya says: "To pay off debts, to quench a fire, and remove desire is good, for should they increase, they cannot be stopped."

It's a little tedious, but it gets the job done. --Xover (talk) 14:20, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Style check requested...

User:ShakespeareFan00/CCE1 , Is this rendering properly? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:19, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Looks OK to me, though it could do with a padding-left:1em; or similar in column 2. The width:100% is also a bit unnecessary, IMO.

Are you sure plugging together several generic CSS classes from multiple stylesheets and then applying {{ts}}'s ad-hoc to cover whatever those classes don't is easier than just writing a single CSS sheet for the exact kind of table? The w:DRY principle is a good idea, but only if it actually makes things more robust. In this case, you could encode pretty much all the formatting, including the right-alignment of the second line in the right cell (which you have ignored), padding of col 2 and header and even the caption with CSS like this:

Example: CCE table CSS

._cce_table {
	width: 100%; /* but maybe margin: auto; */
	border-collapse: collapse;
}

._cce_table td {
	vertical-align: top;
}

._cce_table td:not(:first-of-type),
._cce_table th:not(:first-of-type) {
	border-left:1px solid black;
	padding-left: 1em;
}

._cce_table td:not(:last-of-type),
._cce_table th:not(:last-of-type) {
	padding-right: 1em;
}

._cce_table td:nth-child(2) p:last-of-type {
	text-align:right;
	margin: 0;
}

._cce_table th {
	font-weight: normal;
	font-variant: small-caps;
	border-top:1px solid black;
	border-bottom:1px solid black;
	padding: 0.5em 0;
}

._cce_table caption {
	font-size: 120%;
	text-align: center;
}

This means your table can be marked up with only a single class and no extra formatting:

<templatestyles src="THISCSS.css"/>
{| class="_cce_table"
|+ BOOKS.
|-
!Titles.
!Proprietors.
|-
|Boyd's Directory of Shamokin. 1891–1893||W. H. Boyd,

Reading, Pa.
|}

and you also don't need to worry that someone might break the central CSS in some subtle way.

If you have "special" rows, you can add a class just for them to add/remove styles as needed, which is much easier to reason about when all the CSS is in one place and not sourced from snippets of several stylesheets. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 12:23, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

If you want to implement a class for this work, feel free, This is a wiki after all :). And yes ideally I'd like to have the tables as simple as possible. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:47, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Template for linking to subpages in ToC

I know about {{TOC link}}, and it's great for linking page numbers in Tables of Contents -- but I'd also like to link the section name to the subpage (unconditionally). I can do it manually, but that means repeating the whole parent page name in each row, and repeating the subpage name twice (once as the name, once as the label). It feel like there should be a template to reduce that to something like {{TOC page link|This Is An Essay}} (which would become [[Book of Essays/This Is An Essay|This Is An Essay]]). Does this exist, or should I create it? JesseW (talk) 02:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@JesseW: I've been thinking about that, but so far haven't come up with any good solution. The problem is that templates do not know anything about their calling context: there is no way to set the base page name once and have subsequent invocations reuse it, and there is no way to automatically guess it. Any solution to this would have to be based on JavaScript ala. the Easy LST gadget in your preferences (it transforms wikitext on load and on save, and JS can do much more than templates can). --Xover (talk) 09:35, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

We've been through the thinking before. We can set relative links in the ToC, though that leads to red links. The community discussed and pretty much resolved that it just easiest to set hard links. Hard links are not perfect either on the occasions that we need to works, though less problematic.

TOC links to the page namespace don't generate much. Sure we set them up to be done, though it is really of little value as there is zero progress in repopulating the works at Commons. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:50, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

The lack of an elegant technological solution offends my technology-optimist sensibilities. :-) --Xover (talk) 13:48, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, so we have to specify the parent page ("Book of Essays" in my example). But we should still be able to avoid repeating the subpage. I've made such a template, {{subpage|A|B}} which becomes B; if such a template already exists (or exists in a cleaner way), please redirect (or just delete my version). JesseW (talk) 16:12, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Hearing no objections or suggestions of an existing alternative, I'm going to start using it (and add documentation, etc.) JesseW (talk) 18:57, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Question .. From a total Newbie .. who does not want to offend anyone!

I have been studying the Treaty of Fort Laramie of 1868 - and the versions that exist online such as the National Archive ( https://catalog.archives.gov/id/299803 ), docsthought.org, https://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=true&doc=42, etc., all read quite differently from this source. Is there a ‘version’ dispute, or “two schools” situation? I couldn’t find where to ask this question, so here goes .. JS. —unsigned comment by Sgtpepper6344 (talk) 08:03, 5 July 2020‎.

The WS text hasn't been changed in content since 2006 (in the very early days of Wikisource), when it was imported from Wikipedia prior to deletion there: w:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Treaty of 1868. There is no stated source, and the text looks very rather like a dump from some third-party source.

A cursory comparison of the WS text and the scanned original's first page doesn't look radically different to me, except for some missing line breaks.

I have constructed and imported a scan (constructed from the archives.gov images) at Index:Treaty of Fort Laramie - 1868.pdf, which can be used to provide a scan-backed work with greater integrity than an anonymous 14-year-old version. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 12:00, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Can you please transfer the files that I have uploaded locally to wikisource to commons?

see this I am currently blocked on commons, so I need your guys help, thanks. Eltomas2003 (talk) 03:08, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

I transferred File:Japan book.djvu. Hope this helps. -Pete (talk) 08:07, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

@Eltomas2003: File:Japan book.djvu is probably not suitable for Wikisource, by the way. I created Index:Japan - Murray - 1906.djvu from an original scan on the Internet Archive. If you wish to proofread this book, that's likely a good place to start. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 08:11, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Can you please transfer my proposed wikirosseta logo to commons please?

the logo is here Eltomas2003 (talk) 15:07, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@Eltomas2003: You have been asked to stop uploading files here, and that file is out of scope for Wikisource, so for anyone to transfer it to Commons would be just plain proxying for a blocked user. --Xover (talk) 16:53, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Options to change apperance in Page namespace...

Help:WikiEditor/Troubleshooting - I do NOT see these options in preferences. Either there is something missing or the documentation needs updating.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:58, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

At least the top two options are now handled entirely though mw.config API and buttons in the edit toolbar, so they aren't shown in preferences if the edit toolbar is active. And the toolbar options are changed too.

I don't really think that page has any useful content at all - what is it even for now? Has the WikiEditor gotten good enough in the past 6 years to not need such a page? Inductiveload—talk/contribs 13:54, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Lining up left edge of separate block centers?

Apologies for all the questions recently, however this dictionary I've picked as a first project seems a little like a baptism by fire!

I'm trying to get this page formatted properly. As you can see, there's a series of verses that are centred, but all the left edges of the verses line up. I would put them in a single Template:block center, but then I can't seem to centre the titles for each verse separately. If you use multiple Template:block centers, then all the left edges go higgelty-piggelty with the differing widths of each verse.

Also, there's the text that is offset to the left of the verses. When I try to format this it juts out the centred block to the right.

If anyone could take a look at the page and see what I'm doing wrong I can continue the correct solution through the rest of the chapter.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 13:53, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Hm, that is really tricky. I tried something, check if it is better. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:12, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

That's so much better, thank you very much! Clever use of nested block centers. I will try remember this should the situation arise again.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 01:07, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Index:Somerville Mechanism of the heavens.djvu

I started proofreading this again and in the grips of math, have just realised that pages 36-39 are repeated from pages 40-43 and the file needs fixing… Could someone do this for me please? Cheers, Zoeannl (talk) 11:44, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Just mark/save them as 'without text' for now.— Ineuw (talk) 16:44, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Formatting and style

Hi all, I have two questions:

1. How to cite an author? Can I simply add a wikilink to specific page or is there a template? (Page:Cesare Battisti and the Trentino.djvu/5)
2. Can I rotate a picture or it should be "turned" like the original? (Page:Cesare Battisti and the Trentino.djvu/10)

Thanks. --Afnecors (talk) 18:11, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Good questions, hope this helps:

1. {{al}} is a way to slightly simplify links to author pages.
2. Yes, definitely rotate the photo so it's easy to read. Per Wikisource:Style guide#Formatting we are not aiming for a "photographic" facsimile, i.e. there is no need to reproduce a decision that was clearly made purely to fit the (print) medium. -Pete (talk) 18:24, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Pete, if I have any other doubts I'll ask you. --Afnecors (talk) 18:41, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Proofreading

Hello,

I have just started proofreading Index:Elizabeth Elstob - An English-Saxon homily on the birth-day of St. Gregory.djvu.

I would be grateful if anyone more experienced could have a look at what I have done so far and tell me whether I have made errors. I especially wonder whether I should have kept the long S's (ſ) or if I have been right in replacing them with regular S's. Ælfgar (talk) 13:22, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

@Ælfgar: Looks fine. You had a couple of odd blind spots in the proofreading ("Learnings" vs. "Learning,") that you may want to pay extra attention to; and you need to mark missing images with {{missing image}} (or {{raw image}} when appropriate) and tag the pages as Problematic. Other then that I've made a few smaller tweaks.

Long s is optional, so long as you are consistent within a work. I personally recommend changing it to a modern s. --Xover (talk) 15:14, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Regarding long s, I like using {{ls}} and the script that lets me toggle them on and off -- it's nice to have them on for matching the scan, and off for ease of reading. But as Xover said, it's optional. JesseW (talk) 15:44, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice! I may return if other issues arise. And sorry for the typos, eighteenth-century texts are not the easiest to proofread. Ælfgar (talk) 08:02, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

This is really not an easy work, OCR on 1700s works is poor, and the Saxon is always going to OCR badly without very dedicated tooling, you're doing a good job so far!

I am not sure how best to advise for the Saxon-English side-by-side text (starts here). The original text is presented with the lines staying "in sync" across all pages (the last line, 43 pages later is still matched up), presumably by careful typesetting. A simple use of {{multicol}} won't keep that relationship, because the English and Saxon won't come out as the same length, so they will "diverge" after a page or two and the useful correspondence will be lost. There are also no obvious paragraph breaks to "reset" the alignment. Maybe loss of alignment is OK, but seems a bit of a shame if it can be avoided. Perhaps poem formatting, but then the text will be extremely narrow. Anyone got any bright ideas? Inductiveload—talk/contribs 10:42, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Ouch! I have no ideas on how to do this cleanly. I would probably just give up if faced with that situation.

I think this is a case where you either get the synchronised lines or the lack of paragraphs, but not both; and even if you insert fake paragraphs you won't get perfect alignment, only prevent them from getting too far out of sync.

The only option I see for getting close is a manual table (each line is one row, and one column each for the two), but that's a 43-page page-spanning table combined with other complex formatting (are those multipage footnotes, or a paralell stream of text? Both? With per-page pseudo-footnotes, and… *shudder*). We'd probably need to make work-specific row templates to make this practical, and I am absolutely not sure the result would work well in all settings (epub etc.). --Xover (talk) 11:16, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

This also might work:

<span style="display:block; width: 100%;">
   <span style="display:inline-block; width: 50%;">Left</span>
   <span style="display:inline-block; width: 50%;">Right</span>
</span>
<span>
 ... next line

Advantage: simple, no tables, no wrapper divs needed, guarantees the lines are in sync. Disadvantage: interleaves the lines and you can't copy-paste only one column (you can in a table with Shift-drag or a {{multicol}}-type affair), doesn't work in my ereader app (works in Calibre).

Distasteful as it is, a table might be the expedient bet. If it's a template, changing tack later would be fairly easy if a better way presents itself. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 13:51, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Oh dear, I did expect this part would be problematic, but I didn't think it would be such a headache! Thanks for the time and effort you're putting into this, let me know when you find a solution you deem satisfactory. Ælfgar (talk) 19:26, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

What about transcluding each page separately:

<pages index="Elizabeth Elstob - An English-Saxon homily on the birth-day of St. Gregory.djvu" include=81 />
{{page break|label=}}
<pages index="Elizabeth Elstob - An English-Saxon homily on the birth-day of St. Gregory.djvu" include=82 />
{{page break|label=}}
<pages index="Elizabeth Elstob - An English-Saxon homily on the birth-day of St. Gregory.djvu" include=83 />
…

This would be very easy and the synchronisation would not be too bad (especially as not all the lines in the original are perfectly synchronized either). --Jan Kameníček (talk) 20:34, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: this seems like the best approach so far, but using {{multicol-section}} rather than page breaks to provide the page-by-page sectional containment via a template {{Elstob side-by-side/s}} and {{Elstob side-by-side}}. It seems to work OK in my Sandbox (but epubs don't works very well at all in my app (Calibre is "OK") Inductiveload—talk/contribs 22:13, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Some challenging transcription

Anyone looking for a real challenge should take a look at Page:Konx Om Pax.pdf/16, Page:Konx Om Pax.pdf/17, and Page:Konx Om Pax.pdf/18. Good luck! Kaldari (talk) 16:16, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

“Hey Kaldari. Hold my beer!” :) --Xover (talk) 17:21, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: I don't know what kind of magic forces you're wielding, but they are indeed impressive! Kaldari (talk) 17:35, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@Kaldari: It’s mostly just tesseract page.jpg - -l eng+ara+heb. Sssh! Don’t tell anyone or I’ll lose my reputation for superhuman powers! :) --Xover (talk) 17:51, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I made a start at Page:Konx Om Pax.pdf/17 - not sure how to display the Chinese upside down, and don't have the paragraph content for the third, fourth, and seventh sections though DannyS712 (talk) 09:10, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Move from old Wikisource

In my zeal to begin contributing to Wikisource I managed to put an English-language work on the main Wikisource instead of the English subdomain. How do I get Knaves of Diamonds moved? -McGhiever (talk) 00:56, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

@McGhiever: Hmm. Given the sheer number of pages involved, I think this is probably a bot task; and I'm not sure we have anybody active who has done that kind of thing before. @Billinghurst, @Inductiveload: either of you have ideas for this? Could we use the old XML-based transwiki method, or does pywikibot have convenient support for Special:Import'ing in bulk? --Xover (talk) 07:22, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Xover, I think that we can just do an XML export <-> import, then tidy it all up. We haven't had to do it previously so it will be a little experimental. I will get the rights temporarily assigned. meta request — billinghurst sDrewth 07:56, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! Incidentally, and just dumping it here for my own future reference, the MW API does support programatically using Special:Import, so it is technically possible to do this kind of thing from an interactive Gadget / User script. Such a script would have to be custom-made for Wikisource (vs. WP or similar) due to our use of namespaces and ProofreadPage. But given how rarely it's needed, writing such a script is probably overkill. Or do we have more cross-Wikisource moves than I'm aware of?

Pywikibot does not appear to have specific support for cross wiki imports, except that it lets you access the MW API so you could create that from scratch if you were inclined. --Xover (talk) 08:42, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Happy to write a script if one is needed - just let me know DannyS712 (talk) 08:47, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Done — billinghurst sDrewth 14:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

@DannyS712: Thanks for the offer! But as mentioned, I think this issue pops up rarely enough that a script for it is probably overkill. If you just want to play around and explore the API I'd be happy to sketch out the requirements, but I think the main value from such an effort would be the generic part for do something to all pages associated with an Index: rather than the importing bit as such. We have a number of use cases where we want to do thing to a work as a whole, or to several subsets of the Page: pages associated with one. Things like shifting all pages n places because the source file has been updated (deleted or added pages); making arbitrary swaps and moves of pages (because they were out of order in the scan); or renaming an entire work (because the original file was uploaded under a misleading name). We get by in various ways (including using pywikibot-based bot scripts for larger one-off jobs when needed), but when they pop up it'd be nice to have a polished utility to do it. --Xover (talk) 16:02, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

OCR offset by a page

In Index:The Practice and Theory of Inoculation.djvu the OCR is offset by a page (i.e. it shows the text for the next page). Is there a simple way to fix this? JesseW (talk) 05:43, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

@JesseW: This is caused by T219376. There's no easy fix, but I have regenerated the DjVu from source scans so that it no longer triggers that bug.

PS. I see you're using {{asc}}, which is a <span>-based template, as if it were a block template (<div>-based). This is going to cause you problems in some situations, and inevitably leads to more complicated code (like having to use <br /> for linebreaks instead of just inserting one or two blank lines). I recommend paying attention to whether formatting templates have an inline content model (<span>-based) or a block content model (<div>-based) and using them accordingly. It's usually possible to make each work the opposite way, but you'll be fighting MediaWiki every step of the way. --Xover (talk) 07:14, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Ah, thank you for both pieces of advice (and help)! JesseW (talk) 15:32, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: -- I saw you changed "Half title" to "Half-title", and mentioned they refer to different things. We should probably document the difference on Help:Front matter -- do you happen to remember a source (or just more details) on the difference? JesseW (talk) 15:45, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

@JesseW: "Half-title" is a term of art; "half title" is just plain English and would read as "half of a title" or "half like a title [and half like something else]". It's not a big deal, just a minor spelling correction in passing since I was messing with it anyway. I don't really think anyone would object to, or be confused by, the use of "Half title". --Xover (talk) 15:59, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Not certain why we are even going there. Preferable to just sequentially number pages. These labels on pages is only of any value in a build phase, when they are transcluded they are just plain pointless. They are ugly looking when transcluded, and they would never be part of a link to the work.

Personally I don't understand this recent trend to transclude such pages anyway. What value is it bringing? We are not a paper book, you don't have to turn pages to get to the title page. We are a electronic representation and can start at title page when truly represents the work. If you have to transclude it, put it into a "front matter" page, and have it as a prev link from the root. —unsigned comment by Billinghurst (talk) 01:22, 27 July 2020 (UTC).

Picture on two pages

Working on Cesare Battisti and the Trentino I found (Page 26, Page 27) a illustration (map) that occupies two pages. How can I include it properly? I can provide singles or merged images. --Afnecors (talk) 10:04, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Afnecors: Put the combined image on the first page and mark the second as "No text". --Xover (talk) 10:32, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks @Xover:. Cesare_Battisti_and_the_Trentino#pagenumber_24 is it ok? Does the pagelist need updating? --Afnecors (talk) 16:42, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Afnecors: That looks fine to me. No need to update the pagelist. --Xover (talk) 16:47, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Excellent! --Afnecors (talk) 11:57, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

The layout is fine, but that image troubles me - a signifiant amount of detail is lost in the gutter. So I have asked our colleagues at Wikipedia's Graphics Lab if they can recreate the missing material. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 08:15, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Afnecors, @Pigsonthewing: I have found a copy where the halves of the map overlap better and tried to join them. Because both parts of the map seem to be distorted in different ways, I had to distort them both too so that the lines could be joined. I have uploaded the result to G Drive, so you can have a look. It is very far from perfect, but at least the gutter has disappeared. If you think it is OK, I can upload it to Commons. There are also some strange spots between Sicily and the Apennine Peninsula. I have checked some modern maps and there should not be any islands in those places, so they are probably some scanning residues (see the red oval). I am not sure whether I should preserve them there or remove them. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 09:45, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: Very good! You can override File:Cesare Battisti and the Trentino - figure page 24 and page 25.jpg. --Afnecors (talk) 11:27, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Done --Jan Kameníček (talk) 14:36, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Image display issue when logged in

This has happened in the past but the circumstances have changed and old solutions no longer apply. The {{FI}} template, in both the page and main namespaces increase the display beyond the confines of the monitor.

1. It only happens in Firefox and when I am logged in. While logged out the problem disappears.
2. It does not happen in Vivaldi, whether I am logged in or not.
3. Already logged out twice of all Wikimedia websites and deleted all Wikimedia related cookies.
4. Logged back in using Firefox and the problem is there.
5. Always used the Vector theme and also selected the legacy Vector. It made no difference if it was not selected.
6. Deleted the contents of both vector.js and vecor.css but it made no difference.
7. Also checked my Preferences. There was no change in my settings, at least not what I could notice.
8. Tested the same with User:IneuwPublic account and it's the same.

An example in which the template is disabled, and the file is wikified. — IneuwPublic talk 02:57, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

If it is only images that utilise template:FreedImg then it surely it relates to a style that Firefox employs, and if only when you are logged in then in conjunction with something in your common.css or vector.css. The template's styles sit in Template:FreedImg/styles.css. There is some control over images in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering. — billinghurst sDrewth 06:18, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Much thanks for pointing me to the possibilities. I only use the template for images. I don't use common.css, and I tested this with the vector.css and vector.js removed, but will test it again. However, Inductiveload made changes to both .js and .css templates of FreedImg.— Ineuw (talk) 07:21, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I can't reproduce this issue in Safari 13 (logged in nor out); Firefox 77 and 79 (logged in nor out); Chrome 84 (logged out). --Xover (talk) 07:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

It's solved. My custom script "typoscan.js" became obsolete and interfered with FreeImg. How it ties in to Firefox I don't know yet but the clue will surface eventually. Firefox was also tested for this problem without their userChrome.css.— Ineuw (talk) 08:18, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

What do members of the community call themselves?

Hello. What is the moniker used to refer to a member of Wikisource? Doctorxgc (talk) 18:17, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

In general, "Honourable member(s) will do, but I prefer to be called Sir Ineuw. — Ineuw (talk) 18:25, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Doctorxgc: one (punnish) moniker is "Wikisourcerer", though apparently the less interesting "Wikisourcer" is used too. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 21:50, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Wiki-links to (author) disambiguation pages and others

I have recently been clearing out inappropriate Wiki-links to the disambiguation pages I have mentioned; would it be possible to create (by program) a complete listing of the pages which link to these pages? TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 23:51, 6 August 2020 (UTC).

Special:DisambiguationPageLinks though it is imperfect as we do link to them through {{similar}} —unsigned comment by Billinghurst (talk) .

• A larger problem is that the page also includes links to {{versions}} pages, which is highly problematic. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 11:18, 9 August 2020 (UTC).

Wrong name on an article

"Caracas" on your "1911 Encyclopedia Britannica/Caracas", does not have an accent (grave words, i.e., those that have emphasis on the next-to-last syllable, ending in a vowel, n or s, are mot accented.

• Wikisource recreates texts as they were originally published. In the case of 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica/Carácas, the second “a” has an acute accent in the original (for which see this page, from which the text was taken). TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 23:44, 8 August 2020 (UTC).

TextQuality Template didn't work .. in a Translation Namespace page

I placed a {{TextQuality|50%}} in the page Translation:Shulchan_Aruch/Yoreh_Deah/1 but it showed nothing. Is this unavailable in Translation namespace? Or Wikisource-wide? I only saw some old posts from 2010 discussing deprecating it.Nissimnanach (talk) 15:11, 14 August 2020 (UTC)Nissimnanach

• The template doesn’t show anything. It adds pages to categories; it should only be used on base pages, I believe. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 21:16, 14 August 2020 (UTC).

  It should be showing a small icon on the "page" tab. However, I see from the template's talk page that it hasn't been working for a few years now in the mainspace either, presumably when the tab got renamed from "article" to "page". It needs the attention of one of the more technically-minded. @Xover:? Beeswaxcandle (talk) 21:35, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

  Sigh. Beeswaxcandle is correct: it should display an icon, in the top right of the page on the same line as the page title. However, this display was disabled by GOIII in 2015 with no comment (and their editing history around that time reveals no relevant discussions or explanations either). I have now restored the functionality. Please let me know if this causes problems anywhere: whatever they are, this particular approach is unlikely to be the best way to fix them. --Xover (talk) 11:43, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Addding externally produced transcriptions

I already have transcriptions for my texts produced by using OCR technology outside of Wikisource. Is it possible to upload these existing transcriptions to Wikisource instead of using the OCR within Wikisource? If so, how should I import the transcriptions and what format should they be? The texts are written in Bengali. —unsigned comment by 2a00:23c4:688f:8201:a97f:5bdd:3de3:adf9 (talk) 09:58, 19 August 2020‎.

Bengali transcriptions don't belong at English Wikisource, you will need to pop over to Bengali Wikisource and ask there. — billinghurst sDrewth 01:07, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Help is sought to salvage a much depended on script

This typoscan.js script highlights typos, and alerts me to possible OCR errors. It still works well, but since a recent wmf software update, the {{FI}} template clashes with it, whereby an image is enlarged x2-x3 and most of it is forced off screen. Could someone look at the script, if it can be modified to work with the template, since I heavily rely on both? — Ineuw (talk) 17:43, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

You probably should neutralise the FI aspects if it is breaking your other script. — billinghurst sDrewth 01:26, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ineuw: Could you provide a link to a page on which it breaks, and a description of what exactly happens that should not happen? --Xover (talk) 05:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ineuw: It's not specifically FI that's the problem. I think what is going on is that this pattern:

/(^|\W)[a-zA-Z]+ \.[a-zA-Z]+(\W|$)/g,       // period surrounded by letters

is catching CSS rules in the TemplateStyles style tags. Since these are within the mw-parser-output node, they're seen as fair game by the script. This results in CSS "rules" that look like this:

div<span style="background:LightSalmon;">.freedImg{</span>...
/* should be: */
div.freedImg{...

This totally breaks the CSS and the result is that the image loses a big chunk of its styling, including the size. A quick hack appears to be to add the following at the start of the HighlightTyposUnder function (actually, the second line of the function, after the node check), which prevents the script messing with any CSS inline style elements:

    if( node.tagName === "STYLE") {
      return;
    }

Perhaps there's a better way that's more robust, but this Works For Me (TM). Inductiveload—talk/contribs 09:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Not sure why you call that a hack: it looks like the correct way to solve this particular problem to me. The script should not be looking for text to flag inside style elements. There may be a more general problem with a more general solution, but absent symptoms of that I think just solving the specific problem is just fine. --Xover (talk) 09:48, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Much thanks to all. @Inductiveload:'s solution works. @Xover: Index:The Coronado expedition, 1540-1542.djvu images are on their own page, without text and were all affected in the page and main namespaces.— Ineuw (talk) 10:37, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Glad it's working, I've updated WS:TOOLS. This really should be a gadget with user-script configuration, rather than expecting users to copy-paste the entire thing, but I'm still unsure of the ability of scripts in user common.js to correctly interact with configuration of gadgets. It seems it will probably be fine to assume common.js executes before the DOM settles and typoscan's jQuery( document ).ready() fires, but I'm not sure if that's actually enforced or just lucky. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 10:53, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I find that long used and problem free scripts fail occasionally with wmf updates. Also, I assume that you are referring to the wmf software DOM? In any case how long does it take the DOM "to settle"? — Ineuw (talk) 11:26, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

This wasn't caused by a WMF update, it's caused by the transition from global CSS to in-line TemplateStyles CSS for the FI template (though other TS CSS is vulnerable to this too, FI is probably the most common). When this script was made, all CSS was outside the mw-parser-output node, which is no longer true. FI was just the first "victim" that was noticed.

The HTML page's Document Object Model (DOM) is said to "settle" once everything on a page is loaded and JS that acts on the page content can safely run. The jQuery "ready" function is used to delay JS from running until this time. This is important so that, say, typoscan doesn't run before the page content is loaded. However, as far as I know the user's common.js and gadgets execute immediately on load, with no synchronisation between them or the DOM settling. Gadgets often wait for DOM settling, but even then, there's no promise that common.js will be complete, though it seems a fairly safe bet in practical experience. This could be an issue if you want to configure a gadget using common.js. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 12:16, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time out to explain. It's much appreciated. — Ineuw (talk) 12:51, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

HTML? CSS? Changes disabled my vector.css settings.

Long used CSS settings were disabled and the selectors no longer exist in the Inspector. My latest problem is the loss of the page width (500px) of the text column alongside the .djvu image, in the page namespace. These CSS anomalies also apply to the font-family and size settings. To test the syntax and the results, they were pasted into W3 where it was working correctly. But, using them in vector.css is hopeless. At best, the results are intermittent, at worst, they don't function at all. Prior to posting this, I spent many hours trying to repair this on my own to avoid asking for help, but at this point, whatever I do hits a dead end.

The software environment is:

• Windows 10 v1909, with Google Noto as the System font.
• Firefox 80 browser, with Noto is the skin font, but websites use their own font selections and sizes.
• In Wikisource, the font in the [[User:Ineuw/vector.css|vector.css] are also Noto.
• The choice of the font was made after months of research to resolve numerous issues brought about by being caught in a perfect storm between wmf, the browser and OS changes.— Ineuw (talk) 01:58, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ineuw: It looks like you're applying your CSS through User:Ineuw/vector.css, where you're targeting the relevant style rules with the selector .pagetext. I just tested this by applying the width rule interactively in my browser's console with JavaScript ($('.pagetext').css('width', '100px')) and it worked fine. In other words, the selector does exist and there is no obvious reason why it would not work for you. --Xover (talk) 07:41, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

@Xover:, How right you are. There was a typo of two opening braces. Thanks for looking at it, and permit me to take additional sips in the future at your fountain of knowledge.— Ineuw (talk) 09:57, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

If I had a dollar for every time I've stared myself blind at the problem, making increasingly drastic debugging efforts, only to discover it was a dumb typo or other syntax error, often because someone with fresh eyes cast a quick glance at what was obvious in retrospect… It's not exactly an uncommon occurrence, is what I'm saying! :) --Xover (talk) 10:03, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Hyphenated word pair split over page break

Page:Walks in the Black Country and its green border-land.pdf/267 and 268 end, and start, respectively, with "grafted into the Pembrugge-" and "Vernon stock". The intended effect is that this should render as:

"grafted into the Pembrugge-Vernon stock"

but I cannt figure out how to mark this up. I have tried both plain text an {{hws}}/{{hwe}}, to no avail; each renders as "grafted into the PembruggeVernon stock"

What should I do? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:46, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing: {{page end hyphen}} is the way here. See also H:HYPHEN. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 15:51, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Converting Template:Nornabr and Template:Nornabr/switch to use modules

I've just finished transcribing the letter B for the Norn Dictionary, and with the way I am transcribing it using Template:Nornabr to provide tooltips that expand abbreviations (which amounts to a switch case statement that finds the expansion based on the abbreviation you pass in), I am now again running up against the limits of the transclusion expansion time when trying to transclude all the pages needed for the letter B.

I can see folk thinking that I should just be able use AutoWikiBrowser and avoid using a lookup table in the first place – however, I would like to avoid doing that prematurely, mostly because a sizeable proportion of the abbreviations have more than one possible expansion. E.g., "n." can be either "neuter" or "intransitive", in which case it would desirable to bake in only the correct expansion. This is listed in the abbreviations list, but many abbreviations have slight liberties taken with them, and any eventual expanded version of the text will need to have each abbreviation's expansion carefully checked. However, that seems like a job best left for the very end when everything else is transcribed.

So the best option (at least to me) seems to be to stick with Nornabr for now – if it can be made a bit more efficient as a module. Template programming has been a challenge to me enough as it is, and I honestly have no idea where to start with modules. If somebody would be willing to help me set up the basic module gubbins I can try to reformat the lookup table data into a form that matches the conventions that Lua needs. Thanks for any help anyone can provide.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 11:42, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Request for page move

I was wrong about the date when an event took place, and would like the page moved since the date is in the URL. It is my understanding that the procedure for moving is to ask for this to be done here. (The Pages_to_move bot isn't running?)

• Wrong date: Alexandria_Ocasio-Cortez_-_online_town_hall_on_7_July_2020
• Right date: Alexandria_Ocasio-Cortez_-_online_town_hall_on_8_July_2020

thanks Dennis the Peasant (talk) 04:27, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

@Dennis the Peasant: Moving pages does not normally require special permissions. You can do it yourself using the "Move" command in the "More" menu (up next to the search field). --Xover (talk) 06:42, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: Thanks! --Dennis the Peasant (talk) 12:47, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Timeline

Hi

I was wondering if we could have a project which allows us to align events in a chronological way.

For example - There are books about historical events which narrate sometimes very different course of events. In order to bring this to notice of readers, as well try to find the common ground and assign some more historicity to such events. This shall help resolve quite a few of the claims made across various literature. Shall also help to provide users different view points and also rationalise this.

We could mark these to days, seasons, years (in case the events is highly uncertain), to hours, minutes and seconds ( in case of recent history). Moreover this could also allow us to link this to astronomical events - based on which most history is marked. —unsigned comment by Shoonya32 (talk) ‎ 10:19, 11 September 2020.

@Shoonya32: I'm not quite sure what you mean - do you have an example in mind? We do have Portals which can be used to collect works relating to a specific event. If you mean to provide deeper analysis of events as described in multiple books, that seems to me to be somewhat outside the scope of Wikisource, though Wikisource can certainly be used as source for such analysis. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 10:33, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

re @Inductiveload: what I meant was that we build a timeline to events from sources - which may also allow for attempt to resolve ambiguities. So lets say that one document says that certain person was in Moldovia in summer of 1707 A.D. , however from another source we learn that said person was at an event elsewhere. On another hand, assume that a user want to generate a "newspaper" how it would appear in 1505 A.D. in Britain. If events are mapped chronologically, then such a generation could be a great way of learning about history. What people really knew and how the events unfolded.

@Shoonya32: I feel that's outside the scope of Wikisource. If you really wanted to start such a project, I think perhaps Wikibooks might be a possible place to do so, with Wikisource acting as a repository for proofread primary sources. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 09:34, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

re @Inductiveload: Am new to wikipedia - How do i propose a project like this and to whom? basically creation of a simultaneous historical timeline from various historical sources.

@Shoonya32: perhaps you can either ask whether there is interest (or similar books) at Wikibooks (Wikibooks:Reading room/Proposals), or, if you want to propose an entire project (i.e. as a sibling to Wikisource and Wikipedia), you can do so at Meta: meta:Proposals_for_new_projects. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 07:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

re @Inductiveload: Did so at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiArchive - Shoonya32

Template:Poemquote not working

w:Template:Poem_quote not working on s: like it works on w:

The text isn't even rendered at all. Demo below has eight words on eight lines but you don't see them.

{{Poemquote|1=this
should
all
be 
one 
word
per 
line
}}

Nissimnanach (talk) 14:58, 14 September 2020 (UTC)Nissimnanach

@Nissimnanach: there is no such template at enWS. Perhaps what you want can be achieved with the following:

<poem>
Line 1
Line 2
Line 3
...
</poem>

Likely you would also wrap the whole thing in {{block center}}. If you can indicate where you want this to go, I can be more specific. See also H:POEM. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 15:33, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Perfect, thanks that was easy. Translation:Shulchan_Aruch/Yoreh_Deah/29 Nissimnanach (talk) 18:03, 14 September 2020 (UTC)Nissimmanach

Brace2 template not behaving

I've got the braces showing on Page:Shakespeare and Music.djvu/162, but they're missing for me on transclusion to Shakespeare and Music/Dances and Dancing#148 and are replaced with '"`UNIQ--postMath-00000001-QINU`"'

Any thoughts on how to resolve? Beeswaxcandle (talk) 03:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@Beeswaxcandle: This is really weird. Templates should not be affected by their surrounding context at all, but in this case there is something about the second score on the following page that is triggering this behaviour. If you transclude only page 162 the problem goes away. If you transclude page 162 and 163 the problem returns. If you remove the second of the two scores on page 163 the problem goes away. Removing the first of the two scores on page 163 has no effect.

I could perhaps see some kind of broken markup preceding the braces messing them up (but the visible strip markers is a very strange symptom even then), but for something later in the content doing so makes no sense. That something being score markup is even stranger since its output should, for technical reasons, be entirely self-contained regardless of any errors in it. Especially now that it is only displaying the "temporarily disabled" message. The only thing I can think to try is to rewrite the score using a different approach to the same thing (i.e. use different syntax to produce the same rendered result), to the degree that's possible.

@Inductiveload: Otherwise I'm out of ideas here. You got any? --Xover (talk) 06:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

It would appear you have rediscovered task T236629. It might be pointless trying to solve this before <score> comes back to life?

To prove the issue is not with {{brace2}} temporarily exclude the pages following this one (i.e. add exclude="163-165" to the <pages> tag in main space) — everything wondrously springs back to life! 175.35.80.20 07:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

So, because there's a module error both before and after the braces, they won't display. And, while the scores are correct off-site, until scores are resuscitated we can't see what's going on. Thanks, Beeswaxcandle (talk) 18:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Requesting an upload

Basically, The Court Rolls of the Manor of Ingoldmells is a book which appears to be public domain -- it was published in the UK in 1902 and its author died in 1910; it never appears to have been published in the US or anywhere else. As such, I would like to upload it here, but it doesn't seem to be available to UK IPs (I don't know why -- it is clearly PD in the UK). I need it for work I'm doing over at Wikipedia and it would be great to make the text available freely here. Would someone please upload it here for me? The Hathitrust catalogue record is here. The Google Books record is here. Earlier today, I posted this request over at the requested texts page but that page looks pretty moribund (there are unanswered requests going back to 2017 and no evidence of recent requests being answered), so I'm wondering whether it's best to post here in the hope that someone see this and might help me. I'd be grateful for any assistance. Thanks! —Noswall59 (talk) 11:46, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

@Noswall59: sadly neither Google nor Hathi have a public scan that you can download. It looks like Google doesn't even have a scan at all (otherwise they usually present a snippet view and you can ask them to make it available if it's actually PD). Hathi aren't known for granting such requests, as far as I know. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 15:29, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: thanks for checking. I see there is another one on Google Books which I cannot access but appears more promising: do you mind seeing if this works? Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 15:37, 14 September 2020 (UTC).

@Noswall59: this also looks like Google doesn't have a scan on hand. Normally when they do and it's not full view, there are snippets available. You can try asking them the review the PD status at [https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/6113327. If they don't have a scan, they'll tell you so. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 16:10, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

That's a shame, but thanks for checking. I've now contacted them. Best wishes, —Noswall59 (talk) 16:22, 14 September 2020 (UTC).

@Noswall59:: I see you found a copy (Index:Massingberd_-_Court_Rolls_of_the_Manor_of_Ingoldmells_in_the_County_of_Lincoln.pdf), but also the Google Books version became available (evidently they did have a copy and your appeal worked, congratulations!), which I have uploaded at File:Court Rolls of the Manor of Ingoldmells - 1902.pdf in case it's useful. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 23:20, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload:, yes: I discovered that copy on FamilySearch. Google were very quick with their response time as well -- I think their copy may be better quality, so thanks for uploading it! Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC).

Multiple editors, no authors

This volume has four editors (authors), and don't know how to list them on the main namespace. How can I resolve this? — Ineuw (talk) 21:42, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

@Ineuw: What's wrong with something like |override_editor = Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, and Matilda Joslyn? --Xover (talk) 22:09, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Nothing wrong. Just never used it or checked its use. Thanks for the help.— Ineuw (talk) 22:11, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I should have guessed. Just overthinking it a bit. Sorry. --Xover (talk) 16:02, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: You are not wrong and thanks for the help. I checked the links to the template but it's impossible to tell which document uses the parameter. Too little and too late on my part. — Ineuw (talk) 19:14, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

File sizes

I have been uploading Joanna Baillie volumes of plays. I have just uploaded Miscellaneous Plays 1804 but found immediately I had missed a page, so I added it and tried to update only to discover that the file size was 190Mb and a maximum of 100Mb is stated. I can only assume it must be using a higher resolution because previous sizes were 63 and 76Mb for similar sized volumes. Is there any way round this or should I try and recreate the volume at a lower resolution? Alternatively, can I use the uploaded file, even though its size is 181.3Mb? Esme Shepherd (talk) 17:52, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Another solution might be to split the book into sections. Would that be better? They could then be reunited on transclusion. Esme Shepherd (talk) 19:07, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

@Esme Shepherd: there is a script at Commons called bigChunkedUpload: add importScript('User:Rillke/bigChunkedUpload.js'); to your Commons common.js, and a link should appear under the file versions table, allowing you to upload the larger file over the original one. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 19:11, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Upload Wizard should handle the files above 100MB as well, see Commons:Maximum file size. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 20:14, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I am no using script, so splitting the file seems to be the only practical way forward. The volume consists of three plays, so I have split it into three and uploaded the three parts. I have found the 'Split file' template but cannot determine exactly where I should place this. Does it go on first or last pages? Presumably it should appear in all parts? Would you help me further on this, please?

Incidentally, as I mentioned the upload Wizard did handle the full file but it could not then be amended. Esme Shepherd (talk) 08:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

If you mean Commons:Template:split file, that should go in the "other versions" field of the files at Commons. See Commons:File:President_Obama_Speaks_to_the_Muslim_World_from_Cairo,_Egypt_(part_1).ogv for an example.

Alternatively, I can combine the three parts and upload using the chunked upload method if you'd prefer? Inductiveload—talk/contribs 08:52, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

There are also several other versions of the 1804 edition at the Internet Archive, for example https://archive.org/details/plamiscellaneous00bailrich -> File:Miscellaneous Plays - Baillie - 1804.djvu, which appears page-complete and also has the advantage of a reasonable OCR layer, considering the fairly rough printing. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 09:09, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

@Esme Shepherd: Please do not arbitrarily split up files. If you're having trouble uploading then ask for help here (as you've done) and we'll figure out some way to get it sorted. --Xover (talk) 09:38, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

What's the source for this scan? Did you scan it yourself, or did you download the scan images from somewhere? --Xover (talk) 09:41, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Esme Shepherd (talk) 10:01, 24 September 2020 (UTC) I haven't done anything further with it yet. The original file, which I still have, is a compound built up from the scans of 459 individual pages. Reducing the resolution would therefore be a very long process that I don't have time for. If you could combine the three parts in the manner you've described that would be great by me. I have prepared and edited a full OCR myself for uploading. This was necessary because the original text uses the old s symbol that reads as an f.

@Esme Shepherd: Do you still have the 459 individual image files? Or, alternately, if you downloaded these from the internet somewhere, can you provide a link to them? If we can get at the original scan images we can generate a new DjVu file and upload that for you.

Alternately, if we can get at the final fixed PDF file (the one that was too large) we can upload it to Commons on your behalf. Perhaps you could upload this or the images to a third party file hosting service like Dropbox from where we can download it and then reupload to Commons?

There are several people (myself included) that can upload files larger than 100MB, including overwriting your original upload if needed. There's a special script to do that which you can use yourself, but it isn't very user friendly so it may be preferable to figure out a way to let one of us do it. If you would like assistance with setting up and using the script yourself we would be happy to walk you through the process. It's not really very difficult, it just involves a little more technical fiddling than most people are comfortable with on their own.

In short, there are several options here, so we'll certainly figure out a solution. --Xover (talk) 10:16, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: re-concatenating the split files and reuploading with chucked uploads is easy enough. But the problem seems to be the images aren't compressed and there's a lot of all-white uncompressed images in the PDF ballooning the size. A book like this should be about 20MB, not 200MB (not that it matters a great deal once uploaded).

@Esme Shepherd: what format of images did you make the PDF from and how did you make it? Inductiveload—talk/contribs 10:29, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Esme Shepherd (talk) 11:46, 24 September 2020 (UTC) I know my method is not the most efficient but it gives the most control over how the volume appears: for instance, I can paste over any blemishes in the sourced PDF files and, on occasion, I have been able to add missing pages from another source. I do not have a PDF editor. The pages are scanned, pasted into Pages and then converted to PDF. Hence the size, but up to now, 400+ pages has only been about 60-70Mb. I uploaded the three parter as Miscellaneous Plays, Miscellaneous Plays 2, and Miscellaneous Plays 3. These are now surplus to requirements. I have just uploaded the full file, using the Wizard, as Miscellaneous Plays 1. I am happy with this if you are.

Search engine indexing

The Wikipedia information page on search engine indexing indicates that articles older than 90 days are automatically indexed. Articles younger than this can be indexed, but only if they are patrolled.

Is a similar policy in place at Wikisource, and if so what is the procedure for requesting early indexing? Dennis the Peasant (talk) 15:25, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Correcting an error in the source document

I do not really wish to develop the skills of a Wikisource proofreader. Nevertheless I am here because I have found an error. On checking with the scan, I find it is an error in the original document, not in the transcription. I am unclear how to make the correction.

The instance is this: Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900, Volume 05 Blayney, Benjamin by Henry Bradley

"BLAYNEY, BENJAMIN, D.D. (1728–1801), Hebrew scholar, was first a member of Worcester College, Oxford, where he graduated B.A. in 1750 and M.A. in 1753. He afterwards became fellow, and eventually vice-principal, of Hertford College, and took the degree of B.D. in 1768. He was employed by the Clarendon Press to prepare a corrected edition of the authorised version of the Bible. This edition, which has received very high praise for its accuracy, appeared in 1709. …" The date "1709" should read "1769" [see, for example amongst many other references, the Wikipedia entry "King James Version" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version#Standard_text_of_1769)]

Any guidance? Or, if you know what you are doing, would you like to take on the correction for me?

Jonathan Adams —unsigned comment by Jhajhajha (talk) .

@Jhajhajha: Fixed. Thanks for the error report. It is an error in the transcription, the print copy/scan are less than perfect though evident when expanded. — billinghurst sDrewth 01:40, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Pages in Report of the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives: Impeachment of Donald J. Trump, President of the United States

This page is effectively a duplicate of this page; the latter is superior. For effective transclusion, the former page needs to be deleted, and the text layer and pages moved accordingly. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 21:22, 10 October 2020 (UTC).

I just excluded the unsigned page (215) from the transclusion. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 18:02, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

some signs are displayed as numeric characters

Since one (or perhaps two) days on newly created pages like e.g. Page:The Zoologist, 4th series, vol 1 (1897).djvu/612 some signs are displayed as numeric characters. For instance: " as &# 34;, ' as &# 39;, ; as &# 59;, etc. This never happened before. Why does this happen now? Has there been an update of the software, which makes this happen? --Dick Bos (talk) 12:59, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

• See here, where it is currently being discussed. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 13:08, 15 October 2020 (UTC).

 This section is considered resolved, for the purposes of archiving. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. — billinghurst sDrewth 03:35, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

{{Blockquote}} over a page break?

Hi. I've got a quotation which runs just across the page break between here, and here. The original denotes the quotation by very slightly reducing the leading, which I have no intention of reproducing here on WS, but instead wish to use a simple Blockquote. However, I can't seem to make it work over the page break. I tried putting the closing }} on the first page in the footer, moving the opening {{Blockquote| to the header on the next page, but that didn't seem to work. Suggestions welcome, please... Thanks. CharlesSpencer (talk) 09:26, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

@CharlesSpencer: For this case we would typically use templates with start and end variants, like {{fine block/s}} and {{fine block/s}}. The trick is to keep in mind "What will the markup be in this single page?" and "What will the markup be when all pages are transcluded together?". You then put the template that starts some formatting where it first begins in the scan, and the stop template the very end; and everything in between goes in the header and footer fields so that they appear in the Page: namespace but will be left out (noinclude) when transcluded together. --Xover (talk) 09:42, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

@CharlesSpencer: I just use <blockquote> tags and ensure that they are header and footer broken, no point in trying to use templates. In fact I am doing one like that at this time, check Page:Home rule; Fenian home rule; Home rule all round; Devolution; what do they mean?.djvu/38 and its preceding page. Not transcluded at this point. — billinghurst sDrewth 02:48, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

And #FFS I am not even certain the point of the recent creation of the template. We have been working perfectly well with tags, and I find the addition of the template pointless, and in some ways more complicating to trackdown what ends where. — billinghurst sDrewth 02:51, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

No images

I'm not getting images for any of the individual pages of Index:The Grand junction railway companion to Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham; (IA grandjunctionrai00free).pdf - though I was initially.

I've restarted my machine, and I am seeing images for pages of other works. The PDF displays correctly when viewed in the 'File:' namespace. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:28, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing: Fixed. --Xover (talk) 11:32, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I've had problems before, with my trackpad scrolling fields unintentionally, while editing index pages. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:27, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Crawford's Officer's of State

I see plenty of references in WS to this work, but we don't seem to have it. Does anyone know the full author/title details? (I suspect that this is a shorthand, cf. "GEC, Peerage", for example). All the best! 2A02:C7F:BE04:700:B0C3:F665:5C5F:684C 17:10, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

This is presumably The Lives and Characters, of the Officers of the Crown, and of the State in Scotland, From the Beginning of the Reign of King David I. To the Union of the Two Kingdoms (1726) by George Crawfurd. NYPL has a copy, available through HathiTrust. If you'd like to work on it I can probably make you a DjVu and upload it here (but HathiTrust is down for maintenance just now). --Xover (talk) 18:18, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: Gah! I thought I was so clever. There's one at the British Library too (London, 1736 edition). It's pretty heavily discoloured and bled-through so it'll be a challenge to OCR.

Also both editions are replicated at Google Books (1726, 1736, but are a bit Googly). Inductiveload—talk/contribs 18:28, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Index:The Lives and Characters of the Officers of the Crown and of the State in Scotland - Crawfurd - 1736.djvu. The OCR actually came out "OK" (modulo long-s, natch), and the Tesseract page segmentation totally works better than Google's so, not a terrible result. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 19:19, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Notes in both margins

Please can someone advise me how mark up the notes, in both margins, on Page:The Grand junction railway companion to Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham; (IA grandjunctionrai00free).pdf/150, which show distances in miles along a railway line? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:08, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing: Based on looking at that page alone, I would probably be doing a three column table that spills over pages. — billinghurst sDrewth 02:41, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

That would mean putting the first mention of "Great Aston Embankment" in a separate cell to the start of its sentence. Likewise for the text relating to the second set of measurements (Tame Hill Cutting") on Page:The Grand junction railway companion to Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham; (IA grandjunctionrai00free).pdf/145. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:42, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Then we are going to need to come up with a new template hack. I would think that we would be doing something with a 1-column centred-table, that projects the numbers outside the table rather than pushes the page numbering to the outside edges of the page. It needs someone who can create a sidenote-like template —unsigned comment by Billinghurst (talk) 00:13, 20 October 2020‎.

Could you not use {{overfloat left}} and {{overfloat right}} rather than designing something new? Beeswaxcandle (talk) 03:34, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you; those seem to work; alongside a table used to create the vertical bars; I've made a test render at User:Pigsonthewing/Sandbox - what do you think? The only problem I can see is that figures that are close to each other in the column disappear at smaller font sizes. Can table cells be made to wrap pages? Is there an alternative method of creating those bars, without a table?Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:30, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Maybe you could set {{default layout|Layout 2}} in the main namespace page which would make the table narrower and so the numbers in the margins would not interfere. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 11:38, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Personally I would top the table with something like {{block center/s}} and tail it with {{block center/e}}. We don't need to allow it to push to 100% width. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:17, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Edit options of a three column page of text

What would be the best way to edit these pages? All opinions are welcome.

Another question: Is there a way to scan this page so that the text columns are placed consecutively? — Ineuw (talk) 01:55, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Single column, long discussed that we don't try to replicate running columns. When I transclude I will often block center where it is a simple(r) index. I use #anchors for start of each letter, and {{compactTOCalpha}} in the notes section. — billinghurst sDrewth 03:27, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

When editing this kind of mess where the three columns have got combined across instead of down, I usually copy and paste into a word processor and then do find and replace to fix the columns. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 03:37, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh, just download the individual jpg from archive.org zip file and take it somewhere and OCR. For best recognition of columns sometimes you have to try a couple. http://www.i2ocr.com/ just did a reasonable job on the page. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:44, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Also check out {{plainlist}}, which allows you to retain the semantic meaning of the list by using * and means you can avoid para breaks between lines and get a hanging indent if desired. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 08:49, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks to all. Also use a text processor but after going through the scanned text, it would mean a complete retype. A new OCR is my best option and thanks for the url.— Ineuw (talk) 00:58, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Modern spelling edition of John Ball's "A Treatise of the Covenant of Grace"

I would like to do a modern British spelling (not modernised wording) edition of the 1645 work "A Treatise of the Covenant of Grace". Examples of modern spelling would be "do" instead of "doe"; "symbolical" instead of "symbolicall"; "Sovereign" instead of "Soveraigne" but NOT "has" instead of "hath", NOT "innocence" instead of "innocency". That is, I would only re-spell if I would read the word aloud the same way whichever spelling was used. I incline to leave capitalisation, italics, etc, as is, to retain the feel of the old book without the barriers of spelling. I already prepared several chapters of modern spelling text of this book in the 1990s (nothing to do with Wikisource) so this should give me a head start, although I would carefully check such pre-made text against the original for each page of djvu.

Advice? --PeterR2 (talk) 23:08, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

• I believe {{custom substitution}} could be used for this purpose, although the template is not currently in use. An example: to replace “Soveraigne” with “Sovereign,” you would enter {{custom substitution|Soveraigne|Sovereign|archaic-spelling}}. The third parameter (“archaic-spelling”) would be the same for all such replacements, but should be standard across all works. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 23:42, 18 October 2020 (UTC).

  Ugh, no, please do not use {{custom substitution}} for this purpose. It was designed essentially as a backend for templates like {{long s}}, not for extensive inline use in pages (Inductiveload will correct me if I'm wrong). It is not really suitable for entire words (vs. single character substitutions) and for either use it has some technical limitations (both variant characters are emitted into the markup stream, but one is hidden with CSS). In fact, as it currently stands I question whether it should exist at all. --Xover (talk) 05:44, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

• @PeterR2: That is not really our gig, see WS:WWI. We reproduce works, not interpret or particularly annotate. Typically I would just find a later version of the work where there is a modernised spelling. Maybe see if English Wikibooks has an interest in what you are looking to achieve, and take it there. — billinghurst sDrewth 02:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
• Our annotations policy has traditionally been held to permit this, provided a clean original text exists first. But we do not have good technical facilities to enable it (cf. the point about the unsuitability of {{custom substitution}}) above. Since we require a clean version, and we can only have a single Index: page for a given scan, it is not currently possible for such an annotation to be scan-backed (which is sorta the raison d'être for Wikisource). It would be nice to be able to host some such annotated texts, and there are some possible ways we could enable that with software changes, but for right now you are probably going to be better off looking to WikiBooks as Billinghurst suggests. --Xover (talk) 06:04, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
• @Billinghurst:, @Xover: Despite this being a seminal work referred to in many books, unlike many other works of Puritans there is no later printing (whether Victorian or recent) apart from print-on-demand facsimiles. As far as I know I issued the first modern facsimile (apart from a basic photocopy published without ISBN), before Google Books scanned it and took away the market for my edition by providing the basis for POD facsimiles which have not been physically tidied up as mine has. I thought I had seen something about treating a modern spelling edition as a Wikisource original translation, but I can't find this now. I'm not clear what this is: User:Sbh/Clyomon/Scene_i/Modern_Spelling --PeterR2 (talk) 08:26, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

  I am not what you are asking. I have editing here a few years now, and the statements that I gave reflect what we have been telling people for years. We are not all things, we have a scope, and we provided what we see as a reasonable alternative. We don't tread in WB's space, and they don't tread in ours. — billinghurst sDrewth 08:57, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

• @PeterR2: Let me stand as an admin on your side. As Xover says, the annotations policy has traditionally been held to permit this. I don't see any reason to prohibit it here, especially if there was a good original transcription that would be worked from. I don't see any evidence that Wikibooks wants such works, so we wouldn't be treading on their space. Wikibooks says:

  Although we do not permit verbatim copies of pre-existing works, we do permit annotated texts, which are a kind of text that includes an original text within it and serves as a guide to reading or studying that text. Annotated editions of previously published source texts may only be written if the source text is compatible with the project's license. As a point of overlap between the two projects, Wikisource also allows the inclusion of annotated texts. If you would like to write a sparsely annotated text or a sparsely critical edition of a text, consider hosting your work more appropriately on Wikisource instead.

• Wikibooks:Annotated texts adds

  An annotated text contains ... Various kinds of study aids for understanding or teaching the text. These annotations may include introductions, explanatory notes, summaries, translations, questions and answers, charts, lists, indices, references, wikilinks, media, etc.

• So, yes, I believe this is good here provided we have a transcription of the original without respelling.--Prosfilaes (talk) 20:40, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

  If we had an existing version first, then we have a different answer Prosfilaes. The proposal, as I see it, was to just produce a version with modified spelling without producing a clean version, and without reference to scans. — billinghurst sDrewth 03:24, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

  Certainly my idea was to use a DJVU from Archive.org - In my original enquiry above, I said "I would carefully check such pre-made text against the original for each page of djvu" - in other words "scans". And I can understand if a "clean" version is necessary first, and also that a modern spelling edition may be regarded as a Wikisource original translation. In any case it was just an enquiry, and the idea of having to do the clean version first may make me carry on with the other projects I have been working on, rather than starting something new. I haven't decided yet. --PeterR2 (talk) 08:45, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

  OK @Prosfilaes: I'm uploading A Treatise of the Covenant of Grace using IAUpload for the purpose of creating a clean version. It says The author 'John Ball' doesn’t have a creator template. So I've set up a Creator:John_Ball_(1585-1640) at Wikimedia Commons with data from Wikidata. Do I change the "Author" in the "Commons Description" from "John Ball" to "John Ball (1585-1640)", or what? --PeterR2 (talk) 23:30, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

How to make tables align to the right?

Also refer to Index:Prevention of Child Pornography Ordinance (Cap. 579).pdf, page 17 (A1415) of the document. So how can I make a border-less table align to the right when transcribing the file? Many thanks.廣九直通車 (talk) 01:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

@廣九直通車: Template:Table style is our uniform formatting space, and see Help:Tables. When you say align table, do you actually mean the table, or the column? For a column that needs to be right-aligned, we would need to mark the respective cells in that column with {{ts|ar}}. Plenty of examples around. — billinghurst sDrewth 02:39, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Follow up. Typically we would not right align the table itself, and we would center it with something like {{ts|mc}}. It is one of those bits of formatting that just usually make sense when reproducing. — billinghurst sDrewth 03:38, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. Nothing on that page is actually right-aligned. If you look carefully at the text you'll find all similar pieces of text are aligned along their left edges, and variable amounts of left margins, with some blocks additionally having a hanging indent. What looks like right alignment is actually just justified text that wraps at the right margin. --Xover (talk) 05:33, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, but how can I achieve such effect? I mean, the way they inserting the schedule is similar to using ":" to make texts move to the right (not sure about the exact phrase), but how can I make a table achieve this? Many thanks.廣九直通車 (talk) 12:19, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

@廣九直通車: Hanging indent => {{ts|it}} is a set version — billinghurst sDrewth 14:17, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

@廣九直通車: If you want to shift table position from the center of a page, then use the codes {{ts|fll}} or {{ts|flr}}, meaning float table to the left or to the right.— Ineuw (talk) 17:12, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Help with Translation...

Hi, I am working on the "Novalis" page for Wikipedia, and after a thorough search, I've found that there is no free translation available for a work by Novalis, called Glauben und Liebe oder Der König und die Königin (Faith and Love or the King and the Queen). I feel this is a gap in the Novalis project.

I figured I have sufficient knowledge in German, knowledge of available translations, and access to machine translation (along with fluid use of translation tools) to create a functional copy for public access.

I looked at the de.wikisource.org page on Novalis and see that the essay is linked externally to etext.zeno. Using external links seems to violate translation guidelines, does it?

I have found the original Germanpages I need in archive.org, but the rules for translation seem more complex, involving things like interwiki links to pre-existing pages and the like.

Could you possibly give me some guidelines so I can create a translation for the page. Thank you for your help!Wtfiv (talk) 21:14, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

@Wtfiv: I have uploaded all four volumes of the Novalis Schriften to Commons. Since they were published in 1907 and the editor died in 1912, they're PD in US and in the origin country of Germany. I have created the index pages (transcription volumes: 1, 2, 3, 4) too. The section in question is Volume 2, p146.

You can translate the work in the Page: namespace here at English Wikisource, so the image shows German and the text you enter is in English. This makes it easier for an interested party to "validate" your translation against the original. It is transcluded as usual, but to the Translation: namespace.

Remember that you may not incorporate any still-copyrighted translated material into your own translation, even if it's a paraphrase! Inductiveload—talk/contribs 23:14, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload:. Thank you very much! This makes the work much easier! And yes, I don't plan to use the copyrighted translations, except as something to interrogate, as I go along. (No intention to paraphrase, but thanks for the reminder!) Fortunately, the edit history will be preserved which will provide documentation of the translation process along the way. I very much appreciate your help, and your very quick response! No, I'll have to tackle wrapping my head around just getting started on my first Wikisource project.Wtfiv (talk) 23:25, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

@Wtfiv: great! Just take it easy and let me know if you run into any obstacles.

One thing when translating against page scans is that sometimes you can't have the same pagebreaks, especially when a language like German very long sentences has and the verb right at the end geputt ist. So don't worry too much if you have to "hoist" the entire English sentence onto the prior page or something.

I started you off with a single roughly translated sentence at Page:Novalis Schriften - Volume 2.djvu/156 so you can see what I mean. Of course you can remove it and replace with a better rendering!

I'm off for the moment, but leave me messages and I'll have a look tomorrow. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 00:05, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Thank you again! I think I'm going to be able to start the process. It may take me a bit of time to get going, but your help has made this seem...at this point at least...easy enough. Thanks also for posting all the getting started materials on my talk page. It's good to know that if I need help, you are out there!Wtfiv (talk) 01:50, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Import to-be-deleted file from Commons

Could the file File:Lustra (private print) - Ezra Pound - Frontispiece.jpg please be imported from Commons before it gets deleted? It turns out it has UK copyright (photograph d. 1966), but it's used in a 1916 work here (Lustra). Inductiveload—talk/contribs 10:24, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Done and that is 20x harder than it needs to be. I will see if I can get imagetransfer.py to be updated for some sort of force or overwrite, rather than tell me NO as it is at Commons. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:34, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! Inductiveload—talk/contribs 11:37, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Index:Ruffhead_-_The_Statutes_at_Large,_1763.djvu

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Index:Ruffhead_-_The_Statutes_at_Large,_1763.djvu

For some reason this was raw OCR dumped at some point, In places the OCR is very poor, and the scans not necessarily as readable as would be desirable, when compared against the source material at IA.

I am wondering if there is a way to remove all the 'dumped' OCR, so that someone with the time can do it PROPERLY.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:56, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: The contributor in question alleges that this is not raw OCR (if I understand correctly, they consider it to be "partially proofread" and appear to take offence at it being characterised as "raw OCR"), and is vehemently opposed to deleting such pages. That means the only avenue to removing it is a community discussion at WS:PD. --Xover (talk) 16:59, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Well if it's considered 'partially' proofread, then I'll withdraw the discussion. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:17, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

resolved ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

• I believe you are mistaken, Xover: the text referenced was that here, for example; the actual creation of pages is not by any stretch of the imagination even ‘partially’ proofread, it is (for the most part, some works may have been more proofread) entirely the OCR output, with no valuable change. This has been done to many works, and (for me, at least) discourages me from working on the work in question. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 20:28, 14 November 2020 (UTC).

  Note that I did not say that I agreed with the assertion. I merely advised that there is currently no policy or clear community consensus that would allow any admin to delete such pages, and as such the only avenue for deleting them is proposing that at WS:PD. --Xover (talk) 21:12, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

A problem with Template:CoR65 para/s

If you go to Page:Constitution of Rhodesia, 1965.pdf/28, you will see that this page has (i), and because it’s not the same level as (1), (2) I tried to type CoR65 para/s|4|(i), but I didn’t work. I think this houle be added because if I do para/s|3|(i), it will be shown on the same level as (1), and it isn’t that way in the real document. -ElfSnail123 (talk) 13:29, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload:, I see that you have created the template. Can you please help? Thanks in advance, -ElfSnail123 (talk) 20:23, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@ElfSnail123: I have adjusted the CSS, please take a look and see if {{CoR65 para/s|4|(i)}} works for you now. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 21:36, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much! It works! -ElfSnail123 (talk) 09:46, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Template for algin vertical & flip image

Is there any template to vertically align text and image to page centre? Also, looking for a template to flip an image. 991joseph (talk) 15:04, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

As far as I know there is no template to align text vertically. Pages in the main namespace do not have fixed height, so such a template would not make much sense in most cases. What do you need it for?

I am not sure what you mean by flipping an image. If you mean mirror images, we do not have such a template. There is only a template {{FreedImg}} which enables to rotate images, see Adding classes to the image. However, we usually do not rotate images, unless there is a real reason to do so. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:21, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Depending on what is wanted to be achieved for aligning vertically, there is {{block center}} with a width parameter; {{vertical text}}; or {{vrl}}. If we had some idea of which page you wanted to do this on, we'd be better able to advise. In respect to rotating images, if the image has been imported with wrong orientation, then the best solution is to rotate it off-wiki in image manipulation software and re-upload. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 22:30, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek, @Beeswaxcandle: Thanks for your input. Sorry for the late reply. I didn't get any notification when you replied, although this was page was in my watchlist. I mostly contribute to Malayalam Wikisource. I came across a page (it's the cover page) of a book where the title and illustration are vertically aligned to the centre of the page. So, wanted to know whether there is any template in English Wikisource to achieve this. Also, came across a page of the same book where an illustration is also appearing flipped vertically in the source. I later achieved this by using the {{Rotate}}.--Joseph 💬 07:10, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

OK, gotcha. We don't normally bother about centering vertically on a page because that's an artefact of the printing process, whereby the text is made to look pretty on a printed page. Instead we're putting the content of the printed pages on to web-pages. That said, there is {{dhr}}, which can be used to insert some space before and after some text.

In respect of the lamp illustration, this is a watermark that the scanner has picked up and reproduced. Because of the way that large sheets of paper are printed on and then folded before forming a book, the watermark will be found in various orientations. It's certainly not something that needs to be reproduced in the Wikisource version. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 07:34, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

It's not the lamp watermark I tried to reproduce, it's the decorated lines that are seen above and below the text. Anyhow thanks for the help.--Joseph 💬 13:55, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Sandbox1

Okay why does this not work? I was using {{Authority reference}}, BUT NOTHING defined in the respect of the content concerned, displays. Have I failed to find yet another typo, because it's getting tiresome trying to find a workable solution for the cross-references in the margin for the source work used. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:23, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

{{authority reference}} was broken by this edit. It should be fixed now. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 12:01, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

That sovles that issue, I am now seeing an error about a template loop. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:02, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Section names being converted into text

I have noticed some edits similar to this one recently; when editing the page, the ##section## text which should be represented as <section begin="section" /> displays as

1. 1. section##

Does anyone know why this happens, or how to stop it from happening? TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:11, 17 November 2020 (UTC).

It's a problem with the Easy LST gadget. When a page with sections set up using it is edited by an editor who has it switched off, the double-hash code will sometimes change into an ordered list—which is what a # command beginning a line is usually interpreted to mean. IMO Easy LST was one of the sillier additions here and has caused far more problems than it is worth. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 01:51, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@Beeswaxcandle: If it is problematic, then we remove it, and if anyone is truly attached to it, then users can implement it through turning it on in their common.css. The conversion happens at the time of editing, so turning it off should not impact any pages without consequences to the existing pages and future pages. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:23, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I am for once going to disagree with you both on this one. I think EasyLST is brilliant, making this otherwise obscure syntax approachable and understandable to users, and I can recall only a single instance where it has caused problems. Considering the Gadget has sat more or less untouched for 5+ years while MediaWiki changes have been rolling on, I am downright amazed at its robustness.

Don't get me wrong, I do see your point; but for me, so far, the pros far outweigh the cons. --Xover (talk) 06:22, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I have to agree with Xover: East LST is really helpful, especially as section tags are more complex than they seem. For example, you are technically able to omit start or end tags, and you can interleave sections. Both of these abilities have theoretical uses, but generally end up going wrong at transclusion time in confusing ways. The #### format is more restricted (consecutive sections that end before the next one starts) and IMO is way clearer for non-power users.

The other thing about Easy LST's technique is that if it does go wrong, the markup renders badly, but the #### wikicode is still there, so it can be re-edited and saved (with Easy LST hopefully getting it right) without complex intervention. For example, simply editing TE(æ)A,ea.'s example with Easy LST on and saving inserts the sections correctly.

How often does Easy LST drop that ball? I don't think I've ever seen it, except when it chokes on some manually-entered section syntax (e.g. when a start tag is missing).

@TE(æ)A,ea.: how many other edits have you seen: it's possible there's some quirk of the exact pages which is triggering some defect in Easy LST? Has anyone ever seen this happen to themselves? Inductiveload—talk/contribs 08:38, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• I remember seeing it only one or two other times, and they were not by this user nor related to this specific work. I do not remember where they occurred, however. Edit: I have tested it here; you seem to be right, the tool picks up on the initial “##” as the first item of a numbered list. All that is required to correct it is for a user to edit the page without using the tool. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 22:34, 17 November 2020 (UTC).

@TE(æ)A,ea.: it works for me. I have the gadget on. I edit that page, it shows ##s in the wikicode and when I preview, it turns them to section tags. How are you getting it to save with the ##s? Inductiveload—talk/contribs 23:17, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• I selected the pen icon, visible in this image (to the left of the OCR buttons). Upon selecting this, and only upon selecting this, have I been able to load the page as using a numbered list. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 02:19, 18 November 2020 (UTC).

@TE(æ)A,ea.: a-ha! So the syntax highlighting is what breaks it. This isn't that surprising since the editor becomes a vety complex mini-web-app when in syntax mode. I'll have a look, if this gadget breaks, quite a few other scripts may break too. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 08:18, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@TE(æ)A,ea.: I have modified the gadget so that it works for the syntax highlighing edit box. Could you give it a go and see if it also works for you?

For the record, the issue was that editbox.value = text; doesn't work on the syntax highlighted editor, but $(editbox).val(text); does. I've also applied some other tidy-ups and added Help:Gadget-Easy LST documentation for it. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 10:37, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• Yes, the tool no longer causes the page to load incorrectly. The code is still highlighted as if it were a numbered list. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 14:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC).

Good to hear. I'm not sure supporting the ##-syntax in the syntax highlighter is possible without server-side support from the CodeMirror extension. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 15:05, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

User:ShakespeareFan00/common.js

How do I get the dynamic layout to ACTUALLY appear? As opposed to just being present in my common.js? Thanks. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 16:29, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Looks like a JS load order issue. Adding the following before it

if (self.ws_layouts === undefined) {
  self.ws_layouts = {};
}

works for me. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 09:12, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

File:ManInBrownSuit-Christie.pdf

This is not an original file; it is merely generated from the Project Gutenberg text. A suitable alternative may be found here, if someone wants to replace, (and, preferably, proofread,) the file (work). TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 03:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC).

Done @TE(æ)A,ea.: file replaced and index updated. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 09:06, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

index page layout roman numerals

This index page has roman numerals starting Djvu #12 as roman numeral vi and ending with djvu #41 and roman numeral xxxv. Can someone show me if and how it's possible start with vi and auto increment? — Ineuw (talk) 20:02, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

The secret ingredient is 12to41=roman 12=6. You can also use highroman for I, II, III, IV, etc. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 20:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I had very little need of roman until now.— Ineuw (talk) 20:38, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Content review : Template:Dropinitial/testcases

First testcase example, the repair is minimal but it solves a long standing rendering anomaly with the fl parameter.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Okay this change should have worked without issue. - But when I change the main-template the documentation breaks, so what should be a a SIMPLE re-ordering of where certain content is generated, turns into yet another hunt the BUG (not of my making) BECAUSE of some obscure interaction that can't be pinned down definitively. Sigh .

I have checked the examples given using Special:ExpandTemplates and they expand without causing any problems in respect of both the main template and the Sandbox version.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:07, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

It's seems I can't read.. In the mainspace edits, I'd made a copy paste error, and UTTERLY failed to notice it . I'm sorry to ask, but I think I am going to need a script that I can use to stop me editing templates. Or this template which is highly visible needs more protection.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:26, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Per your request, I have restricted your access to Template: ns for a month. If there are clear errors or clear problemst then please use {{edit protected}} on the corresponding talk page. 06:22, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:36, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Request for watermark removal on Google Books's version of Waylaid by Wireless, and upload to Commons

https://books.google.com/books?id=Y2siAAAAMAAJ I know there is an upload of this book to archive.org, but it is a poorer quality version because the title page on that scan is degraded. PseudoSkull (talk) 06:08, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

@Ineuw: as an example of someone I saw in the archives of this page having helped with this type of thing. PseudoSkull (talk) 06:11, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: is the PDF available for download by you from Google Books? It's not showing for me, but might be a geolocation thing. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 06:21, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Try this link: https://books.googleusercontent.com/books/content?req=AKW5QafcX_f50Lm46d7o1CALfRdkKqnkZ67WxUfW3z-KIGFArIf_orw7yze4QYtVHtR-0w4qUDADojPRDxVe-DicsQYTpQXtMzFV1uJVIhrcJ60F2qABmTdbZlTzOo-Ml3XWiXKJzKCU4iOayLLEtxgXCzLxO7Z-WfvIj5IlVN5DuO1IDytvfZTp1R_PZF-k2WPi4ltnwZGj8NOvAWbWfQv89vuoPVV-ZqDDQRB0YagAdGWJZO8Tyy7iRjCVQ_mjXrJ79-icBsin PseudoSkull (talk) 06:23, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Whole scan looks to be of suspect quality. — billinghurst sDrewth 06:25, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Yep. Standard Google scan. The Hathi version is much better: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433074801253. It's actually the exact same book (NYPL, same stamp position), so I guess Google just smashes the files with a super-intense MRC compressor for public access and Hathi somehow gets better images. I'm converting it now. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 06:34, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

And here we go: Index:Waylaid by Wireless - Balmer - 1909.djvu. Enjoy. Original images can be obtained from Hathi directly (please don't extract from the DjVu). See H:EXTRACT or I can do it for you. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 07:03, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Thank you for taking the time to do this, but is it possible for you to make a clipped version without the Google and NYPL watermarks? Thanks. PseudoSkull (talk) 07:23, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

It's technically possible, but it's not really necessary as that text is insufficient to attract copyright (thanks, Google for using a wordmark!). The Google cover pages are a bit more suspect, but no one really seems to care at Commons any more. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 07:26, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Done, since it's not too difficult in this case. But some books have the watermarks too close to text to do it easily. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 07:55, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't see the message in time, but keep me on your list. — Ineuw (talk) 19:58, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

File import from Commons

Hi, could File:Letters of Aurungzebe - tr. Bilimoriya - 1908.djvu please be imported from Commons? It's a 1908 work and I can't find an author death date, so it fails Template:PD-old-assumed by 8 years. On the other hand, the title page also says it was registered in 1867, so I'm not sure where it stands. Thanks, Inductiveload—talk/contribs 18:01, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: I didn't understand. Do you want to import it to Wikisource or link it from the commons?— Ineuw (talk) 01:24, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

I had thought it would need to come here, because it was published in 1908 and therefore is less than 120 years old. But the original may actually be 1867 and therefore A-OK at Commons. So now I'm not sure. Or maybe someone can work out when the author died? Inductiveload—talk/contribs 01:28, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

1867 just seems to refer to the year of the copyright act. India is life+60, so PD assumed should be 110 years; I'm not sure I'd stress about moving it until someone wants to argue the matter.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:31, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

I have found two bits of information about the translator: He passed I.A. in 1902 from Wilson College, Bombay (1) and passed B.A. in Persian from the same college, under Bombay University, in 1905 (2). Accordingly, his birth year was 1902 - 18 = 1884. Hrishikes (talk) 06:46, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

SP template.

Hi,

Does someone have the ability to generate a list of all invocations of this template that have a second or third argument supplied?

I was wanting to check for a subtle and not obvious mistake in assuming the second argument to this template is the end (unspaced of a word or phrase) when that should be the third arugment supported by {{lp}} instead.

Thanks.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:28, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

@Xover:, @Inductiveload:? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:39, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm looking for calls like {{sp|WOR|D.}} Thanks. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:50, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Should be possible.

The real question that'll bake your noodle is how many calls to either {{sp}} or {{lsp}} without the 3rd parameter are actually correct in the first place. The CSS letter spacing juts out at the end, so it's very common that even if there isn't un-spaced punctuation at the end ({{lsp|1em|SPACE|D.}} → SPACED.), it should be {{lsp|1em|SPACE|D}} → SPACED, not {{lsp|1em|SPACED}} → SPACED. It rarely makes much of a difference, but it can skew things like centering:

SPACED
SPACED

Inductiveload—talk/contribs 17:25, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

• A system for this does already exist (here), but it doesn’t work on English Wikisource. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 17:49, 25 November 2020 (UTC).

A bulk move

The Sketchbook of Geoffrey Crayon to The Sketchbook of Geoffrey Crayon (1819) as there are several different versions. --RaboKarbakian (talk) 17:47, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

@RaboKarbakian: Done, but please check for link breakage, since many links are not relative. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 22:42, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Image transclusion

Is there a policy for where images should be placed in relation to the text they're around? I see in Waylaid by Wireless the page before the image appears ends with a hyphenated word, and on the page after the image the hyphenated word ends. So how would we transclude the image and the text together? PseudoSkull (talk) 22:32, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

I suggest using {{hws}} and {{hwe}}. Then the word will stay divided in the page namespace, but it will be connected into one in the main namespace. The picture can be displayed using {{img float}}, then the image will float in the text and the text will not end in the middle of a line before the image. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 22:41, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Naming conventions for certain U. N. works

I was thinking specifically about (United Nations) Security Council works. Resolutions are listed at “United Nations Security Council Resolution x,” which is possible because the numbers are sequential over the years, and are not repeated. I was thinking of adding some works like “Small arms and light weapons” (S/2015/289), a “Report of the Secretary-General.” How should this be listed? The final number (289) is not unique, so some reference to the title will be necessary; perhaps “Small arms and light weapons (No. 289 of 2015)?” Also, is this work in the public domain? I think it should be, but I’m not sure, so confirmation would be much appreciated. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 19:42, 16 November 2020 (UTC).

How about a postal for U. N. works modeled after Chinese Wikisource?--Jusjih (talk) 03:56, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Centered heading with floated right text..

{{center|{{float right|Regulation 17(1)}}<span>SCHEDULE 16<br>PERMITTED VARIANTS</span>}}

Regulation 17(1)SCHEDULE 16
PERMITTED VARIANTS

Doesn't format correctly, Suggestions? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:40, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: Hacky workaround:

{{c|style=position:relative;|1={{float right|Regulation 17(1)}}<span style="position:absolute">SCHEDULE 16<br>PERMITTED VARIANTS</span>}}{{dhr|3}}

Regulation 17(1)SCHEDULE 16
PERMITTED VARIANTS

 

CSS text-align next to a floating element will take the size of the floating element's box into account, otherwise the float and the non-floating content could overlap in some situations. The workaround is to make the non-float absolutely positioned. It's a hack, but it should be good enough for one or two cases. If it's a common occurence we'll have to look for something a little less fragile and gross. --Xover (talk) 14:31, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

This will be a common issues with other SCHEDULE headings in the document this came from. For some reason using {{right block}} temporarily solved it, but a longer term solution would be nice :)ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:51, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Examples :

• Page:The_Traffic_Signs_Regulations_and_General_Directions_2002_(UKSI_2002-3113_qp).pdf/384
• Page:The_Traffic_Signs_Regulations_and_General_Directions_2002_(UKSI_2002-3113_qp).pdf/388

I wonder what legislation.gov.uk is doing ... - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/schedule/15/made because it can do this formatting without concern. Hmm, maybe someone needs to look into this more deeply.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:28, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Xover, I note the CSS stylesheets for secondary legislation on legislation.gov.uk has an OGL notice on it. Would you be willing to figure out how to adapt it into something that's usable on Wikisource? No point re-inventing a wheel if a Govt IT project's already done it :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:36, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

another bulk move

Tales of a Traveler to Tales of a Traveler (unsourced) --RaboKarbakian (talk) 16:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Ivanhoe to Ivanhoe (unsourced) --RaboKarbakian (talk) 17:43, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

The Adventures of Captain Bonneville to The Adventures of Captain Bonneville (unsourced)--RaboKarbakian (talk) 05:00, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@RaboKarbakian: done. Again, please check for broken links and so on. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 09:36, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Class fails to apply

In this stylesheet I apply a display:none to hide a Table row that should not display in mainspace: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Template:Table_class/toc.css

However that style is failing to apply when actually used : https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Sandbox1&oldid=10680863

What ACTUALLY broke this time please? because I do not like to be made to feel stupid, when code that WAS previously working as designed unexpectedly fails to do so, with no good explanation. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:47, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

The reason it failed to apply if anyone is still listening at this point, was that I'd used a raw .ns0 . Someone made a variant on the fix I suggested on the talk page to qualifer this as body.ns0 and it all started working again.

My apologies to everyone here, I really need to check my own coding efforts more closely. 19:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

A Wild-goose Chase (1915)

This is going to be my next book, I've [already decided, since it's Balmer's next published novel, and I'll start on it] when I'm done with Waylaid by Wireless. I found both a Google Books scan and a Hathi scan for the book, as was recommended to me before, but it seems this is yet another obscure title with less-than-ideal scans.

If the Hathi scan is in better quality than the Books scan in this case as well, we have a significant problem with the "LIBRIS POLARIS" image on page 2; it is covered by the transparent watermark on the right (part of the words "Original from" is stuck on the image itself). So we can't do what we did last time with Waylaid by Wireless and just clip the bottom part off the page; we will have to leave the labels there I guess... But as for processing that image itself I will need that transparent watermark taken off when the time comes. Know of any open-source tools that might be able to do this job? Or should I just take the lower-quality image with no exceeding watermark over the higher quality with a watermark? PseudoSkull (talk) 18:39, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

• That appears to be an ex libris marking, and would not need to be included in the final version. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 19:27, 28 November 2020 (UTC).
  • In that case, this will now be a DJVU upload request. @Inductiveload: Could you download the Hathi scan of this book and upload it for me, as was done before? It appears that you need a membership to download entire PDFs from Hathi even if they're in the public domain. PseudoSkull (talk) 20:58, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
    • You can download some scans as a whole from HathiTrust; however, they prohibit that if the scans were digitized by a “partner” (which is always Google). As such, higher-quality Google scans hosted on HathiTrust must be downloaded as individual pages and then reassembled (unless one has Google access on HathiTrust). TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 22:10, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
    • @PseudoSkull: Here you go, fresh off the OCR: Index:A Wild-Goose Chase - Balmer - 1915.djvu. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 22:50, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
    • And just to follow up on TE(æ)A,ea.'s comment:
      • We don't replicate things like ex libris stickers or library markings, etc.
      • The watermarks are not really considered an issue, they don't attract copyright, especially as the Google wordmark is considered public domain by Commons as a simple wordmark (it's still trademark, just not copyrighted). If a watermark does overlap an image we want to keep, either find a new source for the image (e.g. an alternative scan) or, in this case it's such a minor overlap, it can just be ignored, I don't think a few pixels of the grey top of the "m" would be noticed by anyone, even if they were looking for it. In the worst case of a very intrusive watermark, a tweak in GIMP would be fine in my book.
    • Inductiveload—talk/contribs 23:18, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Well it seems that I missed that I need to upload the cover image to the front matter page of our e-book, and the bottom part of that cover page has the transparent watermarks, and I'd like them removed for the cover so we can have a representation of it in the mainspace without the unoriginal watermarks. It's bad enough that there's a bar code tag on it (which we really can't help at this point since that was on it when scanned). I haven't seen any better scans of the cover online. There's probably a way to remove transparent watermarks with GIMP, but search results haven't given me much of use in that regard. We should have a whole Wikisource help page on how to remove watermarks. Is there an easy way? PseudoSkull (talk) 04:47, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: to be honest, I've never tried. Commons:Graphics Lab may be able to help out. My intuition says a bit of clone tool will probably be all that's needed. Since there are also photos of the un-bebarcoded cover, there a chance with enough judicious editing the whole cover can be reconstructed to a decent degree of accuracy, mostly limited by the amount of time and effort put in.

If anyone does have a good tutorial for this, we should indeed have such a help page. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 19:43, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Automating page headings

The page headings with Template:rh seem like something we ought to be automating more. It's mathematic (for the books I've seen); the bot just has to know which pages are left or right pages, and which pages are the starts of chapters, or images, etc. In the book I'm doing now, it's just {left: "22 BOOK NAME", right: "CHAPTER NAME 23"}. Of course some of the chapter names are shortened in the headers, so I would have to tell the bot specifically what to call the chapters each time I do this, but it'd still be a shorter job overall than to do all the headers manually for each page.

Can I bring my bot User:AutoSkull over from Wiktionary so I can do this to books I transcribe after they've been otherwise proofread, instead of having to do them manually at the time? Or is there already a bot that does something like this? PseudoSkull (talk) 22:45, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull:: there isn't a bot that does this, but there are scripts to help. For example User:Inductiveload/Running header.js. Which I should clean up and make into a gadget one day. Install by adding to your common.js:

mw.loader.load("//en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=User:Inductiveload/Running_header.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript");

A bot does make sense, but the configuration makes it a bit unwieldy for general use. Maybe if we came up with a simple format to tell it what to do and people can submit jobs to it. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 22:56, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

 Comment Are you using the header and footer parts of the index page? Also, are you aware of the use of {{{pagenum}}} in headers/footers? Personally I just add {{RunningHeader||}} and then usually stick a bar between the heading and the page number text, block it and move it up. [One ends up fiddling with it either way.] Not that I am that anal about header's formatting. I get the text right, and if I want to get the spacing/formatting right, then I too would bot it after completion. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:10, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

There is also a good template {{Recto-verso header}} that can be used for different odd and even pages in combination with {{{pagenum}}}. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 23:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Gaps between pages on transclusion

I have just notice this morning for the first time, that a gap of one line has appeared between every page on transclusion. I note looking at previous work, that this gap has appeared everywhere and there does not seem to be any way of removing it. This makes it now impossible to reproduce the original works in the form in which they were published. Has something strange occurred? Esme Shepherd (talk) 12:18, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

@Esme Shepherd: This was apparently only happening between poem pages due to them being enclosed in divs, with an interaction with the new two-level spans in MediaWiki:Proofreadpage pagenum template (which allow linking to the page using only the index in the DjVu/PDF, as well as linking by the original page number). I have adjusted the PageNumbers gadget to take care of it. I no longer see it, for example, at Miscellaneous Plays/Rayner Act 1. Thanks for the report! Inductiveload—talk/contribs 13:33, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Esme Shepherd (talk) 13:55, 4 December 2020 (UTC) Thank you for your help. It all seems to be back to normal now.

The Achievements of Luther Trant (1910)

Could @Inductiveload: or someone else please go ahead and prepare one of the first two scans listed at this Hathi page for proofreading? I'm nearly done with A Wild-Goose Chase and will be finished with it entirely within a few days.

P.S.: The frontispiece on those two scans does have that imprint on it, but the third scan does not have that imprint. Problem with the third [Harvard] scan is that for some reason the pages on that one are MAJORLY screwed, as in they are all out of order, for some odd reason. So I would prefer if one of the first two scans were taken for the Index page, and I can deal with the frontispiece issue from there. PseudoSkull (talk) 06:28, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: Index:The achievements of Luther Trant - Balmer and MacHarg - 1910.djvu. It's the Califonia one. It appears page-complete, so enjoy! Inductiveload—talk/contribs 12:50, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

File:Duke University Libraries (IA carysnewitinerar01cary).pdf

Over compressed scans, but because the PDF is on Commons already IA-Upload refuses to let me upload a new djvu toget better scans from the JP2 version.

Anyone want to generate a higher quality version of this? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:35, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Template:Collapse_bottom

Can someone undo this edit: https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Collapse_bottom&oldid=10692472

It's broken stuff. Don't know why it was redirected because it needs the additional DIV closure ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:35, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: Done. CC Jan.Kamenicek. --Xover (talk) 17:36, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Index:Cary's New Itinerary (1819).djvu

Can anyone get any sanity out of the OCR layer on this?

The OCR provided is junk when it comes to the tabular form used in the main portion of the work:(. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:51, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Index ns, page number layout displaces other features

Index:History of Woman Suffrage Volume 2.djvu This book's 1,000 page layout displaces the "Table of contents" box.— Ineuw (talk) 13:07, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Ineuw: You're forcing a pixel width on the ToC that exceeds the 30% of the page width allocated to it. You're also using obsolete HTML width attributes, and you're using unitless numbers (460 what? pixels? ems? percent?). I don't understand why you are specifying a width for these at all: it's basically a two-column table that will auto-size to the desired result on its own. If the concern is that the left column will get too wide on ultra-wide screens I recommend using Layout 2 on transclusion (it limits the width to a comfortable line length for reading) or, if you must, using a max-width to limit it. But keep in mind, as with all digital design, what you see on your display is not necessarily representative of what others will see on different devices with different settings, so hard-code as few assumptions as you possibly can. --Xover (talk) 15:44, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

On my screen, for example, the layout (pages) end ~300px before the table of contents. Also, shouldn’t the title and colophon (for this and the other volumes) be given as text, and not as images? TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 16:26, 9 December 2020 (UTC).

Also, setting max-width to a value in ems rather than px is probably closer to what one wants if one is trying to constrain a table to not get significantly wider than the printed equivalent, while still allowing to shrink with the page on narrow screens. Using px essentially "bakes in" assumptions about a "normal" font size (notionally usually about 16px) which is simply not true for all users, such as e-readers with large font sizes and people with large system fonts due to visual impairment or other reasons. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 17:40, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks to all. % was a typo and corrected the error.— Ineuw (talk) 19:42, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Ineuw: I don't think you need either of those fixed-width divs. As it is, the page extends off the right for anyone with a window that's less than 700 + 500 + (width of sidebar) > 1200px. That's a lot of devices and includes people with 1080p monitors who have the windows split side-to-side, as well as basically all mobile devices.

What is it that doesn't work when you don't have any divs? Inductiveload—talk/contribs 05:20, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

 Comment consider use of {{scrollpane}} and just let it flow without any other inhibitors. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:06, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
Thanks for all the info. Using <div> in the index page was from times prior to the 16:9 display and I stopped using it. Now I am removing it when found. @Xover:, setting the paragraph width to 460 or 475 was another old issue I had with aligning the left margin of the hanging indent with unindented paragraphs. Now it's removed when I come across it. Also, an HTML measurement without a unit designation is automatically 'px'. @Billinghurst: Thanks for the suggestion of the scroll window but I am satisfied now and won't use additional templates. @Inductiveload: I will also re-examine my use of measurements other than pixels. I've done experiments with other units but only in relation to font sizes.— Ineuw (talk) 02:33, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

HathiTrust scans for The Science of Advertising (1910) and The Surakarta (1913)

The Science of Advertising

The Surakarta

@Inductiveload: Could you get these for me? I'm a few days from being done with Luther Trant the full novel, then I'll validate the Luther Trant short story The Hammering Man absent from that novel, and then I'll go for these two. Thanks! PseudoSkull (talk) 10:13, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: File:The Science of Advertising (1910).djvu, File:The Surakarta (1913).djvu. --Xover (talk) 19:39, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

template manager and template wizard

I started to play with some of the gadgets. I discovered that the wizard likes the manager, so I started to use the manager.

This question is about {{Plainlist}}. I set "1" for Content in the manager but the Wizard eats my list, which was selected. I tried it with my mobile device first and then with a desktop, thinking that the device text selector was limited. Now, I am thinking that it is the fault of how I used the manager.

Is there help for this?--RaboKarbakian (talk) 18:49, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Now it seems that my mis-management might have broken it, as the template needs "1=" to work.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 19:22, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Booth Tarkington's screenplay Magnolia (apparently from 1904)

Here is a mention of the play, giving some detail about it, as it apparently played at least in 1923. It is the screenplay that The Fighting Coward is (apparently directly) based on. I've searched all over the Internet and I can't find the original script, as a scan or even to buy anywhere, or to find in a library. Anyone have any extra ideas as to where any surviving copies of the script might be? Or is it just a lost screenplay? That'd be pretty unfortunate if it is. It is absolutely vital to find this script, so I can transcribe it for Wikisource and link to it from The Fighting Coward's page. PseudoSkull (talk) 18:30, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: I can't see the whole of that work, could you poke it into https://bub2.toolforge.org?

Unhelpful aside: Princeton has a redonkulous amount of Tarkington papers: http://dla.library.upenn.edu/dla/pacscl/ead.pdf?id=PACSCL_PRIN_MUDD_C0062USNjP (281 boxes, 132 shelf-feet). Inductiveload—talk/contribs 19:26, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Looks like they have what I'm looking for, the play Magnolia in "10 folders"! Any idea how I could get a scan of it from Princeton? PseudoSkull (talk) 19:48, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

No idea, a nice chat with an librarian, perhaps? According to https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/26403280.pdf, it was never published except as a promptbook (and it was also called Kunnel Blake at some point). A Princeton library bod might know if that promptbook exists within those folders. The catalog entry is https://findingaids.princeton.edu/collections/C0062/c00416. They do have a process for digitization, but no idea if they'd be nice enough to do it for outsiders. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 19:54, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Now that I think about it, there are probably so many rare things that they have, that are in the PD, that they haven't digitized yet. I'd really rather they just digitize everything (that they can) including this, than to just digitize this one screenplay upon my request and leave the rest of their only-copy-in-existence items to rot in a cellar. But that's not my decision, and there's no particular reason for me to say those things except to vent...

Sure, I'll contact them sometime later, as this play actually influenced at least 4 films, one of them being The Fighting Coward, then a 1929 sound film also directly based on it, a 1935 film loosely based on it, and the 1935 film also called The Fighting Coward (presumably this one is a remake of the 1924 film, but can't be sure since I haven't seen it), so it has a historical significance in terms of movies based on it. The latter three of these films aren't public domain and won't be for quite a few years, but the original play still is PD, presumably, if it counts as something that was published in 1923, or 1904 if that detail commonly listed on websites has been correct. If it was an "unpublished" work we may unfortunately have to wait a few decades before the screenplay can be uploaded to Commons, on the basis of it being unpublished. PseudoSkull (talk) 21:44, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I presume (baselessly and charitably) that they do not have the resources assigned to digitise millions of documents, so they do it on an ad-hoc basic as demanded by students and staff and may or may not have a systematic process grinding away at the backlog in the background.

As long as it was eventually published after 2002, since Tarkington died >70 years ago, I think it's PD in the US (I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong). Inductiveload—talk/contribs 21:49, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

PseudoSkull, were the 1929 and 1935 films that you mentioned also entitled The Fighting Coward? TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 22:08, 15 December 2020 (UTC).

@TE(æ)A,ea.: Films I was referring to, in respective order:

1. The Fighting Coward (1924), directly based on Magnolia, public domain and we already have it archived and transcribed. That went public domain just this year (2020), unless the copyright was not renewed beforehand.
2. River of Romance (1929), a sound film also directly based on Magnolia so with basically the same premise and characters as The Fighting Coward (1924), as I could determine from what I've read.
3. Mississippi (1935), loosely based on Magnolia so with different characters.
4. The Fighting Coward (1935), I was wrong and memory did not serve me well. This is actually a crime film and a COMPLETELY different movie.

I plan to transcribe all of these when the time comes. PseudoSkull (talk) 23:04, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I checked for renewals; both River of Romance and Mississippi were renewed, but the 1935 Fighting Coward was not, if you’re still interested in transcribing it. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 23:30, 15 December 2020 (UTC).

So I did a bit of research and found what I found before, that I mistakenly thought was a copyright record for the film, this. The author, as Hugh Owens, was Frederick Faust, a writer of Western short stories. So apparently this "The Fighting Coward" is a short story by this author, and the movie from the same year called The Fighting Coward must be directly based on that...? If so, then the movie itself is in the public domain, but the poem/short story it's based on is not, till 2031. PseudoSkull (talk) 00:54, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, the film may be in the public domain, but I can't find a single copy of it anywhere. It is practically a lost film. There was one site that listed it for $15, but says it is "not available yet" and only allows you to backorder it for when it does get in their possession...maybe...possibly...ever... PseudoSkull (talk) 01:25, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

The film may not be public domain, actually; I checked the records assuming a copyright date of 1935, when in fact it was copyrighted in 1936. I will check now for records under the later date. I have found the registration for the film, which states: “Fighting coward; [by Peter B. Kyne], adapted from the story The last assignment, screen play by Al Martin, directed by Dan Milner. 6 reels. © Feb. 25, 1936; 2 c. and description Feb. 25; L 6155; Victory pictures corp., New York.” TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 01:57, 16 December 2020 (UTC).

It was not renewed. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 02:00, 16 December 2020 (UTC).

Note that works that aren't renewed may still be fundamentally covered by a work that was renewed that they are derivative of.--Prosfilaes (talk) 07:47, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Picture not visible in a page

Does this image render?

I added a picture to a page, but the picture does not show anywhere in the page. May I ask what the problem is? --Jan Kameníček (talk) 16:06, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Very strange. File:Holding forth the word of life to more people.jpg isn't showing even on its own file page. I tried viewing it on Wikipedia and Wiktionary as well with the same result, so it's not just us. It is failing to transmit from Wikimedia Commons. It is beyond me what could be causing this bug. PseudoSkull (talk) 16:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek, @PseudoSkull: It's showing up for me now. Perhaps a transient problem? --Xover (talk) 19:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: I still cannot see it, not even after purging the cache :-( I can see it only in Commons. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 19:19, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: Could you try it in a different web browser, and when logged out? --Xover (talk) 19:47, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Xover:It is getting even stranger. I cannot see the picture in Chrome, either logged in or logged out. So I tried it in Firefox and surprisingly here I could see the picture prior to logging in. However, the picture disappeared after I logged in, and did not appear even after I logged out again :-( Really weird behaviour. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 19:58, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: Does the image display at this link? Have you enabled any Gadgets or user scripts recently? --Xover (talk) 20:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

For reference, the image works fine in all variants in Safari 14, Chrome 87, Vivaldi 3.5, and Firefox 83 (all on macOS). Does it display here in this thread? --Xover (talk) 20:24, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: The image displays in the provided link well. I have not enabled any Gadget or user script recently. The image in this thread does not display to me. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 20:28, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, more exactly, I enabled your OCR gadget about a month ago, but I doubt it has any effect of this kind. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 20:31, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I disabled the gadget without any effect. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 20:38, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

What I do not understand is why some users including me and PseudoSkull should have a problem with this particular picture, while not experiencing any problems with other pictures. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 20:36, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: Hmm. That you can see it at the direct link means it's not a corrupted image file. That it fails to display in multiple different web browsers means it's probably not a browser bug. That you did see the image before logging in, but it stopped showing when you did log, suggests it is related to something unique to your user profile: typically this would be Gadgets, user scripts, and user stylesheets. It could also be skin related, but mostly if you're using an oddball skin (like monobook or Timeless; it's unlikely if you're using Vector). That it didn't start showing up again when you logged out suggests that whatever is going on is affecting your web browser cache. I assume this doesn't affect any other images? Do you see anything in your JavaScript console? Does holding down the Shift key and clicking the reload button make any difference (it bypasses the web browser cache)?

I agree that it is very strange, and I am out of ideas for what may be the cause of it. --Xover (talk) 20:52, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: Yes, I am using Vector. No, I haven’t observed any other images being affected by this, although I cannot be absolutely sure (if it affected an image about whose presence on a page I would not know, I would not notice it as the image would not display). Shift + reload did not help. I know nothing about JavaScript console, where exactly shall I look? --Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:08, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: I believe the keyboard shortcut is Ctrl-Shift-J in both Firefox and Chrome. --Xover (talk) 21:37, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: When I press Ctrl-Shift-J in Chrome while this Scriptorim page is on, I receive the following:

130px-Czechoslovak_Baptist_Preachers_in_Prison_Advert.jpg:1 Failed to load resource: net::ERR_BLOCKED_BY_CLIENT

load.php?lang=en&modules=jquery&skin=vector&version=tqh7e:144 JQMIGRATE: Migrate is installed with logging active, version 3.1.0

VM29:401 This page is using the deprecated ResourceLoader module "jquery.throttle-debounce".

Please use OO.ui.throttle/debounce instead. See https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T213426

When I press the shortcut while File:Holding forth the word of life to more people.jpg is on, then I get

GET https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Czechoslovak_Baptist_Preachers_in_Prison_Advert.jpg net::ERR_BLOCKED_BY_CLIENT File:Holding forth the word of life to more people.jpg:149

GET https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Czechoslovak_Baptist_Preachers_in_Prison_Advert.jpg/109px-Czechoslovak_Baptist_Preachers_in_Prison_Advert.jpg net::ERR_BLOCKED_BY_CLIENT

load.php?lang=en&modules=jquery&skin=vector&version=tqh7e:144 JQMIGRATE: Migrate is installed with logging active, version 3.1.0

--Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:52, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: The ERR_BLOCKED_BY_CLIENT stuff indicates it's getting blocked by a browser extension, most likely an ad blocker. It could conceivably a different kind of browser extension or antivirus, but an ad blocker is the usual suspect. These have very complex pattern-based rules that relatively often misfire (false positives) and are updated frequently. Your best bet is probably to whitelist the various Wikisource domain names (*.wikisource.org, *.wikimedia.org, *.wikipedia.org, etc.). @PseudoSkull: You may want to check if this is the case for you as well. --Xover (talk) 22:18, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

It was working for me until I updated my uBlock Origin lists today. The EasyList rule _advert. is matching the image URL (the "_Advert.jpg" bit, specifically). Inductiveload—talk/contribs 22:26, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: Yes! You have hit the bullseye! Thanks very much for all the effort. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 22:28, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Inductiveload: Yes, that sounds logical, renaming the picture would probably solve it. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 22:41, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek, @PseudoSkull: It is generally not a good idea to rename (or name) images based on what a random ad blocker is doing. First of all the current situation is a bug that should be fixed in the ad blocker. But perhaps more importantly, this will happen again at random intervals and we can't keep renaming images every time it happens. If you go into your ad blocker's rules and scan the list of things it's triggering off you'd think you were looking at a random selection from the dictionary. There is no safe subset of words or strings we could limit image names to that would not sooner or later get hit by this problem. None. Debugging this kind of stuff over the years I've run across not only things like "_ad", but even "topaz" and "shake" (probably names of or paths used inside some semi-popular ad-serving javascript library).

For WMF hosted wikis, where we have decent assurances that adware and tracking won't be a problem, the solution is simple: whitelist the WMF sites so the ad blocker will not affect anything there. On the rest of the net we'll just have to live with the issue until regulators eventually step in to prevent the sleazy practices that make ad blockers necessary in the first place.

PS. Those interested may want to take a look at what Apple is doing in Safari. Instead of string matching they're observing the behaviour of components in websites to determine whether this is likely to be something sleazy or not. It's roughly analogous to antivirus software that looks for suspicious behaviour to catch unknown viruses instead of relying on simple signatures of previously known viruses. It doesn't currently catch nearly the same number of things, so I run an ad blocker in addition, but it also has zero false positives like this so far. --Xover (talk) 08:53, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Renamed the file as requested. There's nothing in Commons' policy prohibiting this rename. (though I guess there's also nothing in Commons' policy prohibiting the inaction to this rename...) Pandakekok9 (talk) 11:27, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Turning off AdBlock Plus worked for me. But yes, I suppose it is generally a good idea not to include keywords in image names that are commonly blacklisted by adblockers. PseudoSkull (talk) 04:25, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: Yes, you are right about turning the ad blocker off and of course that was the first thing I did. I requested renaming the image in addition to that because the original name could cause problems to more users, not just me. This case gave me a lecture I should choose a file’s name more carefully next time (although you are probably right that there is no safe subset of words for files’ names). --Jan Kameníček (talk) 12:26, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Self-publishing books (NOT on Wikisource)

I am aware already that books can't be self-published here on Wikisource in the mainspace (and I am not contesting that; it absolutely should be that way), so this question has nothing to do with Wikisource, but I just thought you guys might have an answer for me to this. I am in the process of writing a few books myself, but I am fundamentally opposed to the very concept of copyright and believe that copyright is immoral and an abridgment of inalienable personal freedoms (I put a rant about that recently on my user page if you want the details). But I don't imagine many publishers would actually allow you to publish your book through them without it being in some way copyrighted. One of those publishers might quite literally inquire if I was crazy, for not wanting to copyright it...at least I imagine that to be the reaction anyway. So what is a good venue, on the Internet or otherwise, for publishing e-books or physical books, with a public-domain license? PseudoSkull (talk) 06:14, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: I have no experience with the project, but textbooks, manuals, and other instructional texts can be hosted at Wikibooks, see the Inclusion Criteria at b:Using Wikibooks/What Is Wikibooks. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 19:10, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

The Surakarta transclusion issue

The two [ToC] links are showing as one on top of the other, acting like the "CONTENTS" title is one page on its own and the actual TOC is all one page. The two [ToC] links show as one directly on top of the other. Does anyone know how to fix this? I've been trying fixes to this problem for far too long. PseudoSkull (talk) 20:14, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I guess it is because of the templates {{TOC begin}} (used at Page:The Surakarta (1913).djvu/11) and {{TOC end}} (at Page:The Surakarta (1913).djvu/12) which make the ToC to be one block and PageNumbers probably is not able to locate the division between the pages in the middle of this block. Inductiveload has been working with PageNumbers recently. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 20:29, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

It is indeed because of {{TOC begin}} (though it's actually a manifestation of a general issue with tables crossing page breaks), but the reason is not because I've messed with the page numbering. It's actually a problem that's been going on for a while, doesn't really have a great solution and is explained at Template talk:TOC begin and phab:T232477. Inductiveload—talk/contribs 20:58, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Bad Wurzach /* Bemerkenswerte Personen */ Johannes Ruez

Hallo zusammen,

habe einen Artikel in der Sandbox geschrieben und jetzt möchte ich ihn mit einer anderen Seite verlinken. Wie gehe ich da bitte vor. Johannes Ruez ist rot unterlegt aber ich krieg den Link nicht hin. Wahrscheinlich ne Kleinigkeit für die die sich auskennen.

Vielen Dank! —unsigned comment by Friedrich Räth (talk) .

@Friedrich Räth: Hello. I am afraid several things got confused:

1. This is Wikisource, while you have probably wanted to talk about an article for Wikipedia.
2. The article in your sandbox is located in English Wikipedia, but it is written in German and so it is probably meant for German Wikipedia.

My German is not good enough so I did not really understand what problem with some link you need to solve. However, to discuss things related to English Wikipedia, you should try w:Wikipedia:Village pump. To discuss things related to German Wikipedia I suggest to visit de:w:Wikipedia:Projektdiskussion. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 15:28, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

OK vielen Dank, habe ich verwechselt, mache später weiter. OK thank you, I mixed it up, I'll go on later.

Errors in the text. Policy?

Re the table of contents of Anne of Green Gables:

I changed the table of contents to match what's in the image. There's an error in the text. The name is 'Rachel' in the body of the novel, but 'Rachael' in the Table of Contents. Have I done the right thing? I changed the TOC from 'Rachel' to 'Rachael'. John O'Hanley (talk) 00:00, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

@John O'Hanley: Yes, that was definitely the right thing to do. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 00:12, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Multiple works on the same topic

I have recently transcribed four works about the forger, William Booth. He is not known to have ever published anything, so does not require an 'Author:' page. How can I group the works together? Would Wikisource policy support a category, or a portal page? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 08:02, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Wikisource:Portal guidelines suggests that a portal would be appropriate. Moreover, person-based categories are generally not used here. BethNaught (talk) 08:12, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing: definitely portal, you can use either {{person}} or {{portal header}}. Categorise to category:People in portal namespace. We would also link that portal to the person item in WD. — billinghurst sDrewth 23:17, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Done. Why doesn't {{person}} automatically apply category:People in portal namespace? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:06, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Probably just hasn't had the focus as they were developed separately. {{person}} desperately needs to be converted to be Wikidata native as default. — billinghurst sDrewth 01:23, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Anchors for Sidenotes...

@Xover:,@Billinghurst:,@Inductiveload:

Affected templates: {{left sidenote}} {{right sidenote}} {{LR sidenote}} {{RL sidenote}}

Page:Ruffhead - The Statutes at Large - vol 2.djvu/52 has sidenotes, and these can be associated with a particular section of the text. whilst I could add {{anchor}}, it would be sensible if these could be added from the sidenotes templates directly, so as to limit the amount of Templates needed in a long work.

The fix would be to do something like:

  <span {{if:{{{@|{{{anchor}}}|}}|{{{@|{{{anchor}}}|}} ....

in the relevant templates, so that the x.y style numbering suggested previously could be included directly, for this and other works using this template family. —unsigned comment by ShakespeareFan00 (talk) . 05:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)